View Full Version : DVFilm Maker 2.1 converts HDV to 24P
See http://dvfilm.com/fx1
The program has been modified to read 60i/50i Mpeg-2 or Mpeg-2 transport files directly, and convert to 24P/25P Quicktime with your choice of codec. You can then edit with any 24P/25P-capable editing program including older versions of Premiere and FCP.
The results look to me much sharper than DV-24P frames and should transfer to film well. I am anxious for others to try it before we release the software. It will be provided as a free update to existing users of Maker.
Marcus
Policar
12-03-2004, 01:52 PM
Sounds great. I think we'd all be interested in seeing some samples, though, especially as cineframe 24 is supposed to be pretty bad and 60i to 24p may prove to offer much better results.
SamEdwards
12-03-2004, 05:29 PM
I'm looking forward to downloading it and giving it a try. I also have high hopes for HDV.
thanks!
Sam
monster
12-03-2004, 08:13 PM
Why do you suggest "Record audio on DAT" ?
Why do you suggest *"Record audio on DAT" ?
The camera records audio with mpeg-1 Level II instead of uncompressed like most video cameras. Haven't done much testing to see if that's good enough for film production but the safe thing for now is to record sound uncompressed (on a DAT or MiniDV).
Barry_Green
12-04-2004, 04:36 PM
I'm looking forward to downloading it and giving it a try. I also have high hopes for HDV.
thanks!
Sam
I had high hopes for HDV. After spending some time with it, um, I'm not sure how I feel. Definitely not as optimistic as I used to be -- HDV dropouts are insanely devastating, although as infrequent as DV dropouts, they're much worse. And I'm concerned about the quality holding up after recompressing and putting back out to tape (although if going for DVD output, that's not really an issue).
If Panasonic would get around to releasing a prosumer-priced DVCPRO-HD camera (such as has been teased about with that balsa-wood mockup they showed a year ago), I think people would be much less willing to accept HDV's limitations.
If Panasonic does respond with "real" DVCPRO-HD, HDV as a format may be in trouble. If Panasonic doesn't respond, then HDV will likely enjoy quite a bit of success as it'd be the only game in town. I don't really see any other HD formats around any time soon. The ball is most definitely in Panasonic's court. If they join the HDV coalition, HDV is it. If they introduce an alternative, then things could get really fun.
As it is, I'm cancelling my order for a Z1. With the pricing mistake they made (it's actually $5946, not $4900) and the questions I have surrounding HDV, I can afford to wait to see if Panasonic responds, or if JVC comes out with a killer progressive model (because Sony will *not* do 24P progressive, it's like they have a corporate phobia of it or something unless you're willing to spend $35000). I can wait. If you can afford to wait, I recommend you wait. Things can only get better for us, and Sony's not going to run out of FX1's and Z1's any time soon, it'll always be there if we decide to quit waiting (or it becomes apparent there's nothing worth waiting for coming out any time soon).
Hayden_Rivers
12-04-2004, 04:45 PM
HDV dropouts are insanely devastating, although as infrequent as DV dropouts, they're much worse.
Why is it so much worse? Do you just lose the picture for 10-20 seconds or something? I think with DV dropouts, I'd usually get a sound or a beep for a second and that would be it. Annoying as all hell, but not fatal.
Barry_Green
12-04-2004, 05:13 PM
HDV dropouts freeze the screen for a good half-second. So on DV you'd get a few tiny little sparkles on the screen for one frame (maybe two). On HDV the entire screen freezes for a full half second. It's incredible -- when you see it you'll know. You just have to toss the whole take in the trash (or have *plenty* of cutaways, and pray that they weren't in the middle of dialogue or something) or use a FireStore or something... anything... but man, it's ugly. I would think that a wedding videographer would be SCREWED if they shot a wedding on HDV and one of those dropouts hit during a crucial moment... I, for one, would not consider taking a paying job on HDV unless I had something like an HDV firestore. DV dropouts are bad enough, but they can be fixed in post. HDV dropouts cannot be fixed, they can only be cut away from -- and you'd better hope you have something to cut away to!
Guest
12-04-2004, 06:40 PM
Is this dropout constant? How many dropouts did you have in 1 hour raw material? Wasn't it just a faulty tape?
Barry_Green
12-04-2004, 08:41 PM
The dropouts happen about as frequently as DV dropouts do, because, well, the dropout is a tape issue, and the tape is the same between the cameras. The problem is that the severity of the dropouts are far worse on HDV than they are on DV.
On DV, a minor tape glitch means you might get hit for a single frame for about five small blocks in the frame. Average viewer may not even notice it, and when I get hit with 'em I'm usually obsessive enough to go into post and repair them.
On HDV, that same minor glitch on the tape will result in the camera "freezing up" for 15 solid frames. It's awful when it happens, it's about as bad as the DV "venetian blind" dropout, except that ALL HDV dropouts are this bad. In DV I might get 30 or 40 small "sparklie" dropouts for every "venetian blind" scrag, but in HDV every dropout = a dropped GOP, or 15 frames of seized-up operation.
How often does it happen? We did a total of about 2 hours of source tape, and got hit once. The other guy using the camera shot about half an hour and got hit twice. Then when I assembled the footage and put it back out to tape, that tape got hit about six times.
So it's not a lot, it's quite infrequent, but when it happens, it's disastrous. I was using all brand-new MQ tapes.
There may be a reason Sony introduced a new HDV tape when they introduced the camera, and even though that tape is $18 each, if it prevents dropouts, it'd be a wise investment. Either that or a Firestore-type device that records to either hard disk or flash memory... but I'd have a hard time recording a concert or other type of event on HDV tape alone. I think it'd be asking for trouble.
Policar
12-04-2004, 09:28 PM
Barry, I beg to disagree (even though you're my hero when it comes to technical knowledge). Drop out is EVERY bit as devestating with DV, but only if you're shooting 24p. I've had drop out issues in FCP with 24pA footage and each time I have one, I have to use the finder (I have a mac), open quicktime player, splice the DV file apart to remove any corrupted frame, then go back into FCP and remove advanced pull down seperately from each clip. Usually it takes quite a bit of experimenting to get everything perfect. I find that a single 24pA dropout disrupts the entire pulldown cadence. Or maybe it's just me and some bad luck with FCP.
Antoine_Fabi
12-04-2004, 09:35 PM
am i so lucky ?
in about 250 hrs of shooting with DV in all kinds of situations, i had only a couple of droupouts, and it was with the new Panasonic tape.
no joke.
Barry_Green
12-05-2004, 02:27 AM
Policar... are you editing 24PA with pulldown intact? That's not the way you want to do it. Edit it as native 24P, and you can easily repair any DV dropout. You can do it by duplicating the prior (or following) frame, or by splicing in the bits that got corrupted. Even if you duplicate a frame to correct the dropout, you're only duplicating *one* frame, versus HDV where it duplicates 15 frames.
24PA shouldn't be edited as 60i... it's not meant for that. It's meant to be edited in a 24P timeline.
If FCP can't do that kind of repair job, it's FCP's fault, because in Vegas it's instantaneous and easy. Hopefully they'll update the software so you don't have to go through such a nightmare.
Policar
12-05-2004, 09:49 AM
I always editing on a 23.98fps timeline. Whenever there's any error in the pulldown scheme due to dropouts, a slow disk, etc. Final Cut Pro goes crazy and refuses to remove pulldown for the entire clip. I believe it also stops capture by default, though you can turn that off if you want to.
I suppose it's a software problem instead of a hardware one, but it's a big pain.
Barry_Green
12-05-2004, 04:35 PM
That does sound like an enormous pain... ugh. Well, hopefully in the next iteration of FCP they'll see the wisdom of not forcing you to remove pulldown during capture, which should eliminate the hassle you're encountering.
SamEdwards
12-05-2004, 06:10 PM
Is there a demo version for mac?
thanks,
Sam
Not yet, perhaps late this month (Dec 2004).
Antoine_Fabi
12-08-2004, 01:38 PM
You have 2 choices with FCP.
You can remove the pulldown while capturing, or remove the pulldown once it has been captured on the HD.
Maker 2.1 is now released for Windows, and it will convert HDR-FX1 stream files to 24P Quicktime. There is more info at http://dvfilm.com/fx1
The Mac version will be coming in January.
Despite the drawbacks to the Mpeg-2 compression and the mpeg audio, it is pretty impressive on 35mm and I think this is the way to go if you're serious about transfer to film. We are offering to do this HD filmout at the PAL/NTSC price if the DVFilm software is used to do the conversion, there is more info on that at the link above.
dakotapod
12-23-2004, 08:14 AM
Hey Marcus.
I assume you have now transferred some footage. "pretty impressive on 35mm and I think this is the way to go if you're serious about transfer to film". Can you be a little more elaborate please. Does it look as good or a little better then Mini DV? Does it blow Mini DV out of the water? What are some of your thoughts on the end products looks? pros/Cons?
Thanks
SamEdwards
12-23-2004, 10:44 AM
I would love to screen the 35mm from HDV 24p. We have a several screening rooms at work (ILM) and I'm sure I could get the print back to you in a couple of days.
thanks,
Sam
Maheel
12-24-2004, 11:02 PM
I tried the demo with some m2t fiiles. But it wont convert them to 24P. The guide says the m2t files, which are created by the FX1 can not be converted to 24P.
Hey Marcus.
I assume you have now transferred some footage. *"pretty impressive on 35mm and I think this is the way to go if you're serious about transfer to film". Can you be a little more elaborate please. Does it look as good or a little better then Mini DV? Does it blow Mini DV out of the water? What are some of your thoughts on the end products looks? pros/Cons?
Thanks
Yes, the same old motorcycle shots everyone has downloaded. It looks way sharper on film than anything I've seen from NTSC or PAL.
The cons of the format are: 1)playing back full resolution in real time during editing might be impossible with a cheap computer 2)Dropouts if they occur will ruin a take.
I have a potential fix for 1) and that is an easy way to edit lo-res clips and then substitute the full-res clips for the final render. The fix for 2) I suppose is review all your shots before striking the set/leaving the location and/or use a hard drive instead of tape to capture.
I would love to screen the 35mm from HDV 24p. *We have a several screening rooms at work (ILM) and I'm sure I could get the print back to you in a couple of days.
thanks,
Sam
Sure no problem. *We are working on a demo reel for the FX1. Anyone who would like their clips included please send them to me on CDROM or DVD-R. We need raw 60i m2t files shot at 1/60th sec shutter speed and permission to use. Our address is on the contact page at http://dvfilm.com
I tried the demo with some m2t fiiles. But it wont convert them to 24P. The guide says the m2t files, which are created by the FX1 can not be converted to 24P.
It will. Make sure you are using the 24P edit options which converts to true 24P, not 24P film motion option which is 60i with film look. The ReadMeFirst file included with the download has step-by-step instructions. If you have any further support issues direct them to support@dvfilm.com
chalbers
12-31-2004, 02:29 AM
Well ... I tried out 60i to 24p from an FX1 m2t file with DVFilm Maker 2.1
The nasty ghosting that happens with normal DV that get's transformet from 60i to 24p is still VERY appearant in the resulting HD 24p footage ... I didn't expect different though.
Still not a good 24p option .
I know ... I'm a perfectionist.
Frank
Well ... I tried out 60i to 24p from an FX1 m2t file with DVFilm Maker 2.1
The nasty ghosting that happens with normal DV that get's transformet from 60i to 24p is still VERY appearant in the resulting HD 24p footage ... I didn't expect different though.
Still not a good 24p option .
I know ... I'm a perfectionist.
Frank
What shutter speed was used? At 1/60th the field blending joins the end of one blur to the beginning of the next so you should not see any ghosting.
chi_red
12-31-2004, 12:14 PM
Hi Marcus,
If Maker 2.1 is released, why is it still saying,
"New Version 2.0 - Windows or Mac - $145 plus shipping"
http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm
I thought 2.0 has been out for a long time.
just curious.
chalbers
01-01-2005, 02:02 AM
What shutter speed was used? At 1/60th the field blending joins the end of one blur to the beginning of the next so you should not see any ghosting.
I'm not sure of the shutter speed . I downloaded it from a site a while ago. Is there any m2t footage online shot with FX1 using 1/60 and 60i for me to test ?
Frank
chalbers
01-01-2005, 03:05 AM
What shutter speed was used? At 1/60th the field blending joins the end of one blur to the beginning of the next so you should not see any ghosting.
Hi Marcus !
To come back on this ...
Here is a HD footage I created with 60i 1/60th shutter (180 angle):
http://home.comcast.net/~chalbers/hdv_60_moblur.mov
I ran it through DVFilm Maker 2.1 and I got the following result:
http://home.comcast.net/~chalbers/hdv_60_moblur_24.mov
As you can see there is definately ghosting. Or am I doing something wrong ?
I'm using "24P Editing Options" "Convert 60i to 24P"
Thanks !
Frank
Hi Marcus !
To come back on this ...
Here is a HD footage I created with 60i 1/60th shutter (180 angle):
http://home.comcast.net/~chalbers/hdv_60_moblur.mov
I ran it through DVFilm Maker 2.1 and I got the following result:
http://home.comcast.net/~chalbers/hdv_60_moblur_24.mov
As you can see there is definately ghosting. Or am I doing something wrong ?
I'm using "24P Editing Options" "Convert 60i to 24P"
Thanks !
Frank
It looks like the result you would get with 1/120 sec shutter speed.
Keep in mind with a program like After Effects, 360 deg shutter angle is required to simuate 60i fields with 1/60 sec shutter speed, because for field rendering the "shutter angle" is with respect to the field rate (60), not the frame rate (30).
chalbers
01-02-2005, 12:19 AM
This is created with 3D software where you can set the camera to 60 interlaced 1/60 th shutter speed (180 degrees)
Frank
This is created with 3D software where you can set the camera to 60 interlaced 1/60 th *shutter speed (180 degrees)
Frank
A movie camera running at 60 frames/sec would require a 360 degree shutter to get 1/60th sec exposure time, not 180.
chalbers
01-05-2005, 02:02 AM
A movie camera running at 60 frames/sec would require a 360 degree shutter to get 1/60th sec exposure time, not 180.
Hi Marcus ! It had nothing to do with shutterspeed, my fields where in the wrong order on my test. DUH !
That's why the stutter. Stutter is gone now and looks great. ;-)
Will post some test results tomorrow !
BTW ... nice trick to horizontally flip the frame so you can use lower fields first on a normally upper fields first clip ! :-)
Frank