What's with all the Canon Bashing?

[Mogambi]

OK, sorry, I just don't understand it. You love the DVX. Got it. It's a revolutionary camera. Got it. But remember, the XL1 was there a long time ago, and IT was a revolutionary camera too, a high-quality cheap DV camera with interchangable lenses, blah blah blah. Not as if the DVX was the first and only great DV camera ever made.

Of COURSE the XL2 is going to be evolutionary. What did people expect for a new version of an existing camera. I assure you that if a DVX2 comes out, it's going to EVOLUTIONARY too.

The fact is, it's nice to have the XL2 there as an alternative. I personally am leaning towards that camera for a couple of simple reasons that I think are wrong with the DVX, mainly a stronger zoom, a shoulder rest, and better aquisition of 16:9 material.

Yeah, the DVX is smaller, better for un-obtrusive work, has a nicer LCD screen, nice cheap batteries available from this site, etc.

There is no one camera best for all people, but it's just amazing to me to keep reading all these 'We're the F*CKING BEST, and they SUCK' posts. I understand it though. You've spent all this money, so you justify by comvincing yourself that you MUST have the best camera there is. Something new comes out, you kick yourself cause you JUST bought yours, and then you think, 'ah, they're A$$holes, my DVX rulez, and the XL2 people are all posers'.

Fact is, they're both likely really nice cameras.

Nuff said.

[Josh_Boelter]

Agreed, Mogambi. Since I don't start shooting until mid September at the earliest, I'll take a look at both cameras and then decide which is best for me given what I want to do. Unless either Canon or Panisonic want to sponsor me and give me free equipment, I won't be a slappy for either company. I'll just buy what's best for em.

[David Jimerson]

I've been watching for that specifically, and I don't think it's been like that. Comparisons are going to be made, and the criticisms I've seen of the XL2 have been fairly based on the information already available with a LOT of caveats such as "we'll see what the reviews say!"

There are the typical "oh, I made mistake by buying NOW!" posts, but that happened when the 100A came out, so it's a natural reaction.

But I disagree that Canon *had* to make this an "evolutionary, not revolutionary" camera. That was pure choice, and it was surprising to many.

And I also disagree that we're just dismissing the XL2 out of hand. Jarred certainly isn't, what with accommodating the discussion in its own forum.

And if the DVX200 came along without any groundbreaking improvements over what's already available, you can bet we'd all be criticizing that, too.

[viperforce]

MOgambi, this is DVXuser.com and not XL2user.com what do you expect from a group of people that talk on a forum about the DVX100 or 100A? That would be like going to a Chevy meeting and saying Ford is the best what do you think the Chevy owners would say!

[MovieSwede]

well i think both is going to be good cams, but i doesnt hurt to discuss pros and cons of both. Hey we who are on this community really loves discuss camcorders :)

Of course it always feels good to know that your DVX investment wasnt in vain.

Actually if the cams have about the same picture quality, they will complement each other real good.

[toddmcm]

DVX with interchangable lenses is how I see it.

I'll take one please!

[rocketscience]

i recently bought a new car. It was named automobile of the year by a certain car mag. It's fast, it's fun, and it has 4 doors. On a forum that discusses this particular car, people are upset a new, better version is coming out very soon, albeit for a slightly higher price. They feel 'cheated' that they've owned their car for only a year and a better one is coming.

Thing is, people will always feel this way about technology. If they invest a certain amt of money, they want to feel it was well spent. Forget that newer usually means more $$. Forget that the differences in the aforementioned car can probably only be felt on a racetrack.

Yes something new and maybe better is coming out. But we've had our cameras and used them for a while. Some people with the money will go ahead and upgrade. A few will still feel 'cheated.' Some will say 'should I wait?' You can't always wait for the next best thing; you will wait forever. Look at computers.

I dont think people on this board are bashing. Maybe a couple. Most I think are fairly objective and know what the xl2 may be capable of and are treating it with respect. Meanwhile, we're using and (hopefully) making money with our DVXs. And when something comes out that's worth the money to upgrade (I personally dont think the xl2 is) im sure I will. Be it Canon, Sony, or Panasonic.

[J.R. Hudson]

I wouldnt take any "Canon Bashing" too seriously. Its all in good spirit.

[Slapdragon]

DVX with interchangable lenses is how I see it.

I'll take one please!

And possibly less rugged, but the potential is there. The XL1 was bought by a lot of schools, but did not hold up well in student hands. The XL1s was a bit better. The XL2 may be even more rugged.

It is not a case of loving or hating the DVX, but in discussing a certian product.

[Michael_Lieberman]

Sorry if I Canon bashed, but it was mostly me thinking of the trouble I've had with Canon before, ie broken pixels. It's not that I don't think the XL2 could be revolutionary, it probably is, but that once you get food poisoning from the same restaurant three or four times, logic would say to go elsewhere.

I'm entirely open to the possibilities of this new camera. Any new camera which improves upon an old standard should be good news to all filmmakers and videographers, no? 24p and HD are video's answer to cinemascope and technicolor.

And again, if I sounded sort of unreasonable about Canon, it's not because I am a hardcore Panasonic-head. If anything, it took me months to accept that Panasonic topped Sony and Canon in terms of prosumer video innovations. But from experience, I take Canon with a grain of salt, which in many ways, all technologies should be approached initially.

[MovieSwede]

DVX with interchangable lenses is how I see it.

I'll take one please!

Well the thing is its not an DVX with interchangeble lens. As i pionted out in other treads. Its actually uses a much smaller area of the CDD with more and smaller pixels on the CCD.

For me that wants as big ccd i can get this is important.

[Mitch_Ives]

it's just amazing to me to keep reading all these 'We're the F*CKING BEST, and they SUCK' posts. I understand it though. You've spent all this money, so you justify by comvincing yourself that you MUST have the best camera there is. Something new comes out, you kick yourself cause you JUST bought yours, and then you think, 'ah, they're A$$holes, my DVX rulez, and the XL2 people are all posers'.

I must have missed that, but let me help you understand a bit more in detail. Canon has a long way to go to make up for all the problems they've had in the past. That camera had a class action lawsuit formed around it. In addition, at one point there were half a dozen websites posting and tracking all the problems. I've edited problem footage from XL-1s that had no fix. Canon denied everything... every step of the way. Anyone who has watched it lose focus in FULL manual mode and not be able to get it back knows just one of the 14 some issues. And no, these were not all fixed in the XL-1s.

It used 270K CCDs and never had an image that came close to a PD-150 or a DVX-100. What it had was a removable lens. By the time you add the wide-angle lens and the better VF you had as much in an XL-1 as I had in a DSR-300... and there is no comparison between those cameras.

Do I hate the XL-1? No, I'm completely ambivalent about people owning it. I do not however allow one on any of my shoots for all the reasons those of us with lots of XL-1 experiences know firsthand. This is common in the industry, BTW. The XL-1 was the darling of film students (because it looks like and old Bolex), but everyone I know who had one has long since gotten rid of theirs.

Will the XL-2 be fantastic? Perhaps it will, but I'll waiting a long time for the dust to settle before I'd consider one.

[Barry_Green]

Will the XL-2 be fantastic? Perhaps it will, but I'll waiting a long time for the dust to settle before I'd consider one.

Mitch speaks the truth. I also watched Canon go from darling to despised with the XL1. Every month it was a new problem being announced -- and that hunting-focus-when-in-manual problem was just the worst. The diffraction issue with f/32 was also completely unacceptable, resulting in wildly soft shots outdoors. Then there was the banding issue, the burning viewfinder issue, the losing-audio-sync-in-post issue...

Lots of people don't like Canon cameras for some valid reasons. I am not necessarily one of them, because I never had an XL1, and I thought they did a good job with the GL2.

But hey, this is a new camera, a new opportunity, and I for one am quite intrigued by it. I see it as having some very definite feature differences from the DVX (like the ability to record 4 channels of audio, the 20x zoom, etc). I'd love to see the camera perform strongly in the market and succeed, which will only inspire Sony & JVC & Panasonic to raise the bar to compete.

But like Mitch, I will wait on the sidelines quite a while before seriously considering buying one. I saw too many people get furious with the original XL1.

[taubkin]

Man, the XL2 looks amazing. If it is all it seems to be, it will be a kickass camera and if it lives up to the press release, it has a big chance of being better than the DVX. But i think the difference will be so much less than 1000 dolars that I am very happy to have my DVX on it's way. And besides, Mitch said it all. It will be much better to wait for the dust to settle before spending that sort of dough. Now I seriously doubt that changing one cam for another could do anything for the final result of a video, unless the major difference in lens actually makes one cam more suitable than the other. I wouldn't take seriusly a comment as this: "you should have shot it with the canon, it would have been much better." So the difference is not very important to me...

[J.R. Hudson]

I have to admit I too missed the following:

"'We're the F*CKING BEST, and they SUCK' posts."

[taubkin]

Or when you wanted to add a script that converted the word xl1 to shit. Boy would that be fun... ;D

[J.R. Hudson]

:D

I had forgotten! That was funny though but seriously said in JEST. I almost purchased the Xl1s and am so stoked I did not (24p!). But I do stand corrected. But hey! That was like months ago!

:D

[taubkin]

I know, it all good... ;D

[Michael_Lieberman]

And for that inane comment about "needing to own the newest, best camera," I bought the DVX100 weeks after the DVX100a was announced, and for the $800 price difference at Promax.com, I decided that was a tad too much, and got the earlier model. It's not about the best or the newest, but the previous posts were about my and others opinions of Canon's previous cameras which, hate to say it, matter when they make the camera in question.

[Zoomforce]

I don't think you can really blame this site for Canon Bashing. As mentioned, I added this section to talk about the camera, and I had XL2user.com ready to go the day it came out. I am not a Panasonic Loyalist, or another company for that matter, I just want the best camera like everyone else does.

The reason that XL2user.com isn't up yet, is because after the first days I and many others started noticing some potentially major flaws, and I can tell you a vast majority of people have been disappointed. I didnt sleep that night it came out, and neither did some very "high up" people that I talked too in the wee hours of the morning, and to be dead honest every single one of them were not that thrilled. Even on Canon loyal websites you can see the rumble.

So.. I decided not to go through the 100+ hours of coding to bring XL2user.com online until the camera actually is released and I can hold it and test it myself. I am sure it will take just splendid video, but I don't want to go through the hassle to make something about a camera that just doesn't cut it. If it does kick ass.. I will be the first one to admit it, and even promote it.

So It's not really not Canon bashing here.. the majority of negative comments are valid from the released specs. We all know how Canon users bashed the DVX when it came out, but I think that was a little more envious than factual. The only thing they had to hold onto was the interchangeable lens thing, which in actuality 90% of users never do.

[Isaac_Brody]

"The only thing they had to hold onto was the interchangeable lens thing, which in actuality 90% of users never do."

Just a matter of time until CanonKameraKat makes an appearance. She was gung ho XL1s when the DVX came out and then disappeared after people embraced Panasonic.

[FilmJumper]

Canon
Kamera
Kate

Is alive and well over at IndieClub... LOL.

I usually just lurk here and read dozens of posts daily to learn more about my new (just purchased) DVX-100A. I will admit to being a little bummed finding out about the XL2 right after I bought my new DVX.

Having said that...

I agree with others... The more I think about it, the more I think I would rather wait to buy an XL2 anyway IF, of course, I was going to buy one...

WHY?

It's just too new for me... That's exactly why I never purchased the XL1 when it came out... Too new and too many problems kept creeping up. Now of course with the XL2, I would think MOST of the problems should be solved since it looks like an upgrade of the XL1s but who knows that for sure?

I bought my DVX100A to make a feature... With a possible (but doubtful) filmout which, at least we know right now can look better than "28 Days Later."

But I can't help but think that the XL2 will have some problems here and there... Nothing that would keep anyone from purchasing it but problems that will probably get fixed in another couple of years... Then again, maybe not... You never know with Canon...

I will be first in line to buy a new XL2 AFTER I find out that it will do what "I" want it to do. That may not be what others want it to do however. For now, the DVX does what I want it to do... LOL. And, I need a camera now...

If the XL2 was available right now but no real reviews, I would still have to go with the DVX based on everything I've read thus far. I have no doubt that the XL2 will eventually deliver... Maybe even right away... But since we're talking a minimum of $5K (it will take a while for that price to go down a bit) and at least 6 months (after it's available) to really know how well it stands up against the DVX, I went for the DVX now...

But in reality, I hope it delivers... Just like Barry and Jarred have said... No matter what camera you like best, it's in all our best interests for the XL2 to be a kick-ass camera... That way, the other companies will keep pushing the envelope... Maybe (hopefully) a little faster than we're used to.

[David Jimerson]

Canon
Kamera
Kate

Is alive and well over at IndieClub... LOL.


Yeah, that much is true . . .

[Mogambi]

OK, maybe I over-exagerated the 'We're the best, they suck posts'. I guess it came from some stuff I was reading on other sites as well, and just felt like a lot of people here were already passing judgement. But I did see all the 'we'll have to wait and do some tests' too.

Wasn't trying to stir up the proverbial '$hit', just noticing some tendencies towards bad-mouthing something that isn't even out, seemingly on the grounds that it competes with the camera that they already own.

That's all.

Tim

[Barry_Green]

I am the first to say, we should not be "brand bigots". Anyone who bashes a product just because of who made it, is certainly not being fair to the product or to themselves.

We have engaged in some "look at this feature, that's substandard, don't you think?" type of talk, which isn't so much aimed at whether it's Canon or not, but there's definitely some features that many of us wish would have been implemented differently. I don't think it's wrong to point that out, as long as the caveat is maintained: "We don't know nothin' till we see the video, shot by a pro".

When Sony announced the VX2000, a lot of people said (basically) "ho-hum". Same resolution, a little bit better low light, who cares, right? After we got it and started playing with it, the VX1000 was quickly obsolete. It's amazing how much better the picture is on a VX2000 vs. the old VX1000. And then there's hidden surprises that don't leap out of the spec sheet, that you don't really know until you use it for a while. Sony's 8-hour battery life was flat-out revolutionary! With the VX1000, you'd get maybe 40 minutes out of a battery. With the NP-F960's, all of a sudden you could run one battery all day long -- previously you couldn't even run a battery for the duration of even one tape!

So we must wait, and we must see what Canon has delivered to us. I think comparisons to the XL1 are quite moot, as the XL1 has long since been relegated to irrelevance. How does the XL2 compare to the DVX? We will not know until we compare it to the DVX.

But I really, really, really, really, really, really, really wish that 20x lens had included DVX-style focus and zoom rings. Those crappy motorized servos are completely useless to me. If it'd had zoom/focus rings at least as good as the DVX, along with a corresponding zoom/focus readout in the viewfinder, I could very easily see an XL2 fitting into my future (the 20x zoom reach, the native 16:9 without an optical adapter, etc... there's features the DVX doesn't have). I wouldn't replace the DVX, but the XL2 could have fit nicely in with the DVX. But without the zoom/focus readouts, I don't think I could stand using it. Yes, the manual lens is nice, but autofocus is an incredibly handy tool to have, when used properly (i.e., every pro SLR now has autofocus, for a reason). Don't use it mid-shot, but use it to assist focus and it's a good thing. But with the manual lens, you forever forego autofocus... so close, yet still not quite there... at least Canon could rectify that with a new lens in the future.

Rambling...

[Zoomforce]

Canon
Kamera
Kate

omg I cant believe you all remember her..( or should I say him )

[PaulK]

Having been involved in IT for over a decade, religious wars are not new to me. I never did get the Mac vs. PC or Linux vs. Windows rivalry. Each camp has its advantages and disadvantages. I never understood computer religious wars and I certainly don't care to partake in any camera religious wars. Life is too short. Buy and use what you feel like.

[PaulK]

Having said the above, I figure by the time I'm able to squeeze the same performance out of my DVX100A that Nancy Schreiber did out of her DVX100 there will probably be a XL4. ;D

[tuface]

well said.