DAT or DVX?

[Mike_Donis]

I'm doing another short this summer, and was wondering about audio...
Would there be a quality difference between the audio recorded straight into the DVX compared to that recorded on DAT?
The producer is opting for DAT, and it sounds like an excellent idea if there's any quality difference at all. But as far as I know, it's all digital audio, and the only difference would come from the mic.

Also, a separate audio crew, detached from the camera operators, should make things run smoother, no?

I'm just wondering if it's the best plan of action, or if the only thing you'd get out of a DAT would be the need to synch in post.

[oleg]

the audio difference come not only from the mike but from the all chain as well (preamp,mixer, cables and of course your sound crew that much importent then the mike 0
there is no big difference in audio between dat and camera but it much easyer to work as separate team
if you have the money go for double system , its yeasy to every one , the sound will deal only with their problems and the camera with their own

if you are going to work with tc dat , you can feed (wierless) one of the audio channels on the camera with tc and then your syncronizesion on nle will be complitly automaticly ( for safety do a regular clap, shit happens and wierless go mad)
the second chanel can pick up ambience and be good if someone forget to smack the bord
the only minus that if you wont to see dailis you have tosyncronize
of course if you have time and working in stability additional feed from the mixer to camera cant be harm :-)
few months ago i did presisly the same job with 2 dvx
the tc was send to bouth cameras and 2 aditional ambiant tracks where recorded with 2 mikes on camera ( it was full hannd held , doco style moovie) later the sound was syncronized on nle

[Barry_Green]

Excellent post, Oleg!

Yes, while the DVX has the best audio of any prosumer camera, obviously if you have the budget to get professional dedicated audio equipment, it can provide better results. Whether the quality difference is enough to justify the equipment rental and post-sync'ing is up to the guy writing the checks...

Having audio un-chained from the camera definitely makes it easier to move the camera and to monitor the audio, so if you're having a full-on professional audio mixer watching the deck and the levels and the mix, it will be easier for them to do it if unchained to the camera.

For most DV work, I'll go on record and say that it's probably overkill. But if you want the ultimate quality, it is the ultimate way to do it: professional gear combined with at least two professional sound crew: the mixer and the boom op. The obvious caveat is, if you're going to the trouble to hire the gear, but then you put inexperienced people in charge of it, then obviously that will be a big waste: your audio's only as good as your people running the equipment.

[Mike_Donis]

your audio's only as good as your people running the equipment.

Right on!

Thanks guys, looks like DAT's the best way to go!

(yes, that was a play on words, or, well, sounds....:P!)

[Zoomforce]

Both is my vote... most productions I work on the sound crew record thier own Dat (more MINIDISC nowadays) and also loop the output to the camera as well. They are both 48k, and having audio locked to the video makes everyone's life easier. Im not Audio expert but I cant tell an audible difference in sound quality.

[Terry_Lasater]

Thanks for the excellent posts on this thread, Big-O, BG, & J-Dogg.

Which is preferable as far as professional reliability, etc. DAT or MiniDisc? Do both have XLR connections?

What are some good models of each flavor?

[araujofh]

DAT is far better than than CD or mini-Disc.
I wouldn't advise anyone to use mini-disc. If you have the budget, than just use a DAT recorder.

As for the XLR inputs, DAT recorders do have them, but for mini-disc you will need an adapter.

All the best

Fidel.

[oleg]

dat is formt of recording 12|32 or 16 bit ,44.1,48 khz ,
you have consumer dats that dont have good pramps at all , you have cd recorder inside leptops that can record better sound sif the input card in the computer is sopirior to dat (of cours it can record until 24-192)
the midisks are are compressing the wave and you do loose some of the information , but sometimes the hhb midisk with good press will sounding better the consummer dat

[Terry_Lasater]

Thanks!

Any links to some good quality DAT recorders with XLR inputs?

[oleg]

why , this format is going to day in few years , for low cost,same quality
(no tc but iam sure that you are not looking for 4000$ tc fostex that is the last tc field recorder which made and probably wouldnt until the end of this year)
i will sugest nomad jb -3 hd recorder that with god preamp in front will give you th same
mixpre or any other mixer with 300$ nomad (no mikes pre)is more then enouth for dual system recording (40g inside its about 60h of recording ), of course you can make 4 channel recording if your mixer have individual channel outs
so 2 for camera and 2 for nomad ( that what i do in some lo budgets when my dat is not involved)
no tc but for 300$ its ok , another benefit is that i put my musik librery and just sailing between the shotes

[Zoomforce]

yes, minidisc does use compression but the Atrac 4 is pretty good... but I think minidisk is goina die out one of these days, probally around the time Dat does.

There are some pretty good solid state recorders coming out to that record to Compact Flash etc uncompressed

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=1582&CatID=19&SubCatID=180

[Terry_Lasater]

Thanks for the advice, Oleg.

Jarred, thanks for the link.

Yeah, it looks like the solid state will be a better solution. Any idea when it will be available?

[oleg]

the marantz is probably nice macnine but it tie to hold bunch of memory or dump the data every time to 2 media , the flesh no dout is better solution then hd (in cold veder is the only solution) but still the media is very expenciv , about 200$ -250 per giga
if i was considering to go for something similar the sd-722 (2 months from now) looks better solution becouse the int hd
or even 744 even for some one with budget

[ullanta]

Just a note to add to the discussion:

The in-camera audio of the DVX is much better if you use a good-quality external mic preamp. Results with a setup like that are competitive with DAT or HD recorders for most things. However, the in-camera preamps are noticeably worse.... so if anyone does go with the camera audio, get some nice preamps (I'd recommend a Presonus BlueTube as a portable, flexible, fairly low-cost solution...)

[Barry_S]

Interesting suggestion, Barry. Do you dial in any tube warmth when recording to the DVX? I'm wondering if adding a bit of tube distortion might take a bit of the edge off dialogue recordings.

[ullanta]

I haven't actually tried this setup for dialog... primarily for music. And I'm still experimenting with the interactions between different mics, recorders, and tube drive settings, but: I find that in general, the BlueTube "Drive" set between 9 and 11 o'clock does tend to mellow things pretty nicely. Sounds great for strings, which should carry over to the human voice...

[oleg]

where do you find 18 v in the field if i might ask ( over the shoulder)
some things made for studio ,
maybe ill sugest that if you find old nagra with working pres , it might be even lighter :-)

[mrbimmer]

If you have a Professional MD recorder that does not do timecode..would you use it? *How would you sync the audio to video in post without tons of wasted time? I own the HHB Professional Minidisc Recorder and I have used it for V.O's for the most part. It is awesome and has amazing sound quality. I want to use it for video...should I?

[mrbimmer]

What happens when you are filming in 24pa. Does the audio get off sync or anything? If I do record on my MD recorder than the audio/video should be in sync even though I am filming in 24pa..? ??? ??? ???

[oleg]

2 METHODS , THE OLDEST AND STILL WORKING IN MAGOR FILM HISTORY , YOU TAKE A KID GIVE HIM APARTUNITY TO WORK ON FILM AND HE SYNCRONIZE IT FOR YOU (AND THEY ARE FAST:-))
the second method , i dont remember , o i do , there where things which were developed for non tc nagras , when you start the run the tc generator put few seconds of tc in the start of the take and then switch to audio input , the tc generator out can go to tc clapper or dvx audio input
when you run the audio from the dut , you split the tc|audio channel and fidding the ext tc of nle which run gem synk , then you digitize the video with tc on audio ,the okus pokus every thing in synk
but the first method is much easier :-)

[oleg]

What happens when you are filming in 24pa. *Does the audio get off sync or anything? *If I do record on my MD recorder than the audio/video should be in sync even though I am filming in 24pa..? ??? ??? ???
whats the different the camera runs the same (23.98 frame - 29,97 tc )
when you shoot true 24, the things are little bit different (but its on hd cams not dvx)
thanks god i am in pal lend , we keep it symple :-)

[mrbimmer]

Does anyone know anything about the HHB Pro Minidisc recorder?

[Madjef]

As I professional sound engineer for many years, I'm, excited with
the clean audio that I get with the ME66 & DVX. *Proper booming
and noise control makes for excellent results, I don't disagree
that a mic pre as a front end would be great, I think its more necessary
going to dat as oppsed to the DVX.

peace

Madjef

[scottchapin]

I use an FMR-RNP preamp with excellent results. It is just under $500 and is really clean. I strap it to a monitor mounting kit and away I go! Oh....you need 110 :'(

[subsunk]

Hi there,
the new sony HiMD will change things around a bit.
We are due to get them next month down here.
1Gb storage with full wav file recording and direct digital uplink to PC.

I currently use MD when i need an off camera mic or two.
If you get a mic with a reasonable long HQ record mode (mine does dual time mono at high quality) you can set the dvx to free run timecode and then start it off at the same time as starting the MD recording. Let the MD record until end of disk.
It is then a fairly easy job to match the timecode on the tape with time on the audio track.

I use a synch box I built. I hold it in front of the camera when shooting and press the button that triggers a peizo buzzer and a bright LED easy to see and hear even when out of focus. Any local mics also pick up the sound.
Its a fairly usefull gismo when doing on the run eng.
I setup my interviewer with a MD recording from a lav and a hand mic then free run the timecode as above and blip the syncher every so often.

I only bother to synch up the MD audio for the shots i use so as to save time.

cheaper than stereo wireless mics.

steve
australia
home of me.