New HVR-Z1U Reviews

[Rogue Crew]

An interesting review of the new HVR-Z1U, HDVCR and monitor is on the Digital Video Editing web site.

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=29230

And the Video Systems review by Steve Mullen is here:

http://www.videosystems.com/e-newsletters/HDVWork_Nov_29/#1

[Barry_Green]

Yeah, I'd seen those reviews before. The one by Charlie White surprised me, because he praises the 24fps look of CineFrame 24.

Well, he sure wasn't looking at what I'm looking at. I need to do more testing with it, but ... to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, "I know 24P. 24P is a friend of mine. And you, CineFrame, are no 24P."

But, more testing is in order. Charlie's review led to rampant speculation that maybe the CF24 mode in the Z1 is somehow different than the mode in the FX1, because I can't see how someone would praise the FX1's CF24, much less put it in the same class as 24P, and certainly never think it was better than 24P.

Maybe the FX1 and the Z1 implement it differently. Or maybe Sony showed some carefully-constructed demos that don't show what CF24 does in the "real world", some specially-controlled circumstances that made it look good.

[Rogue Crew]

Well, he sure wasn't looking at what I'm looking at. I need to do more testing with it, but ... to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, "I know 24P. 24P is a friend of mine. And you, CineFrame, are no 24P."

Yeah, I noticed that too, and all I have had to go on are some remarks from folks here that have gotten their hands on the FX1.

I read it again - he says,

"Notice that it’s not actually able to shoot in 24p, but then this is not a bad thing at all. In fact, Sony could have fudged and called it 24p, because the result is the same. Sony has tucked electronics inside that give you progressive footage that’s shot at 24 frames per second, using interpolation that looks as good or better than any 24p. So don’t let that 24p buzzword get to you – this baby can give you that 24-frame film look and then some. The result to these trained eyes is some great-looking, smoothly cadenced 24-frame footage that looks exactly like 24p if not better. Bravo, Sony ."

That's pretty strong stuff from a pro, so I tend to agree with you Barry. You guys are not looking at the same output. Do you know White? Maybe you could email him and get some clarification, because if you forgot to hold down the widget while pushing the framistat and it really can produce great 24f, well.......

Mullen's article ends with,

"In the next newsletter, we’ll look at the CineFrame modes offered by the camcorders."

So I'll post again as soon as I get that email newsletter.

[Barry_Green]

I don't know Mr. White. *But I do know a few things about CineFrame 24, as employed on the FX1. *I've looked at enough of it to say that it has serious problems, and is utterly and completely unlike 24P. *I've seen footage shot in CF24 that was so unusable as to be flat-out laughable. *I cannot begin to express my disappointment.

But, I didn't shoot that footage, and I can't guarantee that the shooter didn't do something wrong -- because, seriously, it looked like he *must* have done something wrong, it looked so bad. *But, having played with the camera extensively for a couple of days now, I can't see what he would have done that was wrong -- it's pretty much either in CF24 or not, there's not a lot of options. *There's an option for "flicker reduction", but now that I think about it, I can't remember if that's a DV-only option.

(oh, and to answer two questions that have been asked repeatedly, YES the FX1 shoots 16:9 and 4:3 in DV mode, and YES the CineFrame options work in DV mode).

We shot some good motion stuff in CF24 today, but I haven't had a chance to review it yet on a monitor, and certainly haven't had a chance to split-screen it against genuine 24P from the XL2 and DVX (we shot all three side-by-side today). *So we'll be doing some split-screens later. *Right now we're still gathering footage, haven't gotten to the analysis stage.

However, I have shot CF24 on static shots (resolution charts, color charts, etc) and the effect is absurd -- it pulses and flickers and grinds on even still shots... I was not impressed. *It is not good.

Again, I haven't seen the footage that Charlie White saw. *And, again, until Sony makes a definitive statement one way or the other about whether CF24 is implemented identically in the FX1 and the Z1, there will still be speculation as to whether there's something different about the Z1's CF24 mode. *From the footage I've viewed so far, there had better be...

[Antoine_Fabi]

That was exactly my question...

Barry, could you run a test shooting a res chart in 1080i and then convert it to 24p with DVFILM and MagicBullet to see exactly how much res is left in the process ?

I'm waiting for this test before i order this camcorder.


oh...and what is your opinion about color sampling (positioning and rendition) ?

thanks

If it's not good, then maybe i'll wait for the new Panasonic, wich is supposed (rumours) to be released by march or april.

[Guest]

Could the Z! be operating at 48hz while the FX only does 60 in 24 cf?


Steve

[Barry_Green]

Barry, could you run a test shooting a res chart in 1080i and then convert it to 24p with DVFILM and MagicBullet to see exactly how much res is left in the process ?

I'm waiting for this test before i order this camcorder.

I have 1080i res charts, as well as CineFrame 24 and Cineframe 30 charts. It is my intention to DVFILM the footage as well, although I don't have a version of MB that supports high-def resolution, so someone else would have to do that. I only have the freebie "Magic Bullet Movie Looks", you'd need the full $1000 version for doing 24p conversions.

oh...and what is your opinion about color sampling (positioning and rendition) ?

Haven't gotten that far yet. Still shooting, no post review yet.

If it's not good, then maybe i'll wait for the new Panasonic, wich is supposed (rumours) to be released by march or april.
If you think Panasonic is going to announce something soon, it'd be silly to settle for the FX1 or even the Z1 until you know what all the players in the game intend. I have no idea if/when Panasonic would announce a competitor, but I'd be very interested to see one if they choose to do so. The FX1 is not a bad camera, but it is first, foremost, and only an interlaced camera. If you like interlaced video, it's the camera for you. If you don't like interlaced video, why try to hack-job it when something that you do like may be coming soon? Is there an overwhelming need to buy right now? If not, how do you lose by waiting?

The Z1 comes out in February. NAB is in April, where announcements typically get made (at least the DVX was announced at NAB, but actually that doesn't always hold true, because neither the FX1, XL2, and DVX100A were announced at NAB, so... never mind. NAB is merely one place where an announcement *could* be made, I guess is a better/more accurate way of saying it.)

[Rogue Crew]

Since Apple and Panasonic have formed a partnership for developing HD products, I suppose it's not beyond reason to suggest that the MacWorld Expo in January might be the place for an announcement.

[John_Q]

Since Apple and Panasonic have formed a partnership for developing HD products, I suppose it's not beyond reason to suggest that the MacWorld Expo in January might be the place for an announcement.

interesting hypothesis, but I doubt it.

[taubkin]

The one by Charlie White surprised me, because he praises the 24fps look of CineFrame 24.


I don't like Charlie White's journalism, and from that essay we can realy see why. It's not a review. It's a report of a product demo. In fact, in his column, he praises a Sony new tape wich he obvioulsy never used, so I can assume the rest of the essay is a pure copy/paste of the Press Release as well.

I have nothing aggainst the new sony, but I do hate biased stories that are obviously being paid in advertisement. Get a press release, and try to find something he said about the new products that aren't there.

That's why I'll wait for the DVXUser showdown...

[Gromit]

A quick question:


I´m looking to buy a DVCam, and was woddering if both the Sony Z1U & FX1 shoot in PAL?

... Or should I stick to the Panasonic DVX 100AE (PAL) model?

Best regards,
Gromit

[alpi69]

woah gromit...quite some stuff packed into one question.

it depends on what money you have and what your outputformat will be.

DVX: available as PAL version; SD recorded onto DV; audio uncompressed
FX1: available as PAL version, shoots SD and HDV recording on same miniDV tapes; HDV has higher resolution, but inferior audio; HDV is 16:9 only; HDV needs a bigger editing system and basically nothing really works yet; the camera needs many professional tools
Z1: PAL and NTSC in one cam; SD and HDV; many features that are missing in the FX1 are here, but it costs over €5000 and is not available before february

to be honest: if you look for a cam now: get the DVX; if you need a cam sometime soon: wait until march to see what the opponents do and how the Z1 comes out. as long as their is no real output solution for the HDV stuff it is pure experimentation....

[Barry_Green]

Good summary.

Yes the FX1/European model and the Z1 will shoot PAL. However, there are substantial differences between the FX1 and the DVX (fewer differences between the Z1 and DVX) so before deciding between those cameras you should decide what features are important to you, and make sure that whatever camera you're getting does what you want/need.

[Antoine_Fabi]

1) I thought that HDV editing softwares already existed...No ?

If not , it could explain why Panasonic didn't announced any HD prosumer camcorder yet, they may be working on that right now and want to announce a complete "working" simple solution...?

Barry, why did you buy the Z1 ?
...I thought you were a "24p only" guy.
What is the advantage of the Z1 if you're going to DVD (SD) anyway ?

[shAi]

i always try not to step into those unavoidable discussions, this vs that etc. but just to contribute my point of view on choosing a camera -- we live in times where technology is developing fast enough, so we, shooters, might have to change gear once in each... 4-5 years, the most. what i'm saying is, even when running after the latest thing, whatever it may be, DV, HDV, HD, CDHDVVBL-whatever, if you are a cameraman with a little experience, pick up a camera and ask yourself if its fun and inspiring working with. do you trust this tool? does it make you shoot good footage?
i picked up the DVX 1.5 years ago and felt inspired, like.. i want to shoot with this camera all day long, because it simply made good footage out of the box.
now, i saw the new Z1 on a Sony road-show here in Berlin and was simply not inspired. if i didn't have the DVX or yet wouldn't know if it's existent, i would probably think.. "hmm.. sweet solid camera, i wish i had one", and even now, if i had spare 5000 euro, i would be happy to get one and dedicate it to my more TV oriented jobs while keep doing the real thing with the DVX.
the DVX was the first time i felt that a camera was made for me, a cameraman, like we've all been shooting with pd-150 for years and loved it, but always said "why couldn't they put more of a pro attitude into it", we all knew that sony just won't make it too pro, cos they monopolize the market with a massive line of products and broadcast standards..

someone here said, "DVX got the mojo", i could sign on this phrase too.. *
*

[Barry_Green]

1) I thought that HDV editing softwares already existed...No ?
You can edit HDV now, but not as a comprehensive package quite like DV is. That should change soon.

If not , it could explain why Panasonic didn't announced any HD prosumer camcorder yet, they may be working on that right now and want to announce a complete "working" simple solution...?
That could be, or maybe they don't even have an HD Prosumer camera on their development slate yet, or maybe they've already got one and they're going to spring it on us with no notice like they did the DVX100A. Nobody knows. But it took Canon three years to come out with the XL2, so if/when Panasonic responds is anyone's guess. However, if Sony's able to sell a tremendous amount of FX1's and Z1's, you can bet that'd influence Panasonic to introduce one.

Barry, why did you buy the Z1 ?
...I thought you were a "24p only" guy.
No, I'm a "whatever's great" guy. It sure looked awesome when it was introduced. And the Z1 lets you shoot CineFrame 25, which looks like it would be a great way to get to 24P.

However, with the price change and with my experiences with the FX1, I'm not sure I'll go through with the Z1 order.

What is the advantage of the Z1 if you're going to DVD (SD) anyway ?
I intend to answer that question once I have a chance to do some FX1 HDV->DVD transfers. If it looks better, well, the answer would be obvious. Testing will determine.

[Antoine_Fabi]

thanks

do you plan to do some FX1/DVD transfer testing soon ?

[hvpz]

And the Z1 lets you shoot CineFrame 25, which looks like it would be a great way to get to 24P.


Barry,

I've certainly missed something... but I don't see why the Z1 cineframe 25 will be better to achieve 24p than the Z1 cineframe 24 ?

And if I have understand, the cineframe mode do a real time blend of interlaced pictures to deliver the final picture.
Wouldn't be better to do it in post to allow more computing time with perhaps better algorithms to deliver better result or the "in-camera blending" mode remains a really better option ?

[Barry_Green]

thanks

do you plan to do some FX1/DVD transfer testing soon ?
It's coming...

[Barry_Green]

I've certainly missed something... but I don't see why the Z1 cineframe 25 will be better to achieve 24p than the Z1 cineframe 24 ?
If the Z1 implements Cineframe 24 the same way the FX1 does, then it'll be a night-and-day difference. *CineFrame 24, as implemented on the FX1, is useless. *It's nothing like film look, it's a weird field-mixing field-dropping system that looks completely wrong. *It looks like you're dropping frames on playback, except for some times when you get a double image. *It's useless.

CineFrame 30 on the FX1 is much better, it's more like frame mode: it provides the feel of 30p, although at a small resolution loss.

CineFrame 25 on the FX1/PAL version should be pretty good. Should be implemented exactly the same as CineFrame 30.

The Z1 is switchable between 50i and 60i, also PAL and NTSC. *So CineFrame 25 on the Z1 should look about as good as CineFrame 30 does, but playing at 25fps, which is a pretty easy conversion to 24fps.

Of course, if Panasonic or Canon or JVC would release a real 24P version, we could ignore all this post-mod hack job stuff and just do it right the first time!

Wouldn't be better to do it in post to allow more computing time with perhaps better algorithms to deliver better result or the "in-camera blending" mode remains a really better option ?
Almost certainly it would be better to do it in post, depending on how you compress the footage after. *If you're going back to HDV, that would mean two passes through the MPEG-2 codec (once when recording the interlaced image, then once again when you put it back out to tape). *MPEG-2 is a much lossier compression scheme than DV, and although I haven't run conclusive tests yet, I'm betting that DV holds up to recompression much, much, much better than HDV does.

Marcus and Graeme have both run 24P simulation tests using their programs, on HDV footage, and have both reported very satisfactory results. *I haven't yet tested that, but I'll get to it.

[hvpz]

Thanks a lot Barry for your explanation. :D
All is crystal clear, now.