Everything I know about mics so far.

[MattinSTL]

Many of you don't need this information, so please feel free to read or ignore this... but I've come a long way with the audio end of my productions in the last 2 years... here's what I know so far:

When you want quality audio, the proximity of the mic to the source is almost more important then the outright quality of the mic. That said don't think a crappy mic will beat a good mic just 'cause it's a foot closer... but the lesson is: The closer the better.

A decent shockmount and adequate wind protection are crucial for satisfactory results with any camera mounted, or boomed mic... so if you don't have the cash for everything you need either wait till you do or get a cheaper mic.

Shotgun mics are not the do all mic for video that most newbies think they are. There are times when a much cheaper hypercardioid will get a better result then a shotgun at twice the price.

99% of dialog you hear in anything is mono... don't get bogged down in the pursuit of stereo dialog. Most newbies think they should try to do everything in stereo.

Here's my mic experience:

When I used a trv17... I started out with an ATR55. I liked it enough that I eventually got 2. Remember that stupid stereo thing? The ATR55 is worth what it costs and NO more... it's a $50 mic.

Eventually I yearned for better sound, so I got a Beachtek and an me66... along with a wired lav and a cheap Azden wireless lav system. The Radio Shack wired lav worked okay, but didn't sound particularly good... still fine for a "NO budget" budget. The hundred dollar Azden wireless was total trash... nothing but headaches... The me66 was a tough choice for me at that time... it was nearly half the cost of my camera... but it was supposed to be the best mic in that price-range...

I added a trv900 to my arsenal... since my audio was then outperforming my video... not much changed with my sound package.

Finally I got a DVX... it only took about a week to realize that the dvx doesn't really like the me66. Other then the typical WAY HOT output of the me66 I don't know what the deal is, but if you haven't bought an me66 yet... and you own a dvx... DON'T. I made the me66 work for a while, but I was constantly frustrated by it.

I finally replaced the me66 with an AT4073a... which is EASILY the best bang for the buck shotgun mic available. At $530 for the AT... vs. $450 for the me66... the '66 loses by a judgement of no-contest. The AT sounds so much more natural and it eliminates the too-easy overloading and "expanded" anamolies betweent the me66 and dvx. (Quiet too quiet... loud too loud... impossible to ride the levels...)

Over the next year I bought and sold a TON of mics:

The Oktava mk012 is a bargain that gets great results indoors with hyper cap... must be shockmounted WELL and windprotected. K-Tek and Rycote BBG recommended (for outdoor use BBG and Jammer works great). The best place to buy this mic is at the Sound Room 'cause you can get it with the hyper cap only... and that's all you really need. A Guitar Center unit will be $99-$125 but you'll still need the hyper from the Sound Room and it will cost you an extra $74 shipped... so why not get a hand-picked "creme of the crop" mic with the cap you need for the same price anyway?

The Rode nt3 is a nice VO mic which can be used handheld but it's pretty bad for handling noise. Overall it's a nice mic that can be battery powered or phatom powered. I liked it. It's warmer then an Oktava and good for on-location VO work.

The Rode NTK, NT1000, NT2000... I've had all these mics and I like the sound of the NTK the best... but close behind that is the NT1000. Close enough that I sold the NTK and it's pesky tube PS. I use 1 or 2 NT1000s a lot for controlled room VO and for special ambience recordings. The NT2000 was a big dissappointment. I anticipated that mic SO much for the multiple patterns... but on NO setting does it sound as good as the "one trick" NT1000. So I returned it.

The Beyerdynamic M58 is a nice ENG type mic, but the AKG D230 has a much warmer and more natural sound then the M58... so I got one. The M58 doesn't hear anything farther then 6" from the mic... unless it's really loud... which sometimes sucks and sometimes it's a valuable feature.

The Shure SM86 is totally clear and crisp, but sounds like a stage mic... I wrongly assumed I could get the isolation of the M58 with better sound quality. You have to EAT the Shure to get really good sound with it. That thing falls off so fast that you can't move it beyond 3" from your mouth... also the clinical sound is BORING... it adds nothing to your voice.

At some point I got a little Sony 908 for my mzr37... don't bother... it's no better then a cheap camcorder's mic. I instantly returned it.

Needing a wireless and having pitched the Azden years earlier... I got a used Lecto... the M150 it comes with is decent... but I got a Tram kit and I like that better. It's very open sounding and mixes with the AT4073a well. Later I got a Sennheiser MKE2 and I like that even better... it's warm and more natural sounding. Even the M150 is acceptable though.

I later got another Lectro with a plug-on... I use that for ENG work, but you need to realize that any wireless short of a Zaxcom will rip the soul out of most mics... Wireless gets the job done... but it's rarely the preferred method for really critical work. Popping a really good shotgun onto a wireless guts the mic a bit... so I avoid it.

At this point I'm waiting on an upgrade to the AT4073a... so I won't comment on that until I feel justified.

The other mics in the higher-end shotgun class worth considering are the Sankens... until you hear it for yourself you can't believe how directional they are! They are very useful tools but I've yet to own one... I want to get a CS1 eventually for interview work... Everything else above I've owned and used a lot...

Sorry to blabber on... but I've scoured this audio forum and there wasn't too much about some of the stuff I've said...

[PaulK]

Lots of good info. Thanks! I just have one question.


Shotgun mics are not the do all mic for video that most newbies think they are. There are times when a much cheaper hypercardioid will get a better result then a shotgun at twice the price.
From what I've heard/read, a decent shotgun mic will always outperform a top of the line lav mic. The only exception is when distance is a factor. Obviously if the subject is far away in a long shot, you would need a lav or ADL in post.

From your experience, is there any other situation where the sound quality of a lav beats a shotgun mic?

[MattinSTL]

If by a decent shotgun mic you mean an AT4073a or better... then the lav probably wouldn't sound better. If the shotgun is an me66 then one of the following lavs would smoke it; Countryman, MKE2, DPA, Sonotrim all sound really natural... but unless they're wired they'll lose a significant chunk of "soul"... but one of those through a Lectro (or similar) will probably STILL sound more natural then an me66 wired. Often times the closest mic wins... so if a lav is 6" from the mouth it'll beat an average (decent) shotgun from 2'...

When you get into the range of everything from the 4073a on up you get into mics with a sonic character that's pretty hard to beat... all else being equal.

The issue is the phrasing...

The me66 is actually a "decent" shotgun mic... and the lavs I suggested are "top of the line" lavs. So in THAT context I think the lavs win MOST of the time.

As soon as you get into the range of GOOD shotguns the lavs start to fall short... and any GREAT shotguns smoke most lavs... under ideal conditions for BOTH. But then again never forget that a top of the line hammer won't tighten bolts better then a cheap wrench... Right tool for the job ya' know... (Yeah, I hate that kind of preachy sh*t too.)

The best shotgun I've owned so far has been the AT4073a... While I had that in my bag I OFTEN chose the Oktava with the hyper cap FIRST... 'cause any indoor situation I encountered always favored the hyper. Oh I always tried the AT, since it was the most expensive mic in the bag at the time... but most of the time it went back in the bag. Even for on-cam use and outdoor shooting I used the Oktava half the time! For the other half of the time the 4073a worked great... and had more reach...

You'll notice where you quoted me I didn't mention lavs... I just think that most newbies instantly equate video sound with "shotgun" and I think they get some crappy shotgun thinking it's a decent shotgun... when they'd get 10x better sound with a fairly cheap hyper... such as the Oktava.

Make no mistake that the Oktava hyper, at under $195 S.M.O.K.E.S. the me66 at $450... If you get an Oktava hyper, K-SSM shockmount, Rycote BBG/Jammer... you'll spend a LOT less then an me66 with mount and Softie... and you'll have a FAR superior mic for most uses... and if you run a DVX then I can honestly say you'll have a far superior mic for ALL uses.

To me a lav is just what I get out when I need to do a specific job. I first reach for the hyper indoors, a shotgun outdoors, and wireless lav at range or when conditions say no shotgun and no wires. If you build a kit with those 3 mics you can cover 95% of anything that comes along... all else is candy.

[PaulK]

Your points are well taken, Matt. You're absolutely right, I did make an assumption on what you were saying about shotgun mics versus lavs. Sorry 'bout that.

BTW, I consider the 4073a and anything above as decent. While I haven't tried any that were cheaper, according to everything I've read, you can't get a better mic for less than the price of the 4073a. If there is one, I hope someone tells me about it. ;)

[ullanta]

Great post Matt!

I don't have an ME66; but it has been discussed/recommended here in the past. Can you (and hopefully a debater or two) address its problems a bit more?

Finally, in the "what I've learned that's not been said" category, I just want to comment:


A decent shockmount and adequate wind protection are crucial for satisfactory results with any camera mounted, or boomed mic... so if you don't have the cash for everything you need either wait till you do or get a cheaper mic.

Just be aware that wind protection is BAD when you don't need it. Take that word "adequate" very seriously! I have too often seen recordists in windless studios and rooms recording through heavy-duty windscreeens (and thereby coloring their sound unnecessarily). If you're indoors in a situation where you can, always avoid wind protection!

-Barry

[oleg]

just for clarification , good shotguninclude the me 66 would sounds better and natural even from 4 feet , in qwiet , non reverbing situation (outside) then every lav you mention matt ,even trew the zaxcom tx that i have (2)
but sines we are not working in the perfect world , the problems arownd bring us replace good shotgun with" crapy "lav (you good with names so you mented them all :-))

[Barry_S]

Even though I don't automatically recommend the ME66/K6, it's still a very good mic. As Oleg mentions, it is very good outdoors and in outdoor situations with a lot of ambient noise--it rocks. Good clean dialogue that punches through the muck. It's high sensitivity means you have to rely on the DVX preamps less than a low output mic. The DVX pre's are pretty good, but the more you boost a mic, the more you bring up the noise floor. Indoors--things are a little trickier with the ME66. A small bright space can be difficult to manage, although with good techniques, you can still get a very good recording.

[oleg]

Even though I don't automatically recommend the ME66/K6, it's still a very good mic. *As Oleg mentions, it is very good outdoors and in outdoor situations with a lot of ambient noise--it rocks. *

with alot of ambient noice this one is not so good , and sertanly i am the last one toreccomended , i sad that in qwiet outdoars without the noice this mike would do better then lav

[Barry_S]

Oleg, sorry if I implied you recommended both applications. I recommend the later application outdoors. I was recording interviews outdoors this weekend with the ME66 and despite excessive ambient noise, the interviews were very clear.

[Jeremy Ordan]

This is just a great thread... Tons of information that comes up again and again... and no one has posted in here for a year!

[Deadzone]

Had a question for MattinSTL. Seems like you have alot of experience with finding the best value for sound equipment. I was wondering what is your recommendation in terms of putting together a complete package? Like most people here, I plan to buy an HVX200 when it comes out. However, without good sound, most films you shoot with dialogue will suffer greatly. I was thinking of a budget in the range of $5000.

Is there somewhere on this site where you list the sound package you put together? Is there perphaps a list that shows what you think a beginning sound package should have?

Microphone: AT4073 and Oktava, or one AT4071, or one Sennheiser 416?
Lavs: ???
Shockmount:K-SSM shockmount
Windshield: Rycote BBG/Jammer
Boompole: ???
Mixer:???
Recorder:???

For the boom pole, I have seen ones selling for a hundred bucks on ebay that also have a jointed arm so that the pole can bend in angles. Are these poles decent or pieces of junk. I've seen people reccommend Sound Device mixers and recorders. I think the mixer fits in the budget, but that 7 series recorder at $3,500 is pushing it. I know I can always buy the best of the best. The problem is I have a budget to work within, and I don't know where to concentrate the money. A good example is lighting. I can buy Mole Richardson lights for five hundred a pop or Britek lights for a hundred a pop. I worked with Mole lights before and agree they are nice. They just aren't $500 a pop nice in my opinion. So here, I am running into the same problem. Any suggestions? Thanks

[MattinSTL]

Wow! I'm embarrassed, but thanks. I think this is the very first thread I started on DVXuser.com... I came to this forum for info about my camera... and I got a little burned out on the other two forums I belonged to... and the audio section of this forum didn't seem to have a whole lot of activity in it at the time... so I tried my best to explode onto the forum with the best posts I could muster... I always wondered if anybody ever read any of the old stuff I put up.

I've been through a lot more gear since this thread... but I have a ways still to go. I'm always learning and wanting improvement... so I am, by no means, any kind of an audio "guru"... I am just what I always say I am... a guy who likes sound.

Brian is right in his approach and I think every pro would agree... solving audio problems with your location is the most effective solution and should be the first thing you try to do... and I believe just as much today as when I posted that proximity of a mic is more important then the quality of a mic. The closest mic wins.

Dead... If I had to chose between a 4073a and Oktava versus just a 416 I'd have a tough time deciding. To tell you the truth I've become enamored with the AKG ULS line of modular mics. This line uses the 480b with whatever caps you need to make a particular type of mic. I have the ck69, ck63, and ck61... which means long shotgun, short shotgun, hyper-cardioid, and cardioid caps... and I also got the a61 so my long shotgun can bend 90 degrees at the center... which allows you to boom right off a floor or ceiling with no worries of knocking the mic against a surface. The a61 makes an 18" long mic handle like a 9" long one... but the AKG system is not without it's problems. One factor has been handling noise... which is NO big deal so long as you have a decent shockmount and you aren't a ham-fisted loon. And the a61 requires careful manipulation of the boom pole, because fast and sloppy motions can make the angle ratchet down a tick or two... unless you're already at 90 degrees... then it's solid.

The only reason I mention these caveats is because the 416 is my favorite mic when it comes to handling issues... simply put, the 416 doesn't have any. If you have handling noise using a 416 there would be something seriously wrong. That mic is physically dead... which I loved... and it does sound good, but in my opinion it does't sound any better then the AKG line... and with the AKG I can have -10db, 0db, or +6db... and -150hz, -70hz, and FLAT... and all of this in any type of mic I'll ever need... and I also happen to really like the sound of this system.

The whole reason I initially bought an me66 was because of all the future options I'd have with a modular approach, but the problem turned out to be that I didn't like the sound of any of the ME caps! So once I heard the AKG it was an easy decision. I actually had the AKG and a 416 for 8 or 9 months before selling the 416. I eventually concluded that there was no point in having both of 'em...

For lavs I currently think the best value is a Countryman B3 or an Audio Technica 899... but for the price difference I'd get the B3. If you can afford another $100 on top of the B3 you can get the B6 and have a mic that's easily hidden in plain site.

I still like the K-Tek shockmounts... I've bought another one since this thread started.

I still like the Rycote windshield systems... and I've got 3 Softies and 2 BBG and Jammer combos right now. For small mics like hypers you can do the BBG/Jammer thing and get fantastic results in any normal wind.

I have the K-Tek Avalon in graphite for booming... and my only complaint with it is that it could be longer. This one came with internal coiled cabling and I REALLY like that... but if I was going to buy a boom pole on a budget then I'd get the Gitzo 7680c so you could go from 33" to 151" for under $250. If you don't need a pole that long and don't want to spring $400 for the K-Tek I got you can get the same K-Tek in aluminum for $225... and it's STILL super-light and very well built. If I could do it over again I'd get either the aluminum version of the pole I have... or just get the Gitzo.

For mixer I'd suggest either a 302 or a MixPre... I don't do a lot of mixing yet so I just got the MM-1 so a boom op can here what he's doing and I have a clean pre... plus some other features... but the first two options are actual mixers and some of the very best you can get. Sound Devices makes super good stuff.

For recorder I don't know yet. I had planned on getting a Marantz 670 or 671... or even the 660... but at this point I think I'm going to wait and see how good the M-Audio MicroTrack turns out to be. I used to do second sound with a Sony minidisc recorder... but I felt like the DVX got good enough sound that I left the minidisc at home. I'm hoping some of these other recording options will beat the DVX on sound quality... I have high hopes for the M-Audio recorder.

So does that cover it? If not feel free to ask for something else and I'll do my best to help out.

[Ralph Oshiro]

FWIW: Not that I know diddly about sound but . . . I've noticed that the Sennheiser MKH60 is used on several Hollywood features and film TV shows that I've shot behind-the-scenes stuff on (they're what we use in our NBC ENG packages as well). I've only seen them being used on sound stages. By the way, it's a $1,500 mic.

[Deadzone]

Wow, thanks for the great info. So here is what I am thinking of...

Microphone: Sennheiser 416 $1,100
Boom Pole: K-tek K102CCR (side XLR) $566
Shock mount: Rycote pistol grip $315
Windscreen: Rycote $75
Blimp: Rycote $284
Headphones: Any $110
Mixer: Sound Devices 302 $1,200
Recorder: Marantz PMD-670 $700
Total $4350

If I under or overpriced any of these things, please let me know. I'm wondering if I could get away with a lightwave aluminum boom pole and a Mix Pre instead of a 302. That would save me almost a thousand right there... but would that result in crappier sound? In any case, I have a good idea of how much a bare minimum package will cost. Thanks for the help.

[Draccan]

sticky this thread please :)

[Jeremy Ordan]

Isn't it funny though, this thread is a year old, and yet Matt has been saying the same thing the whole time and these questions come up at least twice a week.

[MattinSTL]

I don't think this thread is worthy of the "sticky" honor... but thanks for feeling that way. The reason praise embarrasses me is because I really am "just a guy"... I'm not Ty Ford or Dave Fisk or any of the other guys who has experience on a much higher level. You can go to Ty's site and just listen to his voice and the productions he does... then you go to my site and it's just a haphazzard array of mic samples. So don't give my comments more value then they desserve. I'll just stick with what I always say and that's try it for yourself and report back... if I'm ever wrong about something SAY SO and why... I'll check out your argument... and we'll all move forward from there. For example, I USED to think the DVX audio was so good that you couldn't hear any improvement by using a seperate recorder... While I STILL feel the DVX audio is excellent and good enough for low-to-no budget independent film production, tigeba showed me that the audio can improve by more then I would have ever guessed. So the point is that I'm not infallible.

The one thing I will say is TheYankee is right... I do laugh to myself that 95% of the time I say the exact same things over and over. Sometimes I'll see a thread on the 4073a and I'll wait for others to post before I'll add anything.

Deadzone... the 416 is $995 at B&H.

You could get by with a cheaper boom... K-Tek aluminum avalon with internal CC is $229 at Trew, Coffey. I also like the Gitzo 7680c (12' 9" extended, but no cable) for $219 from Adorama.

I've got the Rycote pistol grip (softie version). It's decent, but I like the K-Tek mounts better. If you don't plan to use many short mics you can get the K-Tek K-SM for $122 from Trew... or if you DO plan to get some short mics later the K-SSM (with soft bands) will support the 416, but it can flop around in that mount once you get the softie on it. That's $109 at Trew. (I'd specify soft bands with EITHER of these mounts actually... I got one with the standard bands and the soft ones isolate a lot more... but you do have to compensate for sag.)

Also for the mount, windscreen, etc... it looks like you're wanting to go the blimp route... if you can afford it that's a good route to take. I notice a significant difference in the transparency of blimps over softies (not just because of the fur, but also the dead airspace in a blimp) and then I also notice a big difference in how well a blimp system (with fur jammer on) deals with wind. It would be hard to put a percentage on it, but the Softie doesn't work as well. You'll notice when a politician is being swarmed by ENG crews that you see all the poles with Softies on the end... but when you see BTS for higher budget shoots (like Survivor, etc) that it's a blimp and jammer on the end of the pole. It's not that the extra cost of the blimp system couldn't be afforded for the ENG crew... but the trouble of the extra size and handling issues are worth it when the sound needs to be as good and clear as it can possibly be... whereas it's not crucial to capture the hot-air of the politician in such detail... as long as we understand the verbage of the lie.:grin:

Headphones... I strongly suggest Sony 7506 for $99... anywhere. There are better isolating headphones at double the cost and up... but this model is used EVERYWHERE. Watch BTS stuff for ANYTHING and you constantly see these phones on almost everybody's head. They have a slight bump in the vocal range (which I hardly notice even when listening to music) which helps you hear the dialog... and they're sensitive... you can crank 'em till your ears bleed on the standard DVX headphone out... plus they pack into a tight little ball to fit in your gear bag. I'm going to go buy a second pair today 'cause I had a guy wirelessly booming on my zombie thing... and after I got home I realized that I should have been monitoring the whole time ALSO. The guy wasn't experienced and he needed to tell me when he couldn't get close enough to the action... I think he fell under the illusion that he was hearing better then the rest of us... even when (due to mic direction or distance) he was hearing WORSE... aaaarrrrgggh. So I'm off for another 7506... I LOVE those phones... and I'll bet anything you will also.

Next, Sound Devices 302... nothing to say about that other then it's excellent. I don't know if there's a better field mixer out there. Somebody would have to point it out to me if there is. That price is about right too.

For the recorder I don't know what to tell you just yet. I've used the 670 many times and I really like it, but I also thought that it wasn't a big improvement over the DVX audio using the same mics. I've heard others say that they thought the mic-pres in the 670 could be a lot better... I'm going to try out the M-Audio MicroTrack as soon as they get in stock. The MicroTrack looks like a quasi-toy... whereas the Marantz stuff is all 100% pro... but I'm thinking the M-Audio recorder may be cleaner... and it does 24/96... plus it supplies phantom via 1/4" mic-in (which you wouldn't need with the 302 but it's nice that for a simple recording you could leave the 302 at home) and obviously I wish that was XLR... but when you see this little recorder you'll see what I mean by quasi-toy. A professional sound guy wouldn't want somebody to accidentally see it in his bag... whereas with the Marantz you put it right out on the table first so everybody knows you're in charge of sound.

In your final paragraph you ask about a LightWave pole. I'm sure LightWave is a great company, but they are way overdue to revamp their economy pole... the K-Tek aluminum avalon KE-110CC is 9' 2" extended and 23.5 ounces. The Lightwave GT-10 is 9' 8" extended and 30 ounces. Six and a half ounces is a BIG difference! Especially in a pole that's the same price and the K-Tek fit and finish is excellent... all top-grade stuff. (both of those stated weights are W/O the cable figured in)

For some reason K-Tek doesn't boast about the weight of the graphite stuff but I have the avalon in graphite and it's 20.2 ounces on my digital scale... and that's WITH the cable in. How much lighter can my graphite pole be w/o the cable? Six ounces or so? Well this graphite boom was $400 and the aluminum one is only $225-229... so I spent about $175 to save 6-8 ounces... So why would you buy the LightWave for the SAME price as the aluminum K-Tek when you can save as much weight as I paid $175 for... for FREE? (And don't anybody say 'cause the GT-10 is a better pole... K-Tek is EVERYWHERE in Hollywood and you won't see one LightWave...)

Also you mentioned the MixPre... yeah it's JUST as good as the 302... but it's 2 channels mixed down to 1 instead of 3 channels mixed down to 2. I have a friend that has both... he takes the MixPre when he doesn't need 3 channels, but both mixers are of equal quality.

I'll report back when I get that digital recorder... but for now hopefully somebody else can post some thoughts on that part of your package.:thumbsup:

[kidtexas]

This reply only comes partly from experience. I'm looking to setup a similar package finally. Here's the items I've decided after talking to many:

k-tek pole - graphite or alu
k-tek k-sm shock mount - soft
rycote windshield

I haven't quite made up my mind on the mixer/recorder. I'd like to go with an SD 302 + SD722, but that's too much cash. I will probably end up deciding between an SD722 or the SD302 mixer + M-audio microtrack combo. I'm waiting to read some reviews on the microtrack before I make this decision.

I thought about the marantz 660/670/671, but it sounds as if the quality of the electronics is just not where it needs to be. If you really want to go that route, check out www.oade.com; Oade apparently does a mod to the 660 that improves the front end. Also, it doesn't sound like the 671 is that much of an upgrade to the 670.

For mics, I personally was looking for an MKH60 or an MKH50. I found some ok deals on them and ended up with both. Word of advice: if you don't need the mic *now*, look used. I got the 60 for $1k and the 50 for $750. Same goes for the 416. If you bought used, you'd have saved enough to the the octava hyper.

Ditto on the Sony headphones. Used them for years.

Having used the SD Mixpre before, I think it's a great product. I was looking at the 302 for its additional features (MS, 3rd input, more flexible outputs), but if you don't need them, I would go with the mixpre. Again, they go for around $400 used, so keep an eye out. They pop up from time to time on www.taperssection.com. A lot of good advice goes on over there too in relation to small, cheap, reliable recorders.

Edit: the Mixpre will do stereo routing; its not just 2 channels in, 1 out. Note that the outputs of the Mixpre are line level only. They can not be switched to mic level like the 302. Shouldn't make much of a difference for most recorders/cameras, but it could.

[Jeremy Ordan]

Matt,

I appreciate the humility that you offer through your above post, but one of the best things about these boards is that everyone has something to offer through their experience. Even a noob can come in and talk about a shot they got and it can inspire other people to think about shot construction in a different manner. I have read nearly all of the audio posts (I came across this one that hadn't been posted in a year and was floored), and thought it was interesting because you normally chime in with your opinions on audio. After rereading through a lot of your posts I am now where you were a couple of years ago regarding audio. I am sure that there are countless other people who experience the same issues. I think this thread deserves a sticky, otherwise we're going to continue to have the same constant shotgun questions, Oktava posts, ect. I think you are selling yourself and what you bring to the community short, because without you I would never know about Oktava or the hundreds of dollars I need to spend on top of the mic to get the sound quality I am looking for.

All of that being said, I know you don't like the ME-66, but have never heard an opinion from you on the ME-64. Several people I know are using this for interior shooting and have said that the response is great and not as tiny as the 66. Any opinions on this one?

[MattinSTL]

I have a really good friend locally who owns a Schoeps mk41, my 416 (sold it to him), a bunch of other really good audio stuff AND he owns the me66 and me64...

I have another friend in Canada who has an unbelievable amount of top-end gear including the Schoeps, MKH-60, AND the me66...

I have no idea why these guys have kept their ME mics... but the most important lesson I want people to take from any of my posts is to trust your own ears in any situation... if you like a mic then use it... but honestly I just don't care for any of the ME mics. It's not that they're BAD, it's just that other options in that price range (and often less) are way better sounding mics.

This is an old one, but CLICK HERE (http://www.gettreel.com/Me64%20FIRST%20Akg%20480b%20ck63%20SECOND.wma) to hear the difference in the me64 versus the AKG ck63. When I get a clean digital recorder I'm going to redo all my mic clips and my whole website... because I'd rather have either mp3 or WAV files instead of WMA... and the actual recordings could be better and more standardized from mic to mic. Some of the mics I can't redo 'cause I'd have to buy them again! Also since I know you weren't asking about the AKG I can tell you that an Oktava cardioid will just as easily dispatch with the me64 in terms of natural sound and more realistic tone.

If a guy really wanted a cardioid mic I'd either suggest that he add the cardioid cap to his Oktava for around $69 from sound-room... (don't forget that the Oktava I always suggest is modular and sound-room sells the caps seperately)... or if somebody wanted a complete cardioid and for some reason wanted an alternative to the Oktava I'd suggest the Audio Technica AT3031 which is about the same price for the ENTIRE mic versus just the me64 cap alone... CLICK HERE to see that mic. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=234405&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) With the AT you'd get a smoother, more natural sound at practically a throw-away price. At this point I don't really get the ME line... it was super valuable 10 years ago when no cam had an acceptable input and needed both battery power and a hot signal... but now there are cams which can do great with even an insensitive mic... and we all have phantom on tap... so nobody's trapped into going the ME route anymore... but everyone was for so long that there's a lasting reputation in the ME line that I no longer think is valid. In situations where low end resonance can be a problem such as a delivery truck going down the street while you're recording inside... or a large ventilation system that can't be turned off... people may think the me64 handled the situation really well by ignoring much of that sound through the pickup pattern or some other quality... when in reality it's a combination of a upper midrange bump and a rapid fall-off in even the upper bass... before you even get to the low-cut filter. The mic couldn't pick up "meaty" sounds well even if you wanted it to...

[Dyplodicus1975]

Matt,

Thanks for sharing your info with us, I've been sifting through it for days now. Now, that said, I still have yet to see a thread that can direct me to a good choice of reasonably priced mics to include in a (relatively) complete audio package. Before I get yelled at by everyone here (seriously though, you guys are the friendliest message board out there) I just want to say that I've also listened to all the audio samples in the "Mic Shootout," borrowed Jay Rose's book from my school's library, and poured over B&H, The Sound Room, Trew's Audio, and EVS in hopes of compiling a well-rounded audio package for just about any set-up I'll encounter (ENG/EFP- indoor and outdoor dialog, voice-over, ambient, foley). Now, I am asking for suggestions of mics to look into for said situations. I've heard great things about the Audio Technica 4073a, and the Sennheiser Evolution Wireless series, and those Octava mics you wax poetic about, but from your experience what mics and accessories are necessary to build a well-rounded audio package? Make that the most reasonably priced ($1,500-$2,000) package you can suggest. I apologize for my ignorance, its just so much information to sift through, and I don't want to say I'm a newbie (what a stupid word, anyway) but I just have never had a hard grasp on audio. I'm trying, I'm trying. Thanks man!

[tyreeford]

Lots of good info. Thanks! I just have one question.

From what I've heard/read, a decent shotgun mic will always outperform a top of the line lav mic. The only exception is when distance is a factor. Obviously if the subject is far away in a long shot, you would need a lav or ADL in post.

From your experience, is there any other situation where the sound quality of a lav beats a shotgun mic?

Sure, any time you shoot indoors. (unless you're on s soundstage)

Ty Ford

[oleg]

"Sure, any time you shoot indoors. (unless you're on s sound stage)"




Ty, that a bull:-)
you can say in very bad acoustic situation room (reverb , extremely high noise )
95 % , the boom is better choice , for the last 5 i use wireless lavs ( sorry i have good enough to stop running cables)

[tyreeford]

I'm not sure what "that a bull" means Oleg, but if it means we disagree, it won't be the first time.

Shotguns suck indoors. Hypers are better. The question was about shotguns, not hypers. As I said before, they suck indoors. The reason they suck is their off-axis funkiness and the fact that they are more omni at middle and low frequencies than a good hyper. Still, if you can't get close enough, a lav wins.

Ty (No Bull) Ford

[MattinSTL]

If I've said it once I've said it a million times... okay maybe I've actually posted this about a dozen times... the closest mic always wins. That means regardless of the cost... within reason. Everyone should know that by now.

A Schoeps at 12" will still sound better then an Oktava at 6" etc, etc. I hate saying something that seems like a simple concept, and then somebody runs with it until it sounds stupid... everything with a little common sense please.

I can't speak for Oleg, but hopefully what he meant is that certain shotguns... like a Sanken CS3e or even CS1... (or a 416, in my opinion)... CAN sound better then a lav in many interiors. Of course that's not an absolute... it's just a possibility.

I've used a 416 to good effect in some interiors... even though I normally choose a hyper. If I take the hyper out of the equation, so that I only had the choice of lav or 416... I'd probably still use the 416 half the time... and that would be instead of a Tram or MKE-2 lav.

If I'm not mistaken, the 416 is a favorite mic for VO work for a lot of guys out there... and sure they're in studio (interiors) but I've been in a lot of rooms with really nice acoustics and the 416 sounded great in them... even at 18 inches away. (overhead boom)

So I don't know... maybe that was Oleg's point... that a top end shotgun (he has several) will sound better then almost any lav when the room allows it?

[brianluce]

i've got the me66 and k6 and have found it nearly impossible to get good audio indoors. outdoors it seems to work great.

what would be a good mic to use indoors? as a match for the me66 k6?

[oleg]

thats bull shit - ill take good shot gun , every time over the Neck Ty , sorry pal , the times i record inside the tankers are very little , and frankly the sanken 3e sometimes sounds even better then my 41 - depends on the acoustics of course . Ty sorry but as i statement before -thats completely bull :-)

[brianluce]

tye, what is "off axis funkiness"? is that a technical term?

brian

[tyreeford]

thats bull shit - ill take good shot gun , every time over the Neck Ty , sorry pal , the times i record inside the tankers are very little , and frankly the sanken 3e sometimes sounds even better then my 41 - depends on the acoustics of course . Ty sorry but as i statement before -thats completely bull :-)

Hey Oleg, your choice of words is abusive. Stop it. You are over the line.

Further, you contradict yourself with your own statement. You rail on against me and then stick in "depending on acoustics"; a point I make regularly when this old acorn question rises.

Ty Ford

[oleg]

i dont contradict anything ty- the sound stage is nothing in%%% in the real world , and yes i prefer shotguns in 95 % of situations where i can deal with acoustics ( drama on location ty interiar - i do it all my life:-)), or the light and the lenses give me the ability to work ( sometimes you cant since they so inlove with the 18 mmm),and usuallyin real life its not a sound stage , not that i do it so much with shot guns since have better weapons in my bag ( hyper and cardioid)
the same rull its for doco
your statement about,remind me that in some point here in hollyland we call it" to throw the dick "( dont give a shit ) , if its sounds ok - so it ok , usially it happens after 40 , i am just crossing it so might be next year ill will say hurray Ty.

[MattinSTL]

tye, what is "off axis funkiness"? is that a technical term?

brian

What Ty meant by "off axis funkiness" is that shotguns don't have the precision of off axis response that a good hyper has.

If you take a look at the polar pattern of a Schoeps it's a smooth and well rounded balloon forward with just a tiny smooth rounded balloon tail. These polar plots are made up of individual drawings of the mic's response for each of many frequencies and they are usually indicitive of the quality of a mic. When you look at the Schoeps and think it's plot is just made up of a line or two that tells you that the mic will have the same manners of pickup regardless of angle (within reason)... so if you wanted to mic two people sitting equal distances from the mic head they'd both still sound natural even though one (or both) of them could be well off-axis.

If you look at any shotgun in comparison you'll see that it's polar plot is nowhere near as "tightly nested" as the Schoeps is. Each of the individual frequency plots will have waves and dips that follow the other lines almost like a child was trying to draw the same shape over and over and just didn't have the skill to keep the lines tight. What that means is that for a given frequency the sound of the mic will accentuate or attenuate that frequency depending on PRECISELY where that mic is pointed.

If the same two people that you mic'ed with the Schoeps were now mic'ed with the shotgun (pretty much ANY shotgun at ANY price) they wouldn't have the identical balance of tone that they previously had... because the odds are that each person wouldn't be perfectly lined up with the invisible peaks and dips of the mics pickup in the same way. Now if the people or the mic are moving then it's even MORE of a variance.

Or think of it another way... if you had a GIANT balloon inflated between two people and just overhead... if they both looked up at it they'd see the same thing... but a shotgun would be more like an upside down boquet of flowers overhead... and as you turn it or change angle it's ever changing by your perspective, even though both of you have the same general perception, it isn't identical.


If you ONLY had a shotgun and it was of the caliber of a Sanken or MKH... and a lav. I think that many times you'd have a tough time deciding which one to use for interiors. Where the issue gets blurry is when a cheaper shotgun doesn't have adequate rear or side rejection... and those guns always sound bad indoors. Many of the better guns are basically hypers anyway (okay SUPER cardioid... narrower front and longer tail... with the exceptions noted above) and if you cut the bass they can sound good in some interiors.

The other thing is that sound is subjective... so perhaps one person puts a priority on absolute handling of room acoustics while another person prefers the sense of presence that a larger diaphragm gives. If you put the argument in a matter of degrees a shotgun which can handle some interiors will sound more solid and real then a lav, but that gun may be just starting to pick up room acoustics while the lav is still sterile of them... but I'd still take the gun for it's solid presence.

I think for some interiors it's a toe-may-toe... toe-mah-toe thing.

That said, the me66 or even 4073a (which I always suggest) don't do interiors well, if at all... so for you guys with those mics don't get confused about the level of shotgun being discussed. I woudn't try interiors with anything (except for Sanken CS1) that was under $1K.

[Barry_Green]

oleg's not over the line at all. Please make allowances for english not being his native language.

He's not cursing at you. He deliberately didn't curse, instead saying something like "that is a bull". When someone asked what he meant, he clarified with the full phrase. To a native english speaker it may look like he was being overly aggressive and cursing. But that's not his style, Oleg's been with us for years and we know how he works and how he speaks. Look at the memos in context and you'll see that he was explaining what he meant by "that is a bull" in the earlier memo. Please cut him some slack and understanding.

[oleg]

Oleg is always bellow the line - we are working class people ,not actors:-)
and Ty know me well for few years from other places on the planet "net" ,so knows that i keep my languish very respectable:-) now after we killed the bull we can kill few others holy cows :-)

[tyreeford]

Actors (the ones I know) are making less than working class people. Matt explained my points in spades, hearts, clubs and diamonds.

Oleg, if I mistook you, I apologize. I hope you can apply the same attitude to my overgeneralized explanation.

Ty Ford

[SushiKing]

So, I am still a bit confused.

I am thinking of investing in the MKH-416 and I am wondering if this is going to be a versatile mic for both indoors and outside. I have read numerous threads but there is no clear answer.
I shoot both inside and out. Many times we are shooting inside busy restaurant kitchens for a quick interview with the chef. Will the MKH416 work for this situation?

I have $1000 to invest in audio. Is there a better choice, like a combo of mics for interior and exterior shots?

I hope this isn't too much of a NOOB question for this thread. :undecided

[oleg]

Don't know allot about kitchens , but usually its loud places with top light , so usually you will not have opportunity to go close enough with shot gun, wireless lavalier is actually will do much better job if you need to sink someone during the work while he throw the sea food in the air with his wok .
if i was you , ill go for some combination , used 416 or 4073 with g-2 , that way you will be able to sink the guy, take atmosphere inside the kitchen ad mix properly in the editing , for sitdown interviews you will be able to make the stuff with shotgun in most of the places , for outside both mikes could be good for different wide angle shots
so 450 for the wireless , 550 for the shot gun and another 200 for better lav ( emw with ph power and brake for wireless) , will do the job , if you stay without better lav you hit the grand bar ,
my 2 shekels
ps - WE DON'T EAT NEW BUYS TWICE A WEEK :-)

[tyreeford]

So, I am still a bit confused.

I am thinking of investing in the MKH-416 and I am wondering if this is going to be a versatile mic for both indoors and outside. I have read numerous threads but there is no clear answer.
I shoot both inside and out. Many times we are shooting inside busy restaurant kitchens for a quick interview with the chef. Will the MKH416 work for this situation?

I have $1000 to invest in audio. Is there a better choice, like a combo of mics for interior and exterior shots?

I hope this isn't too much of a NOOB question for this thread. :undecided

No, but your question is sort of like, "I have $5 and need to cross the bridge." Well the toll bridge costs $6. Can you swim?

Go to my site: http://tinyurl.com/dp2jb

Download the mp4 video and learn why a shotgun, as good as the 416 is, would be a bad choice for a noisy kitchen.

Ty Ford

[MattinSTL]

If you want a guarantee of decent audio for interiors and exteriors you should get a hyper and a shotgun. My opinion for the best bang for the buck hyper is the Oktava with hyper cap from sound-room ($165 with the coupon code "DV") and the best bang for the buck shotgun is the 4073a ($549 with a short XLR and worthless shockmount from B&H)... Then you STILL need a good shockmount (K-Tek KSSM with soft bands will support both mics but you'll be stretching the bands a bit for the 4073a... although it WILL work at $109 from Trew)... and you'll need a Softie for that 4073a outside (about $125-$130 from Trew)... and the Oktava absolutely, positively MUST have good wind protection EVEN INDOORS (Rycote BBG is $125 at Trew)... and if you want the option of using that Oktava hyper outdoors in close proximity, because it will work in close proximity but has no reach... (add the Rycote Jammer to the BBG for another $60 from Trew)... Then if you want a decent boom to get those mics close enough... and you DO... you can get an aluminum K-Tek Avalon KE-110CC which includes internal cabling (which is a luxurious joy) and that stick will cost you about $225 (Coffey or Trew)... and that pole will be 6 oz lighter then any other boom in that price range plus it's really nice. Oh, and all of this gear is worthless if you don't monitor the audio your getting... enter Sony 7506 headphones for $99 anywhere.

Okay so I didn't mention a lav there... well as you can see we're ALREADY out of money!

If you want to cover your kitchen shoot in the best possible way a lav system would probably handle the noisy, reverberrent kitchen better then the hyper... and I'd plan to get that lav for a wireless... but you could probably get an XLR version of the lav first (hardwired) and use it wired. I think the Countryman B3 is perhaps the best lav value right now ($180ish at northernsound.net)... and you can tell them that you want to be able to later run it wirelessly so you want a break for a 3.5 mini-jack... for a Sennheiser G2 system that you can purchase later ($520 EW100ENGG2 at northernsound.net)... and your lav system will cover ALL interiors that you can't do with that hyper... and if you need that wireless for an outdoor shoot you can either hide that lav under clothes and risk clothing rub (research techniques for avoiding that in the archives)... OR you can get a MicroCat for the lav ($20 each from B&H... and this is the cheapest place to get what is still a total rip for what you get... but they work).

If somebody reads all of this post and is still confused about an effective sound package then I'm going to have to take a Hiatus from this board... I really DO suggest the same stuff over and over. There's your shopping list. I could add alternative choices on everything as a matter of preferrence (at higher cost)... or additional mics that I like for improving certain odd situations... but really that's the cake and you can eat all you like... the rest is icing.:thumbsup:

[tyreeford]

Um, Gee Matt, I don't have that much money. Can you suggest something less expansive that would be as good or better?

Thanks,

Ty

[oleg]

i don't know if you are marry Ty , but dating with successful actress might help :-)

[MattinSTL]

Um, Gee Matt, I don't have that much money. Can you suggest something less expansive that would be as good or better?

Thanks,

Ty

Yeah... don't bring me down... hey look, here's a self-portrait of me. :huh:

I used to have a bristling full head of hair... before I pulled it all out.

Seriously, if anybody reading this wants a decent sound kit just start picking off items ONE AT A TIME as you can afford them... off that list. Pick whatever you need FIRST and get that... then add each part as funds allow.

The one thing that I always come back to is that this isn't the Canon ZR45 forum... Your camera wasn't $300... You had to come up with $3200 at SOME point.

I don't make CRAP for cash and I can come up with the funds to build a reasonable sound kit (okay BEYOND reasonable, but whatever)... so stay home for a couple weekends... put off that new car that you don't need yet... do whatever! I have lots of friends who are interested in the video stuff I'm doing and they're SHOCKED at how much some of the gear costs... "Man that's NUTS! A thousand dollar mic!? Jeez you're CRAZY!"

Then that guy drives off in a FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLAR truck!

Or another friend who thinks I'm crazy with this stuff... just before they sit down to watch CSI on a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR television.

Sure, this stuff isn't cheap... but it's not as pricey as scuba diving was... or lots of other sh*t I got into... so if you're just not into audio and you don't REALLY care that much about improving your audio for video quit kidding yourself and just admit that it isn't REALLY that important to you!

It's easy for me to understand why guys like Ty or Oleg get so pissed when somebody comes along that WANTS professional sound but isn't willing to do or spend anything to get it. These guys make their living on doing sound... and every sound guy knows the same aggravations of a shoot... NOBODY has respect for sound UNTIL the shoot is over... and it's either good, or it isn't, based largely on the work of the sound guy.

The sound guy is the unsung hero of any production... ironic statement isn't it?

[tyreeford]

No secret to that. On the set, crew and usually the director unless he/she is also listening on cans have no idea what the mics are picking up. They can watch the monitor to see what the DP is doing and get off on that, but they don't have a clue about the sound. Are the levels good, is there too much bleed, is there a weird reflection thing happening, is there a distant car, truck, plane, dog, generator, is one actor amazing louder than the other, what was that buzz, is the necklace about to hit the lav or did it just hit the lav? And about a hundred other little tthings that can bust a take.

You want to know more? Go to my website, click on the location audio link and download The Letter.

Oh, and please don't tell me what mic to use and where to put it. Don't get pissed at me when I tell you the take was a bust for audio because I heard a bus, plane or something. And after the LD takes forty minutes to tweek the lights, don't jump up my ass when I need three minutes to change batteries, reposition a mic or swap out a cable.

Thanks,

Your Pal,

Ty Ford

[MattinSTL]

That's the funniest post I ever read... I know YOU'RE not laughing, but anybody who's ever done sound for pay is... There's humor in truth.

My first paying gig was through a lady I met working on documentaries... some really serious medical stuff. That proved to be a rapid education on everything that can go wrong for sound.

That's how I grew to love the mic system I use for a lot of stuff now. I have -10db, 0db, +6db... and that can be combined with flat, 75hz cut, and 150hz cut... all on the mic. It's amazing how penetrating a delivery truck is!

Hey have you ever been doing a serious interview with a hyper pointing more or less right down the subject's throat? Sure you start off at a slight angle so the speaker isn't DEAD-ON axis, but they move or somehow the mic get's a shot straight to their upper-intestine...

"Let's break for lunch!"

...20 minutes later...

"So as I was saying... this is a very serious disease... WEEEweeewee fizzz blurble... that we're fighting."

What's the excuse you come up with when everybody sees you sitting there with cans on and seemingly on the edge of bursting into laughter while everyone's listening to a terrible story? Can you say... "hey let's give this lady 20 more minutes to digest that sandwich!"... especially when you know you have to be done in 10 minutes...

...and nobody likes the idea of skipping lunch... ha!

Good times... good times.

[Beaker]

Hmm...some of these discussions are getting discouraging.....I purchased an AT 4073a for about $530 and I am now being told in one thread that it is no good for interior work. Its sensitivity, in the opinion of the poster, picks up every noise in the vicinity. I plan to use it for interviews on a stand with a shock mount. I do not intend to use it for recording acting or such. What gives? This $530 mic is no good for interview work after all?

[MattinSTL]

You can use anything that works... if it does okay for your interviews then don't worry about it. You might have to do some careful positioning or else get it close the the interviewee... or use their body as a shield against room reflections... but basically, if you do some interior interviews and it seems like you can hear a LOT of room reflections... or other audible cues of the space... don't say I didn't warn you.

There are many types of mic... and that's why you see pages and pages of mics in any catalog... even from the same manufacturer.

The 4073a has some incredible strengths... but NO mic does EVERYTHING well. That's the breaks.

I've got about 10 different mics... I didn't buy 'em 'cause they were cute... A regular guy doesn't really need that many mics, but eventually you should have 3 or 4 at least.

[tyreeford]

Hmm...some of these discussions are getting discouraging.....I purchased an AT 4073a for about $530 and I am now being told in one thread that it is no good for interior work. Its sensitivity, in the opinion of the poster, picks up every noise in the vicinity. I plan to use it for interviews on a stand with a shock mount. I do not intend to use it for recording acting or such. What gives? This $530 mic is no good for interview work after all?

Shotguns are more omni directional at mid and low frequencies. I know I've said that 12 million times, well maybe 8 million. Again, do yourself a favor and hop over to my website and click on the OnLine Archives.

In the Video folder there's an mp4 tutorial that explains it all. NO MORE CRABBING UNTIL YOU WATCH THE VIDEO!!!!!

Ty Ford

[jbr]

You can use anything that works...<snip>... but NO mic does EVERYTHING well. That's the breaks.

I really love this thread. You guys hit the nail on the head with your recommendations and comments.

I wanted some suggestions from the group on stereo mic selections, especially for MattSTL, Yankee and Ty. I already sent this to Dave privately at work.

I want to record stereo audio ambience for my outdoor scenic filming with my DVX100a. Audio is my formal training, and I love the ambience imaging that stereo provides.

I looked at the single-body stereo mics from various companies, but I saw some bad reports on some of their side behavior. I had planned to use two (2) Oktava MK012 mics with the hyper-cardioid capsules. I like being able to control the width and angle of pointing with two individual mikes. The Oktavas will provide that feature at a great price.

Wind Protection:
My reading and phone conversations thus far have told me that the Severe Condition Windscreen for the Oktavas from the Sound Room are the design product of Craig Olsen at WindTech. In fact, I got to talk with Craig by phone and learned the Sound Room windscreen (above) is the same as the WindTech US-2. There is no MicMuff (fur) for this product at this time, however, he said he could crank it out in a week, if he had to.

Many, many comments on the Audio Forum have agreed that the windscreen for the Oktava is not enough, even in normal outdoor circumstances. Some readers have specified problems with the two layer $49 windscreen that the Sound Room lists. (The $49 windscreen is the same $25 Windtech UltraSeries US-2.)

Overall, it seems the recommendation is rather to spend the money on the Rycote BBG and matching Windjammer (also reads as $$'s, especially when you are talking stereo, right?). I can pay for it once, but not twice for chosing the wrong wind protection.

The reason I am concerned with wind noise is because we almost always have wind, here in Texas, and most of my creative shooting will be outdoors.

I have to mount these two Oktavas in a shock mount. Here, I had planned to follow the highly recommended K-Tek SSM route with the ultra-soft rubber mounts. The Rycote BBG and the K-Tek SSM seem to match together well--no mounting problems like with a full size blimp since the BBG is covering the module.

The K-Tek SSM terminate with female 3/8" threads, correct? I need to mount the two (2) K-Tek SSMs on a bar or plate for horizontal separation. So far, the bars and plates I have found have 5/8" microphone threads that will need to be adapted to 3/8" male threads for the two K-Tek SSM shock mounts. The center hole of the bar or plate is usually either 3/8" or 5/8"--I can make the middle hole adapt easily to the needed 3/8" female thread for the boompole.

Here's another possible alternative for the Oktavas -- I have seen the Rycote Stereo Extended Suspension (040215) and the Rycote Stereo Extended XY/MS Ball Gag Suspension Hoop (048426). I did not know if these two mounts would support the small Oktavas or not? I know these mounts are primarily designed for the small capsule head mikes. I need to depend upon your expertise with these two products, to know if they are even usable. If not, just say forget it, and I'll go back up to Option 1 above with the horizontal bar.

Side Note: Rycote list Redding Audio as their US Distributor. I dropped them a note over the weekend, since Rycote does not list the Oktava mics in their database. I mentioned the BBG especially being used with the MK012, since the guys on the forum like it. Here is their reply:

*******
"There are not many items that Rycote recommends for the Octava. Because if its flare around the capsule area, it cannot be used with a Softie. The BBG that you saw online is also not recommended by Rycote for the same reason. The only solution recommended by Rycote is a full Windshield system. For more information on pricing and availability, please contact one of our Rycote dealers listed on our website at www.reddingaudio.com.

Regards,
Patricia Glatzel - Customer Support
Redding Audio, Inc. 97 South Main Street Unit 10 Newtown, CT 06470
Phone: (203) 270.1808 Fax: (203) 270.2934 Web: www.reddingaudio.com
Exclusive U.S. Distributor of Rycote Windshields, Schoeps Microphones and Lightwave Audio Systems
*******

So, that is what I am trying to do with the Oktava hyper-cardioids--stereo imaging of ambient surroundings, and the wind protection issues.

Tell me what you think. Am I wrong trying to do it this way? I thought they might work well as directional mikes outdoors. Should I opt, instead, for using the 4073's as a pair instead? There's no sense in wasting money here on Oktavas as stereo ambience mics, if they are not going to work. I recognize their true benefits with indoor close-up miking techniques (Thanks for the great video demo, Ty).

Thanks for your wisdom and recommendations.

[Jeremy Ordan]

JBR,

Ty is a pro and Matt is an expert (in my opinion) with audio. I know nothing, so the only thing I could share with you would be recycled garbage that I read and couldn't stand behind anything along those lines. Ty, Oleg, & Matt(you might be able to email him still through the site, not sure) would be the people to ask, in that order. Sorry but I know nothing!

[Jeremy Ordan]

OK, I reread your post, and I have an idea that you are not going to like, because no audiophile will like it, but it will work, give you the desired effect you are looking for, but most importantly, it will work and save you hundreds (if not thousands) in the long and short run. This is the exact method I use to get my stereo sound:

Use 1 mic. Record as normal. Take finished file and drop into sound forge, copy R channel to left channel. Save file.

It will not give you that true stereo, but if you play with it a bit, it will work for you.

If it is the ambience you are looking for, I would just record an ambient track and then layer the two in sound forge or whatever NLE you are using. I know this doesn't seem like an ideal solution, but then again, if it aint broken...

[MattinSTL]

Boy this is the thread that just won't die. Hey I've got no problem with that... it's ironic that this was my VERY FIRST POST ever to DVXuser... I was lurking about like I'm sure many people are right now... I felt like a refugee from the other online forums, which were becoming less and less satisfying. So I figured that I wanted to explode onto the scene with everything I had at the time... and although some of my ideas about audio for video have changed, I think most of the advice in this thread is pretty solid.

I use a stereo pair of Oktavas fairly often. All you need is any kind of flat bar to mount the K-SSM pair to and then mount that to your boom, stand, or whatever. I do Oktava stereo with the BBG/Jammer on each. You are looking at a few bucks once you get a pair of those, but I didn't like the huge ball that Rycote sells for mounting a pair inside of one blimp. I'd chalk that up to personal preferrence though.

I will put one thing frankly however... Rycote needs to get their head out of their asses on this Oktava/BBG thing. They tried to talk me out of that a long time ago and I sent an email explaining that they were DEAD WRONG about it. Sure you can't push the flared cap of the Oktava through the snug rubber hole on the BBG, but the damn thing splits in half right down the center! So you can push the XLR end of the Oktava down through that half from the inside OR you can push the Oktava up through it before you screw the cap on... Once the mic is centered in the ball you just screw the two halves of the BBG back together and it's THE PERFECT solution for the Oktava. I don't think I was the first person to order the BBG/Jammer for the Oktavas, but I had to be one of the first... all I know is there's been about a dozen people that I talk to online since then and we ALL agree that it just couldn't be any better. Wake up Rycote!

I did a comparison a while back to show the levels of wind protection, but that wasn't the best sounding test... and I don't feel like looking for it, so maybe it's time for a new test and a new thread on that. The gist of that thread is going to show you that the BBG/Jammer is incredibly effective, and while the cost seems high, it simply gets the job done. I can't vouch for a particular "gust speed" or your particular shooting circumstance, but the only thing that will be more effective then the BBG/Jammer in a high wind is going to be a full-blimp with the super-long-haired jammer. The windtech screens aren't even in the same league as the BBG alone, then when you add the fur it just gets rediculous to compare the two. For indoor shooting even the windtech is probably fine though... The level of windprotection you need depends on what you're planning to attempt with your mics... and never use more then you need. (fur attenuates highs/transparency)

[jbr]

Matt and Yankee,

Thanks for your observations and above all, taking the time to write.

Yankee, I'll keep your recommendation in mind if other things don't pan out.

Matt, thanks for the Rycote reminder. Maybe I should rephrase it and send her a response saying the same thing.

Here's where I need your expertise, especially since you own the Oktavas. For my use as stereo ambience in filming, will the Oktavas with hyper-cardioids do what I want, or do I need to try to do the same with other equipment, such as a pair of 4073's?

Ambient noise would be sounds in your own backyard with the dog next door barking in the background, traffic driving down the street, buses and trucks passing from left to right, the sound of rain. The ambient sound should come from the direction of the camera lens, such as children playing on the school playground--not just two omni mikes gathering every noise in the world. Let's call it "Directed Ambient Sound", so that is selective, from the camera's POV. It would not be on-screen talent type sound, which requires close miking.

So which is going to provide the best job for this designated effect, a pair of Okata hypers or 4073s?

[MattinSTL]

For that effect I'd go with the Oktavas... the thing about the 4073a is it's still a shotgun and it doesn't sound as open and natural as the Oktavas will, even though it's got EXCELLENT reach and the Oktavas don't, you'll find the hypers will gather a more full stereo image... either way you'll probably be elated with the result, but for stereo imaging I just don't think you need to spend the cash for a pair of 4073a.

I'm just curious why are you so concerned about this stereo image? I mean this honestly, not sarcastically. When I use the Oktavas for stereo I use them ORTF, which means they approximate your ears... the mics point out at about 45 degrees with the heads about 7 inches apart. Picture a see-through head with the ear canals being the mic bodies and the eardrums are the mic diaphragms. This gives a really wide and deep stereo image that I like to get lost in... pop on some headphones, close your eyes, and you can remember that place perfectly.

The 4073a pair would probably be more prone to hot-spots where anything that's directly on axis with each mic will be much more pronounced.

[Jeremy Ordan]

One thing you need to admit about Matt's posts is he normally is pretty dead on with his descriptions... Here is a man that takes time to post...

I wanna know why you never yell though.

[MattinSTL]

It's because the guy untying the yaht will get his arm torn off.

Damn I wish you guys ALL watched Arrested Development... I guess I need to change my signature to something more mainstream. I had Gob as an avatar for a while, and then just to be stupid I changed it to Franklin... but I think only 1 out of every 100 members knew who it was.

[jbr]

For that effect I'd go with the Oktavas...<snip>...you'll find the hypers will gather a more full stereo image... either way you'll probably be elated with the result, but for stereo imaging I just don't think you need to spend the cash for a pair of 4073a.
Well, first, thank you for your helpful comments. I also thought the hypers will be much more full in fidelity. On the other side of the coin, I already have a 4073 and I have a chance to pick-up a second 4073 cheaper than I can buy two (2) new Oktavas!!! Now do I have your attention?

I didn't want to buy the Oktavas, then find out later that I could have had better results with the 4073's for the same money. With your excellent background and personal inventory of equipment, I thought maybe you could speak from experience, and if possible, do a little A/B comparison for us.

Although each has their own special niche, we are comparing two $500+ mics vs. two $165 mics. That has to at least stop and make you think twice about your decision...and that's before we throw on the wind protection costs. We'll want to talk about Softies for the 4073 later. For now, let's talk mikes and stereo imaging.


When I use the Oktavas for stereo I use them ORTF, which means they approximate your ears...<snip>... pop on some headphones, close your eyes, and you can remember that place perfectly.
That is EXACTLY where I am trying to place the viewer in my production. I want them to feel that they are as close to being as possible. The stereo image separation is what makes that possible. I love my Audio.

Speaking of headphones, I love my Senn HD650 with Cardas cabling. Put them on and turn it up. That's where I want to be.


The 4073a pair would probably be more prone to hot-spots where anything that's directly on axis with each mic will be much more pronounced.
I was thinking that too, but at most shooting distances, hot-spots will not be a problem. Just wish I had a pair of both to demo, and then sign the check for the best in show!

Decisions...decisions
tick...tick...tick

[MattinSTL]

I gotta' be honest with you and admit that I've never done a stereo shotgun setup... so maybe some pros on the board can comment.

I can't imagine that there's too many times when a stereo shotgun configuration is used though... in fact I've never heard of somebody doing that... unless it's to mic two people independently.

I'm intrigued by the possibility of what that could sound like, but if I was a betting man (and I actually am) I'd guess the hypers to give a much better result. I just think you'd have a more "full" spread of soundstage then you'd have with two guns... but I also considered that you could have a deeper soundstage with the guns... like I said this one is tough to call without a real experiment.

If it were me I'd probably go with the two hypers... which should be no more then $330 for the pair (plus windprotection... hence your comment about price?) But the fact is that I'm only commenting on what I already have and use... so you might get to blaze your own trail on this one... I can't give you an absolutely certain answer.

EDIT: I reread your last post and if you're THAT much of an audiophile then you have bigger nuts to crack. For as great as the DVX audio is it can get surprisingly better with a seperate recorder...

I'll try to get some stuff posted in the next day or two and you'll know that it's partially JUST for you. I already want to redo my Oktava windprotection tests and I'll just set up a pair at the same time... and you can get a grasp of the soundstage based on that... but I can already tell you it's impressive, it's just a question of whether or not the 4073a pair would be even more so.

[tyreeford]

Well are we talking about mics that are listed as stereo/shotgun mics or using two shotguns to create a stereo field?

A lot of folks who first come across the term "stereo/shotgun" think it's actually a stereo shotgun. It's not. It's a stereo mic and a (mono) shotgun, but not both at the same time.

The Sanken CSS-5, AT 835ST and Sennheiser 418 are examples of stereo/shotgun mics.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[jbr]

Well are we talking about mics that are listed as stereo/shotgun mics or using two shotguns to create a stereo field?

Hi Ty! Thanks for asking.

First, thank you for your helpful contributions. They are very much appreciated, especially your video that you took the time to make. You went the extra mile!

Re: the shotguns, this would be using two (2) 4073's to gather the stereo ambient field setting from the POV of the camera. As mentioned earlier, perhaps 7" apart at 30 to 45 degress off axis to the camera's left and right. Probably more towards 30 degrees each way, if using the shotguns. Remember, this is field recording of the setting, not a voice talent with up close miking (sorry, talent loses out on this gig :-).

We're just thinking out loud here. Lots of nice guys (like you) here who enjoy the challenge.

I'm hoping to find someone who has tried to do this before, seriously, or who has the equipiment and would be willing to render the time to try this out and give us a professional recommendation.

By the way to all, Dave has kindly recommended a nice alternative to the Oktavas that is equal in price, but higher in performance and construction quality--the Rode NT-5 (sold as a matched pair) for $350. If you want it all in one single mic housing, the NT4 with the fixed angle heads has the same technical performance for $450.

Interesting reading. Nice quality for the same money.

Check out http://www.rodemic.com for product specs and reviews.

[tyreeford]

JBR,

You're welcome. Seems like that little video has helped a lot of folks.

I would try dueling shotguns by positioning them so the capsules are vertically aligned.
The capsules are usually at the base of the interference tubes.

This will help to ensure mono compatibility should the audio ever end up in mono and sometimes it just does.

Ty Ford

[jbr]

That's a great technical help, Ty. Since you are one of the "wizards" around here, how about taking your best guess, or call upon those in the industry that you know, about the situation I have described of recording an ambient stereo soundtrack.

Which will work best? Cardioids (high quality), Hypers, or Shotguns.

Which technique or alignment will work best? XY, M/S, or Matt's favorite-ORTF-that approximate your ears.

Most situations will be outdoors; could be some interiors. The stereo imaging will place the viewer "in" that situation with the true stereo imaging separation.

Thanks for any of your recommendations!

[tyreeford]

'pends on how close or far from the squeege you are and how much of it you really want in your waffle. Know what I mean?

I like hypers. I can pull back if I want more squeege. No gettin' around it; you can't get rid of squeege once you got it, regardless of which method you use.

Ty

[jbr]

Ty, you are a hoot! So help me here, make some affordable recommendations for a pair of hypers.

I mentioned earlier that Dave likes the Rode NT5 pair over the Oktava, but they are cardioid. Looking for other possible options that can ride side by side in shock mounts, about 7" apart on a horizontal bar.

[Dave_Fisk]

When you say affordable, what is your budget for a pair of mics? That was one thing I never found out. If you want a pair of hypers for under a grand, then you might be stuck with the Oktavas. Otherwise, a schoeps pair, or nuemann pair would work. I have to stress that I personally feel that for recording BG's, I REALLY like recording MS. It's much more natural sounding. A single point MS mic would work great, like a VP88, or Neumann RSM191.

-Dave

[jbr]

Good evening to you. I've been trying to do some research and reading behind the scenes. Thanks for your observations today.

I am afraid that the last two mics you mentioned are way out of my personal budget. I know they would do a GREAT job, but I would have to sell a couple of my children to afford that much quality, but I thank you for your helpful recommendations. I realize you get to rub elbows with the great all day long. Can I be one of your cheap friends?

To answer your direct question, I'd like to stay around $500 or less for the ambient stereo configuration.

I like the price of the Oktavas and the Rode NT5 pair. I don't have a problem with the NT5s, if they would do the job correctly. They have good reviews and thumbs up for the cost; better in many respect than the Oktavas. I was just a little concerned about the pattern. Of course, I have not seen a chart for the MK012s hypers to compare the two different patterns of the products on paper--emphasis on the word 'paper'.

I already have one 4073. That's why I had asked earlier about using a second unit to acheive my desired sound, from the POV of the camera. It has some pickup on the side, but not much.

You have my personal respect and honor. It would be very helpful to make the best comparison of the two affordable products--the pros and cons of each. If there is nothing else out there, then I can accept that, too! I'm just asking questions that are helpful to me, to make the best decision. I'll bet others are out there, reading this and wondering as well.

A reminder from my comments earlier. One of the benefits of the Oktava hyper was providing a good sounding close mic for interior use over the characteristics of using a shotgun indoors (side rejection). For the money, it sounded pretty good.

You are a wealth of wisdom. I enjoy your commentary. It is always helpful and educational to those of us who are still learning. Thanks for asking, and thanks for sharing.

[tyreeford]

The AT 4053 are less expensive than (and don't sound as good as) the Schoeps cmc641. I've seen them for $499 each.

Ty Ford

[jbr]

The AT 4053 are less expensive than (and don't sound as good as) the Schoeps cmc641. I've seen them for $499 each.

Ty,

I hope you were talking and typing about the AT4073 shotgun mike, not the '4053'. I'm was considering matching the 4073 that I already own, in qwest of my stereo recording. I can get a second one in B stock for $330.

I did a Google on the AT 4053 you mentioned (just in case):
"Audio-Technica AT4053A-EL is a hyper-cardioid element for the AT4900A body and power supply."

Looks like that element is about $200, and you still need to have the AT4900A body (which I don't own).

I don't think you were talking about that mike or the Schoeps being $499--but I could be wrong.

Have you had any experience, or known others who have used the Rode NT5 (NT4) products? I would like to have a vote of confidence from others. They certainly look nice. Just wonder how they sound and if they would do the job correctly?

[tyreeford]

Like I said; the AT4053... http://www.wwbw.com/Audio-Technica-AT4053-i30138.music

or, http://www.dailyhumor.net/AT4053.html

around $499.

cmc641 is about $1400

I reviewed the NT4, but it's been a while. I think the review is on my site. They and the NT5 are not hypercardioid, just cardioid. You'll likely get too much squeege with them.

Ty Ford

[jbr]

Thanks for your clarification and thanks for the helpful observation, as well.

Seeing how I don't have an extra $1k, I'll have to be more resourceful...perhaps a rich uncle will remember me in his will...whoops, I don't have any uncles :-(

Thank you, Ty.

[MattinSTL]

FYI you can get an Audio Technica AT-4053a (hyper) from B&H for $395.95 plus free shipping.

I'd STILL suggest you go with the SE300b/CK93 (hyper) from AKG which is in that ballpark. If that's too rich for your blood then we're back to the Oktava.

Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option... even though it's more initially you can just buy different capsules to swap out on the SE300b mic body... so once you've got that "foundation" paid for you can get other high-quality mics with just the price of each capsule.

Ty and everybody else will tell you the same thing too... it's more important to use a mic properly and get it close enough then it is to get the best mic you possibly can. (Obviously I endorse spending as much as you can AND using the mic properly... but I'm just sayin'...)

[jbr]

FYI you can get an Audio Technica AT-4053a (hyper) from B&H for $395.95 plus free shipping.

I'd STILL suggest you go with the SE300b/CK93 (hyper) from AKG...Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option

The original question has been (given the budget of $500), which way should I go next to get my ambient stereo sound?

I already have a new AT-4073a (shotgun), so I am not starting out from ground zero in that department. Do I purchase another 4073a, which I can get B Stock for $330 locally--will that give me my package sound?

or

Do I spend the money on two new and different types of mics--which will give me the package sound I am looking for, since two (2) shotguns will not do it.

Suggestions thus far have been:
1) two (2) matched Oktava MK012 (hypers) = $378 (list price)
2) two (2) matched Rode MT5 (cardioids) = $350 (Dave recommends)
3) two (2) Audio Technica AT-4053a (hypers) $396 ea. = $792 (special pricing)
4) two (2) AKG SE300b/CK93 (hypers) $387 ea. = $774 (special pricing)

Ok Matt...I'm ready for you.
Geeeee! This really going to hurt.

[MattinSTL]

Sorry, I forgot that we covered the fact that you're not starting at zero.

I think you'll find that stereo recording won't be that frequent of a thing after you do it for a while... it's really cool, but it's also kind of gimmicky. I know you don't think so right now, but eventually you will. For straight up audio I love it, but for video it doesn't always give you the best result for television. No dialog is ever done in stereo that I know of... but anyway...

My point is that I'd probably go with the two Oktavas... since the stereo thing is important to you right now... and earlier I wasn't trying to avoid the subject of stereo shotguns, I just meant that it's rare to see somebody using TWO shotguns in any kind of a stereo setup. I've seen two guns used together in what might LOOK like a stereo setup, but it's just a way to better cover two sources, rather then any focus on stereo space.

So anyway, since you have exteriors covered with that 4073a you could get interiors covered with an Oktava, and then the second one is just to do your stereo thing. If you have the cash to spend... I do think the 300b/ck93 is a great option, but you still need windprotection and shockmounting... so that's the main reason I often turn to the Oktava. I like good mics and if you can spend more then I say why not... but I'd rather see you get good windprotection and shockmounts if it comes down to making the budget.

My economy choice is #1... my ideal choice is #4. If you do get serious about the AKG route then you should send an email to cavell at rvacanada dot com and ask for current pricing on those... and tell her you're considering a pair ('cause that may get you a little better price, but I don't know)... then calculate the currency exchange from Canadian... then compare that quote with one you get by calling Trew.

I still use both my Oktavas and my AKG and I like both of them... so either way you'll be happy. I just think it's nuts to get another 4073a for the stereo "trick" and then still be left without a good indoor mic... but I will say the price you quoted is insanely cheap for that 4073a. It's too bad you already have one. That thing would disappear in a heartbeat if you accidentally said the location of it. (so don't unless you are positive you don't want it)

[jbr]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's a lot of thanks for a job well done!

Matt, you write things so clearly that even a blind man could read them. I agree with your helpful descriptions. The cheap route makes the most sense.

I will do as you suggested, however, and contact cavell. I can also contact Trew. Hopefully, B&H will be back in their offices soon, and I can get them to respond with a price, as well. They are out of their office, more than they are in, during this special month for them. I, personally, am proud that they stand up for their beliefs.

Good Folks!

Thanks again. A mighty fine job tonight.

[Bruce Morgan]

FYI you can get an Audio Technica AT-4053a (hyper) from B&H for $395.95 plus free shipping.

I'd STILL suggest you go with the SE300b/CK93 (hyper) from AKG which is in that ballpark. If that's too rich for your blood then we're back to the Oktava.

Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option... even though it's more initially you can just buy different capsules to swap out on the SE300b mic body... so once you've got that "foundation" paid for you can get other high-quality mics with just the price of each capsule.

Ty and everybody else will tell you the same thing too... it's more important to use a mic properly and get it close enough then it is to get the best mic you possibly can. (Obviously I endorse spending as much as you can AND using the mic properly... but I'm just sayin'...)
:thumbsup: First my thanks for the great posts you have under sound .
This subject is always less respected until it is too late .
If I may ask you a few questions
they are as follows
I have at the advice of the late great Bruce Scott a audio technica at 897
which I believe is a short shot gun and adequate for a two shot I was reading your post and you havew some pretty strong opinions on mikes or should I say you had some pretty decisive results with the mics you liked .
What do you think of the AT897?
I also have a very old set of akg mics ck 22 (omni directional mic plus the ck 1 ,ck2 , ck 8 and the long true shot gun ck9.Have you or your sound pro friends an opinion on these mics ?
i have used the akg ck8 short shot gun on two shot set ups on some features at the advice of a universal studio sound mixer named Ed Sommers ..that ck8 works very well with my old nagra 3 recorders .
Thanks again for anyfeedback or reflection you can give me on the use of these mics and thanks for the great posts
All The Best
Bruce
:thumbsup:

[MattinSTL]

Bruce I'm sorry I can't give you an experienced opinion on any of the mics you just listed! (most of the mics I talk about are ones that I bought) The reason I plug the 897 is because it was the only/best choice (shotgun) at it's price point for a while (I mean the only choice that I'd buy) and now with the Rode NT mics I'd have to check them both out in detail before choosing, but I still think the 897 is for sure the first or second best choice at that price (and the margin of victory wouldn't be much for either mic over the other). Also if you check the paper on the 897 (yeah I KNOW paper specs aren't all that, but they do say something and in my experience you get a pretty good idea of what a mic will sound like based on 3 specs, sensitivity, polar pattern, and frequency response) so anyway, you can see even on paper that the 897 is a much better choice then some other mainstays that cost even more.

And for the older AKG's I'm sorry but I just don't have anything to base a judgement on those... I have some friends who are strictly into music and they love older mics... so maybe I can ask one of them, but honestly if a mic sounds good then it is good in my book.

[Oleg 2]

:thumbsup: First my thanks for the great posts you have under sound .
This subject is always less respected until it is too late .
If I may ask you a few questions
they are as follows
I have at the advice of the late great Bruce Scott a audio technica at 897
which I believe is a short shot gun and adequate for a two shot I was reading your post and you havew some pretty strong opinions on mikes or should I say you had some pretty decisive results with the mics you liked .
What do you think of the AT897?
I also have a very old set of akg mics ck 22 (omni directional mic plus the ck 1 ,ck2 , ck 8 and the long true shot gun ck9.Have you or your sound pro friends an opinion on these mics ?
i have used the akg ck8 short shot gun on two shot set ups on some features at the advice of a universal studio sound mixer named Ed Sommers ..that ck8 works very well with my old nagra 3 recorders .
Thanks again for anyfeedback or reflection you can give me on the use of these mics and thanks for the great posts
All The Best

Bruce
:thumbsup:


very nice mikes - i didn't work adges with these ( 451+ck1,8,9)
very worm sound for the ck-1
i still have completely new foam for the 9 ( the big piramide)
some memories before the Shoepses and Sennheisers came in

[Reno]

Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option... even though it's more initially you can just buy different capsules to swap out on the SE300b mic body... so once you've got that "foundation" paid for you can get other high-quality mics with just the price of each capsule.



Hi,

I am a still photographer whose son is studying film. Basically he is interested in shorts and features and has a very limited budget. We picked up the dvx and have zero accessories at the moment. I figured in a pinch he would be able to use my tripod and some hot lights until he can afford the correct equipment. Sound is another matter. I have carefully read this entire thread and BOY! do I have a headache.

Since he is starting out with zero I see the logic in going with the SE300b/CK93 and build from there. However, the cost of the 4073 and a Oktava would be fairly equivalent if not cheaper then the SE300b with the hyper and shotgun caps You would also have the benefit of two separate mics if you need a second input. So my question is, which is really the best way to go. Are multiple inputs more beneficial then a high quality single.

Thanks,
Reno

P.S. Great stuff in this thread.

[Jeremy Ordan]

Hi,

I am a still photographer whose son is studying film. Basically he is interested in shorts and features and has a very limited budget. We picked up the dvx and have zero accessories at the moment. I figured in a pinch he would be able to use my tripod and some hot lights until he can afford the correct equipment. Sound is another matter. I have carefully read this entire thread and BOY! do I have a headache.

Since he is starting out with zero I see the logic in going with the SE300b/CK93 and build from there. However, the cost of the 4073 and a Oktava would be fairly equivalent if not cheaper then the SE300b with the hyper and shotgun caps You would also have the benefit of two separate mics if you need a second input. So my question is, which is really the best way to go. Are multiple inputs more beneficial then a high quality single.

Thanks,
Reno

P.S. Great stuff in this thread.

The SE300B with the hyper cap is a lot cheaper than the 4073a. If he is just getting started in the film aspect I would recommend that you look at the AT897. Great all around mic that he can grow with but get good results out of now.

[MattinSTL]

Since he is starting out with zero I see the logic in going with the SE300b/CK93 and build from there. However, the cost of the 4073 and a Oktava would be fairly equivalent if not cheaper then the SE300b with the hyper and shotgun caps You would also have the benefit of two separate mics if you need a second input. So my question is, which is really the best way to go. Are multiple inputs more beneficial then a high quality single.


This was the crux of the discussion that Yankee and I had back and forth through posts and PM's on the merits of Oktava/4073a versus SE300b/ck93/ck98... and I'll tell you what I told him. There is some benefit in having two seperate mics... since we've covered that totally I'll focus on the merits of the AKG. You get one of the best hypers (short of a Scheops) available... hypers are for interiors and the ck93 is a VERY good hyper... but you get a gun that's maybe just slightly inferior to the 4073a... and maybe NOT even inferior, but just a slightly different flavor. FROM MY EXPERIENCE ONLY I suggest the Oktava/4073a option... because I have a lot of time in with both of those mics... but I'm also a BIG fan of AKG... and since you'll be getting a really good hyper the question really comes down to what you'd rather have between the ck98 and 4073a. That is the question that I'm really not qualified to answer, but again, I'll tell you what I told Yankee... I bought the AKG ULS system based on just a few clips I heard, a little bit that I read, on-paper specs, and a gut feeling... and I've absolutely loved this mic system. At this point I've bought all the caps and accessories except for the omni cap... but I got everything else! So like I said... I am a BIG fan of AKG mics... BUT I still use my Oktavas all the time... so really I don't think you can go wrong either way. The advantages of one over the other will be matters of personal preferrence... and you probably won't even know the difference until you (or your son) gets a lot of mic'ing experience.

Sorry if that isn't a precise enough answer for you, but the fact is I don't think you can make a bad choice here... either route will get you good results.

Also if you check the places I've said to check the pricing shouldn't be much different between the two choices.

[Joe Kras]

Matt's gotten so used to the precision needed in handling the Octavas to avoid handling noise, that he's forgotten how frustrating that could be to someone relatively new to video and sound.

I say go with the AKG system, as it will be a bit more "forgiving" as he builds up his chops.

[MattinSTL]

I know you've been here before Joe, but welcome back... man if you somehow find time to be a frequently contributing part of this forum we'll all be better off for it.

For those who don't know, Joe is about the most stand-up guy I've met. He is the person you'd want your son to grow up to be. This guy has topped out his life in several areas where the rest of us would feel a sense of accomplishment to just make it in one. Since Joe comes across so humble I feel compelled to enlighten the members (unless you don't like this, in that case sorry and I'll edit)... but the gist is Joe is like me, he really cares about audio for video and he's not afraid to put his cash where his mouth is. He's got the full Schoeps system complete with blimps, cut filters, etc... he's got a 416 and an mm-1 and I have no idea where he got those... plus all the wireless and everything else you could need... the guy is definitely into sound.

Welcome (or welcome back) Joe.

Joe makes a good point about the Oktava too... maybe I should factor that into my suggestions more. I use a graphite boom (acoustically dead) with a k-tek that's got the soft bands... so that's probably why I don't get much handling... but when a green guy is booming I hear a couple bumps... so maybe I'll start factoring that into my advice. The AKG is a much thicker and more inert construction and sounds great on top of that... it's ironic that the AKG ULS (that I got) is right back to having high handling noise... why didn't they construct the ULS like the Blue Line? I don't know.

[Joe Kras]

Thanks for the welcome back.

Matt just likes me because I provide a home for some of his gently used equipment which he sells to me at a discount and delivers to me in it's original box with all the documentation.

Somehow the board's software dumped me several months ago, and as I don't post that often, I just lurked until I got off my butt and re-registered.

Matt's one of those guys that inspires me to do better.

And I envy him his house full of equipment, and love all of his home made solutions he comes up with.

As for posting more, since most of y'all are way smarter and better than I, I subscribe to Lincoln's addage of "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt".

[Oleg 2]

http://www.shure.com/accessories/a15hp.asp
if you run octava directly to the camera input

[jbr]

Matt,

One of our continual reminders to folks about the Oktava mics is wind protection--gotta' have it.

So let's look at the competitors and see how badly they need it, in relation to the windscreens that come with the products.

Audio Technica AT-4053a (hypers) $396 ea. (B&H special pricing)
Comes with Reticulated Open-Cell Foam Windscreen

Ohhh! You can buy a WindTech Windscreen for REAL protection for $3.95 at B&H!

AKG SE300b/CK93 (hypers) $387 ea. (B&H special pricing)
It appears that this microphone does not come with a windscreen, at least at B&H.

So, what are the thoughts on BBG's for these mics, as well?

[Reno]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the advice.

Cheers,
Reno

[Kelly Olsen]

Matt,

One of our continual reminders to folks about the Oktava mics is wind protection--gotta' have it.

AKG SE300b/CK93 (hypers) $387 ea. (B&H special pricing)
It appears that this microphone does not come with a windscreen, at least at B&H.

So, what are the thoughts on BBG's for these mics, as well?

I was going to ask you this as well. I was on my way to taking Matt's (and others) greatly appreciated advice and get the the Octava for indoor boom and 4073a for outdoor shotgun, but then people started talking about the AKG SE300b/CK 93 and the other cap (98?) so you would have an indoor boom and an outdoor shotgun by just switching caps for about the same price with equal or better (subjective) quality.

But shock mount wind/screen/BBG issues are of concern. Got the solid advice that the KSSM (soft bands) with the BBG (on in doors) and windjammer (if you are booming out doors in wind) is the way to go for the Octava, but what about the the 4073a? Can you use any of these pieces for the 4073a or do you need a different shockmount, BBG and or windjammer. if so, what and how much?

If you go with the AKG SE300b/CK 93 and the other capsule (98?) what set up do you need and can one shockmount, BBG and wind protection fit both capsules. If so then would this be the way to go because you don't have to have two shockmounts BBG/windjammers set ups (if in fact you do need two completely different set ups) for the oktava/4073 two mike system.

Really appreciate all the knowledge being shared here. You guys are a fabulous resourse!

[Kelly Olsen]

http://www.shure.com/accessories/a15hp.asp
if you run octava directly to the camera input

Don't mean to be a hog here by asking two different sets of question rigt in a row but this issue of going directly into a DVX with a the Oktava has not really been discussed much (at least that I have seen). Oleg made a mention of it a little while ago, but I'd like tp pose the issue again since it was just brought up here.

If one does go directly in to camera in a sit down talking head indoor interview, is a high pass filter the thing to do? Does this hold true for a shotgun outdoor situation with the 4073a or the AGK system which I asked about above as well?

[MattinSTL]

The same shockmount will accomodate all the mics discussed. For sitdown interview with fixed boom the low-cut isn't a necessity but couldn't hurt (I never used one when the mic is fixed on a boom stand). You still need different wind-protection for all the mics. The se300b/ck93 and Oktava will use the exact same protection... and the se300b/ck98 and 4073a will use about the same protection... in both cases the mount stays the same but the BBG/Jammer is removed and a Softie (economy answer) is used.

The high-pass filter couldn't hurt, but it's mainly to help with the handling noise. I ran the Oktava directly in for the last couple years and haven't had a problem... but thumps or thuds on the cam or tripod can make it to the mic without the highpass.

[Bruce Morgan]

GjtB?txileOnTheMainStreet]very nice mikes - i didn't work adges with these ( 451+ck1,8,9)
very worm sound for the ck-1
i still have completely new foam for the 9 ( the big piramide)
some memories before the Shoepses and Sennheisers came in[/QUOTE]
:) :beer:
Thanks so much for the feedack
on the akg mic set .
I bought these from a very well known universal studios sound mixer and I know he would not steer me wrong .
I am also glad they are considered usefull in music .
For this akg mic series ,451+ck 1, 8 and 9....,
I imagine we are talking mid 1970? to mid 1980's for this akg series ?
Is that the vintage ..

Thanks Again
Bruce

[Oleg 2]

i think they came in the late 70 or early 80 . i bought my used with the nagra 4.2 from guy who immigrated from Russia in early 90 , iam almost sure he "borrowed " them from the studio there like half of the country there who borrowed everything after the perestroika:-)

[Jeremy Ordan]

This was the crux of the discussion that Yankee and I had back and forth through posts and PM's on the merits of Oktava/4073a versus SE300b/ck93/ck98... and I'll tell you what I told him. There is some benefit in having two seperate mics... since we've covered that totally I'll focus on the merits of the AKG. You get one of the best hypers (short of a Scheops) available... hypers are for interiors and the ck93 is a VERY good hyper... but you get a gun that's maybe just slightly inferior to the 4073a... and maybe NOT even inferior, but just a slightly different flavor. FROM MY EXPERIENCE ONLY I suggest the Oktava/4073a option... because I have a lot of time in with both of those mics... but I'm also a BIG fan of AKG... and since you'll be getting a really good hyper the question really comes down to what you'd rather have between the ck98 and 4073a. That is the question that I'm really not qualified to answer, but again, I'll tell you what I told Yankee... I bought the AKG ULS system based on just a few clips I heard, a little bit that I read, on-paper specs, and a gut feeling... and I've absolutely loved this mic system. At this point I've bought all the caps and accessories except for the omni cap... but I got everything else! So like I said... I am a BIG fan of AKG mics... BUT I still use my Oktavas all the time... so really I don't think you can go wrong either way. The advantages of one over the other will be matters of personal preferrence... and you probably won't even know the difference until you (or your son) gets a lot of mic'ing experience.

Sorry if that isn't a precise enough answer for you, but the fact is I don't think you can make a bad choice here... either route will get you good results.

Also if you check the places I've said to check the pricing shouldn't be much different between the two choices.


At the end of the day, I am, from music systems, to microphones, a fan of anything modular. I wanted, trust me, so badly, to love the ME series. I love things that are modular. I didn't love the ME series. I LOVE the AKG series though. Matt is right, the 4073 vs. the 98 just has different flavors. I find the 4073 to be a bit more neutral, where the 98 has a little zest. Sound is hard to describe. As I have said, I rate the 93 above the Oktava simply on the handling noise issue.

Let me say it like this, to completely rephrase: I am far from an experienced mic operator. I buy mics because I like to have the ability to strap someone I know onto a boom pole and get the sound. The CK93 makes this possible. The Oktava will require a more experienced operator.

Let me also counter that with this statement: On any future projects where I want to make an impact, I will hire someone to do my sound. Sound is an art, and I believe it is more than 60% of the overall movie experience. If it is a project to gain experience, I'm going with a friend. If it is a business project or something that I want to represent what I am capable of: hire out.

One thing I have learned from hanging around these audio threads is that we all, myself included, are looking for that mic that can give us that professional sound. In general the options are slim: Schoeps, Sennheiser, AKG, Rhode, Oktava, Audio Technica. That's about it. I could break down every specific model and say: look here are the options, here are the highs, here are the lows, and that could essentially reduce the conversation about audio (not that I consider myself anything more than a hack with audio), but at the end of the day, I think nothing is more important than an experienced operator.

Personally, now that I have this AKG system, I'm not buying any more microphones for a long time. I might invest in a lav system in the next month or so just to have it in the kit, but I have what I need. I believe a kit needs a hyper and a shotgun. A lav is nice. I'm not buying a wireless because when I need wireless, I need an operator, and any operator better be bringing his own kit.

For the price that most of us would pay to build a kit, we could hire an operator who could get us better sound than we could on our own with a kit that costs twice as much.

This is just my opinion. If you agree, great. If you don't, okay. I'm a big boy, I've said things people don't agree with in the past.

[Jeremy Ordan]

I just reread my post, and want to make something clear because I think the tone was a little off (it's late).

Since this is the 'Everything I know about Mics So Far' thread, my point was, with everything I know about mics so far, I recommend hiring someone for sound versus worrying about what mic will be best for your project. The investment vs. return is going to be incredible and well worth it.

[tyreeford]

And now, of course, there's a new Schoeps shotgun mic to add to the top shelf. About $1795 USD.

Heard it at AES/NY. Very nice. More later.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Jeremy Ordan]

Matt,

One of our continual reminders to folks about the Oktava mics is wind protection--gotta' have it.

So let's look at the competitors and see how badly they need it, in relation to the windscreens that come with the products.

Audio Technica AT-4053a (hypers) $396 ea. (B&H special pricing)
Comes with Reticulated Open-Cell Foam Windscreen

Ohhh! You can buy a WindTech Windscreen for REAL protection for $3.95 at B&H!

AKG SE300b/CK93 (hypers) $387 ea. (B&H special pricing)
It appears that this microphone does not come with a windscreen, at least at B&H.

So, what are the thoughts on BBG's for these mics, as well?


Yeah, I'm not letting this thread die... Not for the life of me.

To answer this question that seemed to have gotten lost in the answer, I can only share from my experience.

First of all, my AKG SE300b had some sort of factory defect and quit on me last night. Not really sure what the deal was, but the AKG people are awesome, and everything is going to be taken care of.

Regarding the wind protection, I used foam on my AKG and had no problems with the hyper indoors. For the shotgun, I used it raw and had some problems, but that is my fault. I would recommend a softie for the shotgun cap.

This thread should be stickied, brilliant discussion....

[mrpunch]

There is a kit on Ebay listed by 1080iAV, that I have a question about. It can be found under
AUDIO TECHNICA AT-897 + WIRELESS BOOM POLE 4 AG-DVX100A
WIRELESS BOOM POLE AND LAVALIERE KIT FOR INDIE FILMERS

I was looking at the AT897, and I like this Boom Pole as well - but my question is with the wireless kit. (Audio Technica VHF Wireless Body Pack Receiver and Transmitter)

Is using a boom w/ a wireless kit downgrading the quality of your audio, or introducing more noise than a long XLR cable would? Or is it as good or better?

I've not seen this done - although it sounds like a good idea.

[tyreeford]

You'll find better shotguns than the AT897, but yes you can do that. The problem is that the boom op needs to hear the mic, so you have to have a thingee for him/her to hear it, or just hang the receiver on them and cable to the audio inputs on the camera.

Anytime ou go wireless you are betting that nothing bad will happen. Most wireless systems are not as clear as a hardwired mic.

Regards,
Ty Ford

[Oleg 2]

this specific one cant use even as a door stopper :-)

[Jeremy Ordan]

It's a shame that Ty doesn't post here that often because his experience and knowledge are very valuable to the community.

Regarding your question, stay away from that kit. It's a lot of stuff you don't need. Any member on this board could put together a better and cheaper kit for you, but better yet, call Rush at EVS and have him piece something together for you and hook you up with the DVXUser discount.

[tyreeford]

Thanks Yank,

I do what I can.

Today was the day to confirm that my new FireStore FS-4 drive for my new XL2 is NOT working right. CRAP!!

How do I get in touch with Rush?

BTW, Schoeps just put out their first shotgun after 20 years of people asking for it. I heard it at the Audio Engineers show in NY several weeks back. $1750 Not cheap, but it will transform your audio.

Yes you do need some tools for audio. A windbreaker, maybe a furry to cover it if it's more than moderately breezy. A shotugun, a hyper, a couple of lavs, a couple of wireless, a boom, headphones, mic cables, a good snake with a headphone return to go from the mixer to the camera...oh, and of course, the mixer.

I have a list of Ty Ford Certified Gear in the back of my little Audio Bootcamp Field Guide. I also have a list of rental houses in case youcan't afford to buy but want or need the good stuff.

My short list of good, but not the absolute best grade gear would be:
Rode NTG 1 or NTG 2 shotgun: (NTG 2 runs on phantom or its own battery)
Audio Technica 4053a hyper and pop filter.
Ktek boom
Sennheiser Evolution G series wireless
Countryman EMW lavs
Sony MDR7506 headphones
Sound Devices 302 mixer (get your snake from Sound Devices while you're at it.
www.sounddevices.com)

Rycote makes expensive windbreakers, but they work really well. They also make suspension mounts for the boom. The windbreaker has one, but you'll need one for the hypercardioid.


How's that?

Regards,

TyFord

[Jeremy Ordan]

Good list man. My kit is nowhere near as developed as that, but I am actually pretty happy with how it has developed.

You can reach Rush @ 800.238.8480 or Rush@evsonline.com.

By the way, Ty, I am really shocked to see that you recommend the NTG 1 or 2 as the shotgun to pick up.

[tyreeford]

Well, my main mics are Schoeps cmc641 and Sennheiser 416, 816.

The Rodes are a good value at their price. They sound sort of like the the Sanken CS-3.
The Sanken is a good choice as well.

Ty

[Jeremy Ordan]

Ty,

It's funny, I am not a pro or even an enthusiast. I like getting mics because I think it's cool to see the different tonal qualities between the various mics and how the price of the mic reflects the performance under certain conditions. My collection (as of right now) is pretty much made up of:
Sennheiser MKH416
AKG SE300B, CK93, CK98
Audio Technica 835B
Oktava MK012

Once I got the AKG system I unloaded the 4073a, just didn't see a point in keeping it.

For lavs, what do you recommend?

[brianluce]

Yankee, I'd hate to see what mics you'd get if you decided to go pro.

[Jeremy Ordan]

No interest in going pro. I just like the different audio characteristics of mics...

You should have seen me when I was into modular synths... That's expensive

[darst]

Sorry guys, but I am bumping this back up, because of all the great information I have got out of it...

Picked up the Oktava MK012, Severe Windscreen, and SSM-1/SL SABRA-SOM SHOCK MOUNT "Speed Lock" from the sound-room.com for my indoor stuff and am still saving for the 4073A shotgun and accessories...

I am just going down the list of a piece of acceptable equipment every week or two and picked up the 7506 headphones and StarQuad cables earlier...

I just want to say thanks to everyone for laying this out here like this... It has been extremely helpful in getting a newbie like me started in audio with some very useable equipment...

Matt

[Noiz2]

Just be aware that wind protection is BAD when you don't need it. Take that word &quot;adequate&quot; very seriously! I have too often seen recordists in windless studios and rooms recording through heavy-duty windscreeens (and thereby coloring their sound unnecessarily). If you're indoors in a situation where you can, always avoid wind protection!

-Barry

I think maybe badish but not BAD. A Rycote or similar has a very light effect on the sound, even with the dead cat. Miles of foam is bad, or even BAD. You do often need something even indoors because of the odd errant draft, but I agree less is better.
SK

[MattinSTL]

I'm sure there are people who will disagree with me, but I think both BBGs and blimps are sonically transparent. I keep my Oktavas in BBGs as if that's the only way to use them.

I still can't believe that the first post of this thread is my very first post ever to DVXuser and this thread still won't die :cheesy: I hope everybody's smart enough to realize that some of my advice in this thread was spoken from a lack of experience... and please pay attention to the date of the posts from me. I still think much of this advice is very solid, but in other areas I have evolved. :beer:

[wabbit]

Watching the evolution of knowledge is nice but I think this thread needs to made more succinct if it is to be a great resource for newbies trying to learn. Let's face it, not many have the patience to shift thru 6 pages and will just repost a question that is answered within here.

Maybe some sort of abridged version that still points to this thread if someone isn't happy with just the cliff notes. :thumbsup:

Cheers

[MattinSTL]

That is a good point Wabbit. I'll breeze this and start an updated thread... of course you realize that it will still head off in various directions like all the threads of this type.

Until there is only one way to skin a cat this is just how it's going to go... but at least I can post an update of MY OWN advice! Thanks for the tip! (should have been obvious to me... don't know why I haven't done that already)

[wabbit]

Perhaps if it is a good primer, it could get stickied and then LOCKED. All comments can be directed to this thread. Keep it nice and neat.

Cheers

[wabbit]

They really should just make you a moderator Matt. Be branded with that AUDIO EXPERT title you always try to avoid. :laugh:

If Jarred or Barry is reading, is there a process for making someone mod...Matt seems a perfect admin for audio forum.

Best

[Jeremy Ordan]

They really should just make you a moderator Matt. Be branded with that AUDIO EXPERT title you always try to avoid. :laugh:

If Jarred or Barry is reading, is there a process for making someone mod...Matt seems a perfect admin for audio forum.

Best


I will echo that sentiment... Matt's saved me tons of cash in mistakes

[MattinSTL]

I don't like terms like "expert"... it implies that I don't make mistakes. I'm a lot more modest then that... and like most people, I constantly strive to do better.

I like to think of the audio forum as a group of buddies who all like sound... and we're all just sharing our experiences and having fun talking about this stuff. I would never put myself above anybody else on here... if you like mics and want to get good sound then we're no different. Keep an open ear to advice and consider things that people relay to you from experience... even if your instinct is to say, "it doesn't matter".

It's been the input from a few key people at the right moments... like little forks in the road... where I kept an open mind... that I appreciate more then anything.

There are people on this board that I can point to and honestly say, "THAT guy made me spend two thousand dollars!":grin:

I'd hate for some guy with $10K in SD gear and $6K in mics working in Hollywood to come on the board and see some punk-ass from Missouri with the title, "expert". It would make us both feel stupid.:)

[tyreeford]

Sounds like you're suggesting thinning the herd. :)


Ty Ford

[MattinSTL]

I just want to be known as a cool guy who likes sound and helping out when I can. It's a lot more fun to have friends and share experiences with them then to look at a group of people who have (sometimes unrealistic) expectations of you.

If you mean I'm suggesting thinning the heard because I want newbies to keep an open mind to doing things that they instinctively feel is unimportant... and we have a lot of 'em who come in wanting good sound but are unwilling to do anything special to get it... then I'd agree to an extent. The good thing is that it doesn't matter what people think about most of this stuff... they won't get decent sound until they proove it to themselves anyway.

[tyreeford]

You=preacher

Me=the choir

Ty Ford

[Noiz2]

So 12 pages now... This is the longest thread in history. I also keep my Oktava's in the zep all the time. I have taken them out to use on stands for a concert recording but most of the time they live in the Zep. A friend who uses Schoeps does the same. I'm not sure about that one though since the Schoeps are rather notorious for having problems with dirt and humidity. In theory you should lose a little high end and some transient response in a zep. Other than classical music recording I'm not convinced that you lose enough to worry about.
I would recommend cardioids for BG recordings rather than Hypers. Your trying to gather the surrounding sound not eliminate it, but that's probably just taste. I also have my pair at a tighter angle than most so that may negate the rationale fornot using hypers. The main reason I do it that way is so that it will fit in the Zep I have, but a side benefit is that I'm mostly recording FX and the more forward focus is useful. I have a rant that I don't think I have posted here about the futility of "accurate" stereo recording. The reason is that unless you playback exclusively on headphones anything you captured "accurately" goes to hell on playback through speakers. And with film it is going to have so many layers and junk added in that it is a totally BS concept to "accurately" record the stereo field. Record what sounds best. Use your ears not some strange formula or Styrofoam head to duplicate the ears, because in the end it doesn't matter HOW you recorded it, it matters WHAT you recorded. OK rant over and what ever way you get good recordings is gravy with me. And if your into trying to recreate the human ear as a microphone then have fun but don't fool yourself into thinking it's going to be played back and enjoyed the way you recorded it by any more than.01% of the public. Anyway that's my opinion. If M/S or ORTF or whatever sounds great that is the reason to use it, not because it achieves some mythical (and unattainable) perfection.

SK

[Kubrick71]

How is the AKG SE300b/CK93 priced at $387 through B@H???

I see it is $478 at B@H?? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=349107&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

[vidled]

Kubrick71:

B&H, as many other stores, are not allowed to place their low porice online per agreement with the vendor.

If you read the FULL webpage where that mic is listed, you will see that B&H states:

=========
Note!


Our price for this item is too low to publish on-line.

For an instant price quote please call us at xxxxxx
==========

Just call them and ask! Or call EVS if they have it.

[BillP]

Can anyone tell me if a Rycote ball gag will fit on the AKG CK93 mic?
If so, which model?

Also, what's the best fitting shockmount for this setup (for use w/ a boom)?

Thanks,

-BillP

[Kelly Olsen]

Can anyone tell me if a Rycote ball gag will fit on the AKG CK93 mic?
If so, which model?

Also, what's the best fitting shockmount for this setup (for use w/ a boom)?

Good question, because I'm trying to convince myself to spend the extra money and get the AKG CK 93 over the Oktava and if I do I'd like to know if Matt's suggections - wait - mandates - OK, OK Matt, "recommendations", (but I take them very seriously), are the same for the AKG as the Oktava. But I think Yankee has a different set up on his AKG.

[vidled]

Can anyone tell me if a Rycote ball gag will fit on the AKG CK93 mic?
If so, which model?

Check the mic's diameter, that will tell you which BBG to get. If they don't match exactly, get the BBG that is slightly smaller than the mic.

[MattinSTL]

The same one that fits the Oktava, 20mm... previously called "19/20mm". On most Oktava pages the physical specs aren't listed... or worse, they say "maximum diameter 23mm"... and that's misleading because that's the diameter of the outter most portion of the "bell"... not the main body. Your ck93 is also 20mm (but the entire length).

Regarding your mount for that mic I'm going to stick with my perennial recommendation, the K-Tek... if you have other longer mics that you often use you can get the K-SM... otherwise I'd go with the K-SSM... and for any small mic I'd specify SOFT bands.

[BillP]

So, will the Rycote 20mm ball gag work together with the K-Tek K-SM mount and the AKG CK93?
Any fitment issues?

And, what is the difference between the K-SM and the K-SSM mounts?
On B&H it says the K-SSM is designed to work with the Sanken CS-1 Mic.

Will it work with the CK93 without issues?
I can't see any specs for the K-SSM, they look very identical.

I'd hate to order it and have it not fit.

I really appreciate all of your responses.
I have to order this stuff within the next couple days for my place of work.

Thanks.


-BillP

[wabbit]

The K-tek GPS (and GPSS) works with mutliple diameter microphones (will fit both the Oktava and a Senn MKH60 @ 25mm). It costs a little more but works the same and even protects the mic from being slammed into the ceiling by a clumsy boomop. It takes a minute longer to attach the mic thru the rubber but it's not a big deal.

Cheers

[nycfilmmaker]

What a great thread. Thank you Matt for such an education
i have a tech question, could you briefly comment on what these mean and what situations will they be useful in:


•linear response
•-10 dB preattenuation and
•12-dB-per-octave 75 Hz low-cut filter
•bass cut off

will be shooting a film in APril and looking into AKG

thanks agian for the expet advise...:)

Jay

[MattinSTL]

The K-SSM or K-SM will work with the ck93. The 19/20mm BBG... same one for the Oktava will work on the ck93 as well. It's a tight fit but I can use the same BBG and K-SSM on my AKG ULS mics too... which are 21.1mm diameter versus the Oktava's 20.1mm.


1) Linear response means flat response... no peaks or dips in response from bass through high frequency. Usually a good thing, but sometimes a bass cut or treble hump is desireable.

2) -10db pre-attenuation simply means that there is a -10db pad option built into the mic. In some loud recording environments you will get a better result by reducing the mic's sensitivity. Loud room... people yelling... mic keeps blowing inputs... impossible to ride the levels... FLIP A SWITCH FOR -10db... ahhh... back under control.

3) 12db per octave low-cut filter... means there is a switch on the mic to trim off bass signals from 75hz and down. This is a very good thing. Other mics which use a -6db per octave cut are too wimpy. You will find that this switch can be used to improve results 95% of the time. Occasionally you may want ALL the bass information from a recording, but generally speaking you want a mic to get bass down to about 75hz and nothing lower anyway... most of the time anything below that is just thumps, thuds, and other unwanted handling noise.

4) Bass cut off is the same as above.


To sum it up I have very mixed feelings about the ck93... it incorporates some very nice features in addition to it's modularity... but I think the Oktava is as nice (or nicer) sounding mic overall... and I like the 4073a for shotgun better then the ck98... which is the shotgun cap for that line. If you are ONLY getting the AKG for the ck93 and not to get other caps from that line... then I think it's better to consider the other alternatives first.

Now if you have some big bucks to blow and want to get into the AKG ULS line I'll probably change my tune.

I just did some new recordings today (03/05/06) and I'm going to post some of them shortly... (thanks for your help Joe... I'm lucky to have you in STL). Unfortunately I didn't have a 4073a in the mix this time... but pretty soon I'll have updated all the recordings on my site to conveniently small and clean MP3s... with WAV files available upon request.

[Kelly Olsen]

If you are ONLY getting the AKG for the ck93 and not to get other caps from that line... then I think it's better to consider the other alternatives first.


Here is the thing. There seems to be a gradual escalating level of shotguns (the Shotgun Shoot Out thread really does a great job of showing this) but in the hypers it seems like the degrees of choices are limited in levels of quality and cost.

The Oktava at around $175, then? Is the only real next choice the AKG SE 300B and CK93 at $400.00? Then Sanken at $700-800?

[MattinSTL]

There are fewer hypers running in the mix, but there are other options. I would put them in this order:

Oktava mk012a w/ hyper $165 (coupon code DV at sound-room)
AT-4053a $395 (b&h)
SE-300b ck93 $370 (should be around this $ from RVA)
C480b ck63 $500-$600 (I don't remember exactly... but RVA was best $)
Mkh50 $1330 (b&h)
CMC6 Mk41 $1475 (b&h)

It would go something approximately like that. I don't know anything about a Sanken hyper... don't be confused about the CS-1. That's a nice mic... but my one criticism of it is that it is neither one thing, nor the other. A good hyper will outperform it most of the time indoors and a good shotgun will outperform it most of the time outdoors. If you can only get ONE mic and know for a fact that you will always only have one mic then it's a great choice... but for the same cash outlay you can get a 4073a and an Oktava and be better prepared for indoors and outdoors both.

[Kelly Olsen]

SE-300b ck93 $370 (should be around this $ from RVA).

RVA is $420.00 and B&H is $390.00 for the AKG hyper but I think that the most cost effective move for me after all the advice is the Octava for indoor boom and the Rode NTG 2 for outdoor shotgun.

I just got a little spooked by the "handling noise issue" of the Oktava. I'm hoping that the handling noise is dealt with by the suggested mount and wind protection.

[nycfilmmaker]

Thanks Matt. Now I'm clear on those features.

I was thinking of the akg with the ck98 and the oktava MK012 for interiors.
But since you're preferring the 4073 over the ck98, i'll rethink this.

What's Important to us is having great rejection (off axis)

why is this? does it capture less ambient noise? does the human voice sound more natural?
May than go with the Sanken CS-3E (big maybe, if my budget changes next week). what is your opinion on this one. They say the rear and side rejection is so good that you could have the mic under the actor and it won't record the foot steps



big help
thanks
Jay

[dustino]

RVA is $420.00 and B&H is $390.00 for the AKG hyper

At risk of splitting hairs here, I got a $420.00 quote from RVA a couple of weeks ago, but that was definitely canadian $ (if your quote was US $, then the price has definitely increased in the past couple weeks). The exchange rate that day made the cost $365 in US funds. That said, I went with the Oktava and am really happy with it.

[MattinSTL]

Yeah that was around the price I was quoted a couple years back dustino... and they were about $300 cheaper on the 480b/ck63... If it were me I'd still give a quick check with RVA and be sure the price you get is either in Canadian or US funds.

And Jay... with some mics you want side and rear rejection and others you do not. With a shotgun you definitely DO want the side and rear rejection. With the longer reach of a shotgun you will capture natural sounds that you may not want emphasize... it's noisy outside... and the more control you have in seperating your actors from the neighbor's barking dog the better off your location sound will be for it. Regarding mic pickup patterns... it's really about having an easily controlled pattern moreso then outright rejection... but that's a big can of worms to open (and it's already discussed somewhere in here).

Mics are valuable for two reasons: accurately capturing the sound that you do want and effectively ignoring the sounds that you don't want... both of those traits are a function of various specs... but mostly pattern.

If you get the opportunity for a CS3e and can afford it I'd say that's a really good choice.

[Kelly Olsen]

At risk of splitting hairs here, I got a $420.00 quote from RVA a couple of weeks ago, but that was definitely canadian $ (if your quote was US $, then the price has definitely increased in the past couple weeks). The exchange rate that day made the cost $365 in US funds. That said, I went with the Oktava and am really happy with it.

At the risk of splitting hairs on a dead horse that I have been beating, RVA is asking $420.00 U.S. Dollars for the AKG 300 and CK93. They don't seem to care about any currency exchange. I asked them in an e-mail about the currency issue and told them that they were $30 higher than B&H and the US dollar was stronger so I didn't understand how they could be charging more and I got a nice e-mail back saying "thanks for giving them a call" and that was it. No explanation or counter offer or price match or anything.

So lets give up on the US dollar thing making things cheaper in Canada.

[k2director]

Man, this thread has been incredibly helpful, thanks much to all those who have put such effort into it! One question: I like the idea of the AKG's modular system, and also the fact that peple have described it as a little more forgiving when it comes to handling noise, etc.
I'm pretty new to audio and just want a straightforward system that I can learn on, without too much complexity. Also, I will be a one man band for doing documentary interviews, and capturing subjects in their environment (offices, outdoors, etc.), so I'm hoping for something that can be camera-mounted.
As I said, I'm really leaning towards the AKG, but wanted to know if there's any problem mounting these mics on my HVX200, since I will be a one man band most of the time.
Any help appreciated, thanks much!

[Robert Eldon]

This thread has been extremely helpful. I need some clarification on a couple of things. The term 'modular' is mentioned a few times. Does this mean that the microphone system consists of an output module and then the 'caps' are connected to it? So, you can get different 'caps' (appreviation for capsule?) for the required audio situation?

If this is true, can someone itemize a few of the recently discussed 'modular' systems and the ones that are not?

This forum is like an on-line education. It should be called 'DVXUser University'.

[Jeremy Ordan]

This thread has been extremely helpful. I need some clarification on a couple of things. The term 'modular' is mentioned a few times. Does this mean that the microphone system consists of an output module and then the 'caps' are connected to it? So, you can get different 'caps' (appreviation for capsule?) for the required audio situation?


Yes. Modular refers to a system that normally includes a power unit or preamplification unit coupled with a variety of capsules that can be added later for different shooting situations.

The most popular modular system is the Sennheiser ME/K6 series, although most sound fans uniformly agree that the quality is garbage. The ME series includes the K6 powering unit, ME66 shot shotgun, ME64 similar to a hyper cardiod cap but closer to a cardiod unit, 67 long barrel shotgun cap.

There are other units like the Blueline from AKG and the ULS from AKG. Shoeps & Sanken also offer modular type set ups.

Whether modular is right for you is a personal preference.

-Jeremy

[Robert Eldon]

O.K. It's all making a lot more sense now. Thank you Jeremy.

[Matt Grunau]

I still wish someone could make this into a .pdf. And Yankees too.


:badputer:

[Jeremy Ordan]

This is my favorite thread on DVXUser. The only thing that could make it better is if Rob Zombie directed it or if we talked about Snakes on a Plane in it (not that Matt didn't do a great job on the thread)

Jeremy

[MattinSTL]

The problem is that it's a collection of stories about experiences and I'd like to think that the audio forum is a science class rather then creative writing.

I'd be embarrassed if this thread became a sticky.

I need to rewrite it into a concise composition of ideas... but I haven't had much interest in doing that since you other guys have really stepped up in that department.

I am ego-less... I don't want an un-earned sticky honor. If I felt the need I'd put something really great together... but like I said... you guys are doing great.

[Jeremy Ordan]

You're too humble, this is the constantly evolving thread that can really teach anyone the ins and outs of audio. I think in another year this could be a novel though :)

Jeremy

[Joe Kras]

I think in another year this could be a novel though

If Rapier adds more surreptitiously obtained clips of his wife, it'll be long enough for a trilogy!:)

[Jeremy Ordan]

it'll be long enough for a trilogy!:)

Are we still talking about the thread? OK, don't want this closed and locked...

There is this awesome DVD called light it right from vasst.com. I think that Matt should do a DVD called 'Sound Off' or something, just with the info from this thread.

-Jeremy

[Matt Grunau]

Are we still talking about the thread? OK, don't want this closed and locked...

There is this awesome DVD called light it right from vasst.com. I think that Matt should do a DVD called 'Sound Off' or something, just with the info from this thread.

-Jeremy


I agree. Even IF the camera work was not as well as some, but you know damn well the sound will be killer. And as usual, I will gladly host tht footage.

Matt, you are being far too modest. Your posts here have helped hundreds, maybe thousands of people (as you know from a certain PM). Make a sticky or pdf, this is great stuff man!

Yankee, same goes out to you too. the both of you have contributed a crap ton of info. If it could all be put together, man, you dudes would look like celebritites.

Yeah, celebrities. Kinda like me after the wife thing that has somehow made it even into this thread. Hee hee hee.

[newtodvx100a]

I purchased the ME66 from recommendations on this site and a friend of mine. I have come to the same conclusion as Matt regarding chaseing the recording levels on the ME66. I don't have the cash to change right now but will in the future. Thank you for this post.

[MattinSTL]

You could probably reel that me66 in a bit with an attenuation circuit... either the Shure adapter... one of the "MAX" adapters from Markertek... or I can do an attenuation cable for you.

-15db would help you out a whole lot... on pro broadcast cams there is an internal gain setting of -35... the DVX only goes down to -50... subtract 15 and what do you get? A controllable level for a mic who's high sensitivity was needed years ago... but is a problem on the DVX. Bottom line... if you have to live with that mic for a while an attenuator will improve the relationship.

[Robert Eldon]

Matt,

Can you explain what an attenuation circuit will do and how it improves the audio?

Can a small cable (as we have PM'd) with an attenuation circuit be used in line with a longer cable (25')?

Thanks.

[MattinSTL]

Yes it can.

An attenuation cable will reduce a mic's hot output. It is a circuit of resistors designed to present a manageable load to the input.

I can't think of a good analogy, but it's like stuffing a sock in your friend's mouth because he can't stop screaming all the time... only this sock is magical in that you still hear him just as CLEARLY... but his blurting remarks are coming through at a level that's more comfortable to your ears.

I like to think of an me66 as an annoying friend that needs a little control until you can replace him with a better friend.

Man I need to switch to decaf.

A mixer provides supreme control over any mic through it's adjustable gain over a tremendous range... unfortunately the DVX isn't quite as versatile... within the DVX you have a choice of two gain settings (-50 and -60) and those are trimmed via the pots (dials) on the side of the cam. For mics such as the me66 and 4073a the -50db setting and use of the dials still results in a touchy performance with mics like the me66 and 4073a (or any super-hot mic).

If you know anything about engines/cars/motorcycles... then think of a vehicle with high horsepower versus high torque... Torque is user friendly and horsepower isn't... the me66 and 4073a are very high horsepower mics which need to be controlled to be usable... unless you add something to do this you keep spinning out when you needed traction.

Wow... another stupid anology.

Don't make me go into the difference between a donkey and an orange.

[Robert Eldon]

I can't think of a good analogy, but it's like stuffing a sock in your friend's mouth because he can't stop screaming all the time... only this sock is magical in that you still hear him just as CLEARLY... but his blurting remarks are coming through at a level that's more comfortable to your ears.

O.K. Got it! The 'CLEARLY' part is the key for me. Thanks for the explanation. Would you need an attenuation cable if you're going through a mixer?

Also, could you explain the difference between a donkey and ...

[MattinSTL]

O.K. Got it! The 'CLEARLY' part is the key for me. Thanks for the explanation. Would you need an attenuation cable if you're going through a mixer?

Also, could you explain the difference between a donkey and ...

I don't want to complicate the issue... you would NEVER need an attenuation cable from the mic to mixer no matter how hot the mic is... but professional mixers typically output a signal that is +4 dbu. This is not a problem for professional audio components which are happy to SEE the +4dbu signal... but prosumer electronics (such as the DVX) are calibrated for -10dbu... so you may STILL need an attenuation cable for the feed from mixer to cam! With more expensive mixers such as the Shure FP33 or Sound Devices 302... you get a variable output from the mixer... so you can dial it back w/o the use of an attenuation cable.

Is this clearing up any for you?

[Oleg 2]

not exactly , there are some mixers which dont have attenuation on their preamps , or dont have enouth , so if you work whith one like that you will need one ,bat the majority can handle very loud signals , if you record shooting from close range with dynamic mic you alwais can go directly to line ins ( that about 40-50 db attenuation )

[Robert Eldon]

Clear. Thank you.

[newtodvx100a]

Matt thanks for the great information. I wanted a mixer but everyone said it would add too much noise. This attenuator sounds like a needed addition to my gear. I have to confess I have to use the ME66 indoors also until I get another mic. :-(

[Joe Kras]

I wanted a mixer but everyone said it would add too much noise.

Now this statement just confuses the heck out of me.

Using a mixer bypasses the preamps in your camera (by using the mixer's preamps).
Most decent mixers have much better preamps then your camera mixer.

Therefore you end up with LESS noise by using a mixer, not more.

Just my $.02

[timapter]

yeah, thats true joe. unless the mixer is a behringer. naturally, as long as the mixers pre amps and circuits are better than the cameras, you get better sound. if the mixer cost 2c, then the sound will be worse.

the dvx's preamps arent great, but theyre not actually that bad compared to some other camcorders i could mention...

[MattinSTL]

I don't want to do the forum a disservice... but the mixer statement was one that I was just going to let go. I gotta' agree with Joe on that one... you'd have to try pretty hard to get a mixer with a worse gain stage then the DVX... sure the DVX is GREAT for a cam... but a mixer with worse mic-pre performance then that should be hard to find.

Every now and then an idea gets tossed onto one of these threads and it sounds as if it's coming from a lack of experience rather then a lack of knowledge... and trust me I would know all about this! I've said a lot of stuff early on which was later modified after some much needed experience! When I see stuff like that I'm torn between correcting the person and being seen as arrogant (a label that I hate, because I'm anything but)... or just putting the facts out there again for the hundredth time. Lately when I get that feeling I figure somebody else can knock that pin over...

I'm a big fan of Yankee's thread style... it gets to the point a lot quicker then this one did... but if you read these threads with a cup of coffee I'll bet you'd be surprised at how much you can pick up through everyone else's journey.

Nobody resisted a mixer more then I did... that was the LAST thing I wanted to buy! I'm ashamed of how I argued with some guys about the value of one... because I couldn't imagine ever being without a mixer again. Do you NEED a mixer to get acceptable audio? NO! Will a decent mixer improve your audio even if you only use it in the most basic function? YES! Can a person get equal results with the DVX only versus adding the COMPETENT use of a decent mixer? NO! A half-way decent mixer in capable hands will yield EASILY superior audio to simply recording direct to the camera. After that, when you look at all the other benefits, such as actually MIXING and riding levels... plus full audio awareness apart from the camera... jeez... as I said, I can't imagine being without one.

[newtodvx100a]

This was what Rush said @ EVS. I was inquiring about mixers and couldn't afford much, maybe $250. He said the DVX has a very low noise amp and anything in between would add noise unless I got in to the high end mixers. Of course I would by everything high end if I could. I was very proud just to get my hands on the G2 wireless, my ME66 with shockmount, wind screen and carbon fiber boom pole. But Wow, I need more money< :-). I still would like a mixer.

[Rush]

The higher end mixers have clean preamps. The lower end ones don't have a decent one, if any. Soundevices, is the best from what I have seen. Been on more Hollywood sets in the past 2 months than in my whole life, and every audio guy had Soundevices. It was crazy, almost cultish, but every one of them told me they sold whatever old mixer they had to get the sound devices after they heard the recordings.
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/index.html
They are very pricey, but worth it.

[newtodvx100a]

Rush, as always you contine to help us wanna bees, (speaking for my self only). I only do weddings but I would like great sound. I thank every one here who gives us insite. I know the thousand dollars I spent on sound equipment ect. is not the tops but I am shooting to be the best I can be, with everyones help. Thanks again.

[MattinSTL]

The DVX has MORE THEN GOOD ENOUGH SOUND for weddings. Again, sound is subjective... but there isn't anybody who's gonna' be upset with the DVX audio performance on a $2K or under wedding video. If you use your mics properly and get them close enough then your clients will be thrilled.

Once you're ready for your first mixer you can look for a used Mixpre or FP24... the fp24 is a Shure mixer, but Sound Devices made it... and it's obvious when you see them. Getting a used one takes some patience, but they pop up at least a couple times per month on ebay.

http://www.dvshop.ca/audio/images/shurefp24.jpg

http://www.posthorn.com/Images/Sounddev/Sounddev_mixpre.jpg

You should be able to get a used one for some price between $350 and $450... up to $500 if "mint"... but the $350 one will still last you a lifetime if you want it to (although at that price it will look used).

[newtodvx100a]

My last wedding the audio was good except when the singers hit some very Hi loud notes my audio clipped and sounded lousy. I was quickly trying to adjust the small recessed dials on the DVX and just didn't get it. I was thinking the mixer would be a great help in this.

[Charli]

I wasn't sure about the premix. I found a good price at a uh, online site, not
sure if it's reputable, but uh, found it just the same:

http://www.djmart.com/shure-fp24-amplifier.html

Anyone know of a good, practical snake to purchase for this premix? I'd like to see a pic, compare prices
with other snakes, just not sure where to start.

Thanks for the help.

Charli

[Jeremy Ordan]

Anyone know of a good, practical snake to purchase for this premix? I'd like to see a pic, compare prices
with other snakes, just not sure where to start.

Thanks for the help.

Charli

Contact MattinSTL for things like that. Best cables I've ever used.

-Jeremy

[MattinSTL]

Charli... I don't wanna' do snakes... but I'll do your XLR cables.

Snakes are high $ and the cable is too high $ to stock it... I can turn around most XLR cables in a day though... with the exception of a couple people recently that caught me at the end of a box of connectors.

I've been charging people the same price as Markertek gets for their generic Star Quad cables... I'm doing mine in Musilux, which is half the impedence, resistance, capacitance of Star Quad... and it's got a 100% flexible shield... but there are those who may still prefer SQ... and that's fine. Selling these at Markertek prices isn't making me any money... the option is just there for those who want it. A cable from me will come at the true length of cable between connectors (unless otherwise specified) so that a 10' cable is 10' of cable between connectors... and it's expertly soldered with silver... and then terminated with the latest Neutrik XLRs... just check Markertek prices and you have mine. Cables under 5' add $1... the rest are matched. Black/Gold connectors add $1.25 per end... color coded ends add $1.50 per cable. The cable itself can be black or blue Musilux. I've never had a problem with any electrical interference and I doubt anybody else will either, but that is the reason given for SQ configurations... Musilux handles potential RFI/EMI with a 100% shield... if this is a concern for you then get SQ. If you check Markertek's "digital" XLR cables... which sell for between $12-$20 MORE then their generic SQ cables you will see that they use a higher end Canare cable which is NOT SQ, but they use it for it's improved specs... which happen to be pretty damn close to the specs on Musilux... and even though the Musilux costs me 35% more then SQ I'm still selling at Markertek generic SQ prices. At this time I'd prefer to just do XLR cables though... I don't have too much time to get into a wider variety then that just yet. (stocking various connectors, etc)

[mcgeedigital]

The higher end mixers have clean preamps. The lower end ones don't have a decent one, if any. Soundevices, is the best from what I have seen. Been on more Hollywood sets in the past 2 months than in my whole life, and every audio guy had Soundevices. It was crazy, almost cultish, but every one of them told me they sold whatever old mixer they had to get the sound devices after they heard the recordings.
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/index.html
They are very pricey, but worth it.

Ditto,
I bought the SD 302 mixer, having plenty of experience w/the Shure FP-33.....I will never go back! :)

[Charli]

Matt - I sent you a pm about the cables the other day. Let me know total
price and I can send you paypal money.

Charli

[newtodvx100a]

I'm sold on the 302 in the future. I imagine a snake is a mulitple cable setup or what? "This post is great info.


I just found out what a snake is on another post. Thanks for your help with mixers mics.

[MattinSTL]

This can be a snake:

http://www.sajelect.com/images/Cables/mqbac_mix_s.jpg

Or this can be a snake:

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/store/hosa/pic/XRM800.jpg

It's a combination of cables worked into one, fat "snake-like" cable.

[newtodvx100a]

I have a ways to go with all this new stuff. :-) You might get a laugh out of this one. I used my new boom pole last year with my me66 and the wireless transmitter attached to mic a church event at easter. Been wondering what hardware I would need to cable it and be able to monitor while booming. This information is great. Now I just need the money, :-). Have to add stuff alittle at a time. But I have come along way already.

[mystico]

I keepo hearing bad things about the Sennheiser ME66/K6 combo for use with the DVX. Got it. However, would that mic work with the DVC60? I'm shopping for mics and the DVC is actually the one I need to mic first.

[Jeremy Ordan]

I keepo hearing bad things about the Sennheiser ME66/K6 combo for use with the DVX. Got it. However, would that mic work with the DVC60? I'm shopping for mics and the DVC is actually the one I need to mic first.

If you look back five or six years the ME66 was a great mic at a great price. Now when you look at the competition and the improvement in audio quality the ME66 is an overpriced microphone that does not perform as well as some cheaper solutions.

In a straight forward A/B test we ran about six months ago with an ME66 and a Rode NTG1 the Rode sounded better, the levels work better with Panasonic circuitry, and most importantly, it is almost half the price.

If the ME66 was selling at $250 for the complete ME66/K6 kit then it would be more of a contender, but at $400+ it is not a viable solution for any professional sound use. Furthermore, the actual sound of the ME66 is very thin and just not pleasing to the ear. I recommend doing a search through some of the various threads that list different microphone kits because for under $100 more than the ME66 you can get the AT4073a which has become my personal go to shotgun microphone.

Then again, this is Matt's 'Everything I know about mics so far' thread, so maybe he should chime in on this.

-Jeremy

[NM_film_maker]

A lot of good info coming from this thread.

ONE QUESTION.

How can i purchase XLR cables from MattinSTL

[Jeremy Ordan]

A lot of good info coming from this thread.

ONE QUESTION.

How can i purchase XLR cables from MattinSTL

PM him...

-Jeremy

[japhy]

Thanks so much for the help guys...THIS SITE IS GREAT.... I'm going with the AT 4073 and the Oktava mk012, with Rycote BBG + Jammer and K-Tek KSSM with soft bands...Quick question, out of curiosity, MattinSTL and The Yankee what editing software do you use, FCP or Vegas or....and if you are running through a mixer, does it really matter which editing software you use, or is one more compatable with the other etc.....I just finished reading all 18 pages and will now go look for thread on mixers, but was still curious as to editing software you two use....

Thanks again guys, I'll buy you a beer if I'm ever in your neck of the woods...

Steve

[timapter]

it depends on what you're doing.. those are image editors, so Im not sure I get your question really. Im sure jeremy will chime in.

Tim

[Jeremy Ordan]

Im sure jeremy will chime in.

Tim

Tim knows me too well...

I use Vegas but it doesn't matter what program you are using when it comes to audio. I like Vegas because it integrates perfectly with SoundForge which I have used since Ver.1.0. As Tim said, Vegas is an image editor, but it has some solid audio control, but ultimately any editor will work with sound...

If you're looking for the best / most professional sound editor system then that is a full on TDM Protool System, but Vegas or any other editor will yield acceptable results.

I don't use FCP because I don't have a mac anymore and when I did my Mac wouldn't run FCP.

-Jeremy

[timapter]

Vegas is VERY good for audio work, probably the most "sound DAW crossover" friendly.

[pixelated]

Guys, I've poured over this thread for the last week and boy what a ride! What a fabulous group. As Yankee said (and he's included - "you've saved me thousands"). How does one ever say thanks to such a selfless group of pros. This absolutely positively needs to be sticky'd.

After digesting all, I'm out pursuing a blue line 93/98 setup with K-tek ssm and Rykote bbg & windjammer. I'd love to go with the Oktava's but I'll be using all green crews (high school kids) and the noise issue (thanks wabbit & Joe) scares me badly. The set's gonna have to cover a wide range of venues, from stage to run -n-gun. Since a 416's out of range. . . . My only hesitation at this point is what Yankee hasn't said - he loved his AKG's, then in post #94 it had a glitch, now he's back to Octava & AT4073a - was there a problem - what changed your mind????

I'm starting from zero so I'm hoping MattinSTL will do me some Musilux cables, I'll be feeding a FX1, so I'm looking for suggestions on dealing with phantom power and adapters 'till I can afford a Mixpre. (Gad, I want it all - NOW! Charli - did your dimart deal work out???). Any & all suggestions, comments, razberrys, deal sites & cautions appreciated.

Sorry for the ramble, a lot of this probably should have been pm'd, but I figured others would want to know. Thanks again !!!!

[Charli]

I had a reputable on-line company MATCH the price, so I did not buy this at djmart, I bought it at EVS for $569 - yes, it was a steal of a price, I caught them on a good day, so it worked for me. It's always a good idea to ask good companies if they can go lower when you find a low price.

I have an Oktava bello nero and just got my rebate money to buy the 4073a, already bought the softie for it. I'm going to buy one more mic after that and then I'm done, for now.

I have a truckload of cables still to buy.

Charli

[japhy]

For those who may look at last page to see if consensus has been developed (like I did), I read this whole thread, did a lot of research and shopped around a lot…and this is what I went with and paid. I still have a couple of questions towards bottom of post, and certainly would like others thoughts in general.

This is slightly different line-up than recommended by others….

AT 4073A shotgun mic : $481 from Roscar http://www.dvwonline.com/ $70 cheaper than others. They did have to get it direct from AT, so it will take a little longer to get but....

Sony 7056 headphones: $87 from roscar....$12 cheaper than other places

AT 8415 Boom Pool shock mount: $47 from Roscar: Couple of bucks cheaper than other places

Total shipping for above was $12

Oktava mk012 Indoor Mic: soundroom http://sound-room.com/customer/home.php
$163.35 for mic, $173.10 with shipping, make sure to ask for 5% DVXuser discount.

K-TEK KE-89 7'6" BOOM POLE: 169.95 B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
They have it for $179.95 but will match evsonline if you ask.

Rycote 22mm BBG (baby ball gag) for noise reduction : $124.95 from B&H

Rycote 12cm Softie for shotgun (medium ) for noise reduction: B&H $109.95

Shipping for above was $8……And overall I think EVSonline would have matched it……

Total Costs: $1,223

Still saving for: (Windjammer for AT4073a) $125

Total cost would be $1,350



Other issues and questions:

I did not buy a shock mount for my camera, the guy at EVS actually said it may give more of a shadow than the mic mount on the side of the camera, and overall said I should put it towards a universal boom pole shock mount. The only thing I think I remember hearing is that the shotgun mic may pick up more camera noises by just using the camera mount rather than the shock mount but the EVS guy said that wouldn’t really be the case. Can someone speak to this? Overall, since I am on limited budget, this just got bumped down the priority list…and in fact, if I were to spend $130 on noise reduction issues, I would spend it on the windjammer (extra protection above and beyond BBG-Baby Ball Gag for those like me, who were wondering what all this meant) rather than an on camera shockmount….thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that the windjammer would offset noise to the same degree as shock mount indoors and then you also get benefit of product you can use outdoors in windy conditions (I plan on doing lots of interviews outdoors, and a windjammer will be my next purchase)

I went with the K-Teck KE-89 instead of the 1100 because it was cheaper and should still fit my needs.

I did not buy a windjammer for the Octava mic because it is an indoor mic, and although everyon MUST/SHOULD use a BBG at all times with it, since it is indoors, I figured I would save my money to buy the windjammer for the AT4073a.

I also did not buy the shure hi pass filter…From what I understand, the mics will have a hi pass filter option on them, and while I am sure the pass filter would be even better, but I am saving the money I would have spent for a mixer.

EVS and B&H seem to often match each other and seem to carry everything…while discount video warehouse had smoking deals on the many things they do carry.

[Kelly Olsen]

The Lord and Master, Matt ( and I mean that in the truest sense because I think he is great with sharing his knowledge and is a hell of a nice guy) has drilled into us the K-Tek SSM with soft bands for a shock mount but because of limited budet and a little more isolation and flexibility for use I bought the Rode shock mount.

It also has a built in hot shoe so you can put on camera if needed or boom pole and I got a great deal on it from Location Sound when I bought my BBG. The Rode was $35.

[Joe Kras]

If you're already getting an AT8415 shockmount, why not get a hotshoe adaptor (B and H site currently down, found this link at Trew):

http://www.trewaudio.com/catalog/items/item788.htm

$14 on that site (I think I paid less at B and H). Ask the place you're getting the 8415 from if they have one (may not be listed online).

note: I love Trew. They give great service. But since you're looking at multi-sourcing for lowest price, thought I'd mention B an H.

[RaySigmond]

One thing that was not covered in this thread is PZM Microphones. I would like to know the pros and cons of using a PZM and what are the best ones (Crown Audio Series, Shure AMS-22)

[timapter]

Aaah the PZM. Nifty mic's, but quite specialist in where you can effectively use them. I'll start it off by mentioning the Sanken CUB-01 which everyone will tell you is a SUPER PZM in the lower cost ranges that is amazing when it comes to mic'ing a car up. :)

[RaySigmond]

Yea, I am looking at the whole range of them on B&H here. Not that I have an imediate need for one, just thought it would be cool to cover them in this thread as well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=breadCrumb&A=search&Q=&ci=8546

[wabbit]

Cub01 hands down...plus it can use the same power supply as the COS11 so you can save about $100 just getting it wired for your Lectros (not sure if you can do that with the G2).

Cheers

[timapter]

i think you can, but im not sure..

[Sewellyboy]

If you didn't have a sound guy, would it be a complete waste to the Oktava, or 4073A on camera, or is that even possible?

[EditSuite3]

So if I was a one man crew for a wedding and i had a boom mic for secondary sound and a Lavalier mic to wire the Groom....would the Oktava mk012 Indoor Mic do good for the camera mounted mic and a Lecto M150 for the wireless mic. Will this do the job for an alright sound for 1 man crew? Plus i need the best bang for the buck. If someone can fill me in on this that would be great
Thanks

[imageonepictures]

Hey,

I hear that $50.00 mic is barely Radio Shack quality.

[wabbit]

No argument here :)

[newtodvx100a]

I recently have been recording our chuch services. It is a small church without a mixer. Ther are three to four mics up front with drums, piano and a sax. I have been using the on camera mic and my me66. I am looking at a Peavy m1 or m2 large studio cardioid mic. I tried them out at our local music store and it sounded great. Does anyone use studio mics?

[timapter]

not really much room for these mics on set, but ive heard stories of big hollywood gus using u87's with great results. personally, too scared to take my u87 out the house.. i like that thing too much. :)

[newtodvx100a]

I have been reading about mics and see statements about this mic or that mic is good with hi pressure or hi decibls. We have a very large range of volume and when it gets loud the distortion comes in, even with the levels turned down. The manager at the local music store suggested a compressor? He said it is a blessing and a curse all in one. It sounds like it will compress the levels if adjusted right (that being the hard part) and keep the distortion down. I'm thinking the studio mic might handle the pressure level better.

[timapter]

no, it will handle it worse. what are you recording?

usually, condensers, and particularly large diaphragm condensers, are most sensitive to pressure. a smaller diaphragm picks up less movement, hence is less sensitive and less accurate. attenuation pads on the mad can lower input stage levels and stop the actual MICROPHONE from distorting (this is what is happening to you).. the next step down are dynamic microphones that are typically the least sensitive and also least detailed - they can be perfect for extreme high noise level recording situations.

cheers.

[newtodvx100a]

I purchased the Pro M2 studio mic and the Mackie 1402 mixer to go with my DVX100a. In testing it sounds good and can handle up to 145 spl. I havn't received the mixer yet but the DVX powers up the Peavey just fine. I am trying to captuer good audio in a small church enviroment.

[newtodvx100a]

timapter here is what I recorded. This was a visiting pastor and his wife from Africa. I'm very unhappy with the sound quality.

http://e-motionsmedia.com/Videos/conference.mov



no, it will handle it worse. what are you recording?

usually, condensers, and particularly large diaphragm condensers, are most sensitive to pressure. a smaller diaphragm picks up less movement, hence is less sensitive and less accurate. attenuation pads on the mad can lower input stage levels and stop the actual MICROPHONE from distorting (this is what is happening to you).. the next step down are dynamic microphones that are typically the least sensitive and also least detailed - they can be perfect for extreme high noise level recording situations.

cheers.

[William Lewis]

Many of you don't need this information, so please feel free to read or ignore this... but I've come a long way with the audio end of my productions in the last 2 years... here's what I know so far:...

Well I'm one of the one's who DO need this information and so far I have found it VERY helpful.. so thanks MattinSTL

NOW.. moving right along..

I have some questions

Given that I'm approaching film from a ""WHAT (muthaf*ing) BUDGET???"" (the next demeaning step down following "NO BUDGET") and dealing with the emotional fallout of that.. I get this. What I'm looking for now is a simple guide on how to use the equipment that has been suggested on this thread - for example:

1) I gather that an oktava hyper is best suited for indoor use but...
a) what is the maximum distance to speaker (or actor in this case)?
b) does the oktava even use phantom power???
c) when is it best to use phantom power?
d) does phantom power EXTEND the viable range of a mic?

come to think of it.. what the phruck IS PHANTOM POWER? and when do you need it? when would you not use phantom power?

2) Lets say I could get hold of an at4073a?
a) when do you use a shotgun mic?
b) why would you use an at4073a over an oktava outdoors/indoors?
c) what is a SHOTGUN mic for?
d) what is the max functional distance of a shotgun? (from what Ive read so far about 4')
e) can a shotgun be used for foley? if not which mike is best suited to foley? (footsteps, clothes rustling, car tires, etc..)

3) portable field digital recorders
a) will a zoom h4 get the job done? Sure I'd like a sound devices 722 but I don't see that happening right away...

... and here's another thing. While I have no intention of being a 'sound guy' I do want to know all I can about sound and how to achieve first-rate sound - after all, my intention is to make films. I can say this about sound guys on the movies I worked on so far (I act occasionally) they are without exception (so far) the nicest people on set PERIOD. I have found out (the hard way): the people you want to steer clear of on set sequentially are: directors and asst. directors (most directors are going to hell - except me of course) and almost all actors and most of the crew... producers ironically can be ok people.

Thanks to all who have contributed.. again, thanks MattinSTL

oh I almost forgot.. does anybody know where I can dload "VOICE" sample/s of the oktava and at4073a? Can someone send me some samples? just a thought. NO INSTRUMENT SAMPLES PLEASE ONLY VOICE - It irritates me beyond comprehension to hear people sampling mics using instruments or singing! AHHHHHHHH!!! I mean for * sakes, when I meet a person on the street 9.99 times out of 10 they aren't singing - so why sample a mic with instruments or singing - i just dont get it?

[Alan H. Chang]

I'm just going to answer one question.

WHEN do you need phantom power?
Q:) WHEN do you need lights in your house?

You need phantom power when you need a condensor microphone to work and pick up sound.
A:)You need electricity to power your lights in your house to see in the dark.

[Steve House]

....
oh I almost forgot.. does anybody know where I can dload "VOICE" sample/s of the oktava and at4073a? Can someone send me some samples? just a thought. NO INSTRUMENT SAMPLES PLEASE ONLY VOICE - It irritates me beyond comprehension to hear people sampling mics using instruments or singing! AHHHHHHHH!!! I mean for * sakes, when I meet a person on the street 9.99 times out of 10 they aren't singing - so why sample a mic with instruments or singing - i just dont get it?

Check out Dan Brockett's outstanding review at http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

Hypercardioid mics, of which the Oktava, AT4053a, and Neumann KM150 are examples, have an optimum working range between 6" and 24" from the speaker's mouth. Short shotguns such as the Rode NTG1 & 2, AT4073a, or Sennheiser MKH416 are best when used from 2' to 4' from the talent, long guns such as the Neumann KMR82i or Sennheiser MKH70 sound their best from 4' out to 8' or a little more. For all types, getting closer than the minimum range starts to emphasize bass frequencies unnaturally as the 'proximity effect' kicks in. Much farther than the maximum range and the mic starts to sound thin and room ambience and reverb begins to become apparent.

Hypers have a directional sensitivity pattern that is a somewhat wider than the shotguns' towards the front along the main axis of the mic, falling off as you get around to the sides, shows very little sensitivity in the rear quandrants until you get back to the very rear where there's a lobe of sensitivity pointing straight back. Their pattern is pretty uniform with frequency. Shotguns have a narrower cone of sensitivity to the front than the hypers that falls off rapidly as your get past 45 degress or so off axis. The problem is that it's not uniform and gets 'bumpy' with lobes shooting off as you get around towards 120 and 160 degrees off axis, plud a small bulge pointing straight back. The problem is the strength and width of these lobes varies a great deal with frequency and the mic can become almost omni at very low and very high frequencies. This means that when you use it in a reflective environment such as a normal interior, the frequency balance, the timbre of the sound, of the reflected sound it picks up is very distorted compared to that of the direct sound hitting the mic from the desired source. Mixing the two in the mic can produce all sorts of unpleasant sounds - the classic being a sound like the scene was recorded in a metal culvert or the bottom of an empty well.

As Alan said, phantom doesn't extend the range nor is it an option to use some of the time. All condensor mics need power for their internal electronics. It can come from an internal battery or it can be 'piggy-backed' on the same cable that carries the audio signal down to the mixer/recorder/camera. And just to make it interesting, there are two incompatible schemes for powering via the audio cable, phantom power and T-power. Some mics offer only battery power - generally cheap consumer mics. Some, such as the Rode NTG-2 offer both options with a battery to allow you to use it with a device that doesn't supply phantom and the ability to use phantom when it's available in order to save batteries. Other mics like the Oktava or the AT4073a don't have an internal battery and must be used with a source of phantom in order to work at all. T-power is still around and can be found on some older mics but has been pretty much replaced by phantom. There is also a third kind of cable powering called 'plug-in power' that is pretty well restricted to the cheap 'accessory' mics for consumer camcorders, cassette tape recorders, computer sound cards, and the like - the $20 "desktop multimedia microphone" you get at your neighborhood big-box electronics store would be an example. A mic requiring phantom will not work on plug-in power and vice versa.


HTH

S

[mainstreetprod]

Octava hypers can do amazing things when in close proximity. While shooting a no budget movie for my church, I has scheduled a scene to be shot at a pizza restaurant at 2pm - just to be sure it would not be busy. Got our actors seated at a table, ready to shoot, when a ball team walked in. The place was soon jam packed and noise level to the point you had to shout for the person beside you to hear. We could not reschedule, so I
dropped the Octava just above head level pointing down and framed the actors soap opera style, extreme closeups. The background noise was there, but at the level I would have ended up replacing it with in post had there been no customers. The dialog was crystal clear and the mic certainly passed the test.

[Toenis]

Octava hypers

Do you know where to get right now the genuine Oktava MK?012 as hyper only?

T

[John Willett]

If you're indoors in a situation where you can, always avoid wind protection!

Not true, I'm afraid, especially with shotguns.

True, you don't need a full basket windshield with Windjammer - but you *do* still need a foam windshield as you will get wind noise as you move the mic.



(Oops - just noticed that this is a very old thread that I have just come across and have replied to a very old post - sorry - still true, though).

[trey]

I'm curious. What is a hyper?

Thank you to anyone willing to share the answer.

Trey

[John Willett]

I'm curious. What is a hyper?

A "hyper" is a Hyper-cardioid mic..

The pattern is about half way between a cardioid and fig-8 - it's about one part omni and two parts fig-8 (cardioid is equal parts of omni and fig-8).

The hyper-cardioid microphone has it’s angle of maximum rejection at 109.5º.
It is optimised for the maximum directivity coefficient of 4.0.
Rejection at 90º is -12dB
Rejection at 180º is -6dB

Super-Cardioid
The super-cardioid microphone has it’s angle of maximum rejection at 125.3º.
It is optimised for the maximum front to rear index and has a directivity coefficient of 3.73.
Rejection at 90º is -8.7dB
Rejection at 180º is -11.6dB

Though Sennheiser started the tradition of making a super-cardioid that has a directivity coefficient of 3.86.
Rejection at 90º is -9.5dB
Rejection at 180º is also -9.5dB
The attenuation at 90º is equal to the attenuation at 180º (the 180º signal being out-of-phase of course), this means that the attention is concentrated on the sound coming to the front of the
microphone.

The disadvantage of the hyper-cardioid is that sounds from the rear can be too high due to the lack of rear attenuation, and the disadvantage of the standard super-cardioid is that its side rejection is not enough.

I hope this helps.

[puredrifting]

So if I was a one man crew for a wedding and i had a boom mic for secondary sound and a Lavalier mic to wire the Groom....would the Oktava mk012 Indoor Mic do good for the camera mounted mic and a Lecto M150 for the wireless mic. Will this do the job for an alright sound for 1 man crew? Plus i need the best bang for the buck. If someone can fill me in on this that would be great
Thanks

The Oktava camera mounted would be a nightmare of handling noise. You can listen to my handling noise tests here. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html
The Audio-Technica AT875r was created as an camera mounted mic and sounds great on camera, and off with a boom. I used it camera mounted for ambient on the Prison Break set last week and it worked really well.



Dan

[Ortho2000]

Just a short note ...it is Dec. 2011...almost 2012....and I have really really enjoyed this thread.... thanks to all for posting !

[djmfoxtrot]

Me, too

[robfilms]

it took me all afternoon, between sending out invoices, paying bills and getting the books ready for the accountant, but i did manage to read this entire thread.

thanks to those who are willing to share.

ymmv

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions
nyc