Update to Sony HVR-Z1 Prices

[Rogue Crew]

From Video Systems Newsletter 12.2.04

Update to Sony HDV Prices
Tuesday's HDV @ Work reported the list price of Sony Business Solutions & Systems' new HDV camcorder, the HVR-Z1, as $4,900. The actual list price of the HVR-Z1 will be $5,946. (The previously reported price of $4,900 is the expected price for resellers.)

[Barry_Green]

DOH! :o

[SamEdwards]

Glad I went with the consumer model...
-Sam

[Shaw]

Ouch... now would be the time to save your money for a modded uncompressed (HD!) DVX!

[Guest]

It's just a trick I guess to force you to buy the FX1 now. BH is selling the FX1 under liste price.

[Shaw]

But I doubt they will sell the Z1 for a whole grand under the new price :P

[alpi69]

once panny comes out with their cam the Z1 will be 3900 ;D

[TimurCivan]

panny coming out wiith new camera????? oooo any idea of featurres?

[Barry_Green]

Nobody knows anything yet. But since Pansonic has introduced new models nearly every year, I think it's a safe bet that they will eventually introduce a new model. The questions are multiple:
1) when? Who knows.
2) will they join the HDV coalition or introduce their own format?
3) progressive-scan? This is almost surely a "yes", given the success of the DVX and the SDX, but hey, you never know until it's done...

So no, there's been no talk of any actual announcement, and the only thing Panasonic's even hinted at (that I know of) is that balsa-wood P2 mockup cam they showed a year ago. But, come on, they're a bazillion-dollar company with incredible R&D and they also listen to their customers, so obviously they will respond. Whether it'll be this year or next, that's the question. It took Canon three years to get around to releasing the XL2, but it only took Panasonic a year to release the 100A update, so -- well, as always, nobody knows. And if they do know, they're not talking.

[Antoine_Fabi]

yeah...who knows...

I think it would be logical for them to release a DVCProHD camcorder, because they already master this technique.
Plus, it would give them a big edge over HDV.
If they began to develop a HDV camcorder, then it will take too much time and Sony will establish the FX1 (Z1) as the new "standard".

...but...who knows...

[Barry_Green]

If they were to introduce a prosumer-priced camera that recorded DVCPRO-HD... man, that would be a huge advantage. All the existing networks that already have DVCPRO-HD... all the infrastructure that supports it... you're not talking about a new format, you're talking about an existing format... I wonder if that would be possible? If they could do that, that would be a significant advantage!

[xander76]

Barry Green, you might just get your DVCProHD wish.

According to pictures on a couple different websites, Panasonic displayed two different HD Palm cameras at InterBEE. One of them was labeled "HD-MPEG" and the other was labeled "DVCProHD".

http://www.scn-net.ne.jp/~tdcjapan/bee2004/BIG0294.JPG

There's a closeup of the DVCProHD version here:

http://www.geocities.jp/sumi653/P2HD.jpg

A few words of warning, though:

(1) We have no idea what the price point for these models might be; the DVCProHD model might not be sold at a prosumer price,
(2) At this point, they look like just identical mockups with slightly different lettering on them. The fact that they look so similar suggests to me that they haven't gotten far along the path to making them real. (OTOH, it could be that the models are identical externally except for recording format...), and
(3) As with all internet news/rumor reports, take everything with a big grain of salt.

[author]

Speculative but interesting... looks like they're doing the old "run a flag up the pole and see who salutes" thing.

--Ralph :D

[Barry_Green]

NOW THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!

Assumedly they showed the MPEG-2 version first, then when they played around with it and found the inherent problems, they decided to bite the bullet and make it full-fledged DVCPRO-HD.

Bring it on -- I for one will salute it! If it's a genuine implementation of DVCPRO-HD, with 24P, at a prosumer price point, HDV will be in some trouble.

If Panasonic gets this right, it will undoubtedly do well. And if they blow it, well, we can always fall back to the FX1/Z1 or stick with the DVX. Seems like we consumers are in a "can't lose" situation!

[Neil Rowe]

..so agreed. *the only thing that gets me is that if it is full fledged HD we will have to deal with the extra cost associated. but new technology my allow for "finishing quality" to come from some higly compressed codecs which keep the bitrate and storage down anyway.. who knows. either way its exciting to think about for now.

[David Jimerson]

Well, sure – but it would be a SEVERE disappointment if Panasonic did not include real 24p. Sony? Not a particular surprise. But Panasonic has set the bar for itself.

Under $5K? I’m already eyeing a few stocks I can dump . . .

[Barry_Green]

I'm already thinking of ebay-ing some of my lesser-used lighting gear. Maybe the Britek DayPhoto's will go up for auction, and my old fluorescent 4-banks, and... other stuff... ;D

[Antoine_Fabi]

First, DVCProHD in a prosumer camcorder is "MY" wish, not Barry's !
he he... OK ?
...I am sure i am the only one who wants that...:)

just remember, a few years ago, when Sony released low priced BetacamSP decks and camcorders...

...might be the same for DVCProHD...and we never know with P2 cards...
Panasonic is extremely silent...
No doubt in my mind...24p for sure. Their "trademark"...

Barry, when do you think you'll test the DVFilm software with the FX1 footage ? ....i am very curious.
thanks

[Barry_Green]

The problem with the DVFilm test is that there's no way to get footage back out to the camera, so I can't view it on an HD monitor. I can watch it on the computer monitor, but that's not a valid test. There's just no way to work with HDV footage yet (that I've found) and get it back to the camera. I'm open to suggestions! I've got access to an HD projection theater, but no way to get the footage there...

[Rogue Crew]

I'm already thinking of ebay-ing some of my lesser-used lighting gear. Maybe the Britek DayPhoto's will go up for auction, and my old fluorescent 4-banks, and... other stuff... ;D
I don't think you're serious, but if you ever were, you could "e-bay" it right here at DVXuser.

And while I'm on the line, could you explain the differences between the DVCProHD format and Sony's new offerings?

[Barry_Green]

I am serious, I want to raise some cash and I just recently spent a ton of cash with EVS, so yeah, I'll sell some stuff off.

As for DVCPRO-HD vs. HDV, I'm no expert on DVCPRO-HD, but I'll tell you what I (think I) know.

The by-far-most-important difference is that HDV uses a long-GOP form of compression. *DVCPRO-HD compresses each frame individually. *(GOP = "group of pictures")

In MPEG-2, much of its compression efficiency comes from recording only the differences between frames, and compressing that. *So they divide up the picture stream into groups of 15 frames, and they compress the first frame as a full frame, which could be reconstructed by itself, since all the data needed to recreate the frame is contained in the frame. *(This is the way every frame is recorded in DV, and also in DVCPRO-HD). *But in MPEG-2/HDV 1080i, only one out of 15 frames is recorded this way. *All subsequent frames in the group are based on the preceding frame, so only the changes between frames are recorded. *This makes for very efficient compression when large areas of the frame don't change... but when large areas of the frame DO change, like during a pan, then almost the entire frame will need to be recompressed, as opposed to just the changes. That eats up bandwidth, which HDV doesn't have a lot of, so it may run out of space and leave you with blurry compressed footage.

So in DVCPRO-HD and DV, it doesn't really matter much whether you're shooting a still frame or executing a wild pan -- the compression is going to have to recompress the whole frame no matter what.

But in HDV, if you're shooting a locked-down shot, you might get fantastic compression efficiency. *Like a resolution chart -- HDV *lives* to shoot things like resolution charts, because *nothing* changes between frames, so it gets extremely high efficiency. *However, it gets more efficiency as the GOP (group of pictures) goes along... it may not have enough information to record all of the picture in the first I-frame completely accurately (I-frames are the all-in-one compressed frames), so it'll use the second frame to clean up or fill in the gaps, and maybe the third one will pick up any slack that the second one missed, etc... so as time goes on, the picture will become clearer. *This is just like old web video used to be, remember?

Well, this can happen in HDV. *Let's say you're executing a pan across a forest -- the panned footage will be very heavily compressed with very little efficiency. *When you stop panning, the footage will become clear again -- but it may take up to 15 frames for it to finally, really "clear" up! *Whereas with DV or DVCPRO-HD, the frame will be instantaneously clear within one frame.

And, if there's a lot of high detail in the shot, it's possible that MPEG-2 could "pulse" a little... because each GOP starts over from scratch, if there's not enough bandwidth to resolve/compress the whole frame in the I-frame, it'll need the help of the subsequent frames to "clean up" the image... but after 15 frames, it has to start all over again. *So it's possible that you could get a continuous cycle of fuzzy-clearing-up-clear-fuzzy-clearing-up-clear going on, depending on how detailed the image is. *I didn't notice evidence of that, I'm just saying it's possible.

This is not quite as much an issue with HDV/720, because it uses GOP's of six frames rather than 15. *The same things may happen, but they'll happen a lot more frequently, which may mask the effect.

So efficiency and style of compression are major differences. *Then there comes the bandwidth allocation: HDV/720 uses only 19 megabits per second, and HDV/1080 uses only 25 megabits per second. *DVCPRO-HD uses 100 megabits per second. *So you have 4x to 5x the compression bandwidth, and no delta frames so every frame is always processed individually.

So let's explore what happens when you get a dropout. *For clarification, a "dropout" typically happens when the tape fails to properly record the digital data -- maybe a speck of dust on the tape obscures the magnetic media, or maybe a flake of magnetic media falls off the tape, whatever. *So the full frame gets written out, but a tiny portion of it fails to get recorded on tape. *So when you go to play that back, what happens?

In DV, the data blocks are all shuffled around the frame, so any time a dropout hits, the impact is spread around rather than concentrated in one big block. *So you might see tiny little 8x8 blocks of corrupted data on one frame, or on an especially bad dropout, maybe it will affect two frames.

I don't know how DVCPRO-HD handles dropouts, but I'd expect it to be the same -- a little fleck on a single frame.

In HDV, you're just flat-out screwed. *Because HDV requires that the entire group of 15 frames is derived from each other, from the changes in each other, if one gets corrupted they'd ALL get corrupted, and there's no way around it. *From my experience with HDV, it looks like there must be some error-checking on the entire GOP, because when a dropout hits, you lose the ENTIRE GOP. *The camera just freeze-frames for 15 full frames (i.e., half a second!) *It's awful. *And it would be devastating if it happened during a take that you need. *If you're familiar with a non-linear-editor dropping frames on playback, imagine it dropping 15 frames all at once -- that's what it looks like.

So DVCPRO-HD is a) an established HD standard, with cameras and decks and all manner of support equipment out there. *b) much wider bandwidth, 4x to 5x as much as HDV. *c) much, much more dropout-proof. *d) upward-compatible all the way to the VariCam. *e) able to be edited on a desktop today, via FCP HD, and I'm sure other editing solutions will come along as well, and f) samples at 4:2:2 color space.

HDV is: a) a brand new format with no existing infrastructure, no inroads to networks or anything else right now, b) extremely much more compressed, c) susceptible to much more damaging dropouts, d) not compatible with anything else, e) samples at half the color resolution (4:2:0), and f) not able to be edited comprehensively yet, because you can't output HDV edited material back to the camera! *This last one will hopefully be fixed within a matter of days, but who can say when?

So with DVCPRO-HD you get 4x to 5x the bitrate, twice the color depth, dropout protection and compatibility with other DVCPRO-HD equipment, as compared to HDV. *Oh, and let's not forget that DVCPRO-HD offers 8 tracks of 16-bit uncompressed audio, as opposed to HDV's two mixed tracks of MPEG-1 compressed audio.

Resolution is another issue: HDV supports 1280x720p and 1440x1080i. *The VariCam apparently images at 1280x720 and DVCPRO-HD records that at 960x720. *I don't know about specs for interlace recording. *It's possible that DVCPRO-HD supports 1080, but I don't know that for sure.

[Rogue Crew]

Jeez, Barry. That's quite an answer. One follow up - when you were describing dropouts, you referred to the loss of a frame. Did you actually mean "frame" or "field" is what is lost?

[Antoine_Fabi]

now, that...Mr Green, i agree 100%.


just imagine the tape droupout is exactly on the I frame...:P
...14 following frames with missing info...good luck to the dropout "repair" shop....he he...

...that's why i really hope Panasonic is going with DVCProHD...or another reliable HD format.

[Barry_Green]

Actually you apparently lose the entire group of pictures regardless of where the dropout actually happens. At least in the 8 or 10 dropouts I've seen, they always look the same, and they always act the same: half a second of freeze-frame. So it wouldn't have to be on the I-frame, it can be anywhere in the group, and yield the same results: 15 dropped frames.

As far as dropped field or dropped frame, I'm not sure of the exact reference you meant. In DV, you don't lose a whole frame or even a whole field -- you lose a few macroblocks, maybe five or six 8x8 blocks on the screen. In HDV, you lose 15 frames/30 fields.

[Antoine_Fabi]

Barry,

yes, it "seems" that DVCProHD supports 720p AND 1080i60 !

I checked in Final Cut Pro HD's sequence settings and there are numerous possibilities (timebase, frame rates, pixel aspect ratios etc...)

Both DVCProHD 1080i60 and DVCProHD 720p60 are listed in the pixel aspect ratio menu,

AND

Both DVCProHD 1080i and DVCProHD720p are listed in the QuickTime Video settings menu.

...so maybe the Panasonic/Apple "association" indicates that their P2 cards "could" work with these codecs.

But i am not a technician, and i dont have any info about it.
...just trying to logically predict the future...and/or dream...

[chi_red]

hmm...
B&H is posting it as 4900 dollars.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=357486&is=REG

but they might be wrong.

[Rogue Crew]

Here is the MSRP at the Sony site:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/SubCategory?m=0&p=2&sp=141&sm=0&s=&cpos=

[Barry_Green]

Apparently the retail is $5946, but there is speculation that Sony's MAP is $4900. MAP is the "minimum advertised price", which means the camera could be advertised for anywhere from $4900 on up. A dealer retains the right to sell it for whatever price they want, but when a MAP is involved in the dealer contract, they can't advertise that price (which is why sometimes you'll see "e-mail us for a better price", because they're not allowed to advertise it any lower than the MAP). MAP's are common in retailing...

It seems really odd that B&H would go ahead and list it at the minimum advertised price right away, even before release. I mean, they kept the XL2 pegged at full retail for the first two months it was out, and didn't lower their price at all until last week. They had the FX1 at full retail for the first couple of weeks or whatever, only recently lowering it. So as to why they'd offer the Z1 at the lowest possible price, two months before it even comes on the market, seems curious. Note that you cannot order it from them, only ask to be notified when it comes in. SO we'll see if they change the price once they actually have them available for sale.

[David Jimerson]

Maybe they know something we don't.

(Let the rumors FLY!)

[chi_red]

I went to B&H yesterday and guys working there told me that it is going to be 4800 dollars...

[sparkhope]

Sammy's in LA was taking preorders for 4799+tax at DVExpo....