Panasonic AF100 HD-SDI?

[Kindredmachine]

We're looking into new cams and the announced AF100 really caught my eye. A 4/3" CMOS sensor seems like it could be pure liquid sweetness, but I noticed that it's an AVCHD cam. Last I heard AVCHD uses Mpeg4 (h.264) at 24mb/s? Wouldn;t this create an overcompressed image that would look terrible? Allof our projects are for Bluray release and I would think the difference between mpeg4 compression (even a good one) and mpeg2 is night and day?

I did notice however, that it has HD-SDI output. From someone with more experience with SDI, do you suppose this means we could record full 4:2:2 color Mpeg-2 50mb/100m/s onto an external source, say onto a Nanoflash? I've never used SDI so I'm not sure if that would be a universal options for all cams that carrie this or if still have to "wait and see" when we get closer to release?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/731509-REG/Panasonic_AG_AF100_AG_AF100_Micro_4_3_Professional .html#features

[Barry_Green]

But I noticed that it's a AVCHD cam... say wha? Isn't that like buying a Ferrari and swapping out the engine for a 4 cilinder? Last I heard AVCHD uses Mpeg4 at like 24mb/s? BLAH, whats the point?
What's the problem? It's a codec that performs better than that offered by a major competitor on a $20,000 2/3" camcorder, so ... hey, it isn't perfect, but it certainly isn't bad.


I did notice however, that it has HD-SDI output. From someone with more experience with SDI, do you suppose this means we could record a full 100mbs image (before it's compresses to a terrible 24mb/s image) onto an external source, say onto a Nanoflash?
Well, if you want to compress it to a "terrible" 24mb/s image, you'd have to record onto the NanoFlash in HDV mode. :D

The onboard AVCHD recording will BEAT THE LIVING HELL out of HDV, and I think you're really selling it short. It's really surprisingly good, considering the bitrate. It's better than 35mb/s MPEG-2, and probably about equivalent to 45mb/s MPEG-2.

But -- regardless -- if you want to use the Nano, of course you can. It'll output a full HD uncompressed signal, which you can record on the Nanoflash at 280mbps Intraframe, if that's what you want. No problem.


However, you won't be recording a 10-bit image, because the Nano only records 8-bit.

I've never used SDI so I'm not sure if that would be a universal options for all cams that carrie this or if still have to "wait and see" when we get closer to release?
Nothing to wait and see about -- SDI is a standardized output, so yes it'll work.

I'm strongly considering a Nano as well, to pair with it. I think AVCHD is a fine codec, but the notion of 280mbps intraframe is really appealing.

[Kindredmachine]

AVCHD uses a h.264 codec which is I'm pretty sure is Mpeg4 right? If Mpeg-4 compression at 24MB/S can really create the quality, grain and color in this cam of 45mb/s MPEG-2 then that would be fantastic but honestly I have a hard time believing it. But thank you very much for the information regarding the Nanoflash. If we can indeed use the SDI output to bypass the Mpeg-4 24mb/s compression and capture a true 4:2:2 Mpeg-2 50mb/100mb/s then this camera could potentially blow away anything else on the market for under $10k.

[Kindredmachine]

Or maybe my perception of 24mb/s compression is skewed. My expereince has been with the HDV format.

[arniepix]

AVCHD uses a h.264 codec which is I'm pretty sure is Mpeg4 right?

AVC, aka h.264 is, indeed, a flavor of MPEG 4. There are many flavors of MPEG4. BTW, Blu-Ray can also be encoded with h.264.

At the same bit rate, video that has a lot of motion or texture that's encoded with h.264 can look much better than it can with MPEG 2.

[arniepix]

However, you won't be recording a 10-bit image, because the Nano only records 8-bit.

Nothing to wait and see about -- SDI is a standardized output, so yes it'll work.

I'm strongly considering a Nano as well, to pair with it. I think AVCHD is a fine codec, but the notion of 280mbps intraframe is really appealing.

Personally, I'd look at a Ki Pro from AJA or a Cinedeck. The Ki Pro costs a little more and is bigger, but it offers full 10 bit recording to Apple's Pro Res codec. The Cinedeck is quite a bit more, but it can record in 10 bit or 12 bit to Cineform's codec.

[Kindredmachine]

Thanks for the info... Since we're going from SD productions into HD productions this year, my perception of h.264 is changing. I just assumed we would use Mpeg-2 compression for our upcoming Bluray projects but now I don;t think that'll be the case. It seems most studios are now using the AVC (h.264). I feel like I'm behind the times. The last 3 years has moved fast.

[mcgeedigital]

Let's hope it is 10bit.

[Barry_Green]

Or maybe my perception of 24mb/s compression is skewed. My expereince has been with the HDV format.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but HDV is MPEG-2, not MPEG-4. Think about it this way: Sony themselves say that if you want to get equivalent picture quality to 25mb/sec HDV, you could do it with 9 megabits of h.264. Nine. 21mb/sec of properly-implemented h.264 is vastly superior to HDV.

[Barry_Green]

I just assumed we would use Mpeg-2 compression for our upcoming Bluray projects but now I don;t think that'll be the case. It seems most studios are now using the AVC (h.264). I feel like I'm behind the times. The last 3 years has moved fast.
Yes indeed, I think you'll want to reconsider that notion. While Blu-Ray does support both MPEG-2 and h.264, h.264 is just a vastly superior codec. The often-quoted comparison is that h.264 delivers equivalent quality to MPEG-2 at less than half the bitrate, or, put another way, h.264 is two to two and a half times more efficient. Which is why I said AVCHD should be easily a match for 45 megabits/sec of MPEG-2.

[Kindredmachine]

Yep, you're right. I've been reading up on h.264 and that seem to be the way to go, especially at higher bitrates. But I'm still teetering betwween an EX1R wit Nanoflash to get the 100mb/s bitrate with 4:2:2 color VS the upcoming AF100. I read that the AF100 even with a nanoflash will still push out 4:2:0 color. What do you guys think? Would you prefer the 4/3" chips even at 4:2:0 color over the EX1R with 1/2" chips and 4:2:2 color... both using nanos of course capturing at 100Mb/s. It's a tough call for me since both rigs will sitting at around $10k.

[Barry_Green]

I read that the AF100 even with a nanoflash will still push out 4:2:0 color.
Nonsense.


Would you prefer the 4/3" chips even at 4:2:0 color over the EX1R with 1/2" chips and 4:2:2 color... both using nanos of course capturing at 100Mb/s.
That's a question nobody will have to answer, because the HD-SDI and HDMI on the AF100 are going to certainly be 4:2:2.

The only question is whether the AF100 would be 8-bit or 10-bit, and again, for a nano user, that would be irrelevant because the nanoflash records 8-bit.

As for a true comparison between those two, we'd have to see them both to be sure. But in regards to your question: I think you'll find that almost everyone would prefer the bigger chip... people are using DSLRs just for the bigger chip, even with all the compromises that it involves. People will put up with no decent audio inputs, no manual controls, heck - not even 24fps, they'd conform the 5D's 30p to 24fps, they'd put up with no exposure tools (no zebras, no waveform, no vectorscope, no "marker"), they'll put up with having to record double-system sound and then sync up their sound in post, they'll put up with no ability to zoom whatsoever, they'll put up with not even being able to monitor while recording (on the GH1), they'll put up with not being able to shoot wide-angle deep-focus shots because of the moire and aliasing, they'll open up their wallets to buy rigs to cover up the idea that you can't shoot handheld... they'd do almost *anything* to get that huge sensor.

With the AF100, you shouldn't have to sacrifice any of that. The AF100 should be (I said "should" be) the ideal marriage between an EX1 (well, EX3 actually) and DSLR. All the good of both, with none of the drawbacks of either.

If the promise holds, and the images are as sharp and detailed on the AF100 as they are on the EX1, then your choice is: do you want shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses, or not?

But we won't know the real answers until we get to use a working model.

[Kindredmachine]

I was suprised to hear that as well but here the article that states Panasonic said "live raw output will be 4:2:0 color"... DVX doesn't allow me to post the full URL without blocking it, but it's... http://eoshd (dot com) /content.php?157-Panasonic-AF100-features-RAW

[Zephyrnoid]

Awesome post. I'm with you, but tired of strumming my fingers waiting for the 'convergence' to gel.


Nonsense.


That's a question nobody will have to answer, because the HD-SDI and HDMI on the AF100 are going to certainly be 4:2:2.

The only question is whether the AF100 would be 8-bit or 10-bit, and again, for a nano user, that would be irrelevant because the nanoflash records 8-bit.

As for a true comparison between those two, we'd have to see them both to be sure. But in regards to your question: I think you'll find that almost everyone would prefer the bigger chip... people are using DSLRs just for the bigger chip, even with all the compromises that it involves. People will put up with no decent audio inputs, no manual controls, heck - not even 24fps, they'd conform the 5D's 30p to 24fps, they'd put up with no exposure tools (no zebras, no waveform, no vectorscope, no "marker"), they'll put up with having to record double-system sound and then sync up their sound in post, they'll put up with no ability to zoom whatsoever, they'll put up with not even being able to monitor while recording (on the GH1), they'll put up with not being able to shoot wide-angle deep-focus shots because of the moire and aliasing, they'll open up their wallets to buy rigs to cover up the idea that you can't shoot handheld... they'd do almost *anything* to get that huge sensor.

With the AF100, you shouldn't have to sacrifice any of that. The AF100 should be (I said "should" be) the ideal marriage between an EX1 (well, EX3 actually) and DSLR. All the good of both, with none of the drawbacks of either.

If the promise holds, and the images are as sharp and detailed on the AF100 as they are on the EX1, then your choice is: do you want shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses, or not?

But we won't know the real answers until we get to use a working model.

[Barry_Green]

I was suprised to hear that as well but here the article that states Panasonic said "live raw output will be 4:2:0 color"... DVX doesn't allow me to post the full URL without blocking it, but it's... http://eoshd (dot com) /content.php?157-Panasonic-AF100-features-RAW
Get your news from accurate sources. There is not a single doubt in my mind whatsoever that it will be full 4:2:2 output.

[Kindredmachine]

Well that's music to my ears, I appreciate all of your input and it looks like I'm just going to hold off until the AF100 comes out. :thumbsup:

[mcgeedigital]

Get your news from accurate sources. There is not a single doubt in my mind whatsoever that it will be full 4:2:2 output.

Any news on wether the output will be 8 or 10 bit, sir?

[Barry_Green]

Any news on wether the output will be 8 or 10 bit, sir?
No news of any such type, but I do hope to know more soon.

I won't be surprised if the output is 8-bit; all the AG-series are 8-bit, all the AJ's are 10-bit (except the HPX300/370, which is an AG but was built by the AJ factory, so it's a bit of a crossover).

I'm hoping for 10, but won't be surprised if it's 8-bit within a 10-bit wrapper.

[maranfilms]

hd-sdi would be somewhat pointless in a 4:2:0 color space. I can't imagine they would build this camera with all it's wonderful specs and only have 4:2:0 color space. But then again, I have seen weirder things happen.

[Kindredmachine]

Barry_Green, since I have your attention (which I greatly appreciate) I'm eyeing a SmallHD DP6 field monitor and they have a version with SDI and one without. I'm curious if one could output HDMI video to your field monitor AND output SDI video to your nanoflash simultaniously? Or when it comes to the signal going out, is it only one or the other at one time?

If that's the case, theirs a DP6 monitor with 2 SDI "ports" (for passthrough)... I'm assuming I could then run a SDI signal into the monitor and then out to a nanoflash (or vice versa) at the same time right?

[cukasa]

Hello guys, AG-AF100 (HD-SDI out) + AG-HPG20 (HD-SDI in) me have AVCintra 100 compression = 1920 x 1080/10-bit 4:2:2 sampling

[Kindredmachine]

Hello guys, AG-AF100 (HD-SDI out) + AG-HPG20 (HD-SDI in) me have AVCintra 100 compression = 1920 x 1080/10-bit 4:2:2 sampling

What are you talking about? The AF100 captures in AVCHD unless you bypass through HD-SDI but who knows what the specs are. They havn't been released yet.

[Barry_Green]

I'm curious if one could output HDMI video to your field monitor AND output SDI video to your nanoflash simultaniously?
We don't know. Nobody's seen a working version of the camera.

If I had to bet, I'd bet that it's one or the other. On all the other AG cameras, enabling HD-SDI or HDMI will disable component output, so I would bet that you have to choose HD-SDI or HDMI. But to be sure, we'll need more details to be released by the company.


If that's the case, theirs a DP6 monitor with 2 SDI "ports" (for passthrough)... I'm assuming I could then run a SDI signal into the monitor and then out to a nanoflash (or vice versa) at the same time right?
That's the right way to go. Frankly HDMI is a consumer connection and if you've ever got the choice of HD-SDI over HDMI, take it. HDMI is a non-locking cable, HD-SDI uses a locking BNC connector. Plus, HD-SDI outputs timecode over the data stream, something that HDMI cannot do.

If your camera only has HDMI, then use it, but if you've ever got the choice, always go HD-SDI.

[Kindredmachine]

Thank you. I just pre-ordered the DP6 with HD-SDI. You've been a huge help!

[g3nov3s3]

Does anyone know if recording in 4:2:2 from HD-SDI would improve the quality over AVCHD?
IF the captured image is only from 1920*1080 pixels there are 960*540 blue and red pixels so the 4:2:0 color space of AVCHD should be more than enough.

[LyleHolmes]

We just started shooting with the AF100. SDI out to a Mac via Blackmagic Decklink 3D Extreme. It's pretty good. Uncompressed 4:2:2 ... 8bit in a 10bit wrapper (according to Panasonic tech support). We captured a number of projects this week in 1080i. Files are huge, of course, 158MB/s

We have one problem...we would like to capture 720/30p. However, when capturing 720/30p after about a minute and 15 seconds, FCP throws up an drop frame error and cancels the capture. No problem with 1080i. So it's not a drive issue or cpu capacity issue. The 720/30p files are about 106MB/s. If we end the capture before the 1:15, it records just fine. Hmm?

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Trying recording in 720/29.97. The resulting video will still be 30p if that's what the camera is outputting.