AF100 / AF101 - initial report

[Barry_Green]

I'm posting this from the show floor at IBC, where the first working prototypes of the AF100 are being shown to the public. I've had the luxury of working with the pre-production AF101, which is the European model of the AF100. Same basic camera, because all of them are NTSC/PAL switchable.


This prototype isn't finished yet, so I can't say some things definitively, but I can say this – I'm done with shooting on DSLRs. This thing is the bomb.


It is basically everything that I was expecting/hoping it to be, and more. I mean, I was expecting an HPX170 with DSLR-style shallow DOF, and yeah, that's it. What I wasn't expecting was variable frame rates up to 1080/60p. I was hoping for things like 2.35:1 frame markings in the viewfinder, and yeah, it's got it. I was expecting things like zebras, waveform monitor, vectorscope, uncompressed audio, XLRs, line/mic/phantom power controls, manual audio, pre-record, interval recording, and everything else that the HPX170 does, and it has pretty much all of that (I didn't see time-stamp for legal video, but … seriously, this isn't a legal videography camcorder! Although, it could be, I guess).


I wasn't expecting simultaneous HDMI and HD-SDI output, that's really pretty awesome. You can use a cheap HDMI monitor, and use the HD-SDI to record to a NanoFlash or KiPro or whatever, simultaneously. Cool.


I was expecting timecode. I wasn't expecting the ability to sync timecode through LTC (like the HMC150 has) so you can easily sync to timecode slates, to external sound recorders, or to other camcorders in a multi-camera shoot.


I was hoping for (well, demanding really, but it amounts to “hoping for”) a high-def LCD, and yes, that's what it has. High-def LCD and high-def viewfinder. But what I wasn't expecting is that they said that in the final model, the LCD will actually be better than the one on the HPX370. That's really good news!


I was hoping to be able to remove the top handle, and you can. I wasn't expecting to be able to remove the side handgrip, but you can – which lets you strip the unit down to a fairly small box, and also reveals three 1/4-20 mounting holes on the side, which I can just imagine people will be using to attach all sorts of accessories, Red-style. Now that I've seen those two items come off, I really wanted them to make the viewfinder/XLR pod removable, so you could strip it down to a totally svelte box, but that's not possible. I have asked them to consider this for a future version, as that'd be really cool.

I was pretty happy to be setting the sensitivity by ISO instead of by gain levels. But you can do both, at least in this prototype.


As for images – well, imagine a fully-hacked, fully-improved GH13 with better sensitivity and without the aliasing or low-light banding, and that's a good start. It crushes the 7D/5D for clarity and detail, and I shot brick buildings at every possible zoom setting, and there just isn't any rainbow moire. Finally! You can do a wide-angle, deep-focus shot without any fear of the camcorder ruining the shot! And your talent can wear corduroy, or fine-striped shirts, without turning into a huge purple/orange smear! But I can't really comment too much on the imagery, because it's not done yet – by their estimates, it's only at about 70% of completion, and they expect to be able to improve it and make it even better by release time. Which is really promising, because while it's not perfect, already it's better than what people are going to be comparing it to.

I put on my Zeiss ZF 85mm and 50mm, also used a hyper-sharp Olympus 14-35, and at the booth they have a Zeiss Compact Prime 35mm. And, I used the GH1's 14-140 and I even mounted on the GH1's compact pancake 20mm lens, which looked preposterously tiny on such a big body, but really it was pretty darn cool. The 14-140 makes the AF100 into basically a complete video camera, the autofocus is smooth and nice, the zoom is manual but not too shabby, and the range is great (even if the minimum f-stop isn't). With my 85mm and 50mm (both f/1.4) super-extremely-shallow DOF was extremely easy to achieve.


Can't speak to price yet, that's not been released and won't be until the press conference, which is scheduled for 7:00 p.m. tonight (which is about eight and a half hours from now).


Now, keep in mind that everything is subject to change. They might add more features, or they might take some away. It's a pre-production prototype so it's very early, and (to borrow a line from Red) “everything is subject to change.”

Skew? Hugely improved. Didn't get to do a comparison test, but the 24p skew of the AF101 felt like it was at least as good as the HPX370/EX1.


I am sooo not disappointed. They have built pretty much exactly what I was hoping for. There are things I'd like to see added before it's released, obviously, and no we didn't get some of the wild things we were hoping for (like a new 50-megabit 4:2:2 AVC codec) but what we did get is pretty much exactly what we needed – better-than-DSLR imagery in a professional, proper video body, with all the conveniences and features that pro video shooters are used to.

[dcloud]

sold.

does it have colored peaking? or is the lcd so great its good enough?

[AdrianF]

From what you're saying Barry, it sounds as though Panasonic really have been listening.

[Razz16mm]

I thought Panny would be the first to do this when they came out with the GH1.
4/3 just makes too much sense as a motion format. It should become the S16mm of the digital cinema world. Glad to see it coming together so well.

Thanks for the report Barry.

[Erik Olson]

It's miraculous that Panasonic has become so receptive to input from camera operators in the ten years since the DVX100 hit the market. Deriving features through crowd-sourced input is a remarkable advance toward what Arri and Panavision have been doing for generations - and it is a very good and prudent move.

+1 for a removable viewfinder. In fact, anything Panasonic can do to finally do away with that HVX-esque tower where the menu buttons reside would, aesthetically and functionally, be a huge improvement. Functionally, they're half-way there with the removable handle. Having a completely clear, flat surface up top with multiple 3/8 and 1/4 mounting locations would be nifty.

Very exciting - post up some pictures!

[mik303]

The AF-100 sounds amazing. It's a DSLR destroyer for sure. Variable frame rates at 1080, what? That really is great news! Any waveform monitor in the LCD? Will they sell this camera with no lens to keep the price down and make all lenses optional?

[Jay Birch]

Great read... very interested in this camera.

I know it is subject to change, but could you give your first impression of resolving power?... are there any cameras you would compare it too (EX1?).

[Mike McNeese]

It is basically everything that I was expecting/hoping it to be, and more. I mean, I was expecting an HPX170 with DSLR-style shallow DOF, and yeah, that's it.

That's enough of a reason right there.


And, yes, Panasonic has been tuned in to what we are asking for, and they have really delivered! I'm thrilled with the specs and features! HD LCD! 1080/60p! Simultaneous HDMI/SDI! 1/4-20 ports! No moire!!!

Barry, the only thing I would like to hear about is potential jello issues. I'd expect it would be "better" than a DSLR (since it's a different imager), but can we really expect to shoot handheld with the AF100?

[Luis Caffesse]

Thanks for the write up Barry - can't wait to hear more.

:thumbsup:

[svecher]

Barry, did Olympus 14-35 autofocus on this body?

[ZazaCast]

Great information Barry, thanks!

[J Davis]

Great that you took time to post Barry ! Many thanks for your first impressions.

[Gabriel Berube]

+1 to Luis' post, haven't been that eager about a new camcorder since the DVX100!

[Jason Allen]

To quote Wayne Campbell of Wayne's World: "She will be mine. Oh, yes - she will be mine."

Thanks for the comprehensive sneak-peak, Barry! Looking forward to hearing more about the camera I'll DEFINITELY be buying next year (once my budget allows)!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDEEKGUq-9Y

[digitalfilmmaker]

Wow. It's a Red One killer at Scarlet pricing. 1080 60p, uncompressed through HDSDI, no aliasing, etc. How's the CMOS wobble and skew?

[LuckyStudio 13]

Awesome Barry as always ! When are you writing a book for the AF-100 ;)

[Butcher]

The AF-100 records to AVCHD, right? is that the same AVCHD that the HMC40 records to? Barry (or anyone familiar with with cam) - are there any plans to release an AF-100 style camera with a more robust codec? AVCIntra, DVCProHD? A P2 version?

Can't wait to see footage from this thing. Thanks for the info Barry.

[GRENCH]

Question Barry,

How did the 14-35 fair at it's widest point and can you go as far as a 10mm lens with out vignetting?

Really exciting to he this great news. I know what I'm getting for X-MAS. Been waiting a long time for this 1!!!!!

Can't wait to see some footage from this thing.

[Sean Smith]

Thanks a lot Barry! This is awesome!

[Faust]

What I wasn't expecting was variable frame rates up to 1080/60p.Barry, for Christ's sake, are you sure???:cheesy:
Do you mean 60fps VFR in 1920x1080?

[xmephestox]

Barry, how do you feel about the high ISO when comparing it to a DSLR. Do you think it's at least rated at a 800 ISO or less? or more? Does the noise patterning feel more filmic or is it that ugly fast moving colored noise to what Canon DSLRS do? No false color?

ki pro mini just got announced too, throw that in with this camera and it's looking to be the best camera in town for under 10 grand.

[hunter richards]

If its 10-bit HDSDI out then we may have winner with this:

New Aja ki-pro mini 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder (Under $2k!): http://www.aja.com/news/index_article.php?id=125

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Yep!

[xmephestox]

ki pro mini = da bomb.

gonna squash this now though, doubt there will be pro ress 4x4 on it, EVER. it will cut right into it's big brother's business, but i'm looking at the specs for it. freakin amazing, and if you don't wanna attach it to your camera, just tether it and have it plugged into AC power and record and monitor there. the possibilities are wicked.

if af100 stays at 6 grand, and ki pro mini, it makes it a 8 thousand dollar camera. which prices it better than the hpx 370 for a 10 bit intra frame codec. and you get a larger sensor out of it...

when we get an idea on noise floor/sensitivity this is really gonna be amazing.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

HD Magazine reports a list price for the AF101 of "£4,059.00 + VAT", but they don't say what's included for that price:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/9/10/new-cameras-and-prices-from-show-floor.html

Note that list prices are affected by many factors so you shouldn't do a simple currency conversion to your own local currency. I suspect we'll hear pricing for the US & other countries by the press conference later today.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

... But what I wasn't expecting is that they said that in the final model, the LCD will actually be better than the one on the HPX370. That's really good news! ...
Wow: Better than "921,000 dots" (the HPX370 LCD's res)? That will be excellent if the final production AF100 cams include that feature!

[thekreative]

so glad I didn't go crazy on DSLR accessories. Back to a normal form factor 2 years later :)

[mcgeedigital]

I will take 2!

Thanks for the report Barry.

[Nektonic]

Hot damn! This sounds like the "one". I probably shouldn't spend the money, as an HD DSLR will do what I need currently for a fraction of the pricle, but it is gonna be so tempting to want to buy an AF100 come December.

[Chris Messineo]

I'm so excited! This is definitely going to be my next camera. :)

[ATL Media Group]

Gotta get one. It's the prefect cam for my GH13 to compliment!

Sweet

[Sumfun]

Thanks for the update, Barry.

1080p60 is hot! Will that be recording to AVC at 24Mbps, or will the data rate increase (a la EX1)? It may be a moot point if you use the Ki Pro Mini, though. Is the SDI output 10-bits?

[Nektonic]

That AJA recorder sounds like a nice add-on. Once I'm ready to make a feature in approx. another year, I might just go all out with an AF100 plus the AJA ki-pro. I think that would just about do it. I'm on a Mac with FCP, so I that would be a great way to cut out all the AVC-HD file conversion mumbo jumbo.

Or maybe I need to just be like the character on HBO's Hung and start working as a gigolo to save for the AF100? Either that, or go all Heat and start doing bank jobs?


Gotta get one. It's the prefect cam for my GH13 to compliment!

Sweet

Maybe Panasonic will soon come out with a GH-2 that is more in line with some of the AF100's features (better sensor, less noise/moire) for a nice little B-cam?

[ttxsushi]

My next camera for shure.
Does anyone knows a way to adapt Contax Zeiss lens on this camera? I own a full set...
Barry said he tried Zeiss lens with Nikon mount on AF100, hope for an adaptor that works with Contax lens.

[Stephen Mick]

Here you go, sushi…

http://www.cameraquest.com/adp_micro_43_fd.htm

[ATL Media Group]

Maybe Panasonic will soon come out with a GH-2 that is more in line with some of the AF100's features (better sensor, less noise/moire) for a nice little B-cam?

Oh stop! Now i'll need to get the GH2 also! I guess I'll sell my gear and upgrade to the new guys.

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

Barry, try to ask this guys then firmware source will be available to me :-)
I just can't wait anymore. :-)

As for AF-101 and GH2 similarity, I think they'll have many similar things.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

... Can't speak to price yet, that's not been released and won't be until the press conference, which is scheduled for 7:00 p.m. tonight (which is about eight and a half hours from now). ...
Hi Barry: Did the press conference happen? Any interesting announcements? (It's now 11PM in Amsterdam.)

[Stephen Mick]

Hi Barry: Did the press conference happen? Any interesting announcements? (It's now 11PM in Amsterdam.)


I shudder to think about where Barry might be at 11PM in Amsterdam. :D

[ZazaCast]

I shudder to think about where Barry might be at 11PM in Amsterdam. :D

Ha! :laugh:

.........:Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Ah, but if he brought one of the AF100 prototypes & a fast lens with him, the resulting video would be awesome! ;-)

[Aneurysm]

Wow! It's going to be even more awesome than I thought! I can't wait to get my hands on one of these.

Keep up the good work Barry!

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

FYI: If you hadn't already seen this (includes some photos of the AF100):
http://blog.panasonic-broadcast.com/ibc-product-highlights/ag-af101/

[shrigg]

Thanks Barry. I know I'm intently watching...

[Dino]

FYI: If you hadn't already seen this (includes some photos of the AF100):
http://blog.panasonic-broadcast.com/ibc-product-highlights/ag-af101/

Peter, interestingly, the specs on that landing page tout, "Twin HD-SDI output(L/R)". Huh? I'm guessing this isn't Dual Link 4:4:4.

Barry?

[xmephestox]

with L/R in there, makes me believe it's gonna have something to do with 3d. Trying to wrap my head on what and how though, if they are in side by side configuration, or beam splitter, you'd have 2 separate sdi for your left and right anyway. maybe it's for a feature not yet annouced?

[Aneurysm]

FYI: If you hadn't already seen this (includes some photos of the AF100):
http://blog.panasonic-broadcast.com/ibc-product-highlights/ag-af101/

Strange. Panasonic posted the prices for the 3DA1 and the HPX3100, but not the AF100.

[Noel Evans]

I am really happy about the 1080/60P, thats fantastic.


If its 10-bit HDSDI out then we may have winner with this:

New Aja ki-pro mini 10-bit 4:2:2 recorder (Under $2k!): http://www.aja.com/news/index_article.php?id=125

And with the above theres the solution. My spidey senses tell me the HD-SDI out will only be 8bit 4:2:2, though I hope I'm wrong.


I will take 2!

Thanks for the report Barry.

I think I'll do the same.

One thing I am wondering about though.


Recording format: AVCHD PH (21 Mbps *Max.24Mbps), HA (17Mbps), HE (6Mbps), HA, HE only for 1080i/59, 94 and 1080i/50
Support video format: 1080i/50, 25p, 1080/59, 94i/29, 97p/23, 98p, 720/50p, 25p, 720/59, 94p/29, 97p/23, 98p


Recording format HE only for 1080/59 and 1080/50 - thats confuses me a little. Does it mean you can only record those formats in HE mode at a measly 6mbps?

And what is 97P/23 etc? Does it mean you can shoot 97 fps into a 23fps recording?

[agcohn]

And what is 97P/23 etc? Does it mean you can shoot 97 fps into a 23fps recording?
No. Somebody messed up some periods as commas.

See (if you change some commas to periods):
1080i/50, 25p, 1080/59.94i/29.97p/23.98p, 720/50p, 25p, 720/59.94p/29.97p/23.98p

[Barry_Green]

It should become the S16mm of the digital cinema world. Glad to see it coming together so well.
I know what you're saying, but let's just make sure everyone else doesn't get confused -- the sensor (and the look) that the AF100 has, is 35mm sized, not S16 sized.

[hunter richards]

http://blog.panasonic-broadcast.com/wp-content/gallery/ag-af101/gal1.jpg

Reminds me of a Mamiya 645 when its all stripped down..

[Barry_Green]

Any waveform monitor in the LCD?
Yes, there's a waveform monitor in the LCD. And a vectorscope. And two levels of zebras. And the spotmeter.


Will they sell this camera with no lens to keep the price down and make all lenses optional?
That is the only way it will be sold. All lenses are optional, it's sold as body-only.

[xmephestox]

Has panasonic given an official sensitivity rating yet? 800 is kind of the new standard new with a lot of high end cameras, I wonder if they were able to do that to the af100 as well. 800 iso clean, and up to 2000 iso with a very acceptable noise threshold puts it right up there with a RED MX and Alexa.

[Barry_Green]

I'm thrilled with the specs and features! HD LCD! 1080/60p! Simultaneous HDMI/SDI! 1/4-20 ports! No moire!!!
I forgot to mention -- the HD-SDI output will also output 1080/24pSF! Don't know how I forgot that one in the initial report, but there are probably lots of things I forgot... :D


Barry, the only thing I would like to hear about is potential jello issues. I'd expect it would be "better" than a DSLR (since it's a different imager), but can we really expect to shoot handheld with the AF100?
If you can shoot handheld with an EX1 or EX3, then you will be able to shoot handheld with the AF100. Its rolling shutter feels to me to be at least as good as the EX series or the HPX370. But I haven't had a chance or a way to empirically test it against any other camcorder to see how it compares. I do know that it seems very minimal. I have seen a little bit when at 140mm full telephoto.

That said, optical image stabilization does help, and if you're using a lens that doesn't have stabilization, it might be a little trickier to pull off good handheld.

But it's vastly superior to the GH1 or 5D/7D in terms of rolling shutter.

[Noel Evans]

No. Somebody messed up some periods as commas.

See (if you change some commas to periods):
1080i/50, 25p, 1080/59.94i/29.97p/23.98p, 720/50p, 25p, 720/59.94p/29.97p/23.98p

Hah, I just woke up. But right you are. Cheers.

Havent been able to see one photo of the back. Anyone got one?

And look under the handle hot shoe... another hotshoe and screw mount. Very good.

[Barry_Green]

Barry, did Olympus 14-35 autofocus on this body?
Interesting question -- I tested a lot of lenses, so I have to try to remember this properly...

I think the answer is "yes and no." Yes, you can get the autofocus system to work. But no, it's nothing like the 14-140 lens's autofocus. It's noisy and visibly hunting and slow, and IIRC the only way you could get it to work was by holding down the PUSH AUTO button. I think putting it in full autofocus (using the auto/manual/infinity switch) didn't trigger autofocus. You had to hold the button down.

That's a pretty nice lens though. Very very sharp, nice & wide, and fast at f/2.0. But no manual iris ring, so you have to use the camcorder's wheel, and no image stabilization. Not a big deal at 14mm, but by the time you get to 35mm it'd be nice to have. But, again, this lens wasn't designed for video, so the autofocus isn't really video-appropriate. But it will work in a pinch.

[dop16mm]

I must say I like the removable hand grip and mounting holes. Opens it up to Panavision style side rails, with a custom block the hand grip could be re attached to rails and slid forward to match lens.

will there be a remote port for start stop? A custom cine-style hand grip with record button would be a cool aftermarket accessory.

[Barry_Green]

Wow. It's a Red One killer at Scarlet pricing. 1080 60p, uncompressed through HDSDI, no aliasing, etc. How's the CMOS wobble and skew?
Er, I don't know that I would call it a Red One killer! Especially at only 1/3 the price. The Red One still records 12-bit and raw, and can do smaller-frame slow-mo at up to 120fps.

But it's a lot smaller and more agile than a Red One. And when I say "no aliasing" I mean that it's not an issue. Sure, if you pixel-peep and hunt for it, you can find traces here and there, but you'll never see the big ugly rainbow moire. Then again, you can find at least as much aliasing in the HVX200, so -- as a practical matter, there's no aliasing to worry about.

For wobble and skew, it's minimal. It's not immune, and the same rules apply -- if you use a telephoto lens and move quickly, you'll see more than if you use a wide-angle lens and move slowly. But here's the thing -- it's never something that I ever had to worry about. I forgot about it, basically. You just don't think about it. It's not perfect, obviously, and there may be situations where it's an issue, but basically if you're okay with the EX1/EX3 level of skew, you should be good to go with the AF100.

It may actually be better than the EX1, I don't know -- didn't compare them side by side. But it's a huge improvement over the skew in, say, an HPX300 or HMC40 in 24p mode. It's probably in the same class as the Red/EX1.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Hi Barry. I'm sure you're tired, but if you have a moment:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2099973&postcount=38

[Barry_Green]

Awesome Barry as always ! When are you writing a book for the AF-100 ;)
As soon as I get home from Amsterdam! :D

Actually, more likely, I'll start on something after Felix Baumgartner jumps out of the Red Bull Stratos space capsule, as that's my current job.

[Barry_Green]

The AF-100 records to AVCHD, right? is that the same AVCHD that the HMC40 records to?
Yes and no. It's an AVCCAM camera so it has the same formats (well, it has HE and HA and PH mode, no HG mode). But its PH mode is enhanced to have uncompressed audio. None of the other AVCCAM cameras have uncompressed LPCM audio.


Barry (or anyone familiar with with cam) - are there any plans to release an AF-100 style camera with a more robust codec? AVCIntra, DVCProHD? A P2 version?
Welcome to frequently-asked-question #1. We've been hammering the Panasonic folks for quite a while about that. Look in the wishlist for the number of times people requested it. I think at this time, there is no chance that the AF100 will have a P2/AVC-Intra codec. So now I've started harping on them to bring out another model, say, an AF150 or something like that, that would be P2. I think a lot of folks would like to see that. But for whatever reason, this unit is going to be AVCCAM.

Of course, you could always hook up a nanoflash or a KiPro Mini to the AF100's HD-SDI or HDMI outputs.


Can't wait to see footage from this thing. Thanks for the info Barry.
I don't know when they'll release actual footage. Thing is, the camera's only about 70% done. If you saw footage today, it wouldn't even necessarily be representative of what the final footage will be. The stuff I shot isn't really designed to be "beauty footage" (I'm not Philip Bloom!) I was shooting test footage, including merciless brick building footage in an attempt to find the camera's limits and "break" it. I figured if I could find the limits and break it, and then report back to them, they'd have a better chance to fix it before release. So I don't know that releasing any of the footage that I shot would really be of much benefit for showing what the camcorder is capable of.

I'd like to do a proper studio shoot, the way folks are going to want to be shooting with it, to demonstrate what it's capable of. They did have someone from Germany shoot some nice semi-dramatic footage which they showed at the press conference; maybe they'll release some of that? I don't know.

[Barry_Green]

How did the 14-35 fair at it's widest point
Looked great to me. It's a great lens.


and can you go as far as a 10mm lens with out vignetting?
Certainly. I used an 8mm lens on it, a Peleng 8mm fisheye, with no vignetting at all. And apparently Panasonic is making an 8mm fisheye in m43 mount too, so yeah, 8mm is totally approachable.

Actually, they make even wider than that, they have a 7mm-14mm zoom.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

... Havent been able to see one photo of the back. Anyone got one? ...

Here you go:
http://urbanfoxtv.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-panasonic-af100af101.html

[Barry_Green]

Barry, for Christ's sake, are you sure???:cheesy:
Do you mean 60fps VFR in 1920x1080?
That's exactly what I mean. That's what I shot. I shot a bunch of 32fps, 40fps, 44fps, and 60fps stuff in 1080.

What it won't do is "live"-looking 1080/60p. But it will do 1080/24p @ up to 60fps, or 1080/30p @ up to 60fps, or 1080/25p @ up to 50fps.

Plus, it has 720p mode with VFR too.

So yes, it's 1920x1080 @ 60fps recording, with playback at 24p or 30p.

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

So yes, it's 1920x1080 @ 60fps recording, with playback at 24p or 30p.

Do you know any reason for this?
I know about AVCHD standards problems.
But from hardware POV it sounds nuts.
As I understand, if you use NLE with custom set fps it do not matter at all.
And Barry, send them my personal request to add two CinemaLike(tm) :-) fps at 48fps and 72fps with ability to combine frames in camera.

[Barry_Green]

Barry, how do you feel about the high ISO when comparing it to a DSLR.
Can't say, as the high ISOs were one of the things not available to test. They were in the menus, but not enabled yet. Remember, this is a *very early* prototype -- the first engineering sample that they've let anyone actually see. It's a newborn baby, so not everything is fully functional yet.


Do you think it's at least rated at a 800 ISO or less? or more?
Well, that depends on what you mean by "rated". I think the default is about 400, and the only ISOs I was able to test were 400, 640, and 800. And I'll say this, even though it doesn't make much sense -- there wasn't a substantial difference in noise between 400, 640, and 800. I shot colored scenes, I shot gray bars, and I hooked up a professional dedicated waveform monitor and examined the image on a line-by-line basis, looking for a spike in the noise signature. And while there may have been a minor difference, there certainly wasn't a substantial one, at least on this prototype.

EDIT -- but, guys, remember, this is a prototype! I've been thinking about this, and it's possible that the componentry in the camera might have been contributing a certain level of noise anyway, maybe on the SDI output. Maybe the recorded footage would show more of a difference in noise. I didn't record footage of test charts for hyper-analyzation, I was reviewing it live off a monitor. -- [/EDIT]

Basically, the camera appears to be very clean in the midtones and highlights. I could find some noise in the deepest blacks, but certainly not objectionable, at least at the 400 ISO I was shooting at. It's pretty clean. Not noise-free, and if you use DRS you'll definitely see a big jump in shadow noise (which should be expected, because it's probably exposing the shadows to as much gain as to make them equivalent to 3200 ISO!)

-- well, okay, so this is how I tested it -- I found the shadow noise, and I complained to the engineers and asked them to clean it up. And I said "I want it at least as clean as the HMC150, if not cleaner." So they brought out an HMC150 and hooked it up, and while the HMC150 is a pretty clean camcorder, it was way noisier than anything in the AF100's image! Once I saw that, I quit griping. I mean, I still want them to improve it to where it's completely noise-free, of course, but already it's very very very clean compared to an HPX170/HMC150, and over most of the tonal scale it's arguably noiseless. Not saying that there's not something there, but you'd have to be so anal-retentive that your butt's the size of the hindenburg in order to complain about noise in the mids or highlights!

If you pixel-peep for it, you'll find it. Especially if you go looking in the shadows, you will find noise. But again, the camera isn't done. They said the imaging was only at 70%. Let's let them get to 95% before we start making real judgements.


Does the noise patterning feel more filmic or is it that ugly fast moving colored noise to what Canon DSLRS do? No false color?
Not sure what you mean about "false color" - do you mean chroma noise? There doesn't appear to be anything in the way of chroma noise in what I saw. What noise is there, appears to be the finely-speckled luma noise, not the blotchy chroma noise (like what appears on the HVX200, for example). The HPX170 is much cleaner than the HVX200, and its noise is more of a fine texture and primarily luma noise. The AF100 has much less noise than an HPX170, and it's more of a similar luma character, not blotchy chroma noise with its attendant orange/red blotchiness.

[Barry_Green]

if af100 stays at 6 grand
European pricing was announced as "tentatively set to RRP at 4900 Euros". No indications were given on what US pricing will be.

[Barry_Green]

HD Magazine reports a list price for the AF101 of "£4,059.00 + VAT", but they don't say what's included for that price:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/9/10/new-cameras-and-prices-from-show-floor.html

Note that list prices are affected by many factors so you shouldn't do a simple currency conversion to your own local currency. I suspect we'll hear pricing for the US & other countries by the press conference later today.
Yeah, I don't know where HD Magazine is getting their info. The ONLY official pricing announced anywhere is "tentative suggested RRP of 4900 Euros". Anything else is simply not official or accurate.

[Barry_Green]

Wow: Better than "921,000 dots" (the HPX370 LCD's res)?
Yes.

That will be excellent if the final production AF100 cams include that feature!
I can't say what I was told, but I was told that it's better than the HPX370's. Well, let me hedge that -- I was told that either the LCD or the EVF was going to be better, but I don't remember which one. Either way, it should be pretty excellent. The days of the HVX200's LCD panel are finally completely behind us!

[Luis Caffesse]

The days of the HVX200's LCD panel are finally completely behind us!

I can't tell you how long I've waited to hear those words.
:)

[Barry_Green]

Is the SDI output 10-bits?
No answer was given. My guess is 8-bit, but we'll see. All the other AG-series cameras are 8-bit. (well, except the HPX370, but that's an AVC-Intra camcorder so it has to be 10-bit all the way through).

[Barry_Green]

Hi Barry: Did the press conference happen? Any interesting announcements? (It's now 11PM in Amsterdam.)
Press conference happened, not really any new announcements that I haven't already listed (except the "tentative" suggested retail price of 4900 euros).

They also talked about the HPX3100, which we already knew about, and the 3-D camera, which we already knew about. Showed 3D footage, talked about the end-to-end 3D production chain (they called it "Camera To Couch"). Lots of talk about switchers and remote cameras and stuff that I'm not really interested in. They said that they've pulled even with Sony in terms of overall market share, which is a huge accomplishment for Europe. They said they've sold 165,000 P2 cameras worldwide, which is a huge uptake, and they had several guest speakers commenting about how they're using their products (of which I was one; I got to go up and tell about my experiences with the AF100). Someone from Sky told about how they're building a whole studio out of P2/AVC-Intra products, which was pretty big news for Europe. They talked about a new version of the P2 Mobile (HPM200) and that they have a studio deck version of it, but ... really, it was all fairly well-trod territory, most of it having been listed in the press releases already.

[Barry_Green]

I shudder to think about where Barry might be at 11PM in Amsterdam. :D
Dude, I grew up in Las Vegas. And I >never< saw stuff there, like they have here.

Was shooting in downtown and we walked by a cafe that had a "no smoking" sign. Well, at least, that's what I thought it was: it had a picture of a cigarette with a circle and a slash through it." And I thought -- wait -- this is Europe, I thought you were >required< to smoke? So I looked closer and it said "Smoking allowed. No tobacco."

Ah, I get it...

But yeah, that was the tame stuff. Amsterdam is not a shy town.

[Barry_Green]

Peter, interestingly, the specs on that landing page tout, "Twin HD-SDI output(L/R)". Huh? I'm guessing this isn't Dual Link 4:4:4.

Barry?
Uh, no idea what that means. There's only one HD-SDI port on it. There's HD-SDI and also HDMI, but ... I think you're looking at some sort of marketing typo there.

There's no beamsplitter, there's no 3-D, it's a conventional cinema camera.

[Barry_Green]

Recording format HE only for 1080/59 and 1080/50 - thats confuses me a little. Does it mean you can only record those formats in HE mode at a measly 6mbps?
No, it's the opposite -- it means you can only record 6mbps in 59.94i or 50i. Meaning, no access to 1080@24p/25p/30p or 720p.

HE and HA mode are only for 1080 interlaced mode. PH mode is the only one that supports 1080p and 720p.


And what is 97P/23 etc? Does it mean you can shoot 97 fps into a 23fps recording?
I had >no< idea what you were talking about, so I looked at the blog, and it looks like they used a "," instead of a "." Read it again, but substitute periods for the commas, and it makes a lot more sense:

1080i/50, 25p, 1080/59.94i/29.97p/23.98p, 720/50p, 25p, 720/59.94p/29.97p/23.98p

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Barry, thanks very much for all the info!

Aside: Maybe this thread should be moved to the new AF100 category on DVXuser, to keep all the info/threads in one place?

[Barry_Green]

Has panasonic given an official sensitivity rating yet? 800 is kind of the new standard new with a lot of high end cameras, I wonder if they were able to do that to the af100 as well. 800 iso clean, and up to 2000 iso with a very acceptable noise threshold puts it right up there with a RED MX and Alexa.
No official rating has been set yet or standardized. But from what I experienced on the early prototype, 800 looks to be pretty darn usable.

[Barry_Green]

will there be a remote port for start stop?
Yes there is, and there's also remote control for iris and for focus (on autofocus-enabled lenses of course). Same remote controls as a DVX/HVX/HPX170/HMC150.

[Joe Lawry]

Do we know officially what magnification you get with this camera and nikon lenses yet? sorry if this has already been confirmed.

[Barry_Green]

Do you know any reason for this?
I know about AVCHD standards problems.
But from hardware POV it sounds nuts.
As I understand, if you use NLE with custom set fps it do not matter at all.
And Barry, send them my personal request to add two CinemaLike(tm) :-) fps at 48fps and 72fps with ability to combine frames in camera.
I don't know what the reasoning is. But I can answer at least part of your second question -- it already has 48fps...

[Barry_Green]

Do we know officially what magnification you get with this camera and nikon lenses yet? sorry if this has already been confirmed.
Depends on what you're comparing it to.

As compared to a 35mm movie camera, it has a Cinema Crop Factor of 1.18.

As compared to a 35mm still camera (aka "full frame"), it has a Crop Factor of 2.0.

[Joe Lawry]

Cheers, i was comparing it to 35mm still.

definitely going to want to keep a tokina 11-16mm 2.8 handy.. if not wider.

[Barry_Green]

definitely going to want to keep a tokina 11-16mm 2.8 handy.. if not wider.
As said before, Panasonic has a 7mm-14mm zoom if you want a wide, wide zoom. It's f/4, which is only a stop slower than the Tokina, but it's a lot wider, so if you need wide, it's a possibility.

[dcloud]

hey barry, imma ask again.. colored peaking? im guessing its not there eh

[greymog]

I'm sorry but I want to get this right while the topic is up, kinda. I'm very confused about something.

I get that FF35 is the stills standard, (5D) and mft is close to s35 which is the motion picture standard. I get that the crop is different from full frame to half frame, for stills lenses.

My question is, which crop should I pick? Is a cinema lens 50 different than a stills 50? does a stills 50 give the same fov as a cine 50 on a motion picture camera's frame? I'm confused. I get the crop factor, but i don't know which crop i'm working with. My objective is to match motion picture frame, or half frame as i read, and that would mean i'm cropping for 1.18 when i pick glass? very confused, i don't even know if this question belongs here, sorry.

all the best, congrats on the af100 panny, and congrats and thanks to barry for using it and sharing all this insight.

T

[noirist]

As soon as I get home from Amsterdam! :D

Actually, more likely, I'll start on something after Felix Baumgartner jumps out of the Red Bull Stratos space capsule, as that's my current job.
Go Barry! That's my dream job!

[greymog]

I'm sorry again, I think you explained pretty darn clearly when you said 'cinema crop factor', but i just wanna be sure. You break things down really, really well.

So if i finally found a 24, and i'm out to make a movie that looks like it was shot in s35, i'm gonna treat that lens like a 28? ish? like a 24x1.18?

[Faust]

That's exactly what I mean. That's what I shot. I shot a bunch of 32fps, 34fps, 40fps, 44fps, and 60fps stuff in 1080.

What it won't do is "live"-looking 1080/60p. But it will do 1080/24p @ up to 60fps, or 1080/30p @ up to 60fps, or 1080/25p @ up to 50fps.

Plus, it has 720p mode with VFR too.

So yes, it's 1920x1080 @ 60fps recording, with playback at 24p or 30p.It will be the first professional camcorder able to shoot such a frame rate at FullHD resolution...
If no line-doubling or some other interpolation technique is applied I think this new sensor has a huge work to do.
A great and unique feature, anyway.

Oh, BTW, any info about sensor's scanning mode?
I mean: does it line-skip as in HDSLRs or does it scan the full 12 Mpixel area for a later downconversion to 1920x1080?

[Berk]

OjhpwWUTCao

[Kobas]

wow , thats ugly .

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

wow , thats ugly .
Actually, I think Barry is look'n good in that video.

Oh, you mean the camera? Its beauty is more than skin deep.

[bluesgeek]

<----------biting his nails waiting for Barry to drop it.

[Justyn]

Will it also use the 170/150 batteries? Any specs on the minimums for the SDHC or SDXC cards?

That's great news on using the controls from the 150 and such. That would be a great bonus as well.

You are doing an amazingly admirable job and I know all of us appreciate your dilligence and work on our behalf. Cheers and take care.

[bwhitz]

wow , thats ugly .

Why do so many people comment on what the camera looks like? Isn't that the lest important issue? Or are you one of those people that spends $800 on a T2i and then $7000 on worthless overpriced matte boxes and fallow focuses that essentially do nothing but make the camera "look movie studio like"?

It looks fine just being a block with a hole for a lens. What else do you want... a spoiler and under-body neon's?

[Steve Kahn]

This is great news! Personally, I can't wait to get one of these. I'm going to the DV Expo at the end of this month. Looking forward to seeing the AF100 up close.

On a side note: Any word about a full frame sensor camcorder from Canon? I can't believe they are going just to give away this market.

[mcgeedigital]

Why do so many people comment on what the camera looks like? Isn't that the lest important issue? Or are you one of those people that spends $800 on a T2i and then $7000 on worthless overpriced matte boxes and fallow focuses that essentially do nothing but make the camera "look movie studio like"?


Matte boxes and follow focuses do much more than make a camera seem bigger.

Please educate yourself.

[gandalfrodo]

Any word if they're designing an optional manual/servo zoom lens that could be attached or if there are any good options out there already that won't break the bank?

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

Oh, BTW, any info about sensor's scanning mode?
I mean: does it line-skip as in HDSLRs or does it scan the full 12 Mpixel area for a later downconversion to 1920x1080?

GH1 don't do line skipping, so, I expect the same from upcoming GH2 and AF-100.
Possible improvements are:
1) Changing pixel binning mode. Like 1D FIR with long window.
2) Adjusting source frame size to be as close as possible to 1920x1080.
3) 720 modes can be made by downscaling using very good bilinear filtering logic in LSI from 1920 RAW source.

With about 90% probability all tree improvements are implemented.

I do not mention that they could set new AA filter :-)

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

Any word if they're designing an optional manual/servo zoom lens that could be attached or if there are any good options out there already that won't break the bank?

You can always mount B4 lenses for 2/3", with 2x converter they work ok on m43.
Sometimes in the dark future Panasonic will make windowed sensor mode for c-mount and old TV lenses :-)

[dop16mm]

I can't believe all the comments about what it looks like. What are the new RED's if not black boxes. If both the screen and viewfinder are high rez enough to focus with, that will be more than enough for me. It comes with a top handle, side handle, viewfinder and screen, what more do you want. Panasonic doesn't make a lens that will appeal to everyone so they leave it off, but there are adapters for just about anything so get what you like.

[Kobas]

Why do so many people comment on what the camera looks like? Isn't that the lest important issue? Or are you one of those people that spends $800 on a T2i and then $7000 on worthless overpriced matte boxes and fallow focuses that essentially do nothing but make the camera "look movie studio like"?

It looks fine just being a block with a hole for a lens. What else do you want... a spoiler and under-body neon's?
its not that i cant settle below an amazing blonde , i dont mind a decent looking brunette , but this is big fat mom !! .

lol no seriously , i know the looks doesnt matter , but for 6 $ ~ i think they could design it better but yeah it doesnt matter .

[bluesgeek]

Matte boxes and follow focuses do much more than make a camera seem bigger.

True that. They actually do make them bigger. :2vrolijk_08:

[agcohn]

It will be the first professional camcorder able to shoot such a frame rate at FullHD resolution...
If no line-doubling or some other interpolation technique is applied I think this new sensor has a huge work to do.
A great and unique feature, anyway.

Oh, BTW, any info about sensor's scanning mode?
I mean: does it line-skip as in HDSLRs or does it scan the full 12 Mpixel area for a later downconversion to 1920x1080?
If the sensor can't do standard 1080/60p, I'm not sure how it can do 1080/24p @ 60 fps VFR, unless it's some sort of burst mode that it can't keep up for long.

Can we confirm that it isn't just uprezzing the 720p VFR modes for 1080p?

[yabyum]

OjhpwWUTCao

man this thing is gonna be sooooooooooooooo coool!!!!

now just gotta bust my ass on projects so i have enough money to buy it :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

only disappointment is the 2.0x crop like the gh1. was hoping for a 5d full frame but alas! still going to be amazing

[bgundu]

can the second SD slot do redundant backups?

[BFever]

I like the shape and look of this camera. It looks like I'll be able to rig up much of my dslr rig I'm putting together with the AF100 as well. It's simple, at least there are no racing stripes.

[John Caballero]

Thanks again Barry Green!

[dmpsk8]

killer

[Emanuel]

Dude, I grew up in Las Vegas. And I >never< saw stuff there, like they have here.

Was shooting in downtown and we walked by a cafe that had a "no smoking" sign. Well, at least, that's what I thought it was: it had a picture of a cigarette with a circle and a slash through it." And I thought -- wait -- this is Europe, I thought you were >required< to smoke? So I looked closer and it said "Smoking allowed. No tobacco."

Ah, I get it...

But yeah, that was the tame stuff. Amsterdam is not a shy town.LOL

As matter of fact, it is not. After Amsterdam only Hamburg, a second home. But I am in Rome these days. If you'll decide to fly a couple of hours and come to Mediterranean, let me know via PM. It would actually be nice to finally meet you in person beyond the forums.

E. :-)

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/497/29917132549113412011361.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/29917132549113412011361.jpg/)

[Jarek Zabczynski]

The AF-100 plus the KiPro Mini seems like a good combo. How would the two work in the 1080p 60p VFR modes? I'm guess not well if at all.

[Barry_Green]

hey barry, imma ask again.. colored peaking? im guessing its not there eh
Sorry, didn't necessarily see every question. All those responses were typed out at 2:00 a.m.-ish.

There was no colored peaking in the unit I tested. However, I pushed heavily for such a feature, and again, this camera is only 70% done, so -- will it be there in the final version? Maybe.
EDIT - on the show floor they demonstrated to me that there indeed *is* colored peaking! So either I missed the feature entirely in the menus, or it was enabled in that prototype but not in the one I used? Either way, doesn't matter, it <does> have colored peaking![/EDIT]

I hope people understand the way that a preview/review on a prototype has to be done -- I won't be talking about things that don't work, or software features that are missing -- that feedback goes to the engineers, not to the public. I will talk about what is there, and what works well, but if something doesn't work there's no purpose in waving a red flag to the forum because it could be a complete non-issue to the end user, because they still have a chance to fix or add or improve. And, this being the Internet, sometimes things get a little blown out of proportion and flames get fanned and the next thing you know everyone's up in arms about something that may actually turn out to be nothing.

On the other hand, there is the danger that even though something is enabled in a prototype, that doesn't necessarily guarantee that it will be featured in the finished model. If they discover some bug that they can't fix or something, they may have to disable a certain feature in order to make a 100% reliable product. So everything I have listed as being "in there" should be understood by everyone to be "likely" to be included in the finished version, but not necessarily "guaranteed". I think everything I've discussed will make it into the final released product, but the only way we'll know for sure is when the product is actually released.

More formally and with legalese: I am not a Panasonic employee, I do not speak for the company, and my words cannot be taken to bind the company to any obligations. Any purchase decision has to be made based on the printed specifications released by the company themselves. Until then, "everything is subject to change." Or, put another way, just 'cause I said it's in there, doesn't guarantee that it will be in the final released product. Probably will be, very likely it will be, but not guaranteed.

So -- the camcorder is not perfect. There are features I'd love to see added, there are things that weren't working properly yet, etc. I have given much feedback to the engineers about those issues (which is, after all, the whole point of having someone test an unreleased product). But I can say that between what's in there, what they've said they'll add in, and when they perfect what it's already doing pretty well, that makes me very optimistic that this will be a major hit.

[Barry_Green]

I get that FF35 is the stills standard, (5D) and mft is close to s35 which is the motion picture standard.
Well, not really -- the motion picture standard has traditionally been Academy 35mm, not S35. S35 is bigger than normal. Normal 35mm cinema film is a 22mm wide frame, and S35 is a 24mm wide frame.


My question is, which crop should I pick? Is a cinema lens 50 different than a stills 50?
There is no difference. A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens. If you put a 50mm stills camera lens on a movie camera, and then replaced it with a 50mm cinema lens, they will look exactly the same.


does a stills 50 give the same fov as a cine 50 on a motion picture camera's frame?
Yes, when both are used on the same camera, they will deliver identical FOV and DOF results.


I get the crop factor, but i don't know which crop i'm working with.
Which is why I call the crop factor a "crap factor". It just causes confusion. I say ignore it and instead think in terms of a cinema prime lens set, which would include a 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm. Those are the most common focal lengths used in cinema shooting. Who cares what the lens looks like on a still camera? You're not using a still camera, you're using a cinema camera, so use cinema focal lengths. An extended cinema set would add 18mm, maybe 21mm, and 100mm. With those 7, you've got a pretty complete set.


My objective is to match motion picture frame, or half frame as i read, and that would mean i'm cropping for 1.18 when i pick glass?
Correct, but almost irrelevant. The cinema crop factor is so minor that you can just about ignore it. I mean, if you put a 20mm lens on a cinema camera and shoot from 10 feet, you could get the same results on an AF100 by either a) using a 23mm lens, or b) use the same 20mm lens, and shoot from 11.8 feet back instead. Really it's no big deal. It's very slightly different, but it's not some big scary thing you have to worry about. You just use either a very slightly wider lens or set the camera very slightly further back.

[Barry_Green]

So if i finally found a 24, and i'm out to make a movie that looks like it was shot in s35, i'm gonna treat that lens like a 28? ish? like a 24x1.18?
Yes, exactly. Or just back the camera up 18%.

[Barry_Green]

Oh, BTW, any info about sensor's scanning mode?
I mean: does it line-skip as in HDSLRs or does it scan the full 12 Mpixel area for a later downconversion to 1920x1080?
No information was given. But, let's be clear -- no actual information has ever been given on how DSLR sensors work either. No engineer or chip designer who is "in the know" has ever confirmed that DSLRs "line skip." We THINK they do, it seems a reasonable guess based on the end results, but we don't KNOW it to be so.

Secondly -- does it really matter? If you get 1080p resolution with practically no aliasing, do you care if it does it through line skipping, or scaling, or osmosis, or refraction, or teleportation, or black holes and time travel? I don't. I just want a great sharp problem-free 1080p image. So far it looks like it delivers that. If it does it through line-skipping, then they do a darn good job of line-skipping.

Again, though, final judgement must be reserved for the final product, final judgements cannot be made off of a barely-born prototype. I haven't put it up against a 4K res chart, for example, so my judgement on the sharpness is not based on empirical scientific data (which would be pointless to gather at this stage anyway) but rather it's based on looking at crisp sharp 1080p HD on a 1080p monitor and saying "dang, that looks S H A R P".

[Barry_Green]

<----------biting his nails waiting for Barry to drop it.
Oh, you don't know the half of it. During the press conference they had one there on a display so I went over and grabbed it and I was wildly waving it around and then I got to the point about discussing monitoring options and I wanted to show the HD-SDI so I pried open the cover and ... yanked a chunk of the camera off. Because it wasn't a camera at all -- it was a mockup! So I broke the mockup, in front of the entire broadcast industry press. A little embarrassing... :) And as I was waving it around I could feel the lens getting a little wobbly, and I thought any minute now that was gonna fall off. So, yeah, lesson learned -- find out whether you're demonstrating a functional version, or just an expertly-crafted mockup!

[dcloud]

any sample screenies & footies soon?

[Chris Light]

Oh, you don't know the half of it. During the press conference they had one there on a display so I went over and grabbed it and I was wildly waving it around and then I got to the point about discussing monitoring options and I wanted to show the HD-SDI so I pried open the cover and ... yanked a chunk of the camera off. Because it wasn't a camera at all -- it was a mockup! So I broke the mockup, in front of the entire broadcast industry press. A little embarrassing... :) And as I was waving it around I could feel the lens getting a little wobbly, and I thought any minute now that was gonna fall off. So, yeah, lesson learned -- find out whether you're demonstrating a functional version, or just an expertly-crafted mockup!
sorry for your embarrassment, but i laughed at this story.:embarasse

[Mike McNeese]

Ok, I get it. It's not fully functional.

So, since it's 70% complete, and considering it's now "used," I'm prepared to offer $4,000 for your prototype. Lemme know what they say.

[greymog]

Well, not really -- the motion picture standard has traditionally been Academy 35mm, not S35. S35 is bigger than normal. Normal 35mm cinema film is a 22mm wide frame, and S35 is a 24mm wide frame.


There is no difference. A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens. If you put a 50mm stills camera lens on a movie camera, and then replaced it with a 50mm cinema lens, they will look exactly the same.


Yes, when both are used on the same camera, they will deliver identical FOV and DOF results.


Which is why I call the crop factor a "crap factor". It just causes confusion. I say ignore it and instead think in terms of a cinema prime lens set, which would include a 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm. Those are the most common focal lengths used in cinema shooting. Who cares what the lens looks like on a still camera? You're not using a still camera, you're using a cinema camera, so use cinema focal lengths. An extended cinema set would add 18mm, maybe 21mm, and 100mm. With those 7, you've got a pretty complete set.


Correct, but almost irrelevant. The cinema crop factor is so minor that you can just about ignore it. I mean, if you put a 20mm lens on a cinema camera and shoot from 10 feet, you could get the same results on an AF100 by either a) using a 23mm lens, or b) use the same 20mm lens, and shoot from 11.8 feet back instead. Really it's no big deal. It's very slightly different, but it's not some big scary thing you have to worry about. You just use either a very slightly wider lens or set the camera very slightly further back.

My god. thank you.

it's the next day here too, i jus saw how many q's i asked. finally. confirmation.

that af100 is small huh. my favorite thing about it so far. :)

and i dont think it's fugly at all.

[timbook2]

thanks for all the info Barry!

I dont know if its been said but is the AF100 coming with some kit lens?
Lets hope the price drops a little...
And did I read right? the sensor is NOT the same as in the GH1 ??? its bigger???

I am definately getting one of these instead of another GH2 .....and I am very very much intereted in the P2 version of it like you suggested.


enjoy Amsterdam and if you ever come to Berlin, let me know.....

[philiplipetz]

John Twigt reported at DVifo.net http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-avccam-camcorders/483643-panasonic-ag-af100-online.html:

I spoke Jan Crittenden today at the IBC (just around the corner from my company) and she said the list-price would be around 5.000 Us dollars (without lens). Seems very competitive indeed, at least to me.
Shipping will start in december according to her.

I played a bit with the prototype (with a Zeiss Prime 35mm lens, very nice indeed!) and his a good low light performance, it actually will have a sort of ISO value setting, (different from the normail gain settings) but it was not yet implemented on this prototype. (just 70% finished Jan said) Image on the monitor was very good and sharp as hell with a amazing depth of field (also with apertures around t8)

[Faust]

Possible improvements are:
1) Changing pixel binning mode. Like 1D FIR with long window.
2) Adjusting source frame size to be as close as possible to 1920x1080.
3) 720 modes can be made by downscaling using very good bilinear filtering logic in LSI from 1920 RAW source.

With about 90% probability all tree improvements are implemented.

I do not mention that they could set new AA filter :-)Thanks, Vitaliy, I wasn't aware of GH1 working mode and, yes, aliasing could be strongly reduced by combining multiple filtering methods at the very top of the video processing chain.
If the sensor can't do standard 1080/60p, I'm not sure how it can do 1080/24p @ 60 fps VFR, unless it's some sort of burst mode that it can't keep up for long.

Can we confirm that it isn't just uprezzing the 720p VFR modes for 1080p?Uprezzing is what I was afraid of... But it would be a joke!...
Secondly -- does it really matter? If you get 1080p resolution with practically no aliasing, do you care if it does it through line skipping, or scaling, or osmosis, or refraction, or teleportation, or black holes and time travel? I don't. I just want a great sharp problem-free 1080p image. So far it looks like it delivers that. If it does it through line-skipping, then they do a darn good job of line-skipping.LOL...You're right, Barry, the end justifies the means.
Did you checked for strobing in progressive modes (24p, 30p)?
It would be great if AF100/101 progressive wasn't as jerky as in Hmc151...

[timbook2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhpwWUTCao&feature=player_embedded

barry interviewed....

[Chris Light]

timbook...please read the whole thread...i'll paraphrase....

no kit lens. will be sold body only.

sensor will not be bigger. just newer.

also, price drops are nonexistent, since it's not available, but since only a Euro price has been announced officially, expect it not to drop.

[dcloud]

list down to 5000??! thats very exciting news! :) street price owuld be lower! :)

[Chris Light]

super.

[Barry_Green]

hey barry, imma ask again.. colored peaking? im guessing its not there eh
Hah! The engineers showed me today that yes, it already does have colored peaking! I didn't even use it, but yes, it's there.

[Barry_Green]

On a side note: Any word about a full frame sensor camcorder from Canon? I can't believe they are going just to give away this market.
Then you don't know Canon very well. Canon will probably do it sometime around 2012 or 2013. Look at their XF300 series -- they just now finally introduced a tapeless pro camcorder -- FIVE YEARS after Panasonic did. Canon always trails the others by at least two years. They just had their big once-every-five-years Global Expo, and there was not a hint of any large-sensor video camera.

[Barry_Green]

Will it also use the 170/150 batteries?
It uses 150 batteries.


Any specs on the minimums for the SDHC or SDXC cards?
Class 4.

[Barry_Green]

Any word if they're designing an optional manual/servo zoom lens that could be attached or if there are any good options out there already that won't break the bank?
Panasonic Broadcast doesn't make lenses. They offer Fujinon and Canon lenses. The Lumix lens is coming from the consumer group. I doubt there will be any servo-driven lenses for the AF100.

[Barry_Green]

can the second SD slot do redundant backups?
I don't think so. I think it's just for relay recording. I have begged them and hassled them and threatened them and kicked them in the shins to give us simultaneous recording, but I don't think it's gonna happen. But then again, we're still at 70%, we won't know for sure until they get to 100%. But I'm not counting on it.

[Barry_Green]

any sample screenies & footies soon?
Not really any point, because it's not ready yet. It's all prototype. They want to put their best foot forward.

The german stuff does look pretty good and they're showing it in the booth, I'll have to ask 'em if they plan on releasing it, but I wouldn't count on it. I'm sure they will want to go through a few more prototype stages before they publish footage.

[Barry_Green]

sorry for your embarrassment, but i laughed at this story.:embarasse
Hey, so did I, and so did everyone else in the room. It was profoundly awesome. I was all "And, it has this excellent SDI port" - pry - clunk - uh-oh - "er, well, it would have one, if this was an actual camera. Instead, this is a mockup, and I just broke it." Sigh.
:)

[Barry_Green]

that af100 is small huh. my favorite thing about it so far. :)

It's actually bigger than I was expecting. Seems about HVX200-sized, excluding the lens. It's bigger than the body of the HMC150/HPX170.

[Barry_Green]

I dont know if its been said but is the AF100 coming with some kit lens?
No lens will be offered with it, at least not at this point. Who knows if they'll make a bundle with the GH1 lens or not?


And did I read right? the sensor is NOT the same as in the GH1 ??? its bigger???
The sensor is definitely not the same as the GH1. All the fixed-pattern noise and vertical streaking are GONE, the noise performance is better, it's just better in all ways. But the sensor is the same size as the GH1; it's not bigger than the GH1's, but both the AF100 and GH1 sensors are bigger than the standard Four Thirds chip. They're about 19mm wide, instead of the Four Thirds standard of 17.3mm.

[Barry_Green]

John Twigt reported at DVifo.net http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-avccam-camcorders/483643-panasonic-ag-af100-online.html:

I spoke Jan Crittenden today at the IBC (just around the corner from my company) and she said the list-price would be around 5.000 Us dollars (without lens). Seems very competitive indeed, at least to me.
Um, I don't know about that. It's "about" 5,000 Euros, but I don't know that the US version will be 5,000 dollars! 5,000 Euros is about 6,000 US dollars (give or take) and they've always said "under $6,000". But I will ask.


it actually will have a sort of ISO value setting, (different from the normail gain settings) but it was not yet implemented on this prototype.
Actually how it will work is that the AF100 has the FILM CAM/VIDEO CAM menu item, just like the HPX170/HVX200. So when you choose FILM CAM, you get selectable ISO. When you choose VIDEO CAM, you adjust gain in dB.


Image on the monitor was very good and sharp as hell with a amazing depth of field (also with apertures around t8)
Yep. And that's with a lens with a focal length of just 35mm. It gets insane when you use an 85mm lens at f/1.4.

[Barry_Green]

list down to 5000??! thats very exciting news! :) street price owuld be lower! :)
Hold the horses, guys. I do not believe this is accurate. I will check, but as far as I know there has been NO announcement of a US list price!

[Barry_Green]

Did you checked for strobing in progressive modes (24p, 30p)?
It would be great if AF100/101 progressive wasn't as jerky as in Hmc151...
Strobing in progressive is exactly the same as any other progressive camcorder or film camera. 24p on an AF100 strobes exactly the same as 24fps film.

Well, actually, it is very slightly different (in a better way) because when the background is out of focus, the effect of the strobing is slightly smoothed over, versus when it's crisply in focus. So if you had 35mm film at f/16, and an HMC150, they'd strobe exactly the same. But if the 35mm film was at f/4 and the HMC150 was at f/4, you might be a little less bothered by the strobing on the 35mm because the background would be softer.

That's the working theory anyway. Someday I'll do a split-screen side-by-side and test that out, but I think it makes sense.

[powervideo]

Strobing in progressive is exactly the same as any other progressive camcorder or film camera. 24p on an AF100 strobes exactly the same as 24fps film.


Barry, there's a different kind of strobing that is inherent to all the DLSR's I've shot with. It's not the strobing that I see with standard 25P shooting on my Varicam or SDX900. It's a weird "intraframe" strobe or stutter that happens when you pan the DSLR camera. I've seen it evident from the Canon 7D to the GH1. I suspect it is a CMOS or processing issue where there is just not enough DSP power to process the real time video; or it may just be a scanning speed issue with the CMOS itself.

Because of this, I like to keep the subject pretty static in the frame and avoid too much tilt/panning. Have you noticed the difference between these DSLR's and your HPX500 or HVX200? To me it's like night and day. It's not a deal breaker and I will be first in line for an AF100 regardless, but I hope the "intraframe" strobing effect of the GH1 is not duplicated here in the AF100.

Several of my DOP colleagues agree it is different from the strobing you see in broadcast 2/3" progressive scan cameras, but it is definitely there.

[GRENCH]

Hey Barry,

Question (Sorry if you have covered this). With the size of the sensor in the AF-100 what are the full range of lenses or should I say mount types (PL, Bayonet, etc.) that can be used on it. I've read threads about the using machined Fujion and other really cool fast lenses on the GH1. Will these type of mods prove useful with the AF-100.



Barry, there's a different kind of strobing that is inherent to all the DLSR's I've shot with. It's not the strobing that I see with standard 25P shooting on my Varicam or SDX900. It's a weird "intraframe" strobe or stutter that happens when you pan the DSLR camera. I've seen it evident from the Canon 7D to the GH1. I suspect it is a CMOS or processing issue where there is just not enough DSP power to process the real time video; or it may just be a scanning speed issue with the CMOS itself.

Hey powervideo,

Is this what your talking about when you speak of strobing? Here is a video I shot directed that ended up giving me a weird strobe effect but I actually liked for this video so I kept it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5mpJ3eonYo

[danielc]

yes, i know what kind of strobing you may mean. when you pan its like the image cant keep up to the camera and is jumping to catch up as you pan. HDV i found has this problem as well on the 7D as thats the only HDSLR i have tried. if this is evident, which i dont think it will be, it will not look nice on pans. barry, could you confirm this on what you have seen thus far.

i am also interested in the adapters. is this something panasonic will have available or are they already made by other companies? i would be using nikon mount zeiss mainly. i just hope its a beefy adapter and not a slim metal piece that wont hold the lens tight after a couple lens changes(as do many DSLR adapters do making FF work useless).

Thanks Barry, great coverage and a good read over here,

dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB1UqGmZdcg

-also for some upclose images of the camera. looks solid thats for sure, and the CP.2 lens looks very nice on it.

[gustavo_viral]

Which is why I call the crop factor a "crap factor". It just causes confusion. I say ignore it and instead think in terms of a cinema prime lens set, which would include a 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm. Those are the most common focal lengths used in cinema shooting. Who cares what the lens looks like on a still camera? You're not using a still camera, you're using a cinema camera, so use cinema focal lengths. An extended cinema set would add 18mm, maybe 21mm, and 100mm. With those 7, you've got a pretty complete set.


Correct, but almost irrelevant. The cinema crop factor is so minor that you can just about ignore it. I mean, if you put a 20mm lens on a cinema camera and shoot from 10 feet, you could get the same results on an AF100 by either a) using a 23mm lens, or b) use the same 20mm lens, and shoot from 11.8 feet back instead. Really it's no big deal. It's very slightly different, but it's not some big scary thing you have to worry about. You just use either a very slightly wider lens or set the camera very slightly further back.

Sorry, i just could not understand that yet.

Is the crop factor about 2x or not? To achieve the 50mm FOV, do i have to use a 25mm lens ou not?

This a lot confusion for me as this stills make me wonder if it was better to invest in a full frame camera.

Thanks for the infos Barry!

[timbook2]

The sensor is definitely not the same as the GH1. All the fixed-pattern noise and vertical streaking are GONE, the noise performance is better, it's just better in all ways. But the sensor is the same size as the GH1; it's not bigger than the GH1's, but both the AF100 and GH1 sensors are bigger than the standard Four Thirds chip. They're about 19mm wide, instead of the Four Thirds standard of 17.3mm.

thanks Barry!

[dcloud]

Sorry, i just could not understand that yet.

Is the crop factor about 2x or not? To achieve the 50mm FOV, do i have to use a 25mm lens ou not?

This a lot confusion for me as this stills make me wonder if it was better to invest in a full frame camera.

Thanks for the infos Barry!

if your reference is full frame, yes its 2x
barry's point is, dont get hunged up on focal lengths. just know that the lower the number, he wider it is.

[bgundu]

Sorry, i just could not understand that yet.

Is the crop factor about 2x or not? To achieve the 50mm FOV, do i have to use a 25mm lens ou not?

This a lot confusion for me as this stills make me wonder if it was better to invest in a full frame camera.

Thanks for the infos Barry!

Ok here's the deal. Full frame dslr sensor sizes are bigger than cinema 35mm. So if you are comparing a 50mm lens from a full frame still camera, then yes it will be 100mm on the af100. But if you are talking cinema lenses - a 50mm will pretty much behave the same.

Bob

[Faust]

Hey, at 2:16 there's a CGA-D54s battery (the one for 100/200/170s series) at the back of the AF101.
Still anything for sure about the battery type, then?
I have Hpx171 and I would be very happy with CGA type...

aB1UqGmZdcg

[gustavo_viral]

Ok here's the deal. Full frame dslr sensor sizes are bigger than cinema 35mm. So if you are comparing a 50mm lens from a full frame still camera, then yes it will be 100mm on the af100. But if you are talking cinema lenses - a 50mm will pretty much behave the same.

Bob

Thanks bob, so what about the lenses we can buy?
How can i know the diference between a cinema lenses and a dslr lenses? The 50mm canons for example... how they act on a m4/3 sensor?

[Mirezzi]

Ok here's the deal. Full frame dslr sensor sizes are bigger than cinema 35mm. So if you are comparing a 50mm lens from a full frame still camera, then yes it will be 100mm on the af100. But if you are talking cinema lenses - a 50mm will pretty much behave the same.

Bob

Yes, the 50mm lens will be 100mm on the AF100 in terms of framing / FOV, but that does not mean the 50mm will magically share the DoF characteristics of a ~100mm lens. I think it's important to keep this in mind. In other words, if you like the way your ~100mm lens looks on a full frame still camera, slapping a 50mm lens on your AF100 won't approximate what you got from your ~100mm lens on a full frame setup. I think Barry's basic reasoning is that you shouldn't overthink crop factor. Get a range of primes or a suitable zoom lens that covers most the basics (e.g. - from ~14mm through ~85mm) and you'll likely be happy with the latitude and results.

I might be horribly wrong about my interpretation of crop factor, so somebody please chime in if I am.

[LoganMackay]

Yes, the 50mm lens will be 100mm on the AF100 in terms of framing, but that does not mean the 50mm will magically share the DoF characteristics of a ~100mm lens. I think it's important to keep this in mind. In other words, if you like the way your ~100mm lens looks on a full frame still camera, slapping a 50mm lens on your AF100 won't approximate what you got from your ~100mm lens on a full frame setup. I think Barry's basic reasoning is that you shouldn't overthink crop factor. Get a range of primes or a suitable zoom lens that covers most the basics (e.g. - from ~14mm through ~85mm) and you'll likely be happy with the latitude and results.

I might be horribly wrong about my interpretation of crop factor, so somebody please chime in if I am.


You have the right idea for sure. I think people have become really confused with all the different sensor sizes, but I think people really need to focus on the comparison between s35 and 4/3 size. The size of s35 film and the 4/3 sensor are so close that it is negligible to even really worry about the math. Like Barry suggested, just backup a bit and you will get the same effect as changing your lens.

[john deaver]

I think the fact that the handle and hand strap side come off is brilliant.

I think it will be about 2 months before someone comes up with a replacement side plate with a zoom toggle with a mechanism to drive the zoom or focus rings on some of the current and legacy lenses.

Im thinking like some sort of PTO port for lack of a better term.

Im also hoping that Panasonic doesn't cripple an upcoming GH2 to drive sales to the AF100. For me at least, I would like to have one of each as quite often I choose my current GH1 over my HMC150 not for any other reason but to be less obtrusive and more stealthy or because I need something small.

And did i hear someone say Uncompressed audio? I wonder if thats what the second SD card is for? Could you even record uncompressed audio in the AVCHD framework?

[timbook2]

I must say : its not pretty....pretty boxy and with the pancake it must look ridicuous...but panny list it under the pro department while GH2 will be consumer 4 sure!
I wonder why they couldnt get the AF100 any smaller.....

[strangways]

aB1UqGmZdcg

What did they shoot that video on? The greenscreen work looks horrible. Due to low colour sampling, all of the edges in his white shirt just look atrocious at 720. It reminds me of the old 4:1:1 days, and if that happens to be 4:2:0... well, that's going to be a deal killer for me.

[g3nov3s3]

Yeah....and what the hell is with those huge bars at the top and bottom?

[Erik Olson]

Yeah, that's a shabby looking key. Certainly doesn't look very AVC-I to me. I don't think you can pull a matte that ugly with an HPX370/300, let alone the VariCam they should have been shooting with.

I guess they're excited about pulling Scopier aspect ratios now that they've put 2.40 guides into the camera?

[Barry_Green]

Question (Sorry if you have covered this). With the size of the sensor in the AF-100 what are the full range of lenses or should I say mount types (PL, Bayonet, etc.) that can be used on it.
Just about anything. PL, Arri Bayonet, Aaton, Nikon, Canon, Leica, Minolta, Pentax K, Pentax Screwmount, Olympus, c-mount... those are just the adapters I can think of offhand. Oh, and B4 ENG lenses too.

But, some of those are going to vignette. Wide-angle c-mount lenses (wider than about 30mm) will vignette, as will B4 lenses.


I've read threads about the using machined Fujion and other really cool fast lenses on the GH1. Will these type of mods prove useful with the AF-100.
Of course. Anything that can be mounted to a GH1, can be mounted on an AF100.

[Barry_Green]

Im also hoping that Panasonic doesn't cripple an upcoming GH2 to drive sales to the AF100.
GH2 has nothing to do with the AF100. They're sold by different companies.


And did i hear someone say Uncompressed audio?
Yes. LPCM uncompressed audio at 48KHz and 16-bit.


Could you even record uncompressed audio in the AVCHD framework?
The potential for uncompressed audio existed, yes, but all prior AVCCAM cameras have used only compressed audio.

[Jay Birch]

Hi Barry... can you give us a rough example of the resolving power... holds up against the EX series?

[Barry_Green]

Hi Barry... can you give us a rough example of the resolving power... holds up against the EX series?
Not tested empirically, but it feels like it's comparable.

[ttxsushi]

Here you go, sushi…

http://www.cameraquest.com/adp_micro_43_fd.htm

Oh yessss!
here we go...

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Yeah, that's a shabby looking key. Certainly doesn't look very AVC-I to me. I don't think you can pull a matte that ugly with an HPX370/300, let alone the VariCam they should have been shooting with. I guess they're excited about pulling Scopier aspect ratios now that they've put 2.40 guides into the camera?

I don't believe we know what camera was used to shoot that video. I doubt they used one of the prototype AF101 cams to shoot it. Why would they use a cam that's less than 70% complete to shoot a marketing piece?

You're certainly entitled to an opinion, but it may be OT to discuss the production values of a marketing video in this thread unless we know a AF101 was used to shoot it. Cheers.

[TimurCivan]

I think i found my next camera. :)

KI pro MINI, Schneider PL's, and im good to go.



I must say : its not pretty....pretty boxy and with the pancake it must look ridicuous...but panny list it under the pro department while GH2 will be consumer 4 sure!
I wonder why they couldnt get the AF100 any smaller.....

because it does more.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Thanks bob, so what about the lenses we can buy?
How can i know the diference between a cinema lenses and a dslr lenses? The 50mm canons for example... how they act on a m4/3 sensor?

The AF100 has a Micro Four Thirds lens mount. There's tons of info about this lens standard available online, including here on DVXuser.
See:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2100480&postcount=112
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2100929&postcount=186
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2100745&postcount=155
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=222826
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=222760&page=3
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=181

[gustavo_viral]

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-25mm-Four-Thirds-Digital/dp/B000P1RBL0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1284232313&sr=1-1

This lens above act like a 50mm just on framing or also on the DOF issue?

[combatentropy]

Just wanted to say, thank you, Barry. Very thorough description of the camera's features.
My kudos to Panasonic as well for such a full-featured design. I think this is as historical as the RED One.

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-25mm-Four-Thirds-Digital/dp/B000P1RBL0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1284232313&sr=1-1

This lens above act like a 50mm just on framing or also on the DOF issue?

Your frequently asked question has been discussed many times. Please refer to the links I provided in the post just above yours. Cheers.

[GRENCH]

Okay everyone. Just to clarify. I have a set of Zeiss ZF lenses. So on the AF-100 my 18mm will become a 36mm, 35mm will become 70mm, my 50mm will become 100mm, and my 85mm will now become 170mm. Is this correct?

So if this is true I would need an extremely wide lens like a 7mm to 8mm to achieve 14 to 16mm? I currently own a 10mm lens but and looking for something wider for use with the AF-100.

Oh yeah, Also can anyone tell me due to the crop factor on the 7D what my Zeiss lenses measures are changed to? Really appreciate it.

[Mirezzi]

I believe the 7D is 1.6x crop factor, so do the math. :)

[combatentropy]

We are about to be overrun by questions about lenses and crop factors. These are important questions, and if you are going to use any camera with interchangeable lenses, you had best understand it all. But it has been asked and answered on this forum and forums across the universe, and it would be best that you just Google it.

The focal length (such as "50mm") is a physical property of the lens itself, not an absolute description of the angle of view. It is a literal distance that light travels from a certain point in the lens to the point where the light is focused. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_length

It may be easier in the short run to think of your favorite focal lengths for the full-frame 35mm format ("28mm is a nice wide", "50mm is normal", "105mm is telephoto", etc.) and apply the applicable "crop factor" to those starting points ("4/3 has a Crop Factor of 2, so I should get a 14, 25, and 52.5mm"). But in the long run, you need to understand that angle of view is measured in degrees (75.4°, 46.8°, 23.3°), and that depth of field is a factor of the focal length (50mm), focal distance (focused on a subject, say, 3 feet away) and F-stop (f/2.8)*, no matter what size sensor you use behind it.

*Actually, since f/stop is a quotient of the focal length and the actual physical size of the iris opening, you could simplify the factors that go into depth of field even more so, and say that it is dependent on focal distance and aperture size. A 50mm lens at f/2 and a 100mm lens at f/4 both have the same depth of field (when focused to the same distance), because they both have an aperture diameter of 25mm.

[gustavo_viral]

Your frequently asked question has been discussed many times. Please refer to the links I provided in the post just above yours. Cheers.

looks im not the only one with those doubts. And i think that my question was relevant and could help others. Thanks.

[Dino]

I think i found my next camera. :)

KI pro MINI, Schneider PL's, and im good to go.

Timur,

Wondering why you prefer the Schneider PL's over the Zeiss CP 1 or 2's? The CP 1's are faster in 50mm and 85mm focal lengths, T1.5 vs.T2.1 for the CP 2's, and faster than the Schneider's, I believe.

Also, if the AF100 only has 8-bit HD SDI output, it won't make full use of the 10-bit ProRes 422 codec. Maybe the nanoFlash is sufficient quality wise and more flexible due to its smaller form factor.

[timbook2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB1UqGmZdcg

[GRENCH]

I believe the 7D is 1.6x crop factor, so do the math. :)

Thanks Mirezzi!

[Ben_B]

For the love of god somebody sneak an SDHC card into the prototype camera on the floor and then get it out of there and lets see the damn footage!!!

[Steve Kahn]

For the love of god somebody sneak an SDHC card into the prototype camera on the floor and then get it out of there and lets see the damn footage!!!
I would like to see charts. That would do it for me. :2vrolijk_08:

[Mirezzi]

Timur,
Also, if the AF100 only has 8-bit HD SDI output, it won't make full use of the 10-bit ProRes 422 codec. Maybe the nanoFlash is sufficient quality wise and more flexible due to its smaller form factor.

While not "full use", it was interesting to hear the comments from colorists, etc. watching the Zacuto shootout discussing how much better work they could do when transcoding the H.264 to ProRes.

I believe that's what they were referring to when they did the test of "pseudo-RAW" footage from the 5D in the final episode of the shootout.

Can anybody verify that?

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

For the love of god somebody sneak an SDHC card into the prototype camera on the floor and then get it out of there and lets see the damn footage!!!

he he he :-)

But As Barry says:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2100476&postcount=111

[GRENCH]

OjhpwWUTCao

Hey Barry,

That thing looks pretty light weight. When your taking off the lens your handling it like it's as light as a feather.

Another bonus I would say :thumbsup:

[Steve Kahn]

Interview with Barry...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhpwWUTCao&feature=player_embedded

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Reaction to Sony's block-of-wood "FilmLike camcorder" offering at IBC by genuine Scotsman Philip Johnston:
http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2010/09/11/1st-day-at-ibc-sony-go-retro/

:-)

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

New to me, the "Ninja" external ProRes recorder, to sell for only 795 Euros from Atomos:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/9/11/enter-the-ninja-recorder.html
http://www.atomos.com/

Add to the growing list (new AJA MINI, nanoFlash) for possible use with the AF100 & other cams.

[danielc]

maybe ya missed the question, no worries. but, barry, or anyone who knows this; will panasonic offer their own adapter for the camera, say f mount. or which brands would one use?

thanks!

dan

[Mirezzi]

Reaction to Sony's block-of-wood "FilmLike camcorder" offering at IBC by genuine Scotsman Philip Johnston:
http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2010/09/11/1st-day-at-ibc-sony-go-retro/

:-)

Yeah, I was astonished (and saddened) to read that the Sony camera is estimated to be ~$20,000.

[miko meloni]

New to me, the "Ninja" external ProRes recorder, to sell for only 795 Euros from Atomos:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/9/11/enter-the-ninja-recorder.html
http://www.atomos.com/

Add to the growing list (new AJA MINI, nanoFlash) for possible use with the AF100 & other cams.

Not only the price,
the choice to use disk drives or ssd instead cards it's the big change..

[Mirezzi]

Other than speculating that the ISO rating of this camera is 400, I haven't really found any discussion of the potential low light performance.

Anyone? Barry?

Won't that remain a major advantage of the DSLRs?

[ATL Media Group]

Other than speculating that the ISO rating of this camera is 400, I haven't really found any discussion of the potential low light performance.

Anyone? Barry?

Won't that remain a major advantage of the DSLRs?

Why? The AF100/101 is basically a DSLR sensor in a video camera body. It should be the same in lowlight performance as the GH1/GH2 (with newer sensor).

[Barry_Green]

Okay everyone. Just to clarify. I have a set of Zeiss ZF lenses. So on the AF-100 my 18mm will become a 36mm, 35mm will become 70mm, my 50mm will become 100mm, and my 85mm will now become 170mm. Is this correct?
No. Your 100mm will be a 100mm. Your 18mm will be an 18mm. But the field of view will not be as wide on a cinema camera as it will be on a full frame camera.


So if this is true I would need an extremely wide lens like a 7mm to 8mm to achieve 14 to 16mm? I currently own a 10mm lens but and looking for something wider for use with the AF-100.
If you want to match the same field of view on the AF100 as you get on a "full frame" camera, then yes, you would need to use a lens with half the focal length. Panasonic makes a 7-14mm zoom, and an 8mm fisheye, and I'm sure there are others out there as well (or will be).


Oh yeah, Also can anyone tell me due to the crop factor on the 7D what my Zeiss lenses measures are changed to? Really appreciate it.
They're not "changed" to anything. They are exactly what they are. But the camera's smaller sensor will see less of the image.

[Barry_Green]

For the love of god somebody sneak an SDHC card into the prototype camera on the floor and then get it out of there and lets see the damn footage!!!
Sure ticket to disappointment. Trade show floor footage has never been worth anything. And trade show floor footage from a 70% prototype -- what's the point? It won't look 1/10th as good as "Dispatch", so as soon as someone does what you ask, we'll have three months of shrieking and complaining.

With that said, I'm sure someone will do it. Counterproductive, but it'll happen.

I asked them to consider releasing the actor/play footage that they shot in Frankfurt, and if they release that, it'll at least be more representative of what you can get from a 70% prototype in more filmic-style conditions.

[Barry_Green]

That thing looks pretty light weight. When your taking off the lens your handling it like it's as light as a feather.
Yeah, it's not heavy. It's not featherweight, but it's not a big hefty hunk of iron either. :)

[Barry_Green]

maybe ya missed the question, no worries. but, barry, or anyone who knows this; will panasonic offer their own adapter for the camera, say f mount. or which brands would one use?

thanks!

dan
Panasonic won't likely be making any adapters themselves, there are already probably a dozen on the market. I've heard the CameraQuest adapters spoken very highly of, and for PL mount the Hot Rod is said to be the best.

But -- just wait. What you will really want is an electronic adapter that translates the camera's 4/3 protocol into the lens's F-mount protocol. And that's coming. Should be on the market before the camera is, so -- revisit the question when it's closer to buying time and see what the options are at that time.

[bwhitz]

Sorry if this has been covered in this thread already, though I don't remember see it anywhere, but is there any word on vari-speed recording? i.e. going from 24fps to 60fps in the same take?

[danielc]

thanks barry! bummer if panasonic doesnt. so to clarify i will be looking for a lumix mount to f mount adapter?

dan

[Barry_Green]

Sorry if this has been covered in this thread already, though I don't remember see it anywhere, but is there any word on vari-speed recording? i.e. going from 24fps to 60fps in the same take?
Not possible. It works the same way as the HVX200, HPX170, HPX370, and HPX500 in that regard. No ramping during a take.

[Barry_Green]

thanks barry! bummer if panasonic doesnt. so to clarify i will be looking for a lumix mount to f mount adapter?
Specifically you want an adapter for Nikon F -> Micro Four Thirds.

[GRENCH]

No. Your 100mm will be a 100mm. Your 18mm will be an 18mm. But the field of view will not be as wide on a cinema camera as it will be on a full frame camera.


If you want to match the same field of view on the AF100 as you get on a "full frame" camera, then yes, you would need to use a lens with half the focal length. Panasonic makes a 7-14mm zoom, and an 8mm fisheye, and I'm sure there are others out there as well (or will be).


They're not "changed" to anything. They are exactly what they are. But the camera's smaller sensor will see less of the image.

Thanks Barry. That was exactly what I needed to hear. :thumbsup:

[Barry_Green]

Do you know any reason for this?
I know about AVCHD standards problems.
This question was in reference to why the 1080/60fps doesn't record at 1080/60fps, but only in slow-mo overcranking...

I asked and was told that this camera is a professional AVCCAM product, and as such, it is going to comply with the AVCCAM and broadcast standards. 1080/60p is not a standardized broadcast format yet. Because it is not standardized, they don't offer a way to record it.

However, I've been thinking about this and -- I mean, technically, it's the same thing -- if you record 1080/30p @ 60fps, and play it back at 200% speed, you'll have 1080/60p recordings played back at 60fps. The "live" 1080/60p look! Hah. :thumbsup:

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Barry, do you know if the 1080p 60p modes will work at all with external recorders like the KiPro Mini? I'm guessing not.

Either way, does anything even come out the HDMI/SDI ports while shooting 60p? If not, how do we monitor it?

[ryan brown]

Sure ticket to disappointment. Trade show floor footage has never been worth anything. And trade show floor footage from a 70% prototype -- what's the point? It won't look 1/10th as good as "Dispatch", so as soon as someone does what you ask, we'll have three months of shrieking and complaining.

With that said, I'm sure someone will do it. Counterproductive, but it'll happen.

I asked them to consider releasing the actor/play footage that they shot in Frankfurt, and if they release that, it'll at least be more representative of what you can get from a 70% prototype in more filmic-style conditions.

Exactly. This thread is already 20 pages in one day. The last thing we need is sub-par footage from a prototype camera to get everyone up in arms. It'd be out of control...

P.S. I love how Barry keeps getting referred to as "DVX user Barry Green" in these articles. I think we need to make him a t-shirt.

[Barry_Green]

If the sensor can't do standard 1080/60p, I'm not sure how it can do 1080/24p @ 60 fps VFR, unless it's some sort of burst mode that it can't keep up for long.

Can we confirm that it isn't just uprezzing the 720p VFR modes for 1080p?
Follow-up on this question -- I asked and have been confirmed that it is NOT doing any sort of up-rez of 720p. The 1080/60p VFR is indeed full-frame-rate, full-resolution video.

The limitation is in recording it, because there is no standardized 1080/60p broadcast recording standard yet. But, as pointed out, you could record 1080/60p and use it as 1080/60p, by recording 1080/30p-at-60fps footage, putting it into a 1080/60p timeline, and playing it back at 200% (frame-for-frame) speed. You'll get the exact same thing, 60 individual frames being imaged, and 60 individaul frames being played back, per second.

[Barry_Green]

Um, I don't know about that. It's "about" 5,000 Euros, but I don't know that the US version will be 5,000 dollars! 5,000 Euros is about 6,000 US dollars (give or take) and they've always said "under $6,000". But I will ask.
Okay, a follow-up on this -- I asked Jan about this, and she confirmed for me that there has been no announcement yet about final US pricing. She said that the official statement is still "under $6,000". She suggested that perhaps the person she spoke to (who reported $5,000) may have misunderstood her, or perhaps she crossed her Euros with her Dollars (i.e., she meant to say 5,000 Euros but instead said 5,000 Dollars).

So - no official announcement about US pricing yet. It will be announced when the camera is launched in the US. Since this is the European launch, that's why European pricing was revealed.

[Luis Caffesse]

It will be announced when the camera is launched in the US.

And when will that be?

[Barry_Green]

Barry, do you know if the 1080p 60p modes will work at all with external recorders like the KiPro Mini? I'm guessing not.

Either way, does anything even come out the HDMI/SDI ports while shooting 60p? If not, how do we monitor it?
Well, see, you've exactly hit the nail on the head. There is no broadcast standard for 1080/60p yet, afaik. This is a broadcast camera. It has to comply to the standard. There isn't one, so it doesn't do it.

So what gets output? Frankly, I don't know -- but I would suspect that it would embed higher-frame-rate progressive footage within a 1080/60i data stream.

As such, I don't think an external recorder would be able to record faster-than-30fps 1080p.

[Barry_Green]

And when will that be?
Soon. Jan would have to say exactly when.

[timbook2]

Panasonic makes a 7-14mm zoom ? I didnt know....just looked its f1:4 :-(

[powervideo]

Hey powervideo,

Is this what your talking about when you speak of strobing? Here is a video I shot directed that ended up giving me a weird strobe effect but I actually liked for this video so I kept it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5mpJ3eonYo

Nice clip. No that almost looks like you had a high shutter on that clip. It's not nearly as noticable with web video. It's on studio CRT's and studio LCDs/plasmas where I notice it. It's just not as smooth as 2/3" camera progressive. Perhaps it is more to do with CCD and global shutters. It's more noticable with slowish pans than rapid camera action. I just work around the issue.

[Stephen Mick]

Panasonic makes a 7-14mm zoom ? I didnt know....just looked its f1:4 :-(

f4

And personally, I don't think it's worth the money. I had it, used it and sold it.

[Barry_Green]

Panasonic makes a 7-14mm zoom ? I didnt know....just looked its f1:4 :-(
http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/panasonic_7-14_4_o20/

[timbook2]

yup saw it :-(

but (at) almost half the price ...will this fit without adapter and full electric contacts?

OLYMPUS OBJEKTIV M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 9 - 18 MM F/4.0-5.6

btw: I love this GH1 compatibility! I spent money on glass and can use it on both.....

[powervideo]

Panasonic won't likely be making any adapters themselves, there are already probably a dozen on the market. I've heard the CameraQuest adapters spoken very highly of, and for PL mount the Hot Rod is said to be the best.

I've got two of the Camerquest M4/3 to C/Y adaptors for my GH1's and they are very solid.

[Barry_Green]

yup saw it :-(

but (at) almost half the price ...will this fit without adapter and full electric contacts?

OLYMPUS OBJEKTIV M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 9 - 18 MM F/4.0-5.6

btw: I love this GH1 compatibility! I spent money on glass and can use it on both.....
Yes that will fit directly. It's less expensive, but it's also much less wide - 9mm vs. 7mm, and I thought your request was for wide, hence the 7-14. Plus the Olympus isn't a constant aperture, it's f/5.6 when zoomed in, vs. the Panasonic's f/4 at wide and tele. I don't know about autofocus on the Olympus, but on the DPReview site they said the autofocus on the 7-14 was pretty much silent, so that sounds promising.

So it's wider and perhaps more video-AF-appropriate, but a lot more expensive than the Olympus.

[Barry_Green]

This looks like a useful chart. Don't know how up to date it is.

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lens_chart.html

[danielc]

thanks for the link barry. they look like great adapters, and what i was worried about was taking it off and on. these can be kept on and look solid(almost like my f mount on my redrock). though i was wondering if my FOV will be altered drastically cause the back of the lens will be so far away from the sensor (the f mount look a good 1/4 inch or more wide).

[Barry_Green]

Here's another chart -- this one is for Four Thirds lenses, not Micro Four Thirds. So you'd need an adapter, but they do make an electronically-controlled adapter, so ... effectively it'll be the same thing.

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/fourthirds/lens_chart.html

On this chart they're showing an Olympus 7-14 with a constant f/4.0 aperture. Don't know anything about it, but you might be interested in checking it out.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Well, see, you've exactly hit the nail on the head. There is no broadcast standard for 1080/60p yet, afaik. This is a broadcast camera. It has to comply to the standard. There isn't one, so it doesn't do it.

So what gets output? Frankly, I don't know -- but I would suspect that it would embed higher-frame-rate progressive footage within a 1080/60i data stream.

As such, I don't think an external recorder would be able to record faster-than-30fps 1080p.

What's stopping them from adding the 28mbs mode from the TM700?

[Barry_Green]

What's stopping them from adding the 28mbs mode from the TM700?
Ain't broadcast. That's a homebrew implementation from the consumer side. (trust me, I asked!) They don't want to put anything on it that isn't broadcast-standard, because this unit is being offered by the broadcast division.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Ain't broadcast. That's a homebrew implementation from the consumer side. (trust me, I asked!) They don't want to put anything on it that isn't broadcast-standard, because this unit is being offered by the broadcast division.

I find it funny that they still call it a "Broadcast Camera" What does that even mean anymore? When I think "Broadcast Camera" I think of ENG. An ENG camera the AF-100 is not. It should not be bound of limited by "Broadcast Camera" standards. I don't see anything wrong with non standard "options."

Let start a "Set the AF-100 Free!" Campaign LOL!:2vrolijk_08:

[Retrospective]

I find it funny that they still call it a "Broadcast Camera" What does that even mean anymore? When I think "Broadcast Camera" I think of ENG. An ENG camera the AF-100 is not. It should not be bound of limited by "Broadcast Camera" standards. I don't see anything wrong with non standard "options."

Let start a "Set the AF-100 Free!" Campaign LOL!:2vrolijk_08:
I do agree with you there, they should accommodate the broadcast standards but also the filmmaking industry.

[NPrincen]

This looks like a useful chart. Don't know how up to date it is.

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lens_chart.html


Yes, this chart is up to date at the current time for the Olympus and Panasonic micro 4/3 lenses. Two new Olympus lenses have just been announced:

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1522
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1523


Other lenses with manual focus and aperture in micro 4/3 mount are:

http://noktor.com/products.php
http://www.cameraquest.com/voigt_m43.htm

But, later this month at Photokina, both Olympus and Panasonic are going to announce new lenses. I am personally waiting for the 100-300 Panasonic zoom for wildlife video.

Thanks, Barry, for the GREAT coverage today!!! You deserve a great time in Amsterdam!

[timbook2]

a propos broadcast: the shoulder cams are broadcast, ok.....if the bottom plates of these small ones would incorporate a slide out plate so one could rest it on the shoulder you can get that "broadcast" look/perspective with AF100 HVX DVX :-))) I hate these rigs they sell....to me the size and form factor of the JVC models is closest to "small and shoulder". And I do need the shoulder A LOT! the backpain from holding the HVX as if it was a shoulder cam............

[timbook2]

NEW Voigtlander M43 25/.95 Im drooling here :-))) thanks for the links Nprincen.
If I have to shoot with ISO 1600 with my pancake 20/2 how much ISO will I gain with .95?
I shoot a lot at night ...

[NPrincen]

Two f-stops from f2 to f.95. So, shooting ISO 400 at f.95 is the same as shooting ISO 1600 at f2. Of course the depth of field is much less at f.95 ;) This lens won't be cheap though.

[john deaver]

Im really hoping to see usable video at 3200 or gasp 6400

Suddenly my GH1 kit lens becomes fast enough for almost anything. And my 20mm f/1.7 and Minolta 50 f/1.4 are like night vision.

[powervideo]

Barry, there's a different kind of strobing that is inherent to all the DLSR's I've shot with. It's not the strobing that I see with standard 25P shooting on my Varicam or SDX900. It's a weird "intraframe" strobe or stutter that happens when you pan the DSLR camera. I've seen it evident from the Canon 7D to the GH1. I suspect it is a CMOS or processing issue where there is just not enough DSP power to process the real time video; or it may just be a scanning speed issue with the CMOS itself.

Because of this, I like to keep the subject pretty static in the frame and avoid too much tilt/panning. Have you noticed the difference between these DSLR's and your HPX500 or HVX200? To me it's like night and day. It's not a deal breaker and I will be first in line for an AF100 regardless, but I hope the "intraframe" strobing effect of the GH1 is not duplicated here in the AF100.

Several of my DOP colleagues agree it is different from the strobing you see in broadcast 2/3" progressive scan cameras, but it is definitely there.

Barry or anyone seeing this effect on DSLR's?

[noirist]

f4

And personally, I don't think it's worth the money. I had it, used it and sold it.
The panasonic 7-14mm is my favorite m4/3rds lens. It's magical.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4115/4944675968_170d252caa_z.jpg



http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4944676114_78e82a92a8_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4944092189_85796cdc1e_z.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noirist/4944675968/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/noirist/4944675968/)

[Stephen Mick]

The panasonic 7-14mm is my favorite m4/3rds lens. It's magical.



http://www.nndb.com/people/715/000024643/doug-henning.jpg

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

More observations from UrbanFox:
http://urbanfoxtv.blogspot.com/2010/09/ibc-update-cameras-and-recorders.html

[Justyn]

Barry... Thanks so much for the info. I'm not thinking of selling my HMC150 in October and picking up two of these bad boys. I'm also excited about the option of renting lenses that I can't afford and having the flexibility to pick and choose what I'd want to buy...

I feel this will be as anxious a December as the HVX200 was way back. That was an awesome time and glad to be a part of this... I believe until the other cameras become available then this is the one taking everyone else's lunch...

[TimurCivan]

Timur,

Wondering why you prefer the Schneider PL's over the Zeiss CP 1 or 2's? The CP 1's are faster in 50mm and 85mm focal lengths, T1.5 vs.T2.1 for the CP 2's, and faster than the Schneider's, I believe.

Also, if the AF100 only has 8-bit HD SDI output, it won't make full use of the 10-bit ProRes 422 codec. Maybe the nanoFlash is sufficient quality wise and more flexible due to its smaller form factor.


The schneiders are matched better, interms of speed, front diameter and i t seems to me that the schneiders are built for cinema as opposed to still photography/motion.

I have not actually touched either set of lenses, so I'm still deciding on wich set I want. Its important that lenses match each other, not only optically, but mechanically and from a convenience standpoint when actually using them.

8bit -> proress 10bit422 is better than, avc hd. Period.

[Ben_B]

Sure ticket to disappointment. Trade show floor footage has never been worth anything. And trade show floor footage from a 70% prototype -- what's the point? It won't look 1/10th as good as "Dispatch", so as soon as someone does what you ask, we'll have three months of shrieking and complaining.

With that said, I'm sure someone will do it. Counterproductive, but it'll happen.

I asked them to consider releasing the actor/play footage that they shot in Frankfurt, and if they release that, it'll at least be more representative of what you can get from a 70% prototype in more filmic-style conditions.

Oh tradeshow footage is lousy, and obviously footage from a prototype isn't totally definitive. Buuuuut I still want to see it just to play around with it on a technical level. Would be nice to see some of the 1080/60p if that's enabled as well.

[plasmasmp]

I think I still have tradeshow dvx100 footage on one of my old harddrives. Yep, from before it launched. lol

[SPZ]

Barry, any chance they give us a 4:2:2 codec on the unfinished 30%? Pass this message to Jan and the Panasonic officials. After Canon-s new line of videocams, seems like a 4:2:0 codec in the price range should be a thing from the past... Even if the price went up from 6000 to 6500, I would pay for it!

[Ben_B]

Barry, any chance they give us a 4:2:2 codec on the unfinished 30%? Pass this message to Jan and the Panasonic officials. After Canon-s new line of videocams, seems like a 4:2:0 codec in the price range should be a thing from the past... Even if the price went up from 6000 to 6500, I would pay for it!

You could just record using the HDMI or SDI out?

[GRENCH]

NanoFlash, Ninja or the AJA Ki Pro MINI

So which would be your choice to go with the AF-100? They all seem to do pretty much the same thing.

I like the Ki Pro MINI myself. But the price of the ninja is pretty tempting. I just don't like the idea of a hard drive.

[danielc]

sorry to jump off topic here but maybe some can help clarify for me. with the hdsdi out recorders, do they have to support the resolution/framerate from the signal or just record whatever is there? for example the lower framerates for fast motion stuff would be recordable or not? also, does anyone know what the mbps would be to the prores formats and if that is a option to push it or lower it? thanks!

[Mikungfu]

Oooofff... Jesus! I finally managed to reach the end of this thread! Lol... But it's only reasonable all this enthusiasm.

Like many others did here before, I have to express my grattitude for the untiring dedication that Barry displays for the tasks of sharing information and answering questions!..
I was eager either to find an answer to my doubts or to ask them myself... so, I finally read all replies and couldn't find my answer. I'm sorry if I missed it but, I really tried hard to find them.

A) This camera is expected to be launched to the market in December. But does this mean we may get a fair chance of getting our hands on it by december?... Or will the first cameras be pre-destined to specific customers, leaving the general public to wait for February or MArch untill they get a chance to buy one?

B) I have more or less understood the incredible potential this camera will have for providing a typical DSLR DOF in a Video Camcorder form factor and functionalities. However, is there a way for this camera to behave as a typical all purpose/deeper DOF camera? I mean, are there any specific lenses that will allow this camera to have a deeper DOF like in a EX-1 or a Canon XF305, for a less cinematic use? Or is it recommended not to rely on this camera for that line of applications?
I intend to buy 2 of these as soon as possible for a multi(bi)cam style of work... Will I need yet a XF305 for the shoot and run deeper DOF style of shooting (weddings, sports...), or will I be able to do that with this camera, at least with some specific lens(es)??...

C) Actually, this is the gear I was thinking in buyin before the end of the year:

* 2x AG-AF101 (living in Europe) + 2x NanoFlash
* 2x LUMIX G VARIO HD 14-140mm - All purpose/Standard Zoom: 700€ (1400€)
* 1x LUMIX G VARIO 7-14mm - Wide Angle Zoom: 850€ (Japan)
* 1x LUMIX G VARIO 45-200mm - Zoom Telephoto: 400€
* 1x LEICA DG MACRO-ELMARIT 45mm - Macro: 700€

* 1x Canon XF305
* SGBlade 35mm Adaptor
* 1x Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 ZF
* 1x Zeiss Distagon T* 2.8/21 f2.8 ZF
* 1x Zeiss Nikon Mount 1:2/100 ZF (Macro)

Any advice on this gear? Anything missing, anything overkill? I'm having the Lumix lenses for autofocus and the Zeiss both for quality and to be used both in the AF-101 and the XF305.

But... Will really the XF305 be needed? Or is the Panny able to replace it in the multipurpose/event line of work?

Thanks a million!

Miguel

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Barry, any chance they give us a 4:2:2 codec on the unfinished 30%? Pass this message to Jan and the Panasonic officials. After Canon-s new line of videocams, seems like a 4:2:0 codec in the price range should be a thing from the past... Even if the price went up from 6000 to 6500, I would pay for it!

Pretty much the AVC-Intra/P2 argument. Yeah...I'll take 2!

[bluesgeek]

B) I have more or less understood the incredible potential this camera will have for providing a typical DSLR DOF in a Video Camcorder form factor and functionalities. However, is there a way for this camera to behave as a typical all purpose/deeper DOF camera? I mean, are there any specific lenses that will allow this camera to have a deeper DOF like in a EX-1 or a Canon XF305, for a less cinematic use? Or is it recommended not to rely on this camera for that line of applications?


I think this is a good question. What's the trade-off in low-light performance when stopped way down when compared with a smaller sensor cam like the EX-1 wide open in the same light?

[Steve Kahn]

use wide angle lenses for deeper DOF and/or position the subject further away from the camera.

Stopping down a lens to say f22 means loosing up to 10 stops of light. You do the math.

[bill totolo]

Yes.

I can't say what I was told, but I was told that it's better than the HPX370's. Well, let me hedge that -- I was told that either the LCD or the EVF was going to be better, but I don't remember which one. Either way, it should be pretty excellent. The days of the HVX200's LCD panel are finally completely behind us!

Now if they could stick that on the 2700 I'd be a happy man.

[Noel Evans]

Also, if the AF100 only has 8-bit HD SDI output, it won't make full use of the 10-bit ProRes 422 codec. Maybe the nanoFlash is sufficient quality wise and more flexible due to its smaller form factor.

Dino, heres my very unscientific reason why I'd go that way. In shooting a lot of broll with the 5D, I have found that converting to 4444, which is rediculous overkill, that indeed I find it easier to push parts of it around in color, also even when my CC isnt that heavy, I find the end result doesnt introduce more rubbish to the moire and aliasing: Plus I have the machine speed and drive space that the whole thing isnt cumbersome, so why not? Therefor the higher the better for me. 10bit 4:2:2 as a start point is about where Id like to be in aquisition.

Also the the ki pro mini will also add two audio channels - add that to the AF100 and you have four total.

Im not sure why I dont find the AF100 ugly as many others have, but I dont. As long as it doesnt look like a dslr and balances pretty well Im happy.

[10s]

The camera will be very impressive and functional dressed in rails, mattebox and ff. This boxy design is what we need for serious work.

[Dino]

Now if they could stick that on the 2700 I'd be a happy man.

+1

That color viewfinder option for the 2700/3700 is pretty cool--for a mere $8K!

[Barry_Green]

Barry or anyone seeing this effect on DSLR's?
I don't know what you're referring to, and can't really research it over here. We shot some films on a GH1 and I've shot several filmic sequences on the 7D and haven't run across any problems in motion rendition.

[Barry_Green]

I think I still have tradeshow dvx100 footage on one of my old harddrives. Yep, from before it launched. lol
The stuff with the train set? I shot that. I think that was the first DVX footage anybody shot, posted to the world... so, yeah, I'm familiar with the need and desire of tradeshow floor footage, but it's also kind of pointless. :)

[Barry_Green]

Barry, any chance they give us a 4:2:2 codec on the unfinished 30%?
Not a chance. Not on this camera. Maybe on a later model, but not this one.


After Canon-s new line of videocams, seems like a 4:2:0 codec in the price range should be a thing from the past...
Yeah, tell that to Sony, who's putting a 4:2:0 codec on their $20,000 PMW-350.

I agree, we should be having 4:2:2 intraframe everywhere, which is why I've been whining for a P2 version. And it may happen. But not on the AF100. Maybe an AF200 or something in the future.

[Ben_B]

NanoFlash, Ninja or the AJA Ki Pro MINI

So which would be your choice to go with the AF-100? They all seem to do pretty much the same thing.

I like the Ki Pro MINI myself. But the price of the ninja is pretty tempting. I just don't like the idea of a hard drive.

"The Ninja uses ordinary, low cost 2.5 Notebook HDD or SSD hard drives. These are housed securely inside the Atomos Master Caddy, which locks inside the Ninja. The drives are hot swappable, which means inserting new drives on the fly is a snap."

Just throw a solid state drive in there!

[TimurCivan]

The camera will be very impressive and functional dressed in rails, mattebox and ff. This boxy design is what we need for serious work.

The most exciting part is that it has so many 1/4" threaded ports. think of how convenient working with the camera will be....

after this HDSLR era, id sell my grandma for the convenince factor back while working. im tired of wrestling with the camera.

[Barry_Green]

Like many others did here before, I have to express my grattitude for the untiring dedication that Barry displays for the tasks of sharing information and answering questions!..
To everyone who has expressed gratitude -- thank you very much! It is much appreciated!


A) This camera is expected to be launched to the market in December. But does this mean we may get a fair chance of getting our hands on it by december?... Or will the first cameras be pre-destined to specific customers, leaving the general public to wait for February or MArch untill they get a chance to buy one?
The HVX200 launch was crazy -- it was launched and delivered in December, but there were so many backorders that most folks who didn't pre-order, didn't get theirs until April. It was about June before there was widespread stock and someone could actually walk into a store and buy one.

Will it be the same way this time? No way to tell. They obviously are aware of the level of demand, but if you need one soon, you'd be wise to get an order in to your dealer as early as possible. If you don't need it right away, it'll probably be a couple months at least before they're widespread and easily available.


B) I have more or less understood the incredible potential this camera will have for providing a typical DSLR DOF in a Video Camcorder form factor and functionalities. However, is there a way for this camera to behave as a typical all purpose/deeper DOF camera?
Well, the more you stop down the iris, the deeper the DOF becomes, so there's always that...

I mean, are there any specific lenses that will allow this camera to have a deeper DOF like in a EX-1 or a Canon XF305, for a less cinematic use?
No. Well, yes, in that a wide-angle lens gives deeper DOF, but if you want telephoto capability and deep DOF, it's going to always be shallower than a 1/3" or 1/2" camera.



But... Will really the XF305 be needed? Or is the Panny able to replace it in the multipurpose/event line of work?
The biggest advantage something like an XF305 will have, for event work, is a long telephoto zoom range with a smooth servo zoom. If you need to do a slow crawling zoom in, that'll be possible on the XF305, and not so much on an AF100. If you need deep DOF for run 'n' gun, that'll be easily attainable on the XF305, not so much on the AF100. In bright daylight you can get all the DOF you'll likely ever need from an AF100, if you stop down to f/16 or so... but shooting long telephoto shots with an AF100 will always involve shallower DOF than it will on a 1/3" or 1/2" camcorder.

[Barry_Green]

I think this is a good question. What's the trade-off in low-light performance when stopped way down when compared with a smaller sensor cam like the EX-1 wide open in the same light?
Well, obviously the tradeoff is that how are you going to stop down the AF100? You'll need lots of light. If you're comparing ISO to ISO, the AF100 is probably going to be noticeably cleaner than the EX-1. But if you want to stop down the AF100 in order to match the DOF of the EX1, then you'll need to raise the ISO on the AF100 to afford the deeper f-stop. And in that case, for deep-focus applications, I bet that will neutralize the noise advantage the AF100 would otherwise enjoy.

[Barry_Green]

Like many others did here before, I have to express my grattitude for the untiring dedication that Barry displays for the tasks of sharing information and answering questions!..
To everyone who has expressed gratitude -- thank you very much! It is much appreciated!


A) This camera is expected to be launched to the market in December. But does this mean we may get a fair chance of getting our hands on it by december?... Or will the first cameras be pre-destined to specific customers, leaving the general public to wait for February or MArch untill they get a chance to buy one?
The HVX200 launch was crazy -- it was launched and delivered in December, but there were so many backorders that most folks who didn't pre-order, didn't get theirs until April. It was about June before there was widespread stock and someone could actually walk into a store and buy one.

Will it be the same way this time? No way to tell. They obviously are aware of the level of demand, but if you need one soon, you'd be wise to get an order in to your dealer as early as possible. If you don't need it right away, it'll probably be a couple months at least before they're widespread and easily available.


B) I have more or less understood the incredible potential this camera will have for providing a typical DSLR DOF in a Video Camcorder form factor and functionalities. However, is there a way for this camera to behave as a typical all purpose/deeper DOF camera?
Well, the more you stop down the iris, the deeper the DOF becomes, so there's always that...

I mean, are there any specific lenses that will allow this camera to have a deeper DOF like in a EX-1 or a Canon XF305, for a less cinematic use?
No. Well, yes, in that a wide-angle lens gives deeper DOF, but if you want telephoto capability and deep DOF, it's going to always be shallower than a 1/3" or 1/2" camera.



But... Will really the XF305 be needed? Or is the Panny able to replace it in the multipurpose/event line of work?
The biggest advantage something like an XF305 will have, for event work, is a long telephoto zoom range with a smooth servo zoom. If you need to do a slow crawling zoom in, that'll be possible on the XF305, and not so much on an AF100. If you need deep DOF for run 'n' gun, that'll be easily attainable on the XF305, not so much on the AF100. In bright daylight you can get all the DOF you'll likely ever need from an AF100, if you stop down to f/16 or so... but shooting long telephoto shots with an AF100 will always involve shallower DOF than it will on a 1/3" or 1/2" camcorder.

[Barry_Green]

The most exciting part is that it has so many 1/4" threaded ports. think of how convenient working with the camera will be....
There's also at least one, if not two, 3/8" sockets too. I can't see the bottom of the cameras right now, they're fixed to plates, but I believe that on the bottom it has both 1/4-20 and 3/8" sockets.


after this HDSLR era, id sell my grandma for the convenince factor back while working. im tired of wrestling with the camera.
Welcome to my world, my friend. :thumbsup: