Don't Buy The XL2, or What Are The Options

[the_director]

I'd like to summarize the XL2 and other options the indie filmmaker has:

16:9 near native CCDs, with serious color fringing and no W/A lens made for such dense CCD pixels and you need the W/A since the 20x zoom has no W/A range. If the 20x performs excellent at the lowest focal length setting, then W/A adapter could be used.

We are entering era of HD. This is the last SD model Canon developed. New HDV cameras should have excellent picture quality, close to Varicam's. Varicam costs $90K with lens and only uses 40 Mbps effective stream at 24p. HDV is using 19 and 25 Mbps and 2x as efficient codec.

Do you want to buy the last SD model Canon will make? DiD Canon really invest all its effort into something that is getting obsolete?

My suggestin: If you want to make a movie, rent the camera. Or even get the new 1/3" CCD $1K 25p Sony camera, shoot in 50i, deinterlace it and you'll end up with pretty good picture, with the same DOF as the Canon; the chip is also 16:9. Save your money for the coming up afforadble HD/HDV. That is my suggestion.

The wide angle of the DVX is a lot more important for filmmaking than the extra telephoto range of the XL2.

If you want to buy the NTSC version of XL2 for filmmaking, realize that you can buy for less the PAL version of the DVX. It has more horizontal lines than the PAL version and you can eventually have it modified for uncompressed recording by that guy from dvinfo.

You can probably also get the XL2 modified, but this is not certain right now.

SI just released preliminary specs on their $4K 1080/24-60p camera. Same resolution as $100,000 F900, or $40,000 Kinetta. Availability is couple months from now. Recording solutions will be available before the year's end. Assume $10-12K for the camera, hard disc recording and lenses (industrial megapixel lenses for W/A and 35 mm still camera lenses for telephoto).

As to the lens design issue. Good software for optical lens design was developed couple decades ago and is constantly improving and is nowadays integrated to automated manufacturing, that together with the Japan's perfected manufacturing methods (ECON 102) allows for lens to be designed, prototyped and manufactured in one week, if there is a rush. These are standard designs that are used in most camcorders and digital and still film cameras. Special designs or low volume hand assembled designs take naturally longer and can take months nowaday, never years. It took years before WW2. Search the net if you want to know more.

There is also a misconception of how difficult it is to make a good resolving lens for HD. $1000 8 MP digital still camera lens will resolve 8 MP. $30,000 HD zoom will resolve 4 MP. The main difference is that 100,000 of the first and 100 pieces of the other will be made in one year.

[Isaac_Brody]

Have you used any of these cameras? I don't mean to knock you off your soapbox, but there will always be something better around the corner. By the time that next camera comes out you'll be still sitting at the computer prophesizing what the next thing will be. These are all just tools. Go do some storytelling. Enough predictions. I guess my summary is: STOP PREDICTING THE NEXT BIG THING. GO OUT AND SHOOT SOMETHING!

[the_director]

These are my 2 cents. I direct indie films, commercials, and music videos. Do you think that 15 minutes of posting a day, on the average, will kill my schedule on a day off? If you don't like my advice, what advice do you have, if any, or any useful?

[the_director]

there will always be something better around the corner

This time is different. The industry is changing and new affordable quality high res cameras are coming out this year.

[Kidster]

What indie films (plural) have you directed?

[Isaac_Brody]

"what advice do you have, if any, or any useful?"

I think there's a difference between advice and speculation. You have no experience using the XL2, the upcoming Sony 24P handycam, and I wonder if you have any experience using the DVX. I respect your enthusiasm but you seem to take concrete stances and judgments on hardware you have no first hand experience with. You quote technical specs and other peoples opinions from other websites, but again, this is still speculation. You talk about color fringing based on a few jpegs posted and not having used the camera yourself. The XL2 is practically untested as a production tool except for Johnnie's shooting. The Sonycam you talk about is untested as well.

"This time is different. The industry is changing and new affordable quality high res cameras are coming out this year."

Of course the industry's changing. At this time last year we thought that new affordable HD cameras would be available from all the major players. A year later and we're still waiting. It took years for Canon to come out with the XL2. It may take years for them to come out with affordable HD. You can't say that these high res new models are coming out. Except for the companies themselves none of us know when the next great thing will drop.

"New HDV cameras should have excellent picture quality, close to Varicam's. Varicam costs $90K with lens and only uses 40 Mbps effective stream at 24p. HDV is using 19 and 25 Mbps and 2x as efficient codec."

I don't know how you can say this. Again, you have no experience with a varicam and you're speaking about a vaporware product at this point. This is a pretty farfetched statement.

My advice was to go out and shoot something. Having new gear won't make you a better storyteller. Nor will making judgments on unproven and untested hardware. It just spreads bad information and ends up confusing people looking for products to meet their needs.

I too direct films, write, and do music videos, but this has nothing to do with this post.

[Guest]

"We are entering era of HD. This is the last SD model Canon developed. New HDV cameras should have excellent picture quality, close to Varicam's. Varicam costs $90K with lens and only uses 40 Mbps effective stream at 24p. HDV is using 19 and 25 Mbps and 2x as efficient codec."

The JVC apparently doesn't deal with fast motion very well due to the mpeg2 compression's bitrate being to low for that resolution. That's at 720P!! At 1080P it will be 2x as worse and the lowlight would definitely be worse.

[Guest]

at the rate consumrer HD is going, it will be a WHILE before I'm even interested in the technology. SD is here for a whileeeeeeeeeeeeeee still.

[Antoine_Fabi]

so true !

HD will be interesting for us ONLY if we can easyly downconvert HD to SD, because there are very few people that can actually watch HD at home and at work.

Corporations are begining to accept productions in DVD format.
A couple of years ago, they just wanted VHS !

[Barry_Green]

I thought the_director sounded an awful lot like Joseph George...

[Jestorius]

HD is interesting for all of us making a DVD. If the video footage has a higher resolution than the encoding will be better. HD-DVD is comming .... Other standarder are under developping. But it gonna take time. Years and more for the HD camcorder for 5000-8000 ,- . Lat say 4-5 years from now? If you have a Panasonic DVX 100A than don't buy anything. If not than XL2 is a god choice.

[MichaelP]

Varicam is a 720p/60 format at 100Mbs, not 40 - at 23.976fps it is around 78Mbs. . The SDX900 is a 50 Mbs SD version at ~US$22K.

[hvpz]

Joseph George ?
is it the same guy that David Mullen is talking about on cinematography.com ?
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=1887&st=15

for my part, I totally share the opinion of Isaac Brody.

[Barry_Green]

Michael, save your breath. The argument has been made many times, but falls on deaf ears.

Yes, regarding that post by David Mullen, that's exactly who I'm talking about, and this guy's been around for years making the same tedious posts about HD, why the JVC HD1 is great, why the JVC HD1 is horrible, why the Varicam only uses a 40-mbit data rate, and extolling and praising blu-ray DVD's. He's taken a dozen different identities, but is mostly referenced as "Joseph George". He's a troll who endlessly preaches and pontificates and makes outrageous claims based on "inside information".

He used to haunt the DVInfo.net board before they threw him out of there.

See the David Mullen post for more.

[oleg]

dont know about hd , but bext month i am starting xdcam movie that would be blowed to 35 for cinema realise , i would be glad to inform how does it look.

[J.R. Hudson]

Rent a camera? Huh? What? Get the new $1000 Sony? Who? What? Huh?

What in the Hades is going on around here? Who is this guy?

[the_director]

Sorry, I don't know any Joseph George.

Where you can get all this information is at two excellent forums; btw this one is excellent also.

One forum is Cinematography.com. There was a guy named Peter something that talked about the Varicam that records 100 Mbps at 60p; at 24p 60% frames are discarded, making the effective rate 40 Mbps. There is another guy Mitch something that saw the XL2 at DV Expo East and was supposedly the first one who reported image problems. The image problems were confirmed later as color fringing on this forum.

There is another excellent forum dvinfo.net. There is a grad student from Peperdine, EE major, who was able to tap into the DVX CCD A/D converter and is getting out uncompressed signal and some 3 extra f-stops, together with higher resolution. The conversions should be available soon and he is supposedly getting close to 720p out of the DVX because of the pixel shift technology but this has probably not been confirmed yet.

There is also a company SI that developed at one time some 8 MP $40K camera for the military or something. They took a 2/3" 1080p CMOS that will be used in the Kinetta and created a 1080p camera with it that will cost $4K and will be available in a month or two. Some other people are working on recording solution which should be available at the end of the year roughly.

There is a man Haubrich or something that is in charge of software development for one of the NLE solutions, who works extensively with JVC and he cleims that the new generation HDV will be available sooner that everyone thinks and that it will have a quality that is similar to Varicam, which btw records only 960x720 pixels and the new HDV cameras will record full 1280x720p.

Now if you guys don't believe any of this or if you think that the Canon is a camera for you, I could care less.

As to the new Sony $1K 25p camera; the image is excellent; there are two zebra levels, etc. Certainly something to consider if you're on a budget.

If this goes against the standard thought or what is the general belief, go to the forums I described and find the information. I don't have the time to be searching it and posting links. It's all there and maybe a lot more; I did not have the tome to check it lately but i thought that the info I posted here may be helpful to someone who wants to buy a camera in the near feature. That is why I posted it. If you'd rather believe what Canon & Co. and their reps are pushing, fine, buy the XL2, or the Varicam. It's your money.

[kbar]

Mr. director, you may be right in the end, and you may be wrong... only time will tell. But for the amount of resources, 2 (atleast from what i read), you may have made too big of an assumption too quick. And it sounds more like you have a personal resentment with canon and the xl2 rather than a desire to help the buyers make a right choice. In my opinion, you spoke too soon.

And as Arnie said "You move to soon. You have made the first mistake in a crisis situation." --- can anyone Name That Movie!?

cheers!

[triseven]

That's the whole point the_director, you keep talkin' about the future as if its promised to you. *You gotta live for today, man. *If all you can afford right now is a 1K camera its cool but don't knock those who have the funds to buy a higher end camera like the XL2. *There is no perfect camera---yet, we know that, and you're right, HD will soon take over---we know that too but remember, its not always about savin' your money for what's ahead---its about enjoying your life right now. *Some people will be able to afford all the cameras you mentioned without breakin' the bank.

I heard you were savin' up for the DVX for a while now. *Well don't try to "keep up with the Jones's", just make the films you want to make with what you got! *Forget what all the forums are sayin'---go make a film, a doc, a music video, just do somethin'. *While you're murmuring and complaining, analyzin' and strategizin', life is passin' you by kid.

I have a hunch that if you could afford the XL2 you would've never started this post. *Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......? * Best wishes. ;)

[Kidster]

[quote author=the_director link=board=XL2;num=1094394425;start=0#2 date=09/05/04 at 07:47:18]These are my 2 cents. I direct indie films, commercials, and music videos.


I am still waiting for you answer. What indie films have you directed?

[Guest]

Dear Directory:

As a 30+ year professional in the Motion Picture and Video optics industry, your comments about optical design and manufacturing are mis-leading at best--and fabricated from some ones imagination at worst.

The design protyping and manufacturing of a complex zoom lens for film or video is a long process, typically one year or more--the one week fully automated process you describe is fiction.

If the balance of your comments are cut from the same cloth you are doing the group a dis-service for posting these things as tho they were fact.

Bill Turner
Schneider Optics, Century Division

[monte]

I can say with all honesty that you will be seeing a HD prosumer camera within the next 2-3 years, next year is doubtful.

Cryptic and vague, yes-- a lie, no...

[PFP_VIDEO]

I'd wait untill the XL2 has been put through it's paces before you run out and buy one. I'm not going to go into any issues I may have heard from a few lucky new XL2 owners ( the XL2watchdog spys would flame my ass ).
A smart consumer waits for the feedback and reviews, and in the end you could end up saving some $$$.

[the_director]

The Germans and the Japanese design and manufacture leses differently, and different lenses too. Sanyo can order a zoom lens for their consumer camcorder and if in rush a prototype can be delivered by Tamron in 1 week. Once the prototype is satisfactory, production can be strted in another week, if there is a rush. I saw a Tamron tape on that.

The Germans, like the Schneiders and the Zeisses lost their war with the Japanese with electronics, optics, and so forth long ago. There is a lot of Zeiss made in Japan and a lot of Schneider made in Korea, and a lot of Leica made in Taiwan. There are no Japanese lenses made in Germany.

Look at Samsung. It's all Schneider lens and when a photography magazine tested the cameras, the lens quality was rather questionable.

HD cameras will not be here in 3 or 5 years as some of you think. Both Sony and JVC new HDV cameras will be shown shortly in Holland.

As to what films I made; nothing that was a commercial success yeat but this may change soon.

As to a zoom lens for video that takes Schneider more than a year to develop? I believe it. I just wonder how long does it for Samsung to develop a cheap zoom lens for their point and shoot camera and then put Schneider name on it.

When it comes to new or complex designs, the situation is different. If it comes to hand assembled HD lenses the situation is different. If it comes to 3:1 zoom lens for a digital 5 MP camera, it's one week to prototype, if there is a rush.

[J_Barnes]

I don't know anyone who likes tamron lenses, so to point to some tamron marketing tape that you’ve supposedly seen and quote that as factual information regarding the state of the lens business…well, that’s just not very well researched or thought out.

Above, Bill Turner completely refutes parts of your statements, specifically dealing with the manufacturing of lenses. For those who don’t know, Bill Turner is the vice president of the Century Division of Schneider Optics…not exactly your every day opinionated DVXuser.

You respond with:

When it comes to new or complex designs, the situation is different. If it comes to hand assembled HD lenses the situation is different. If it comes to 3:1 zoom lens for a digital 5 MP camera, it's one week to prototype, if there is a rush.

Whaaa??? You backtrack and say that your statements refer to 5mp consumer digicams and not to HD lenses???

Lets get specific…the camera you’re alluding to: the Samsung v50 5 megapixel camera with the “Schneider” lens. The lens on this camera is a plastic f 2.8-4.9 lens with an optical range of 7.7 to 23.1 mm (equivalent to a 38 to 113mm in 35mm terms). You’re comparing the XL2’s 20x glass zoom lens to a plastic lens under 2mm in diameter, and stating that since a (guestimate) 12mm 3x zoom lens can be made in under a week, a 58mm+ 20x glass zoom lens should be just as easy. That isn’t logical or truthful by any stretch of the imagination.

DVXUser is a community based on the well-intended advice and information of the users who post here. Coming onto this forum and posting half-truths, pure conjecture and outright lies as fact serves only to depreciate the relevance of the information traded in this community.

You can’t just bend whatever facts you find online to fit your opinions, it just suggests that you are either a boarish idiot or you have malicious intent, and neither are welcome here.

[the_director]

Look at how Century Optics designs HD lenses. They take standard Minolta and Canon lenses, do minor modification and jack up the price 20x

[J_Barnes]

Regular idiocy is perfectly welcome, as my presence here attests, it’s just the obnoxiously opinionated and unresearched version that’s so offensive.

[the_director]

Why these attacks? Are you repping for someone?

[J_Barnes]

I'm repping for the DVXUser community in this case, and if you'd take the time to read my post above, you'd understand exactly what my point is.

Part of interacting with the DVXUser community requires contributing in a positive way. Opinions are fine until they're passed off as fact, as you seem to have done a lot recently. In this case, your "facts" are not very well researched or supported and thus take on the appearance of "lies".

Instead of viewing my posts here as "attacks" against you, you should view them as suggestions on the required “decorum for the forum”.

[Barry_Green]

J_Barnes is speaking the opinions of many of us here. J_Barnes is a highly respected member of the forum, and he's telling you how things are done here. Your slander of Century Optics is just another example of the kind of behavior we don't want on this board.

[gcaus]

the_director,

I'm not sure you realize how your style appears here.

It *is* becoming bothersome because we count on people's information, even if we need to take it with "a grain of salt".

You simply need to either sound more humble, or if you actually think you know what your talking about, rethink your position, because your information is clearly not always correct. Mine isn't either, but I'm not expressing it with the firm convictions you are.

Again, I think this may be your writing style, and I think people are just asking you to be careful. Tone down your opinion a bit, and you'll be more welcome here.

I've set up a lot of manufacturing lines in my life, and I can assure you that it takes a long time to make changes. You can't even change the color of a camera in a short time, much less add a cheap lens, quickly. It clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge in this area. (Actually color is about the only thing that could be changed pretty easily, but even the dyes might change something, and you have brochures to worry about, and a million other things to coordinate with.)

And, yes, I know about this area because I helped dozens of companies set up their manufacturing facilities in one of my "past" lives...

-Jerry

[gcaus]

Monte,

I guess you are reconsidering your post now that the HD Sony is out, or is that not prosumer? ;D

I'm pretty stunned Sony kept it under wraps so long. I wonder what other surprises are coming our way.

Maybe a DVX100 HD in December? Hey, let's start that rumor!

;D ;D ;D

[J_Barnes]

J_Barnes is speaking the opinions of many of us here. *J_Barnes is a highly respected member of the forum, and he's telling you how things are done here. *Your slander of Century Optics is just another example of the kind of behavior we don't want on this board.

Woah...when did I get to be respected? Someone should tell my family about this...they've been waiting.

And no props for "decorum for the forum"? I thought that was pretty witty.

[kbar]

"Some one should tell my family"

LMAO!!

Thats hilarious!

[Barry_Green]

Your "forum decorum" was a tandem twosome worthy of an up-thumb (er, well, thumbs-up, y'know)...

[PFP_VIDEO]

"His latest incarnation as Pete Wright was more benign than the others -- and he might have been allowed to stay -- had he not started abusing the system again by increasing his daily posts with variations on the "x versus the Varicam" arguments. Plus going into the Super-8 users forum and responding to someone's enthusiastic post "how do we celebrate Super-8's anniversary?" with a comment that the format is dying."
If you sir are the same person as Peter Wright, I am personally insulted by your prescence. Super 8 may be dead to you, but I continue to use the format for experimental projects. Perhaps a dual at sunset will settle this once and for all.

[the_director]

I've set up a lot of manufacturing lines in my life, and I can assure you that it takes a long time to make changes. *You can't even change the color of a camera in a short time, much less add a cheap lens, quickly. *It clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge in this area. *(Actually color is about the only thing that could be changed pretty easily, but even the dyes might change something, and you have brochures to worry about, and a million other things to coordinate with.)

And, yes, I know about this area because I helped dozens of companies set up their manufacturing facilities in one of my "past" lives...

-Jerry

You are telling me to be humble and of how you setup manufacturing lines in your past life. I assume Amercan manufacturing lines. And you are right. But Japanese manufacturing lines are 100% automated and programmable. It takes any American car manufacturer a year to setup manufacturing line for a new model. It takes any Japanese maker 8 hours. The American manufacturer takes out everything. The machinery is changed; the industrial computers are reconfigured and reprogrammed. The Japanese manufacturer is using the same machines and everyhing else. He just downloads a new program. And a shift later a new model rolls out, with a lot less defects than the American one (ECON 102). So please don't tell me to be humble unless you talk to me in a humble way.

I don't state things that are not a fact. I said that there will be Sony progressive model available on 1st of September. I said that there will be new quality HDV models introduced soon. I backed it all out with sources; sometimes not right away, but I did after you guys started complaining. I said that the XL2 has problem with the image quality. I backed it up where I got my information. I informed you of the DVX project and the SI HD camera project. I got immediately back all kinds of stuff that that is not corrct, that it will take years that HD cameras will be out and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Well, I'm done. Live in your world. I'm back to a real one. I tried to provide you with a more accurate information than some fables of years it takes for a lens to be designed.

[scharky]

Wow
That's all I can say. . .

Other than, quoting other online forums does not make something a fact. *I have read all of those sites that you have quoted, and can honestly say that some of those things like the kinetta and the 4:4:4 DVx sound great and I'm sure they are great future solutions. *But just because something is on the internet does not make it a fact. *IT seems like all of your information is coming from online forums, and this does not constitute worthy resources. *99% of college classes that I have taken will not let you site a website in your bibliography for that very reason. *Just look at all the hype of the XL2, 3 years before it was even released. *THE XL2 is coming THE XL2 is coming and it will be HD this and Super duper that. *Sure it eventually came, but all those people sitting around twittling their thumbs waiting for the XL2, since 2001, missed out on some great cameras and probably excellent shooting opportunities. *Too bad, so sad.

[J_Barnes]

You are telling me to be humble and of how you setup manufacturing lines in your past life. I assume Amercan manufacturing lines. And you are right. But Japanese manufacturing lines are 100% automated and programmable. It takes any American car manufacturer a year to setup manufacturing line for a new model. It takes any Japanese maker 8 hours. The American manufacturer takes out everything. The machinery is changed; the industrial computers are reconfigured and reprogrammed. The Japanese manufacturer is using the same machines and everyhing else. He just downloads a new program. And a shift later a new model rolls out, with a lot less defects than the American one (ECON 102). So please don't tell me to be humble unless you talk to me in a humble way.


Again, we shall never see any facts to support these bizzare statements. What do car manufacturers have to do with anything discussed in this thread or in any thread on DVXUser.com?


Well, I'm done. Live in your world. I'm back to a real one. I tried to provide you with a more accurate information than some fables of years it takes for a lens to be designed.


...and with that, the Troll crawled back beneith his bridge, vowing to exact his "professional director" retribution at an unspecified later date.

[Bill__Turner]

Dear Director,

you made the following comment:

Look at how Century Optics designs HD lenses. They take standard Minolta and Canon lenses, do minor modification and jack up the price 20x .

This sort of nonsense is the reason I have typically refrained from participating in on line forums and chat groups. There is so much mis-information and plain mean spirited comments it is appalling.

I am assuming (which I suspect with you is dangerous) that you are referring to the 28-70mm Minolta and 17-35mm Canon SLR lenses that we modify for use on 35mm motion picture cameras. Rather than bore everyone with an explanation of the complexity of the modifications, please stop by our manufacturing facility in Van Nuys California and I would be pleased to show you our facility and how the lenses are modified.

By the way the selling price of the modified lense is only 10X the cost of the unmodified lens at dealer cost.

Bill Turner
Century Optics
Schneider Division

[Barry_Green]

Mr. Turner, if you've noticed, the_director has exhibited behavior that many, many members of this forum have been calling him/her on. The slander against Century Optics was galling, and several of us have been calling for the_director to just plain knock it off or leave the board.

That behavior is not typical of the average DVXUser member.

[EARTH_TOME]

at the rate consumrer HD is going, it will be a WHILE before I'm even interested in the technology. SD is here for a whileeeeeeeeeeeeeee still.

Agreed.

In a decade it might be worth looking into. But even then, if you got the skills - the camera should not matter.

[Mike_Donis]

I agree with that idea - skill is the most important aspect - but let's be realistic. While a bad cinematographer will not make good looking footage regardless, if Conrad Hall shot most of his stuff with a low-end SD video camera, it wouldn't have looked as good.

A good cinematographer can reap the benefits of the better technology...

[PFP_VIDEO]

Mr Turner,
If the offer is extended to others in the forum, I would love to see the Century Optics manufacturing facility. I may be in the west coast in a month or so. Is it possible?

[Gary_McClurg]

I thought the_director sounded an awful lot like Joseph George...

Then PFP_VIDEO wrote "His latest incarnation as Pete Wright was more benign than the others --

Gee that's who I was starting to think he was... also is he related to the_producer. sorry the_producer if he's not.

[yevlar]

And as Arnie said "You move to soon. You have made the first mistake in a crisis situation." --- can anyone Name That Movie!?

cheers!

I just have to chime in at this point, just to add fuel to get this thread up to Ludicrous Speed...

It's actually "You have forgotten the first rule in a crisis situation" (Yeah, I'm a jerk. Sorry.) - and that was "Twins," directed by Ivan Reitman. One of "The Great Action-Star-Changing-Image-Comedies" of the 1980's.

Sorry, I just love movie quotes. But, of course, I forget what the first rule in a crisis situation was....

I guess, when all else fails, Duck!

And, by the by, from my experience with online message boards over the years, I've found that the best way to exterminate trolls is to NOT respond to their idiocy. I know that people do have reputations to protect, but I find it far more rewarding to protect one's sanity.

[Bill__Turner]

Dear PFP_VIDEO and others.

We would be pleased to have anyone interested visit our facility in Van Nuys when they are in the area. Our normal hours are 8-4:30 M-F. Please contact us by email or phone ahead if possible to make sure that someone will be available - but it is typically not a problem even if you just show up. www.centuryoptics.com or email me bturner@centuryoptics.com

Thankyou for your interest.

Bill Turner
Century Division, Schneider Optics