The Essence Of a Bad Guy

[pveal]

I just woke woke up, was dreaming about bad guys,. Who are we? What are we? We are easy to pigeon hole "who are you?" "the bad guy". Look at the bad guys in previous films:

Ian Holm, in Alien
Paul Reiser in Aliens

As these 2 guys as an example of bad guy i can see many common factors: they are both smart, diligent, dressed like cooks, unemotional, clean. (ok Paul Reiser doesn't look like a cook)

Terminator: Same as above minus 'cooks' comment.

leave this thread open because i actually have to go and cook whilst my wife deals with an alien

[4100xpb]

John August has a good article on villains. The gist of it was that good villains are rarely pure evil. There are more like the hero of their side of the story. What differentiates them from the good guys is the decisions they make and reasons they make them.

To take the terminator example, is the Terminator evil? From our perspective, yes, but from the other view Skynet is running the world in good order now, except for this one stinkin' band of rebels. Capturing or killing them is a necessity for maintaining the law and order of their world. From their perspective, they're not doing evil, they're doing what any police/paramilitary force would do in the circumstances. And that makes it all the more scary to the viewer.

Taking it down to the Terminator's level, he probably doesn't consider himself some minion of the great evil machinery of Skynet, he's a cop or a soldier on a mission to put down the rebels that threaten to destroy his world. He knows that if he doesn't and the rebels win, they will completely destroy everything on the machines side - he's trying to stop a genocide!

[Knoxworth]

In many genres of film the villain has to be the most fleshed out character because the movie's sole existence depends on his arrival. "How is this day different?" The day is different thanks to the goals, values, and actions of the film's antagonist. Dark Knight for instance. The Joker directly challenges Batman's values.

The hero is just a response to the villain's actions, values, goals.

The most important thing is the audience's point of view. I wager this is the *only* common factor between all villains which makes these characters villains. Look at the film PayBack. Look at the Godfather. Look at most serial TV shows: Dexter, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Weeds, The Riches, 24, Lost, Boardwalk Empire etc etc.

The heroes of these stories would typically be perceived as villains. They do dubious things. They have twisted moral compasses. Yet we cheer for Dexter. We empathize with Michael Corleone. These evil characters are heroes. The reason why these particular characters are heroes is because we the audience emotionally invest in them. We see details in their lives, we see where they are coming from. Remember: Evil is not synonymous with villain. The audience could easily empathize with an evil person, a hero.

So in order to create a true villain (in the sense you mean) you must create a character in which the audience will not become emotionally invested. In this sense a really nice guy, even the Pope, can become a villain doing little more than by holding mass in a church.

Intelligent? Clean? There are no set rules. That's what's so beautiful about it.

[frntstflms]

A villain is the personification of any force that opposes your hero. I'm beginning to realize that it is really rather irrelevant whether your villain is "bad."

You can conceivably have a good Nazi or a bad Nazi... It really doesn't matter. It's just the role he plays. What's important is -- Does he oppose your hero?

The BEST debates are not black and white. When you cannot be certain who is right, the tension gets ramped. It becomes unpredictable who will win (or who "should" win). Satan just exists to give God contrast. Whose to say who's right? But like jousting of old, we assume the winner must be [right]. (But is he?)

[Zblock]

A villain is the personification of any force that opposes your hero. I'm beginning to realize that it is really rather irrelevant whether your villain is "bad."

You can conceivably have a good Nazi or a bad Nazi... It really doesn't matter. It's just the role he plays. What's important is -- Does he oppose your hero?

The BEST debates are not black and white. When you cannot be certain who is right, the tension gets ramped. It becomes unpredictable who will win (or who "should" win). Satan just exists to give God contrast. Whose to say who's right? But like jousting of old, we assume the winner must be [right]. (But is he?)


Quite right... on everything but the God and Satan part.