Out with the DVx.....in with the HDx (smile)

[ShannonRawls]

Leaks of Panasonic camera going to be announced at NAB.

read about it at www.camcorderinfo.com

Marketing guru's...boy, they sure are good. *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

[J.R. Hudson]

Rumour or not; I think we have suspected this. Under $10,000? Ouch. Like what $8999.00 >:( :-/

[ShannonRawls]

OK!!!
Start saving the change in your ashtray and sofa recliner kiddies!!

Either way, if it's a better cordless drill then the one I have now....I'll buy one. *shrugs*

In the meantime, I'll use the cordless drill I just bought to continue building houses. I should have built enough houses by the time the new drill comes out to have paid for my current drill.

Others who wish to wait idly-by, twidling their thumbs for the realease of the new upcoming feature-packed cordless drill, can do so......... ME...........I'm going to work.

*wink*

- ShannonRawls.com

[Reset_1]

You guy's might want to check this thread out also.

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=110803732465870&forumid=162

Oh yeah, and you better start saving your $$$. :-X

[nateweaver]

It was a no-brainer that they'd have to respond with a DVCPRO HD 24P camera...a Pana rep at DV Expo even gave me a sideways wink saying "wait a little bit".

I thought it was going to be a little more head-to-head though. Seems Pana is taking the "high road", counting on customers to reject arguable quality of HDV and hassles of workflow. Not to mention creating a new mid-market price space...even $7-8K would weed out the enthusiasts.

Seems cool though...I would rather have more of a choice this way. Z1 for myself, HDX100 for low-budge paid jobs, and film/SDX-900 or F900 for things over $30k.

[Shaw]

Didn't they say it would be priced around the same as the Z1?

Personally a DVCPRO HD cam under 10K... wow. With progressive scan from the same guys who brought us the DVX? No questions asked it'll be worth the price.

[Barry_Green]

I haven't heard anyone authoritative comment on this yet. As far as I can tell, this is a story written by someone who wasn't there, according to reports that supposedly someone who *was* there gave them, even after they'd been "sworn to secrecy" but chose to talk anyway, right?

Who's to say it's accurate? Who's to say it's official?

Rumor-mongering is fun, but I'd still want to wait to see the official word from Panasonic before declaring anything as being valid or relevant.

[xander76]

Barry, in the thread linked above, it looks like Jan Crittenden has confirmed:

1) that the meeting happened
2) that the camera will be under $10K
3) that it will record DVCPROHD, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO
4) that it will record 24P

Notably, she does not comment on:

1) memory card pricing
2) if memory cards are included in the $10K price
3) if it records to tape

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=110810251649526&forumid=162

[nateweaver]

Barry, Jan has posted responses on two different boards commenting on the developing threads...and definately not denying the info.

To me, the idea I got was that she was ok with the info getting out, and wanted to control rampant speculation about things NOT mentioned in the news.

[edit] Hah! Simultaneous posts!

[ShannonRawls]

Barry, so Jan Crittenden, Product Manager of DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100 @ Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems is not valid or relevant and she's just Rumor-mongering??

[xander76]

I agree, Nate. I think that Panasonic is following a smart strategy for new product announcement here. A company should pre-announce a product when it won't undercut any of the company's current products and might cut into their competitors' sales by causing consumer doubt. Today's announcement is a perfect example of this: saying that there is an under $10K DVCPROHD 24P camera will cause doubt in the minds of folks considering the FX1 and cause some of them to wait for the Panasonic.

On the other hand, a company shouldn't pre-announce a product that will be competitive with a current offering. That's why the DVX100A was not pre-announced. Had Panasonic pre-announced the DVX-100A, the DVX100's sales would have plummeted as folks waited for the latest and greatest.

[strancali]

i can't wait for it to come out. I hope its true. I will buy the panny in a heart beat.

[Barry_Green]

Barry, *so Jan Crittenden, Product Manager of DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100 @ Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems is not valid or relevant and she's just Rumor-mongering??
Can you point me to a single post she's made on the subject? *Only one I've seen is what Nate referred to on creativecow, which is to confirm everything she's already said before, except to add 24P and DVCPRO50 to the mix.

Jan's not the one rumor-mongering. *People who are writing articles citing an "unnamed source", who weren't there and didn't hear the info, and those who are picking up that story and running with it are the ones who are potentially rumor-mongering.

Don't know what your post was meant to do -- seems like trying to "put me in my place" or something... trust me, I know who Jan is, I've talked with her a lot -- heck, she's a contributing author on the DVX book I wrote!

All I'm trying to do is say that until something official is announced, nothing official has been announced. *There was rampant speculation about the Z1, and whether it'd have an "improved" 24p mode, and true progressive scan, and 48i scanning, and all sorts of stuff like that, that turned out to be entirely false. *So all I'm saying is, until Panasonic says something official, whatever's getting said is *not* official, so if you choose to believe it, that's your choice, but it's not official.

Now, again -- if Jan has confirmed anything that I don't know about, or any other Panasonic representative has officially confirmed something, please enlighten me. *As far as I know, the official comment from Jan has been "24p, P2, and DVCPRO-HD/DVCPRO-50/miniDV recording, all priced competitive with the Sony". *No mention of the price being $10,000, or what may or may not be included in whatever price is actually set... heck, $4,000 is "under $10,000", so what does that mean? I also saw no mention from her of a tape drive or not a tape drive, no mention of what will get recorded on that tape drive if there is one, no mention of CCD size, form factor, number of CCD's, or timeframe of release, or anything else like that.

Unless I missed the post -- I've only seen the one comment, on creativecow. *Nate, you mentioned a second posting by her?

[nateweaver]

But it was based on a presentation by real Panasonic people, and info was confirmed publicly by a Panasonic person who would know, and moreover, somebody who has the authority to confirm such a thing publicly.

Jan's no dummy. The format wars are being fought right here, on the internet. Controlled release of information, and more importantly, expectation management is how it's done.

I don't think there were enough details given in the mentioned posts to have any reason to doubt the info. In fact, really, all I gleaned from it all was that yes, Panasonic has an answer to the recent hoo-yah going on (which I knew already from DV Expo), it will be DVCPRO HD, and it will be less than $10K.

What's to doubt? It came straight from the source.

[ShannonRawls]

Can you point me to a single post she's made on the subject? *Only one I've seen is what Nate referred to on creativecow.

OK, ummmmm (rubbing my chin)... you just pointed your-own-self to one Barry. *Why you askin' me to??




Don't know what your post was meant to do -- seems like trying to "put me in my place" or something... trust me, I know who Jan is, I've talked with her a lot -- heck, she's a contributing author on the DVX book I wrote!

Who in the Heck are you talking to like that Mr. Barry Green?? *Do you know who you're dealing with here at DVXUser???

I AM A CERTIFIED "BRONZE" MEMBER HOT DAMMIT!! Look to the left and check my record! *Show some respect!!!

*smile*

relax dude. *you sound like you need a break. *it's just the internet Barry. *

the WWW

- ShannonRawls.com

[Barry_Green]

Dude, work with me: I said (or at least clearly meant) OTHER than that post, because that post obviously doesn't confirm anything other than what I already mentioned.

But hey, Shannon, no problem -- I just thought it came across as somewhat confrontational. *If that wasn't your intention, then I totally overreacted and I apologize.

Nate, I'm still asking -- what was confirmed? *Steve went on and on about all sorts of speculation -- whether it'd have 1/3" CCD's, whether it'd use pixel shift, all sorts of stuff that apparently *wasn't* covered in the presentation. *He said it'd be a palmcorder -- does that mean something like a Sony TRV9? *Jan sure didn't confirm that, or any of that other stuff he said. *All Jan said was "24P, DVCPROHD/DVCPRO50/DVCPRO25", and that there would be some sort of $10,000 package. *She nearly went so far as to say that he was making stuff up. * *She didn't say anything about release date, or other features or anything.

Look, it may turn out that everything Steve said is going to happen. *Or it may turn out that there's a lot of "fill-in-the-blank" speculation going on there.

Jan didn't deny anything, that's true. *But is that the same as confirming? *I don't think so. *If she were to play that game, it wouldn't be long before a crafty debater painted her into a corner. *So she takes the diplomatic way out, and denies nothing, and confirms nothing. *I mean, really, what did we learn from her post, that she hadn't already confirmed for us (except that it *will* be 24P, and that in addition to DVCPRO-HD and DVCPRO/25, it'll also support DVCPRO/50)?

I guess I'm being too picky (but those who have read my posts know that I like to stick to specifics, verifiable and testable, etc). *And the only specifics I can glean are that a) there was a presentation made, and b) Jan confirmed that the people there were told that there would be a DVCPROHD/50/25 camera that uses P2 and 24p. *If you want to read between the lines, Jan's almost saying that the $10,000 price would *not* be for just the camera -- look at how she worded it.

I dunno... I'm content to wait for an actual announcement. *Mainly because I've been told here on this board, by Jan herself, that the camera would be "priced competitive with the Z1", and $10,000 ain't priced competitive with the Z1. *That's priced competitive with the DSR390 maybe, but not the Z1. *So I am going on record as doubting that part.

But, we're halfway through February already, so it'll only be another six or eight weeks of guessing. *That time'll fly by.

[Zig_Zigman]

My feeling is that Panny saying "under 10k" and JVC saying "under 20k" is an old marketing practice. Start high, and come in much lower with the real price. Creates demand and excitement when the product is announced. They do it with automobiles all the time.

So you say 10k, you hit them with 4995.00 (gotta stay close to the Sony) and voila! A gasp from the crowd...

This is kewl, man!!

[J.R. Hudson]

I'm still trying to figure out what "Out with the DVX" means?

[Zig_Zigman]

Jan has said they will not be discontinuing the dvx...so maybe they'll slap 16x9 in there to keep it going for a while....the aj-hdx users will always need doorstops...






juuuuust kidding *8)

[Zim]

It will have to be under $5,000.

[Zim]

I just got the picture of the new camera:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=102

[SergejIvanovits]

"Out with the DVX" means a Panasonic DVCPRO under $10k is more like under $25k just to be able to shoot 36 minutes of video and it looks like a joke with it's design.

A Z1 under $5k with a Jody's setup is under $9k and you can use it today with a $15,- tape. This setup is not just quality for the price but it is something to look at. And if Jody says it is something I can use in production than every "indy" could use it.

Camcorders like PD170, FX1, DVX100, Xl2 with miniDV was just a perfect solution if you look at the price and the quality you get for it. 1 camcorder + 1 NLE and you are in the business. But under $9k ..... hmmm ... I guess Panasonic going to loose all these indy funs if they want to move over the HD.

If money doesn't metter than you can get more quality today , don't have to wait for a under $10k+++++ camcorder with it's funny look. But if Panasonic wants to beat Sony now than they have to come up with something under $5k.

[Steve_Shovlar]

If Panasonic bring it out at just under $10,000 they are out of the game. Sony will clean up. The price of the camera "has" to be in the same bracket at the ZU1 to compete.

With very high priase being heaped on the ZU1 and FX1 virtually every day of the week (haven't seen one bad review) Sony have a massive head start on Panasonic.

And who wants anything other than dv tapes anyway? Easy to store, no hassle with downloading shot footage, and CHEAP!

Sorry but if these rumours are true, its Sony 1 Panasonic 0 and full time.

[SergejIvanovits]

And who wants anything other than dv tapes anyway? Easy to store, no hassle with downloading shot footage, and CHEAP!


The P2 card is better than miniDV but it cost too much to start with. It is like a hd-recorder.

If you are using miniDV you should use a tapestation for transfer. My guess is that only one from hundred users has a dedicated tapestation and all the others are using the camcorder to transfer the footage to nle.

I'm not against the brand or the price. $10k could be an OK price but the design and the concept? $10k for a palmcorder which going to cost you more if you want to use it?

[MovieSwede]

Well my DVX is gonna stay with me as a nice bottle of wine or a super8 cam. Its a classic :)

[Zack Birlew]

Oh yeah, Shannon, the two stars are just kcufin-nuts! ;)

[Neil Rowe]

alright...its ok to assume stuff in your own head.. but there is something wickity wackity wrong about spreading your delicious peanut buttery nougat filled assumtions all over the net.
seriously ..(IMHO)peeps need to chill out on all the speculation. the camera will come and then youll know what it has.. theres no reason to start puking up assumptions based on other assumptions and drive eachother nuts over it. barry is correct that jan didnt really confirm or deny much at all. who cares what kind of marketing that is.. seriously... i dont care how they market the camera. ill just wait till they show it to me and decide whether or not im going to buy it. now let me finish drawing my liger... its basically my favorite animal.

[nateweaver]

Nate, I'm still asking -- what was confirmed? *Steve went on and on about all sorts of speculation -- whether it'd have 1/3" CCD's, whether it'd use pixel shift, all sorts of stuff that apparently *wasn't* covered in the presentation.

Nothing was confirmed, in the way you'd consider real. For me, I saw enough evidence that:

1-The camera we're talking about is Panasonic's answer to the HDV market. This is based on what Jan said in the one mentioned post, and some others in other threads.

2-This camera will use DVCPRO HD. Again, not a big surprise. Panasonic has a big investment in this, and the Varicam has been around for a while now. Trickle down engineering.

3-The camera will be much closer to $10K than $5K. Obviously the most arguable point. Yes they could be just covering their ass and playing the numbers game safe, but as DVCPRO HD is technically superior, and works with higher data rates (and therefore needs faster processing, etc, to the tune of 4 times that of HDV), I'm guessing they can't get DVCPRO HD down that low yet.

I'm just gonna kinda say "whatever" at this point, and not post further on this. My conclusions are just that: My own. I know I need to get moving on HD content NOW, not at the end of the year. DVX music videos are standard fare already, while the one FX1 video I've made has the people I have to impress to stay employed saying "amazing". FX1 and Z1 rentals in Los Angeles are through the roof. People are eating my lunch, while I argue on message boards.

I shoot [and buy] a Z1 for now, and hope Panasonic comes up with something better, at which point I'll buy it.

[princigalli]

Sony sales are down. They will be even lower if Panasonic leaks a few more rumors, and if people know it will come out in 2005. Better if before Summer, I know many people that want to be ready when the sunlight is out.

If I knew Panasonic was coming out with such a camera any time soon, I would have no FX1 right now. I would trust Panasonic anytime over Sony, a company still selling interlaced cameras with audio problems and MPEG2 encoding problems.

[Jan_Crittenden]

I just got the picture of the new camera:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=102

That is not, I repeat not, a picture of the new camcorder.

Sorry for not being able to say more guys, I am under lock-down on the subject. I can only say under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD on P2, 24P.

Stay tuned,

Jan

[Barry_Green]

Nate, I wasn't "challenging" you, I was asking for more information. I don't keep up with every board on the net, so I was looking for more.

What some people are saying as Jan "confirming" Steve's post, I could read as her actually saying "Steve, that's not what you were told and you know it." I mean, he goes on to speculate that the camera alone is $10,000, and that memory cards will cost a whole lot more, etc... and by the time he's done, he's got a potential price of nearly $25,000 there for a full kit! As far as I'm concerned, I think the camera will be much lower, probably $6000 or below, and that it's more likely that the fully-kitted out version will be the $10,000 price that keeps being mentioned. And I base that solely on what Jan has said before: "priced competitive with the Sony".

Of course, that may have changed, as everything is subject to change until it's officially on the market.

So... we will see what we will see. I guess my take on the wording is just different than your guys' take.

[J.R. Hudson]

Thank you Jan for at least giving us something; My interest is peaked but if the camera is not geared towards the 'indie-filmmaker' market then I'm not interested.

Hell, I'm in no position anyway to upgrade (imminent relocation EAST COAST in 17 months). If something comes out that is a filmmakers dream though; I'm going to cry.

Not really; my DVX will bring me years of servtitude and my work/skills/experience has yet to warrant an upgrade in camera or price or package. So while S.Rawls fondles his camera, whichever that one os, I'll be shooting SD 24p and be happy about it.

BUt damn it better not be a 'filmmakers tool'. >:( :D

[Jeff_Chandler]

As far as I'm concerned, I think the camera will be much lower, probably $6000 or below, and that it's more likely that the fully-kitted out version will be the $10,000 price that keeps being mentioned. And I base that solely on what Jan has said before: "priced competitive with the Sony

I think you're absolutely right, Barry. And realistically, something in the $6,000 range would definitely be price competitive with the Sony, because this cam will be FAR SUPERIOR to the Sony. Obviously, I would be thrilled if it came in at the same price as the Z1, but with all it has to offer, I don't see how it can. But if it does, Sony might as well shut down the production lines for the Z1, because it will be no competition for the Panasonic. Counting my pennies as I type ;D.

[Neil Rowe]

well, even if the new cam does rock as we expect it to, people still bought pd150s and 170s and xl1s long after the DVX was out... i doubt they will quit buying FX or Z1s either..
..which is a good thing in some ways. well take any fair, legal, ethical, and wise advantage over the competition that we can. a little tip of the hat to jan as we continue to astound everyone with our panasonics up our sleeves.

[Jeff_Chandler]

Yeah, I was exagerrating, Neil ;D. But I do think that it will be very stiff competition for Sony, and it could cause a number of people to wait. I know I am one. But, I will still have uses for my PD170, VX2000, and my XL1. Different cams fro different purposes. But, this should turn out to be a very special cam. If someone's on the fence, this would certainly be incentive to wait for the Panny's release.

[GregJacobson]

That is not, I repeat not, a picture of the new camcorder.

Sorry for not being able to say more guys, I am under lock-down on the subject. *I can only say under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD on P2, 24P.

Stay tuned,

Jan


Hmmm, I wonder if we took you out and got you drunk if you would give up some more info....... ;D

[Ranger]

That is not, I repeat not, a picture of the new camcorder.

Sorry for not being able to say more guys, I am under lock-down on the subject. *I can only say under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD on P2, 24P.

Stay tuned,

Jan
Whew!!!

That's a relief. This may sound shallow (form over substance), but that was a funky looking camera.

My curiousity is now peaked. I may have to hold on to my money just a wee bit longer until NAB. Thanks for the update Jan.

sigh ... more waiting. :'(

[SergejIvanovits]

That is not, I repeat not, a picture of the new camcorder.
It's good to hear. The camcorder should in worst case look like the DVX and not something like this one on the picture.


I can only say under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD on P2, 24P.


Only 24p? Not 25p like the DVX100AE in 50i land?

[Zim]

That is not, I repeat not, a picture of the new camcorder.

Sorry for not being able to say more guys, I am under lock-down on the subject. *I can only say under $10,000, DVCPRO25/50/HD on P2, 24P.

Stay tuned,

Jan

I was just kidding around,,,, but story I read did say palmcorder size. 6, 7, 8, 9 thousand for a palmcorder size cam is going to be to high. Under $5,000 maybe.

[Barry_Green]

Only 24p? Not 25p like the DVX100AE in 50i land?
Keep in mind that Jan doesn't represent all of Panasonic. She's the product line manager for the USA, so any camera under her jurisdiction is going to be centered around NTSC or 24p/60p/60i HD. It would seem likely that the European version would have 25p or 50p or 50i etc., but that's not something that Jan controls.

[Zack Birlew]

Well, I'll try and inform you guys about anything I see at NAB. I'm going to make time to go each day so I'm NOT going to miss anything! ;) ;D 8)