A cinematographer's view...Don't believe the hype

[Theodore_Lederman]

REVIEW OF THE CAMERA BY A FAMOUS DIRECTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY WHO HAS SHOT EVERYTHING, FROM SD DVX THROUGH HD VARICAM THROUGH 35 MM FEATURES: http://www.cinematography.com/forum...opic=1611&st=30 Just checked out the XL2 at the DV Expo in NYC, and I must say that I'm severely UNimpressed. It has alias issues like crazy and the color space seemed very poor, with faces mushing into flat pink or orange fields. I didn't see much in the way of solid blacks with the contrast looking very compressed in general. There wasn't any video noise, but I could easily see gridding from the small pixels. And Canon's "pixel-shift" technology gave it that "nothing's really sharp" look, at least to my eye. They had a demo running that really didn't do them any favors. Some 30p arial shots of NYC aliased so bad that it was very distracting. And a sequence with a police car at night had obvious vertical smear on the flashing lights of the squad car -- how eighties! I could really see what I'm guessing were some of the issues of an 8-bit sampling v. the DVX100A's 12-bit. I walked over to the Panasonic booth and Jan Crittenden had a fun time telling me all about why her product was better (and I wouldn't expect anything else from her). According to Jan, the way that Canon uses their chip, the 16:9 area they utilize is almost the exact same size as the DVX100A's 16:9 when letterboxing. And when the Canon switches to 4:3 the image area is smaller than a 1/4" sensor. But forgetting sensor size, I simply saw so many DSP issues that I'd seen solved so long ago in other cameras that I was quite stunned. The DVX100A looks so much better IMHO. Canon has improved on the XL-1s, but not by much. Certainly not enough to interest me. -------------------- Mitch Oh, and the story coming out of Canon now where they're backtracking on the 8-bit and saying it's "third-generation technology" so they don't really KNOW what bit rate it rworks at is utter BULLSHIT. There's no way anyone could have written any code for that camera if they didn't know the bitrate. Nothing would function. Note to the Canon reps at the DV Expo: Everyone else was laughing at you over this one! I will say that the new color LCD viewfinder was a big improvement over the old one, but that's not really saying much now is it? And the image lagged like crazy when I panned or zoomed. The new 20x zoom appeared okay but I didn't really get a chance to properly put it through its paces. I could tell that it lost at least a full stop if not two on the telephoto end. Again, I was NOT impressed with this camera. I'd sooner buy the DVX100A even if it were priced more, instead of $1500 less. Resolution is not the only measure of performance, not by a long shot. -------------------- Mitch I played with three different XL2 cameras at the show and grilled some of the staff there (some are just hired camera ops or editors working the booth so you have to know or learn who to ask). I went through all the settings on the cameras and knew exactly what was happening and where. I also saw many of these issues watching Canon's own presentation tape, which one would think would be designed to put their best face forward. Don't show me aliasing and vertical streaking here guys! Canon had a "test studio" set up with a lit manniquin in a little dressed set. But it was lit very carefully to perhaps a three stop range--of course the picture will look okay there! First thing I did was spin the camera around to point up the escalator and out the window of the convention hall to judge how it handled mixed color and highlights. You should have seen how quickly the Canon rep tried to stand in my way! Move it lady! Again, tech specs are one thing and actual performance is another. You would be surprised how well the DVX100A does simply letterboxed to 16:9. I've seen footage shot this way then uprezzed to HD and the results were very impressive, far more than I ever thought they deserved to be. Nancy Schreiber shot "November" this way. Should I ever do a 35mm filmout from this camera I would look into the adaptors but I would seriously consider the simple letterbox as well. You may be quite pleasantly surprised with the image quality. Remember, resolution isn't everything. I'd take a really well-performing SD camera over a poorly performing HDV camera any day.

[scharky]

I'm a tad confused. Who is this famous DP? I followed the link and it brought me to a XL2 spec sheet, but I didn't see anything that showed this review. Wow, those are some pretty strong accusations. I really don't know what to think.

[PaulK]

For a pro, he didn't sound very professional. ::)

Why get so worked up if the camera doesn't perform well? Simply don't buy one.

I hope it's B.S. I'm glad I got the DVX, but I'm all for newer and better camcorders. It's all about evolution -- a win-win for everyone.

[Kidster]

Theo,
I see that you wrote or perhaps quoted the DP giving the review, but the link you gave there is no famous DP review. Can you give us the correct link? Also, what is the name of the DP?

[Barry_Green]

Sounds like Mitch Gross. And if it is, I'd take a careful listen. Mitch posts almost as much as David Mullen, and he's extremely well informed on all manner of cameras, shot lots of indie features on lots of formats.

I'd still say let's put it through its paces side-by-side, but I would also listen carefully to anything Mitch Gross has to say.

[Antoine_Fabi]

i want to see A/B shots of the very same scenes...
The XL2 grabs i've seen so far dont tell me it is that bad...in fact, they seems to be very clean and beautifull.

...but Mitch Gross's report is quite explicit and well informed though...

so maybe these grabs have been taken under "perfect" conditions...

[dvpixl]

and i can say that anything taken under perfect conditions look really good. damn it, I mean even 8mm camcorders.

[disjecta]

By the way, the cinematographer in question is, in fact, Mitch Gross. In fact, I'm part of an email forum from Cinematography.net and he's still going on and on about how much he didn't care for the camera's aliasing, in particular...

[skippyfetus]

Is there really such a thing as a famous DP?

[Barry_Green]

Mitch is very informed, and he is a punch-in-the-mouth straight shooter too.

But even so, I'd still caution that brief exposure at a trade show is not enough to tell us what it can really do. I still have high hopes for it, I think it'd make a fine second camera to a DVX... but only if it delivers the goods. I hope it does.

[Theodore_Lederman]

and i can say that anything taken under perfect conditions look really good. damn it, I mean even 8mm camcorders.
I disagree...With an XL1, you won't fool any professional into thinking it's film...With a DVX, I've fooled Senior colorists BEFORE a telecine correction.

[Theodore_Lederman]

Mitch is very informed, and he is a punch-in-the-mouth straight shooter too.

But even so, I'd still caution that brief exposure at a trade show is not enough to tell us what it can really do. *I still have high hopes for it, I think it'd make a fine second camera to a DVX... but only if it delivers the goods. *I hope it does.
Barry, you are probably the sharpest, technically, of any shooters that I've seen post on any of these forums...Not to say not visually as well I'd love to see your work and haven't. It was Mitch, and I agree with you about him, and I pull no punches myself...But I took one look at ther DVX picture under the awful flouro trade show lighting, and still could see it's potential...the post was merely to calm the" Damn I didn't wait for the Canon to come out" folks...Just trying to settle some nerves...Alot of the younger shooters worry about settings and Rates and blah blah...With the exception of the shutter and Iris, I shoot in default and filter externally with good results...They want a cinematic result, shooting like a Vidiot, and that won't happen...There's no "Master Ped" that can compensate for intelligent and artistic lighting choices...

[Theodore_Lederman]

Is there really such a thing as a famous DP?
When you work in the industry, yes there is...

[Barry_Green]

Is there really such a thing as a famous DP?
Conrad Hall?

Vittorio Storaro?

Janusz Kaminski?

Those are just the first three that popped in to my head. Granted, if your point was "has anyone outside the industry ever heard of any cinematographer's name", the answer would be "no" -- other than Danny Moder, who married Julia Roberts, perhaps. But in the industry, yes there is such a thing as a famous cinematographer.

[Theodore_Lederman]

other than Danny Moder, who married Julia Roberts, perhaps. *But in the industry, yes there is such a thing as a famous cinematographer.
HaHa...Funny thing is...Danny was a Loader on "The Mexican"
when he met her...He didn't become a umm..."D.P." (ahem) until he became Mr. Julia Roberts...

[Barry_Green]

Er... well, y'know, I stand corrected!

[Caution]

AWW we have Fan boys, the camera is not even out yet :-X chill out guys i know you guys are owners of dvx100's but sooner or later something is going to come out thats going to be 10times better and i really hope it does so then maybe we can get a hand on it and make great low budget films. So what does this Famous dp have to say about the new Sony HDVcam http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony-hdv-prototype-camcorder-03_17_04.htm or the new JVC http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/jvc-hdv-3ccd-cmos-nab-2004-camcorder-04_09_04.htm well ask your famous DP what he thinks about these cameras I am sure he saw these as well... ;D did he have a bone to pick with these too ?

[David Jimerson]

Considering neither of those was a working model and rather mock-ups made from balsa wood, there's not much TO say . . . * *:o

"Fan boys," indeed . . .

[Theodore_Lederman]

AWW we have Fan boys, the camera is not even out yet :-X chill out guys i know you guys are owners of dvx100's but sooner or later something is going to come out thats going to be 10times better and i really hope it does so then maybe we can get a hand on it and make great low budget films. So what does this Famous dp have to say about the new Sony HDVcam *http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony-hdv-prototype-camcorder-03_17_04.htm or the new JVC http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/jvc-hdv-3ccd-cmos-nab-2004-camcorder-04_09_04.htm well ask your famous DP what he thinks about these cameras I am sure he saw these as well... ;D did he have a bone to pick with these too ?
The Sony HD without 24p won't be very cinematic, so how can you even compare it? And to quote your own link on the JVC..." The source also stated that the camcorder would be priced in the $20,000 price range" That's not a very good comp there either Einstein...I've shot with the Sony 900 HD and it's a boat anchor compared to the cheaper Varicam...But the Panny is in the 3500 dollar price range, and nothing has come close to that in my book...Maybe you're right, and Canon will come up with a 10 dollar camera that out performs a 535 Arri, but it doesn't look like it will be any time soon...

[Caution]

Well i really hope the canon xl2 sets a new standard :)

[Mike_Donis]

I hope so too!

But I won't be able to afford it, and will still get killer footage from my DVX :D

[Theodore_Lederman]

Captain JAck...I see you're from Miami...What's your name?

[Caution]

Theo I kind of try keeping pvt as possible sorry:-[

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *SAVVY ?

[cur-sed_neil]

there are two "V"'s in savvy.
and it should be posed like a question.
Savvy?
::)

[infokill]

the xl2 robbed my uncle, and slapped my momma!
dont buy it! :-/

[Caution]

cur-sed_neil

I didnt know i was in english class but any ways my mistake i will add another V to Savy = Savvy

Savvy ;D

[Guest]

Hey everyone, I'm not sure who this famous DP is but he sounds like a plant, especially when he refers to the "mannequin"...it was a live girl named Kendall....kinda funny..........Jim