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View Full Version : Strobing/ Lack of Blur on pans?



diego1235467
06-26-2010, 06:22 PM
So I've been reading as much as I can about this camera (I'm making the switch from DVX), and I've seen many videos that seem to strobe with movement or pans. It's like there is no motion blur

Does anyone know how to avoid this, and what's causing it?

Here are some examples.
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At 5:14-518, look at the cars. I see no motion blur.
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I love this video, but again, I don't see any motion blur, and the footage seem to "strobe" with the pans.
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x_WOrPIG_x
06-26-2010, 06:28 PM
It's like there is no motion blur

High shutter speed? you would get film like motion blur at 1/50 .

diego1235467
06-26-2010, 07:01 PM
The "Lateral Motion Test" was done at 1/50.

bwwd
06-26-2010, 07:24 PM
somebody did bad job with pulldown thats all.

diego1235467
06-26-2010, 07:39 PM
But they used the hack, and I thought you didn't have to use pulldown removal with that...

Nitsuj
06-26-2010, 08:20 PM
Well you can always go to 1/30 or 1/40 to get more blur but it might be too much. I think a lot of people are forgetting that this is a $1500 (in 2009 anyway) camera. It just can't and won't be able to match a film camera and it's ability to have that smooth motion blur going on. You have to work your way around these things or pay for a better camera. Instead of quick pans do slow and steady pans on a fluid head tripod. I see so many examples of this strobing but they are 99% hand held situations. You just can't expect to whip the camera around following somebody on a bike doing tricks to get that smooth film look imo. Go to 720p for stuff like that. This camera rocks because it has so many options to choose from for the task at hand. No matter what, everybody is not going to be satisfied with the technology. The thing that matters in my view is the content and doing the best you can with the equipment you have.

diego1235467
06-26-2010, 08:32 PM
I'm just checking up on these problems because I'm considering making the switch to the GH1 from a DVX. I'm just not convinced that it's a smart idea, but at the same time many people seem to be doing it.

Brian@202020
06-26-2010, 08:42 PM
I'm just checking up on these problems because I'm considering making the switch to the GH1 from a DVX. I'm just not convinced that it's a smart idea, but at the same time many people seem to be doing it.

I just bought the GH1 myself and I am considering selling my HPX170 and Letus Ultimate. I still haven't made up my mind 100% yet tho. If I still had a DVX I'd say it's a no brainer. Sell it while you can, or just have both.

Nitsuj
06-26-2010, 08:43 PM
I'm just checking up on these problems because I'm considering making the switch to the GH1 from a DVX. I'm just not convinced that it's a smart idea, but at the same time many people seem to be doing it.

That's cool man. I'm just saying don't get caught up in the hype too much. You can't beat the bang for the buck on these things. Sometimes you just gotta take the plunge and make the best of it. I got mine the first month it was released and shortly after the 7D came out. I hesitated for a minute there because I thought maybe I should have waited but I just kept using it and knew it had more potential. I just banked on the idea that somebody would unlock it's goodness and now I'm starting to feel psychic.

You also have to keep in mind that most of the stuff people are viewing is streaming video on the internet. It is very possible to really mess up the compression for web viewing. Sometimes you will see a video online that looks pristine and others look not so good. Usually the pristine video is the result of somebody knowing the optimal settings for the sight they are uploading to.

wturber
06-26-2010, 09:00 PM
The "Lateral Motion Test" was done at 1/50.

I'd double check all your settings. Make sure you are shooting FHD. Frankly, I see so little rolling shutter effect that I'm unconvinced that this was shot at 24fps on a GH1.

Make sure you have the setting on manual to make sure you know what the shutter speed is. In order to get around 1/50th of a second, you had to have the aperture at f/22 or so. Was that the case?

I saw lots of motion blur on the guitars in the first clip. No surprise since those were inside.

There is no problem getting motion blur with the GH1. If your shutter were at 1/50 second, you'd have blur across about 1/2 the distance that any object moved in the frame. We don't see that. That indicates that the shutter speed wasn't 1/50 second. If I were to guess, I'd guess you had the camera in an aperture preferred mode. You got blur on the guitars not because your motion was axial, but because there was less light and a slower shutter speed was used. It can be hard to get a slow shutter speed in daylight unless you use an extreme aperture setting or some ND and/or polarizing filters.

diego1235467
06-26-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm starting college, and will be doing short films soon. Up until now, I've done only "music video" things.

The WORST thing about the DVX for me is the banding on colors like red and blue. It makes the image look pretty nasty, and I think I could put up with the jello and strobing more than the banding.

All in all, would you guys recommend that I ditch my DVX for the GH1? Ideally I'd have both, but I have to sell my DVX to buy the GH1. Even once I sell it I won't have quite enough, but my mom is willing to help me out a little. I figure with the HD craze, I should be able to pay her back after I shoot a few music vids.

Brian@202020
06-26-2010, 09:06 PM
That's cool man. I'm just saying don't get caught up in the hype too much...

This is true to a point. Diego are you a hobbyist or do you make a living off these things? I myself Work as a DP and also rent out camera gear. I watched my HPX rentals go down from 3-4 rentals a week. I think last month I had 3 rentals the entire month. Everyone in Minneapolis here seems to be going the way of the DSLR. Personally I like the CCD chips and the 422 color of the P2 cameras more so than the full raster HD of the DSLRs myself but I think I'm in the minority, at least in this town. So a DSLR with higher bitrates and 422 will tide me over until the next big thing comes out. And hopefully I can still get a little bit of money for my HPX if I sell soon.

Nitsuj
06-26-2010, 09:09 PM
Well if you got the gear to go with it then I'd say go for it. You really need a two part system video/audio. So the zoom H4n is an excellent choice. I also got a couple of lavaliers and the Rhode NTG-2. I didn't get the zoom at first and a short I did suffered greatly in the audio because of that. That and a tripod should do the trick. Then all you have to do is purchase glass as you come across any good deals. The beauty of this system is being able to buy glass that will outlast the camera. So you just upgrade your camera in the future and still get to use a great lens you got along the way.

Nitsuj
06-26-2010, 09:14 PM
This is true to a point. Diego are you a hobbyist or do you make a living off these things? I myself Work as a DP and also rent out camera gear. I watched my HPX rentals go down from 3-4 rentals a week. I think last month I had 3 rentals the entire month. Everyone in Minneapolis here seems to be going the way of the DSLR. Personally I like the CCD chips and the 422 color of the P2 cameras more so than the full raster HD of the DSLRs myself but I think I'm in the minority, at least in this town. So a DSLR with higher bitrates and 422 will tide me over until the next big thing comes out. And hopefully I can still get a little bit of money for my HPX if I sell soon.

Oh for sure man. Actually it is a toss up to either buy your own equipment or rent. Lets say you got $7k to spend do you A) buy your equipment and then hope to get some more money down the road to make a film or B) make a movie with your money. It is a real hard choice. If you got the script and you just know it is ready for the plunge then rent the equipment and make your movie. I went with A) and sometimes I wonder if I should have just made a film instead. However I now have time on my side if I don't have the $ so its just a matter of what moves you I suppose.

Oh and of course $7k would really really be risking it to actually make a film for that. $7k these days won't get you very far. That is the main reason I chose to just get my own equipment and try to later raise the $ for a film with a more manageable budget.

wturber
06-26-2010, 09:34 PM
OK - so I watched the other two videos. Almost all of it was taken ... drumroll ... outside. That means lots of light and a very high likelihood of fast shutter speeds. One clip at the amusement park/pier was taken inside an arcade. Guess what you can see there. Yep ... motion blur (on people's feet.)

Get some ND filters for your lens and slow the shutter down. You'll get the motion blur you are looking for.

Nitsuj
06-26-2010, 09:41 PM
Get some ND filters for your lens and slow the shutter down. You'll get the motion blur you are looking for.

Bingo

Brian@202020
06-26-2010, 09:45 PM
Get some ND filters for your lens and slow the shutter down. You'll get the motion blur you are looking for.

He's right. I just got the Fader ND yesterday. I played around with it a bit today and it's pretty slick. I'd look into something like that.

wturber
06-26-2010, 09:47 PM
He's right. I just got the Fader ND yesterday. I played around with it a bit today and it's pretty slick. I'd look into something like that.


Yeah - there are two brands of "faders." Very cool. I'm too cheap for that. But if you are serious about filmmaking, that's probably the way to go.

diego1235467
06-26-2010, 10:49 PM
First of all, these aren't my tests, I only posted them here. I'm going by what the original posters said. In the first video, he said he was positive it was 1/50, and he's confused as to why that strobing is happening. I decided to post the same question here since I've noticed it as well, and no one was giving him good answers.

On to the other questions. As of now I'm a hobbyist, but would like to make music videos for clients, not for a living though. I'm only a student right now, so I can't afford much gear. My plan would be to make some videos for profit, and invest that into more camera gear. If I were to buy a GH1, that's all I'd have for a while. No mics, no shoulder mount, no glass, etc. I'd have to shoot a few vids with a barebones cam until I got some cash together. Oh, and of course I have a tripod. Like I said, even if I sell my DVX I won't have quite enough to get the GH1, so I'd have to borrow some cash. That's leaves out any potential accessories for a while.

My ultimate goal is to be a film director, and at this point I plan on studying film. The cam would be used for music videos and short films.

Could someone please refer me to a few videos of the GH13 that have plenty of motion in it? Not so much that it looks like crap, but some good videos that show what to expect from movement on the GH1, including blur.

Even "professional" tests that I've seen (and downloaded the original file) seem to be slightly jumpy. Like this one. It's subtle, but it's definitely there.
12718346

wturber
06-27-2010, 12:16 AM
First of all, these aren't my tests, I only posted them here. I'm going by what the original posters said. In the first video, he said he was positive it was 1/50, and he's confused as to why that strobing is happening. I decided to post the same question here since I've noticed it as well, and no one was giving him good answers.


OK. So I posted the answer for him just now.

One thing I added to the answer was that 24fps, while preferred by many is not what I prefer. The frame rate is too slow IMO and I frequently see "shuddering" in movies. I find it intrusive. Others love how 24fps make HD seem "filmic." IMO, it just makes the medium being used more obvious. I prefer that the medium be more transparent. After all, it is the medium, not the subject.

I don't know all the science, but in the past I've read that the nature of the display also affects our perceptions of what makes a particular frame rate acceptable. There was a reason that the NTSC engineers went with the convoluted 60 field NTSC system (Yes, the fact that AC was 60hz was a key reason, but they could have gone with a 30 frame system and not 60 fields.) With the self-illuminating screen, they felt the extra frame rate was important. I think at least partially to deal with flickering as well as smoothness of motion.

And it is no accident that HDTV standard are either 60 frame/sec or 60 field/sec and not 24fps. 24 fps is simply doesn't record motion as well. And with digital transmission and display, we can have whatever frame rate we want. The efficiencies of syncing to the 60hz of AC power just doesn't matter any more.

I know that many people seem to love 24 fps. Well that's OK. Different strokes and all that. But 24 fps presents problems with shuddering (juddering?). This isn't a GH1 issue, it is a 24 fps issue. You have to shoot understanding its limitations if you want to minimize its intrusion.

Welcome to film school.

diego1235467
06-27-2010, 01:05 AM
But the stuttering that I see in those videos isn't the typical stutter you get with 24 fps, it's something different.

wturber
06-27-2010, 02:26 AM
But the stuttering that I see in those videos isn't the typical stutter you get with 24 fps, it's something different.

How is it different?

Keep in mind that you are viewing video streaming over the web. You don't really know the shutter speeds of the various videos you are seeing. You don't really know if the flash app that is playing the video is running at the appropriate speed and/or if any frames are being dropped. Also, some of the video you've linked to was shot at 30 fps and then converted to 24 fps. Then, of course, there is the issue of the lens stabilization with the 14-140mm lens when it might be used in some of these examples. In short, you have lots of variables at work that are unaccounted for. So I'd be very careful about drawing any general conclusions.

diego1235467
06-27-2010, 02:29 AM
Because my DVX shoots 24 fps as well, and it looks vastly different than this footage. I downloaded the original video of the last video I posted, and that has the ugly stuttering as well.

Again, if anyone can post some videos of the GH1 with some decent looking movement, it might help me. I haven't found a good test video for that yet.

Chris Light
06-27-2010, 02:40 AM
download source file (as you've done) and burn a bluray, or even dvd compliant, and watch it on your hdtv....dude, things look far different on the internet, and often better, believe it or not.

wturber
06-27-2010, 09:05 AM
Because my DVX shoots 24 fps as well, and it looks vastly different than this footage. I downloaded the original video of the last video I posted, and that has the ugly stuttering as well.

Again, if anyone can post some videos of the GH1 with some decent looking movement, it might help me. I haven't found a good test video for that yet.

When I asked how the footage was different, I was referring to the look, not the source. My understanding is that the DVX cameras shoot with two different pulldown methods. Each might look a little different.

BTW, the standard 14-140mm HD lens for the GH1 has an image stabilization mode where it only tries to stabilize in the vertical access. This is specifically designed to give image stabilization while doing pans. So, what happens if someone shoots with that lens and has the image stabilization set "wrong?"

jaycanode
06-27-2010, 09:49 AM
Diego,

I'd say don't strap yourself.

These new cameras (DSLR's) DO NOT make you a better shooter or film maker. They do however, force you to know the basics of film. Film is gone but all the parameters of film remain the same. You will need these skills to make pretty pictures with DSLR's

Learn how to shoot...I mean really shoot with your DVX. Give an experienced DP ANY camera and he/she will be able to make art. Ever see the "short" that essentially sold "Napoleon Dynamite" to MTV for a million dollars? It was technically crap!!! It was all about the content and the message being conveyed.

I don't know if you are paying for film school or what. Film school is freakin spendy. You have an effective, albeit somewhat antiquated, tool. If you trade up to the GH1 all you will have is a body and lens. You'll then have to spend lots more money to have a tool that is as versatile as the DVX. Make the best of what you have and do not rely on technology to advance your skills.

People are making beautiful images with these new cameras but it wasn't the camera that chose the angles, set shutter speeds, found the right light etc....

Best of luck.