Matching up DVX and XL2 on 2 camera shoot

[dvxStephen]

I'm on a 2 camera feature length project, SD, with principal photography starting in June. Unless Panasonic starts shipping the DVX's successor immediately after NAB, I'm going with one DVX and one XL2, to give me the best of both worlds. (And the flex of non-anamorphic work when I need to shoot 16:9, to allow better resolution than DVX's squeeze for other projects that need to be 16:9 with film-out as an option in post.)

We'll be shooting 24pa, and looking for a clean film look with minimum noise.

Any suggestions for menu choices to setup the two cameras to provide maximum color and gamma compatibility? I've got a good NTSC monitor that can display both cameras simultaneously, and a Macbeth color chart, and of course I'll compare their outputs to tweak up a visual match... But any leg up on just what needs to be tweaked to get them on the same page visually would be helpful.

Anyone already done this?

Thanks

[Kidster]

Unless you already own a DVX, then you are way better off getting a 2nd XL2. Trying to match footage from two different camera's is a lot of extra work, and since you stated you will be shooting XL2 in 16:9, not only will you have to try and match color between the DVX and XL2, but also you will have to adjust the aspect ratio of the DVX footage you shoot. That would be a BIG pain, and probably next to impossible to perfect.

Your feature is mucho important and I'm sure you have put your heart ans soul into it. So don't let spending and extra $1000 or so (price difference XL2-DVX) be an issue.

I don't think anyone has any idea of when the New Panasonic DVX or HDX will ship. But if there is anyway you can wait until it does arrive on the street, wait. I think that from everything that the HDX100 (or whatever it will be called) will be able to do, it's a no brainer that it will be the ultimate low budget camera for fillm makers! But if you can't wait and principal photography must start, then find another grand and get the other XL2.

[dvxStephen]

Thanks, Kidster, for your thoughtful comments.

I do already own a dvx. I guess I wasn't clear, but the feature length piece I've been contracted to do is 4:3. My reference to the 16:9 was another project that's coming up in August.

So I'm thinking, for the current project that's 4:3, adding the XL2 and dealing with the allignment hassles makes the most sense. That way I also have it for future 16:9 native projects where the DVX is less suitable, such as the August thing. And have the choice, on b roll work when we're working single camera, of the much better wide lens options of the DVX for close work and steadicam, and the longer reach of the XL2 when that's needed.

Adam Wilt mentioned in his recent review of the XL2 that it DOES have enough color controls to set up very close to a DVX100a in color and gamma. And in my case, each camera will be covering the reverse angle of the other, so a slightly different look is pretty normal anyway. We won't be training both cameras on the same subject, in other words, at the same time.

Has anyone been through something like this -- trying to match looks with these two cameras in 24p, that can offer any suggestions?

[dvxStephen]

On your question about waiting for the next DVX, I would love to, and plan to postpone buying the second camera till after NAB. However, principal photography starts about a week after NAB and runs for about two months, so if the new DVX isn't shipping in that time frame it'd probably be more cost effective to buy an XL2 than to rent and wait.

[Kidster]

one thing is for sure, the street price of the XL2 is coming down. I think the XL2 made it's debut in Sept 04 and retailed at $4999, so now 6 months later you can buy it from places like B&H, EVS etc for around $4299. I pruchsed mine from Buydig.com. Even though Buydig is not and "authorized" Canon dealer. They buy their XL2's from a USA distributor, so mine came with all the accessories USA warranty card etc. So, perhaps by April or May, you may be able to get one for ballpark $3700 - $3900.


As far as getting the DVX and XL2 to comparable looks..I suspect the only way to accurately do this, is take two "Quality" field monitors with you on the set and tweak each camera to the look you want. I have both the DVX & XL2, but have never tried a two camera shoot with both.

[Barry_Green]

Two monitors wouldn't be the best solution, you want to do it with one monitor that features two inputs so you can "A/B" them.

[dvxStephen]

Agreed.

I have a field NTSC monitor with a/b inputs, but I've also picked up an inexpensive but functional quad splitter (about $200) that allows me to easily display 2-4 cameras on a single monitor side by side. So that part's covered.

Our test shoot's this Friday. If it turns out no one has any advance suggestions for camera setup tweaks re this paring, I'd be happy to report back after Friday's shoot and report what we find. Let me know if that's of interst.

[Kidster]

Yes Stephen, I would be very interested to hear what sort of tweaking combination you come up with to get the two camera's together. Maybe even post a grab or two from each. Look forward to hearing the results!

[Jacques_Meov]

Let me play devil's advocate for a second...if you're using the XL2 as a b-roll camera, aren't you spending an inordinate amount of time trying to sync them? I mean, if you were inter-cutting them in the same set-up, yes, but as long as your colors match up, what am I missing?
Just that I did a similar thing in December. Had only my Xl1s and LX-100 (DV and Hi8). I used the XL1s as principle, and relegated the LX-100 to b-camera and background. After getting both tapes into Premiere Pro and AE, was able to make a nearly seemless (spelling CORRECT) DVD. Seemless as in in seemed like they were alike; because the audience was not focusing on "big action" or CUs on the Hi8 work.
It worked for me....any downside on doing this?

[dvxStephen]

I guess I wasn't clear. When shooting principal photography, it's a two camera shoot; one camera on our lead, and one camera on the other talent in a reverse angle. We'll attempt to match time code using the free run trick described in Barry's book, and if that doesn't test out, might use a clapper to sync up the XL2 and the DVX, just to simplify things in post.

When doing b roll, we'll have the option of using either camera. When we need a long lens, the XL is king, as has been said on these boards so well. Otherwise, and particularly when doing steadicam work or wide stuff, the DVX has the edge, and we'll go with it.

Does this answer your question, Jacques?

[Jacques_Meov]

Yes...sorry about the confusion, didn't make the rev ang connection. D'oh! Or better yet, duh...
One thing though...ever watch Happy Days, the first season? I remember reaeding somewhere about how they did what you're trying to do with unmatched cams.

[dvxStephen]

Just read in the XL2 manual that it doesn't have free run in 24p mode. Uurg. Anyone know if it'll be possible to have the XL2 and DVX cameras' timecode match; best way to approach that?

[Barry_Green]

Slate...

[translumination]

Funny you should ask the question. I used my calibrated JVC monitor to do an A/B of my dvx and a friends XL2 today. You can closely match the colors of each camera but the biggest pain in the ass is that the XL2 doesnt give you numbers for their scene file settings god damm it! but heres my recipe anyway:

dvx100A
detail -3
v detail 0
chroma 0
phase 0
color temp 0
master pedestal -6
iris level 0
cine like gamma
knee auto
matrix norm 1


XL2
cine gamma
knee middle
black middle
matrix cine
gain and phase middle
RGB gain middle
v detail norm
coring middle

I'm shooting with both tomorrow so I will post the results after I review them.

Note: their are so many setting on both camera's that you need a checklist to go through before you shoot unless you want to cry when you get home with ruined footage. My friend who is unfamiliar with his new cam had gain turned all the way up so initially we couldnt figure out why the image was so grainy. The week before he had his shutter on less than 1/50 and got too much motion blur.

Good luck

[Isaac_Brody]

No numbers on scene file settings?? ???

Whose brilliant idea was that at Canon? (foot in mouth smiley face.)

[translumination]

I shot outdoors all day yesterday with anamorphic dvx100a and xl2 with the above settings. They match beautifully. You cant tell the difference when viewed back on a monitor.

XL2 has more zoom than you would ever need for most indie stuff. The wide on the dvx is more useful but alittle more zoom would be useful. There is an exposure metre that tells you what is "correct" on the xl2 so you can underexpose as much as you need. That is brilliant. The OIS is fantastic you can get extremely smooth handheld work.

I would be happy to use either camera for an indie project. I dont think the dvx has a more "filmic" look. YOu just need to tweak them to get the best image.

Good luck.