Boom Poles USELESS?

[Ptpiz]

My friend in college said that boom poles are useless. He says that his professors even say this. Is this true? Is the sound the same if you have a boom pole overhead of a conversation and if you have the same mic mounted to the camera? Can anyone record these two situations to compare? I am getting the AT897 but I am now debating whether I should get a Boom Pole?!?!

[Barry_Green]

Every behind-the-scenes shot you ever see of any sort of professional production always has some guy holding the mic on a boom pole. It's not just for show... that's how good audio is done.

A mic mounted on the camera is nearly useless. For good quality audio you want to get the mic as close as possible to the source of the sound (usually your actor's mouth). The way that's done, especially when people tend to move around, is to mount the mic on a boom pole and have a trained and dedicated boom-op professional who monitors the scene and keeps the mic exactly where it needs to be.

If you're doing news/ENG, you can go with a handheld mic (which still employs the same concept: get the mic as close to the source as possible). For dramatic/narrative work, mic on a boom pole is how it's done.

[mrbimmer]

Your friend obviously along with his professors have no idea what they are talking about. What is he studying?...if it is film that sucks because he is in the wrong school learning the wrong stuff.

No boom pole and your audio sounds like shit. Going back in post and doing ADR to get the perfect sound compliments the sound you got with your shotgun on the boom very nicely. 90% of the movies you see are ADR. But your college friend probably doesn't know what that is.

If you want professional sound get a nice shotgun on the end of a long pole with a nice blimp windscreen...your set...oh yeah and a good boom op...then in post do some ADR with the same mic.

[Zoomforce]

even if you use a shotgun and try to hold it in your hounds it will sound like a spaceship.. you absolutely need a boompole as if you dont use one any movement, even cable movement, will be picked up by good mics. Trust me, I tried :)

[Beat Takeshi]

You should pick up that book "Producing great audio for digital video" By Rose.
I just got it and it has an incredible amount of info on sound. Its a must have if you are doing your own productions me thinks.

[Terry_Lasater]

me agrees...

[Bischofftep]

Hello, all!

I had an Audio-Technica (AT) 897 mounted on the DVX, and an AT 835b in a homebuilt boom and shockmount both filming the same scene.

Once I get home tonight I will post samples of the two side by side so you can compare for yourself. Some notes for now:
* Shotgun mics must be in some kind of isolation mount or you will hear every bit of movement noise whoever's holding them makes.
* Closer is better: a shotgun isn't a magnifying glass... it's blinders.
* ADR is a tricky subject, but done right is priceless (though IMO 90% is a bit of an exaggeration).

Get a boom!

[grifpo]

what does ADR stand for?

[Neil Rowe]

:additional dialog recording

[mrbimmer]

I have a bunch of friends in the business...working on features...For some feature films...80-90% of an individual films audio is ADR....I was surprised too.

[Neil Rowe]

..i would concur. you should always try to get the best scource audio you can, but unless your on a closed and soundproofed set, most of it needs to be ADR to be clean and crisp. unless your environment is somehow very closed off, or stable and unchanging in its sound.

[Ptpiz]

Those sound comparisons would be great. Also, do you recommend a specific shock mount? Also, what size pole is necessary 6 ft vs. 8 ft ???

[Bischofftep]

what does ADR stand for?

"Old School" references peg it as "Automatic Dialog Replacement" aka "Looping."

The idea is that you take a video/audio clip and play it in a loop over and over and over again while a second device is in "record" mode. The actor then does their best to synch themselves with the original dialog as they hear it over their headphones and see themselves acting the scene out. It's done over and over in conjunction with the loop because doing this is a LOT harder than it sounds!

You'd then pick the best of the takes and edit it in to replace the old dialog. This, also, is not as easy as it sounds but done right gives you crisp, clear dialog no matter what the original sounded like.

[mrbimmer]

Buy a twelve foot carbon fiber pole...they are light and if you need to do a semi-wide shot you have the length to do so...I just bought a Gitzo from Rush it cost about $230 I think. Got it today actually...:)

[Ptpiz]

Well, I don't have money like you do...you have to remember from the other thread... MY BOSS IS RIPPING ME OFF! I can only spend $400 in total for the mic, pole, and shock mount!

[Ptpiz]

Also, does the AT897 coem with a windscreen (at least a crappy one) or do I have to buy one of those too? Or maybe.... is there a windscreen/shockmount combo device?

[mrbimmer]

Woah..dude..don't spend your money now...save save save...that way you can buy stuff that you can use forever and you won't be mad at yourself for spending money to early..

If you don't have money for a car and your saving for a car-your goal is a car....you don't buy a bike cause you have the money for a bike...you keep saving so you can buy the car...Don't start spending now...save save save!!
hmm I should copyright that.. ;D

[Ptpiz]

Well, I already have the car.... and besides, the mic is being payed for by my partner... but he will spend a max of about $400. So, I am gonna get the mic, the sennheiser shock mount, and the gizto 8 ft aluminum pole. But, will I have to buy a windscreen? Or does the AT897 come with a little one that helps?

[Barry_Green]

You could still get something decent for that. An AT835 is about $239 at MarkerTek, and they make some aluminum boom poles for about $60 or so, and you can get an AT shock mount for about $50 I think...

Not top-of-the-line gear, but you can do great work with it.

[Mike_Donis]

It is the artist, not the brush...

A well placed, but lower end mic will usually get better results than a poorly placed, top of the line mic. It'll mostly depend on what you do with it :D

[Ptpiz]

Well, I am getting the AT 897 for sure, maybe I will go for a cheaper boom pole instead of the gitzo and save money for a windscreen

[David Jimerson]

It is the artist, not the brush...


Yeah, but some brushes really do suck.

[Barry_Green]

HAH! :)

Yes, that is true. I've told the story many times, but one of Rick Parks' most impressive artworks that I ever saw was a simple portrait he did ON AN ETCH-A-SKETCH. A real artist can make anything sing... but they also appreciate the best tools too. Storaro with an old Super 8 camera would smoke any of us with our DVX's... but how often did he shoot with Super 8? He chose top-of-the-line 35mm gear every time...

[David Jimerson]

Wasn't it more impressive in your mind BECAUSE it was on an Etch-A-Sketch and you know how hard it must have been?

[Mike_Donis]

Wasn't it more impressive in your mind BECAUSE it was on an Etch-A-Sketch and you know how hard it must have been?


Good call...I'd agree!

But to be fair, and I'm kinda going back on the whole artist/brush thing, we DO all want the best possible quality :D

But the fact remains, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit! You still gotta use your stuff to its potential...

[Barry_Green]

Yes, it was definitely more impressive because it was on an etch-a-sketch. However, it was a work of art in its own right, far superior to anything I could do with pen & paper, or brush & canvas.

You need good tools, yes. But that's only like 10% of the equation. An important 10%, but not what your sole focus should be on. Give a bad tennis player a $6,000 racket, and his game won't improve an inch. Give Agassi a badminton racket and he'll still whip me. But, Agassi would never use a badminton racket -- being the pro that he is, he'd use the $6,000 racket and he'd get the most from it.

[mrbimmer]

But seriously...it is going to suck when you are in the field holding a 10 pound aluminum boom pole that saved you 100 bucks before you start shooting....would you not want a carbon fiber pole that allowed you to shoot longer...come on guys seriously..I know it is not the tools - but you don't buy a plastic hammer now do you?

[David Jimerson]

Yes, it was definitely more impressive because it was on an etch-a-sketch. *However, it was a work of art in its own right, far superior to anything I could do with pen & paper, or brush & canvas.

You need good tools, yes. *But that's only like 10% of the equation. *An important 10%, but not what your sole focus should be on. *Give a bad tennis player a $6,000 racket, and his game won't improve an inch. *Give Agassi a badminton racket and he'll still whip me. *But, Agassi would never use a badminton racket -- being the pro that he is, he'd use the $6,000 racket and he'd get the most from it.

BiZARRE. I wrote -- and deleted -- a post about my friend who could whip me at tennis every time with a badminton racquet, but that doesn't mean he'd use one. WEIRD.

[oleg]

SOME PEOPLE LERN IN HARD WAY AND SWEAT ( ALLOT OF SWEAT):-)

[Barry_Green]

Hey Kyle,

Of course carbon fiber is the preferred pole among professionals. But 10 pounds? Come on... ;)

I've got an 8' aluminum pole here, it weighs maybe a pound. It's perfectly usable, and while a carbon fiber pole would be more comfortable at the end of a 12-hour shoot day, it's not like a night-and-day difference. If all the guy can afford is a $60 aluminum pole, it's a totally reasonable choice, and sure a lot better than a painter's pole...

[Policar]

Don't feel bad for him for having to use an aluminum boom pole--I'm using a dremeled piece of pvc pipe.

[oleg]

that every one here will feel good , a friend of mine that doing off bollyvood indy films in India using long bambook stick for that perpes , he carry 3 different lengh of sticks for different situations.

[Guest]

Boom poles are far from useless. What if you want to be on the long end of your zoom lens and your subject is 25 feet away? Your camera mic is also going to be 25' away. A boom mic is as close as your framing allows, maybe 6" or less.
What if your subject refers to something nearby and you pan your camera to get a shot of it? Your camera mic turns away too. A boom mic can stay over the subject as he/she continues to talk.

You can check out my credits at http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0128644/

[Terry_Lasater]

Anyone who can boom a mic over sea monkeys has my confidence. ;) ;D

[mrbimmer]

Bryan-
You held a boom for the Power Rangers rock on man!!! I used to watch that show all the time LOL!!! ;D

[Barry_Green]

Hey Bryan, welcome to the forum!

And that should settle the boom question once and for all...

[Aureliano]

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. *I used to be a boom man (among many other things), and for most things it's absolutely essential. *Sometimes you have to use a wireless lav for dialogue, but in general you want to avoid those because they're a little too chesty and they pick up clothes rustling. *Even with the best shotgun, you want to be as close as you can be with the mic tip right on axis with the actors' mouths, and the boom pole also lets you pivot or sweep the mic between actors during the scene.

For news gathering/doc stuff: *here's an example for ya. *I was working for Hard Copy years ago, covering Fantasy Fest in Key West. *We came upon a wedding happening on the dock just about at sunset. *There was a crowd between us and the bride and groom. *The shooter got up on a chair or something and zoomed in. *I had a very, very long boom pole, and was able to reach right over the crowd and get the vows.

Ask your friend to ask his professor how he'd get that sound without a boom pole. *Sorry, no time to go over and wire them--they're in the middle of the ceremony already.

Either your friend seriously misunderstood his prof, or his prof's a moron.

A.

[taubkin]

Or it was a Yoga class...

[Mike_Donis]

Ahh, I must say I was a Power Rangers lover myself ;D

[Terry_Lasater]

OK, Power Ranger lovers... did any of you ever watch the series called "Power Rangers: Light Speed Rescue"?

Do you remember the Blue Power Ranger named "Chad"? Well, his real name is Michael Chaturantabut (goes by Mike Chat) and he is the founder of XMA (Xtreme Martial Arts).

There was a Discovery Channel documentary on Martial Arts which originally aired last November which featured him and one of his students... http://media.whatcounts.com/century/xma/gallery/email.html#

There is also a commercial for Degree deodorant featuring him in sort of an old Kung-Fu movie spoof fashion.

I work directing and editing his DVD-based curriculum. In fact, I'll be flying to Orlando, FL at the end of June to shoot behind the scenes stuff for a documentary on XMA.

[Mike_Donis]

I can't say I watched Light Speed Rescue, not knowing what it is :P

I stopped watching Power Rangers after they started changing up the cast and megazords and the like...

But regardless, that's awesome Terry! Good luck with the shoot in Florida!

[mrbimmer]

I think I may have watched Light Speed Rescue but I don't really remember. I haven't seen that show in like 10 years.

[Barry_Green]

The original Power Rangers TV show, with the original DinoZords and -- what was the bad gal's name, Rita? -- that was some good TV. But there's something wrong with the IMDB rankings when "Power Rangers Turbo" is only #17 on the "Bottom 100" list. People are trying to say that there are 16 movies in the world that are worse than that? :o

[J.R. Hudson]

One of his professors said this to your friend? Professor of what? of 'Not knowing WTF he is talking about' 101?

Sorry, I just discovered this thread; there is not much to sya except, yes, that is asinine.

[sumaraba]

Somebody created their own boompole (he also used the AT897). You can see it at this link (sorry for linking to another forum, but I thought this information would help out):

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=d93171c190a35afe819120b85c58fc0a& threadid=22263



The comments were both positive and negative, but some other guy that also created the homemade pole had this to say in response to the negative:



"First let me comment on this common misconception about "home depot" fiberglass poles and their weight.

More than once I've seen people say : "Too heavy for serious use."

The recommended 15 foot home depot fiberglass pole is OUNCES LIGHTER THAN THE EQUIVALENT LENGTH GIZMO "pro" boom poles.

Rather than speculate or give misleading prejudiced information, I looked at the actual specifications of the Gizmo poles at B&H, then weighed my Home Depot pole on a digital scale. Mine's lighter.

****

We shot a feature this spring using this pole and an ME66, and got ZERO handling noise.

Tape down your cables and use some common sense. If cables are threaded iinternally then you have no control over any internal cable rubbing, and this could very well be much harder to control noise then external cables.

****

You can grip this pole anywhere and get from 1 foot to 15 foot usable length. To change the angle of the mike- rotate the pole in your hand-- it will go 360 degrees. In four months of shooting, there wasn't a single mike position we couldn't get by telling the boom operator to move his feet or hands.

****

I like the new contribution of the threaded coupling-- thanks!

****

The pole is not totally laser beam rigid-straight at fully extended length of 15 feet, but certainly close enough and not an issue as this rarely came up. Shorter extensions were just fine, as would be the full extended length.

I think often people (but not all) poo poo a cheaper DIY alternative without really knowing the facts or having used the alternative, or used the wrong alternative. It's a prevalent prejudice and belief that the more you spend, the better your project/equipment will be. This is the biggest myth of all.

It's using your head with whatever you've got that's always been most important, equipment comes next and is always secondary to creativity. The people with real experience and the real money know this as well.

My pictures at:
http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/pole.html"



There's actually some pretty cool projects at his site. In fact, I have the materials to create this pole (along with the AT897) so I'll probably give it a try and test it all out this weekend. :)

[Barry_S]

POSTED BY BRYAN CAHILL * * * * * *
* * * *

* * * * * * * * * * * *Thanks for the welcome. *I was also a Putty Patroler one day when we were short a stuntman and did flips off of a mini trampoline!
Back to the subject of boom poles: *I own 2 carbon fiber and two aluminum poles. *If I'm working in really heavy winds or in very harsh conditions, ie. water, mud, etc... I will use an aluminum pole. *It is heavier but is stronger and cheaper. *Heavy winds can actually bend a carbon fiber pole to the point of breaking. *
I believe Wilcox Sound still sells a long aluminum pole called a robo pole for about half the price of a carbon fiber equivilant. *The company owner, Blake Wilcox, was the Sound mixer on Beverly Hills 90210. *I'm not endorsing the co. but do own a robo pole that was given to me and find it serviceable.
*
You can also make a boom pole out of the poles used for cleaning pools. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[Todd_Mattson]

As a cameraman for BTS (behind the scenes) documentaries, I assure you that boom poles are NOT useless. On the most recent production I was shooting for, I had a soundman with me, and we went wireless between us, so that we could seperate and he could get as close to a shot as possible, and I'd shoot from a distance, allowing natural conversation to continue. Sometimes I'd get a production feed from the Sound Mixer, especially for during takes. The ONLY time I ever used an on camera shotgun was when space was way too entirely on a premium, and the only way to get any EPK/BTS shots was to only have me in there, one-man banding it, sans soundman.

[MARIOSCICLUNA]

It's a silly point!!! your friend must misunderstood / misinterpreted something. not using a boom pole is like using a digital zoom in a consumer model camera.you'll get crap!
Right now I'm working on a 16 episodes of 45 minute drama being aired on National Tv and I'm doing field audio for it. We never dreamt of not using a boom (except in constrained locations-for example inside a car) The main secret is "the closest you can get to your sound source - the better". Mounting a gun mike on board your camera will produce a very close ratio between ambience and dialogue which you can never adjust in post. Positioning your mike as close as possible to your talent will produce a high ratio of dialogue compared to ambience. Another good point to bear in mind when booming is to point the mike to the opposite direction from where unwanted noise is being emmited/reflected. i.e boom actors from overhead with mike pointing downwards to the silent floor. you'll be offmike from echoes of the same dialogue reflected by the ceiling, especially when you're indoors in a high ceiling room. the third good point is -Always record a minute or two of ambience (in perfect silence). This will be very helpful in post. Especially when you have dialogue between 2 or more actors. you can lay a bed of ambience underneath your dialogue to diminish the changes in sound when you cut from one actor to the other.

[PDX_DVX]

Or, maybe you could save some money up and add it to the 400 bucks, and get the stuff you really want. Another solution to the heavy boom pole is to just build up more upper body strength. The chicks will dig it, and you'll be able to hold that boom pole for a long time.

[xort]

"My friend in college said that boom poles are useless. He says that his professors even say this"

If a professor said this then he is the useless item in the production world. I'd love to know what university he teaches at. Is he at U Colorado with Ward, Mr. Plagarism, Churchill?
This prof should be outed, lots of kids (parents) are paying top dollar to be fed BS.

[GenJerDan]

Where you shootin'?

On a sound stage, you won't need a boom if you can place multiple mics all over the place.

But, generally, we're not the folks who record 24-channel sound, so...yeah a boom is a good thing to have. ;)

Dan

[Dave_Fisk]

My friend in college said that boom poles are useless. He says that his professors even say this. Is this true?


Your friend is talking out his @$$. If his profs are teaching a class related to cinema, they should not be teaching, because that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Saying a boompole is useless is like saying the steering wheel in your car is useless.



By the way....ADR stands for Automatic Dialogue Replacement. Putting Additional Dialogue Recording on your final will be marked as incorrect.

-Dave

[xort]

"By the way....ADR stands for Automatic Dialogue Replacement. Putting Additional Dialogue Recording on your final will be marked as incorrect."

Not by his moronic prof...

[wabbit]

More importantly, this thread was started back in June of 04. I think he might be graduated by now. :)

[Erik Olson]

Dave Fisk gets the prize - it is indeed Automatic (ed) Dialogue Replacement. Here are some pro's to back up our assertion.

Maybe this professor needs to do a little more and teach a little less - or at least teach the right terminology.

http://www.filmsound.org/terminology/adr.htm#adr

http://www.smpte.org/membership/warner.cfm

http://www.postproducer.com/Article/Alpha/13/xt/dialogue.htm
:engel017:

[Dave_Fisk]

"By the way....ADR stands for Automatic Dialogue Replacement. Putting Additional Dialogue Recording on your final will be marked as incorrect."

Not by his moronic prof...


This could be very true. I remember on my final in college I put "Additional Dialogue Recording", and it was marked incorrect, so that is something I'll never forget.