Shooting Blanks!

[Smithhouse]

Looking at order some blank firing guns for a feature to be shot next month... Does all blank firing guns have the muzzle flash coming out the top? If so, would you just remove the to flash in post and add a flash on the barrel to make it look more real?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Trey

[taubkin]

In Brazil, blank gns are real guns with blanks, and to be operated require a professional, licensed gunman, here they're always policemen too. Make sure you play according to the local law on this.

[Neil Rowe]

imho -youd be better off just using airsoft guns, or other replica weapons, and getting rid of the red tip, and adding any sound or muzzle flashes wanted in post. alot safer ,and easier to work with. no worries or hassle to make shooting alot quicker. they are also alot cheaper in general, and can be purchased with blowback actions, and other working mechanisms.

[BLUESPIDER]

These were fired from real guns using blanks. Some guns can be very loud ( just like the real thing) and can be dangerous. You need permits if you plan on using guns in a public area.


http://img13.exs.cx/img13/432/HG14-GUNS.jpg

[AndyJ]

Depending what country you're in, depends on what type of blank fire guns you can purchase. In the US, you can pick up ones that DO fire with the muzzle flash, in other places (like here in the UK), you can't buy those types.

What you can/can't buy replica gun-wise in the UK is getting increasingly restrictive for filmmakers... and all the while gun crime is rising faster than anywhere in Europe! (sorry for being political!) ;)

[Brandt_Wilson]

So far as I can tell, based on ATF and customs regs, only the plugged barrel type guns are legal to purchase or import. If you happen to bue the guns online from overseas vendors, and these guns have not been approved prior to purchase, they're likely to be confiscated in customs if the packages are inspected.

Another option is a device called Model Gun. Look up blank guns on Ebay and check out the machineguns. They fire a screw-together dummy cartridge that takes one or two paper caps similar to what you fed through your Lone Ranger capgun when you were a kid.

You might look at http://www.modelguns.co.uk/index.htm to see a sample of what's available and what test footage looks like.

Airsoft will give more model options. There are also plugins for After Effects that will simulate a muzzle flash from the side. If you're adept at 3D, you might create a simulation for the flash and ejecting shells and tie it into your scene. Taping your talent against a chroma screen may help isolate a holdout matte if you need to have the gun move in front of and behind the talent.

Also look at AlamDV. There have been a lot of people using it for muzzle flashes and ejected shells. Some samples are better than others.

[Shaw]

Those model gun weapons are freakin awesome! Screw post flashes!

[Slimothy]

This is something that always bugs me too. I always see cheesy ass muzzle flashes/cartridges and it totally takes me out of the moment.

[Brandt_Wilson]

Some observations and suggestions:

The quality of the effect, if done in post, is entirely up to the skill and patience of the artist. Also, a live flash on the set may not be as accurate as you think

Looking at the live shots above from Hollander's Curse, I see blanks, not live rounds, because there is no resistence in the flash. It's dramatic, and with good sound, it gets the blood pumping. But it still isn't right. As a bullet leaves the barrel, there is no lateral resistence to the flame that trails it, but there is resistence directly behind the bullet, so the flash mushrooms out, instead of pushing straight out.

Also, most modern ammunition, especially for military weapons, is designed for minimal flash. The presence of much of any flash in itself says "special effect". Next time you go to a firing range, notice what you see when the gun goes off. Typically, it's a non-descript flash. Sometimes you'll see a flame, such as when you shoot a magnum load, but typically, it's just a pop. You might also notice that the area around you is somewhat illuminated, especially by the magnum loads. Sounds like a couple flash strobes- one in the barrel and one aimed into the scene- and a killer sound mix would go a long way.

Also, most brass travels so fast that all you get is a blur. Either dark or shiny brass, but it is a blur. I think the shells in AlamDV are pretty crisp. You really could fire the strobes and show brass on the ground in an insert shot of the shooter's movement over the ground.

Just my 2c.

[MohdRidhwan]

What does blank means? is the bullet just pop or its like a real gun that you can die if be shot.

[AndyJ]

I think if you shot a blank in someone's face at point-blank range it would probably kill them. So be careful!!! ;)

[kai]

Just ask Brandon Lee how dangerous they are...

[Curtis_Rhoads]

Most guns that are sold as Blank Firing have the barrel plugged, and must have an orange tip to be in compliance with United States Federal law. They are also made so that they cannot be altered to fire live ammo. These are usually used for plays, and sporting events (starter guns).

In Hollywood, they take real live firing guns, and place blank rounds in them. These guns will fire the paper/wax wad that holds the gunpowder in the shell. These guns also must be handled by a licensed Arms Marshall.

Blank Firing/Stage guns do not require you to be licensed in order to have/handle them. Of course, each part of the USA is different, and local laws may require you to make some kind of signed statement as to their use before you can buy them.

FYI, Brandon Lee was killed when the lead bullet of a live round got stuck in the barrel of a gun, which was then loaded with blanks for the next shot. Gun went off, and wax and lead were shot into Lee. Jon-Erik Hexum of the TV show COVER UP was killed when he placed a .44 prop gun to his head and pulled the trigger while joking around. The wadding from the blank shattered his skull, he died about 6 hours later from the wound.

This is why there's some groups in Hollywood trying to get the industry to use these new Blank Firing or Non-Firing replica guns in movies.

[MohdRidhwan]

Damn...they should make something just 'Puff' .no bullets will come out.

[BLUESPIDER]

Damn...they should make something just 'Puff' .no bullets will come out.

Yeah its called computer generated.

[MohdRidhwan]

I should buy a BB gun,then just put the sound effects. ;)

[AndyJ]

...Or paint a water pistol black! ;)

[dakotapod]

Unless you need an EC of the gun you could get away with a rubber prop or even a water pistol painted up to look real.

Adding the muzzle flash is easy to do in post and you can get some decent looking ones here for free. 8)

http://www.detonationfilms.com

[BLUESPIDER]

I should buy a BB gun,then just put the sound effects.

kid, you'll shoot your eye out.

[MohdRidhwan]

kid, you'll shoot your eye out.

Its not my eye who will be blind ;D

[AndyJ]

Interesting point, MohdRidhwan...

If you have to do a scene where the actor gets shot, just do it at the very end and use a real gun - that way, it will look very very real, and you won't have to pay them at the end.

(Just talk to Bluespider about 'disposal' first....) ;)

[MohdRidhwan]

slap some ketchup then. ;D

[AndyJ]

I have no idea what that meant, but I'm smiling none the less! ;)

[MohdRidhwan]

If you have to do a scene where the actor gets shot, just do it at the very end and use a real gun - that way, it will look very very real, and you won't have to pay them at the end.

(Just talk to Bluespider about 'disposal' first....) ;)

I have no idea what does it means.

[AndyJ]

Sorry, my sarcasm clearly doesn't travel well... or at least, maybe not to Malaysia! (Sorry, that flag IS Malasian isn't it?) *;)

[MohdRidhwan]

Yes it is...Im better writing English than writing Malay though.

[AndyJ]

;D

[Slimothy]

Just use real guns with real bullets. Comes with the best sound/visual realness and cuts out the fake blood bullshit. Just hire shitty actors. Tim.

[AndyJ]

My thoughts exactly (see above!) ;)

[seantree]

Are the airsoft guns easily modified to rid them of the orange tip? I was thinking of buying a few of them but don't want to have to frame shots to hide the bright orange tips. I have no probs with using CG for muzzleflashes. Thanks!

[Shaw]

yes they are easy to modify though the ease depends on the gun and the size/shape of the orange part.

[Brandt_Wilson]

Seantree,

On most airsoft guns with the orange tip, it's either the flash hider, such as on an M16, or the tip of the barrel on a handgun that is painted orange. The handgun barrel can be removed and painted, and the flash hider can be repainted (they're removable) or it can be replaced by a stock black flash hider.

The effect can be posted...Delerium by digieffects has a muzzle flash plugin. It is only viewable from the side.
http://www.digieffects.com/screenshots.shtml?PROD=3&JPG=20

Though I've not tried it personally, I've heard that you can use a simple particle system that will take a flame material, animate the partical behavior over time, and pretty do whatever you want. Sounds easier than it is, but you can create a 3D rotatable effect.

You might also create a true 3D object of the flash, use an animated displacement map to create the varying flame effect, and animate the luminosity and transparency.

[seantree]

Brandt, I was just browsing the particles that ship with Combustion 3 and there are muzzle flashes from all angles included so I'm gonna take a stab at using them. Thanks for the tip on the airsoft guns. I was actually lookig into Desert Eagles for my project :)

[Curtis_Rhoads]

Note, that if you paint over the orange tip of an air soft gun, the gun basically becomes illegal in the United States. The orange tip is there to let law officials know that it's not a live gun that you're carrying around. You can get in trouble for it.

Now that I've mentioned that, I haven't had any problems with my altered guns. Of course, I do let the City and Police Department know at least 1 week ahead of time, what's going on, where I'll be shooting, and that airsoft guns are being used. I feel that it helps to cut down on the Police showing up to a scene where several people are carrying guns around and pointing them at each other. ;D Doesn't mean that I haven't had the Police show up, but we've been able to just show them the airsoft guns, and they tell us to be more careful and leave.

So, if you do go ahead and alter your airsoft guns to look more real, just be careful and aware that there might be consequences down the road. Also keep in mind that your local Police have to report the incident to the ATF who, from what I've been told, investigate the matter themselves.

And that ends my FYI for the day! Merry Christmas Everyone!!

[AndyJ]

Isn't that strange - in the UK (where real guns are illegal) we don't have to have an orange tip on our airsoft guns; they come without it... ::)

[Brandt_Wilson]

One additional point on the legality of the orange tip in the US...if you are a bona fide production company, there are ways to protect yourself and still have the black tip. I believe you can go to www.mfiap.com and review the laws regarding production use of the guns.

What Curtis says is absolutely correct...notify your local law enforcement and neighbors that they are not real guns. I used to know a guy at the local ATF office and let him know, as well, in case the local police called him. He logged it and said no big deal. This was also 6 months after the terrorist attacks in NY, so nerves were still pretty raw in those offices.

[Smithhouse]

Keep law guys in the loop and they can be very helpful... I got to shot a sequence for my feature in a crime lab and the deputy chiefs office of a police station in Sac. because I was constantly touching basis with them about my project.

[Eon42]

Hey guys. I beleive Canada has something called "The firearms Act" or something like that. It states that "blank firing" or "replica" guns cannot be sold or purchased in Canada. If it was sold and purchased before 1998 it's ok to own. It seems the only things I could purchase here in Canada are air rifles from sports marts and "electric replica M-16s and MP5s" from Belgium. (Assuming this is a good Ebayer and the gun doesn't get confiscated at the Canadian border. Any suggestions for a Canadian guy like me? lol.

[filmmaker58]

If you can get airsoft guns, just use those and add muzzle flashes in post. A lot of pro's are going that route also. The church scene in "Once Upon A Time In Mexico" was all rubber guns.

[djgvinny]

use this link http://www.stage-props-blank-guns.com/stage_movie_props/catalog/MODERN-BLANK-GUNS-p-1-c-166.html
take the shooting indoor and " voila" ,dont be a pussy its only a fine if you get caught

[ericyoung]

Go for airsoft.

It's been said before, but blank firing guns need an armourer to oversee their use, like real guns, as they are potentially lethal if used inappropriately, not safety checked before use, or used without proper training.