CINEFRAME - How does it work?

[recon007jf]

Does anyone know how the Cineframe mode on the pro model actually works? Does it look as good as true 24p on the DVX?

[Barry_Green]

The pro model's not out yet, so we have no idea whether it's any different than the FX1's mode.

Preliminary reports of CineFrame 24 are not encouraging, but I haven't spent enough time with it to make up my mind yet.

[redbaron_ict]

I've looked at the captures off of hdvinfo.net and one of the captures is of the 24p 'cineframe' mode. I loaded it onto a Vegas Timeline at 1280i to look at the interlace. AND... it looks to do 24P just like the DVX does. It captures 24 progressive frames and lays them down in interlace via 3:2 pulldown in camera. This is to comply with the HDV spec. Though as I was stepping forward, on the timeline, I get 3 'full' frames and then 2 interlaced frames. If vegas can get an import filter like they have for the DVX, turning 3:2 pulldown into 24p frames, I think we might have our 'Holy Grrrrrrail'

I think everyone is getting hung up about what is and isn't 24p. The DVX captures 24p but records 60i. The sony seems to do the same. The just don't call it full 24P like their other $$$ cameras.

[redbaron_ict]

One other thing I might add is the flexibility of always shooting 60i:
For me 720p is what I am interested in for right now. I am making enhanced DVDs with SD NTSC DVD video plus a bonus DVD-ROM section with the same footage at 720P using Windows Media 9 .WMV files.

Deinterlacing and downscaling 1280i looks really good on a Vegas timeline, plus I have the flexibility of using slowmotion anywhere on the timeline without losing resolution. 60i to 24p Yields more than 50% slow motion effect by interpolating the interlace lines and playing the motion back on a 24p timeline.

[Neil Rowe]

I've looked at the captures off of hdvinfo.net and one of the captures is of the 24p 'cineframe' mode. I loaded it onto a Vegas Timeline at 1280i to look at the interlace. AND... it looks to do 24P just like the DVX does. It captures 24 progressive frames and lays them down in interlace via 3:2 pulldown in camera. This is to comply with the HDV spec. Though as I was stepping forward, on the timeline, I get 3 'full' frames and then 2 interlaced frames. If vegas can get an import filter like they have for the DVX, turning 3:2 pulldown into 24p frames, I think we might have our 'Holy Grrrrrrail'

I think everyone is getting hung up about what is and isn't 24p. The DVX captures 24p but records 60i. The sony seems to do the same. The just don't call it full 24P like their other $$$ cameras.


would be really nice if it was progressive at all, or had the ability to aquire images at 24fps, but it does not. its a great cam, but its just not those things.

[redbaron_ict]

would be really nice if it was progressive at all, or had the ability to aquire images at 24fps, but it does not. its a great cam, but its just not those things.

What are you basing this on. What is the resolution lost from capturing 2 interlaced frames at the same moment 'frame' in time as opposed to a 'progressive' ccd capturing the whole frame in the same moment in time. Both are writing the same resolution discretely to the buffer and then to the encoder.

I'll let you in on a secret... no ccd captures every pixel at the same time. They are held in buffer until released to the A/D decoder. Some CCDS do this in rows ' not to be confused with interlace' , quadrants, or individual pixels depending on the buffer and encoder. Granted this happens very fast, but still the logic must be in place on the chipset to account for this delay in capturing.

[Neil Rowe]

...lets not grasp at straws with the whole ccd operation thing here.. film isnt captured true progressive either by those standards.

..im not sure why your asking me to prove my statements. i think its you who are left with the burden of proof as you are claiming that a non-progressive or 24fps scanning camera in fact shoots 24p, when sony themselves have said it does not. your also alluding to the camera capturing images in its "cineframe" mode differently than what SONY and other independent reviews have described. although you may be heavily inclined to defend your assumption of the cameras operation against my statements. if you would like to learn about the cameras operation, I would point you in the direction of the multitude of information currently available on the cameras operation both here, and at other inernet and printed rescources. im not trying to knock you off your cloud or anything by saying its not 24p. I really like what this camera has to offere, and i love what ive seen from it so far. but if your making a purchasing decision *it wouldbe best to be factually informed if 24p is a factor in the purchase decision.

[Barry_Green]

The Sony's do not shoot 24P, nor do they capture the frame 24 times per second.

They shoot 60i, and perform an in-camera "filmlook" or "magic bullet"-type simulation of 24P. *They then record that to tape as 3:2 pulldown video.

I've only played with CineFrame 24 a little, and wasn't all that impressed. *I haven't heard of anyone yet who's examined CineFrame 24 who describes it positively.

[Neil Rowe]

..you know even with its lack of true 24p capability , im awed by what ive seen from this camera so far with the images it can produce, and i'll openly admit that im really anxious for you to get you hands on the pro version Barry. i took a look at some of the screen grabs from it the other day, and i started gettng the same feeeling i had when i was introduced to the imagery of the DVX. the dynamic range , gamma, and highlight handling all just look gorgeous in the samples ive seen. .. and the resolution! wow.. is just nothing short of amazing. im very very very eager for the day someone makes one of these with 24p.

[redbaron_ict]

DIdn't mean to sound like a prophet or Sony Sales agent. The problem with forums is the implied tone in written messages. I am not expecting a defense of statments just clarity. Maybe this will help me. Does the camera allow for a shutter speed of 24 or 48?

I do understand the difference between capturing 60i and then writing 24p via 3:2 pulldown to 60i.

The DVX100 caputures a full frame of information at 24p and then records to 60i via 3:2 pulldown via 3232 or 2332 cadence.

My question, and I am no expert here, is if the sony is indeed capturing at 60i and then writing a full res image off the ccd from both scan lines at 1/24 of a second to the tape with 3:2 pulldown, or is it blending the fields for every 1/24 of a second thus halving the true resolution.

[Barry_Green]

There are no shutter speeds slower than 1/60 when shooting*cineframe 24.

Yes there's a significant drop in resolution. *It's very easy to see the resolution drop even when viewing it downrezzed at s-video or composite video -- CineFrame 30 looks sharp, CineFrame 24 looks much softer.

It is blending the fields together to create a simulation of 24p, at the expense of resolution and also at the expense of true 1/24 time simulation -- i.e., the motion doesn't match what it would have had it been shot at 24fps.

[redbaron_ict]

Thank you Barry.

That pretty much answers my questions. I will admit I was blinded from the facts a little for a faint glimmer of hope.

But I think even though it doesn't have 24P, and considering the in camera 'effect' of 24p is lacking, it would be interesting to see what the results of an offline conversion via DFfilm or other conversion processes would yield. Certainly the resolution is high enough to play with.

[Barry_Green]

Marcus at DVFILM has updated the Maker program to support HDV resolution, so you can test the results for yourself. That'd make an interesting test, actually: cineframe 24 vs. 60i converted to 24 by Maker...

[Antoine_Fabi]

Wouldn't it be nice if it worked with DVFilm !

[redbaron_ict]

One more question. IS the Z1's 25p 'progressive' real or fake like the cineframe 24p?

[Kidster]

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1100671337;start=0#10 date=11/17/04 at 14:18:25]There are no shutter speeds slower than 1/60 when shooting cineframe 24.

I think this is precisely the reason the FX1 CF24 mode looks very strobe like.

From Sony's Power Point presenetation it states there is two modes of CF 24 on the Z1 (PRO). Perhaps one of those modes will allow to set the shutter a lower speeds like the ideal 1/48. Should be a very nice image in CF 24 if this is the case.

[Barry_Green]

Wouldn't it be nice if it worked with DVFilm !
According to Marcus, it does.

[Barry_Green]

One more question. IS the Z1's 25p 'progressive' *real or fake like the cineframe 24p?
ALL "progressive" modes on the Sony are fake. On the FX1, on the Z1, at 24 or 25 or 30, doesn't matter: they're all "fake" because the Sony HDV cameras CANNOT shoot progressive-scan of any type.

[Antoine_Fabi]

"According to Marcus, it does." dixit Barry Green.

...then...what do you think ?
...do you think it will keep exellent resolution ?

[Barry_Green]

Haven't had a chance to experiment with it yet.

Spent some time with the FX1, and CineFrame 30 looks great, CineFrame 24 loses a *lot* of resolution. But to be fair, it's trying to do in real-time what Magic Bullet takes a *long time* to do. So once the guy with the FX1 gets back from vacation, I'll see if we can run some more controlled tests.

[Anhar_Miah]

Barry, i've tried the demo version of DVfilm on miniDV and IMHO i foumd that TMPgenc does a better job of de-interlacing than DVfilm, anyho just my opinion! perhaps the HDV version will be better.

[Antoine_Fabi]

*"So once the guy with the FX1 gets back from vacation, I'll see if we can run some more controlled tests. " dixit Barry Green


exellent !
really appreciated ! thanks.

[dvpixl]

its all fake?
is pana the only cam that shoots real progressive now? SWEET!

or XL-2 is real progressive right? eh..

[Barry_Green]

The XL2 is also genuine progressive at 24p and 30p.

The PD170 shoots genuine progressive at 15 fps.

[zenbarai]

So I suppose the real question is...

Does the Z1's 60i, run thru Magic Bullet or its competitors, generate enough of a film-like image to be a viable, higher-res alternative to the DVX for indie filmmakers?

Especially if hooked up to a Reel Stream system?
http://www.reel-stream.com/

Any educated guesses at this premature time?

[Barry_Green]

You shouldn't have to guess, you should be able to run the test yourself using dvfilm or magic bullet.

We plan on conducting this exact test later this month.

[Hayden_Rivers]

That's definetly the question. I look forward to the tests over the next few weeks. I hope we'll all be very impressed.

[Policar]

Doesn't the PAL version shoot cineframe 25? If so, it probably uses the same algorithm as cineframe 30, and it probably keeps a lot of resolution. Once some NLEs come out that can turn 25fps HDV into 24fps HDV I think that would be the best option for cheap digital "film making."

[Guest]

"Does the Z1's 60i, run thru Magic Bullet or its competitors, generate enough of a film-like image to be a viable, higher-res alternative to the DVX for indie filmmakers?"


Well, considering all the features that were made with much worse cameras, I would say the answer is YES. I look for quite a few features shot with this cam at Sundance '06.