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View Full Version : gh13 and 5d mark 2 IQ and DR comparison



Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 10:25 AM
EDIT: Ive updated this first post with all my grabs.

Not trying to start a fight, I use the 5d ALL the time, but I wanted to get more of a IQ test between the gh1 with the avchd hack and the 5dmark2- just for my own brain's sake. I really thought the 5d would edge out the gh1(3) but im not so sure anymore.

This is a real world dynamic range test and they look to be just about identical but the gh1(3) is much sharper and overall IMO has a higher image quality, especially given the 5dmark 2 should have a sharpness advantage as I had to use a slightly more telephoto lens on it (didnt have a 40mm to match exactly, so i used a 50mm on the 5d)- if I had a 40mm, the 5d would look even softer. Another interesting bit is I had to put the canon at iso 400 to visually match brightness of the gh1 at iso 100.

FOCUS WAS TRIPLE CHECKED AND IS ON THE WALL OF WINDOWS

GH1 settings:
1080/24p
iso 100
Nostalgic mode
Iexposure on high
-2 contrast
+2 color
-2 sharpness
0 noise reduction
125th/sec @ f8 on 20mm pancake
Daylight WB

5Dm2:
1080/24p
iso 400 (had to use this to match brightness of the gh1 @ iso100)
neutral mode
contrast all the way down
sharpness all the way down
color at base
125th/sec @ f8 nikkor 50mm ais
daylight WB (looks more green than the gh1, could be partly because of the lens)

Spot meter readings attached as well, both look about 8 usable stops. Promise there is no funny business going on I dont care which one "wins". These are jpegs at ~90% quality, both look a little better as prores.

5Dm2:
http://www.flaretastic.com/5dm2.jpg

GH1(3) avchd "c" bitrate hack (44mbs?):
http://www.flaretastic.com/gh1.jpg

Spot meter exposure guide for dynamic range (same scene readings for both, this one just has the gh1 image shown):
http://www.flaretastic.com/DR%20image%20guide.jpg

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Found a 35mm for the 5d and reshot it with some sharpening added in camera (attempt to match the gh1 sharpening (to make it more "fair"). This time I used "standard" mode on the gh1 with the same settings above applied. Interesting how the standard mode effected the image on the GH1, makes the canon almost look over exposed.

5Dm2:
http://www.flaretastic.com/5dwide.jpg

GH1:
http://www.flaretastic.com/gh1wide.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Case closed...

5D superflat- iso200:
http://www.flaretastic.com/5dsuperflat.jpg

GH1(3) iso100:
http://www.flaretastic.com/gh13standard.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is BEST case scenario for the 5D in terms of range, HTP is on, auto lighting is on max setting, and its running on the superflat preset- you cant make these kind of extreme adjustments on the gh1 in camera, but because you asked for it:

5D:
http://www.flaretastic.com/5dhtpflatauto.jpg

GH1 with ie on HIGH:
http://www.flaretastic.com/gh1ie.jpg

GH1 with ie OFF:
http://www.flaretastic.com/gh1ieoff.jpg

Pretty damn close. The canon stuff almost looks out of focus next to the gh1(3)- its not, focus is on the plant and the lens is stopped down to 4/5.6.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just one more and then you guys have to do your own tests.

Tried to match overall look in this shot; the gh1 edges out the 5d in terms of detail (again making the 5D seem out of focus compared to it).

5D (~4/5.6):
http://www.flaretastic.com/5dface.jpg

GH1(3) (~2.0):
http://www.flaretastic.com/gh1face.jpg

cowpunk52
06-18-2010, 10:32 AM
This is very interesting, well done, and concurrent with exactly what I've experienced when comparing my GH1 and my 5D mark II. Thanks for posting.

jenningsp
06-18-2010, 11:10 AM
thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!

what's with the stair stepping on all the diagonal lines in the GH1's image? is that in the original or the prores?

it's interesting that the GH1 kept more of the sky and also looks like the mids are brighter...

Ben_B
06-18-2010, 11:17 AM
thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!

what's with the stair stepping on all the diagonal lines in the GH1's image? is that in the original or the prores?

it's interesting that the GH1 kept more of the sky and also looks like the mids are brighter...

That would be aliasing. I am seeing it in the 5D shot too.

Ben_B
06-18-2010, 11:20 AM
The dynamic ranges look pretty similar in terms of stop range...though the GH1 looks a little brighter across the board and seems to hold a bit more sky color...but I wonder how much of that is the (IMO) better colors of the camera. Also the 5D shot looks a little warmer generally...maybe that's why.

Anyway, goes to show that a certain "shootout" can't accurately predict all real world situations :)

plasmasmp
06-18-2010, 11:28 AM
Would love to see a macbeth chart for reference if you have one lying around next time you do a test :)

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 11:29 AM
Thanks for shooting that Hunter. When testing the 7D against the GH1 I came to the same conclusion, that they were within a hair's breadth of each other.

For the fun of it, can you re-try that using "superflat" on the 5D, just to settle the question forever?

Also, looks like the GH1 may have more digital edge enhancement on it... double-check to make sure you had sharpness at -2.

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 11:30 AM
moved to first post...

jenningsp
06-18-2010, 11:30 AM
i was under the impression that the GH1 was WAY better at not aliasing than this... way better than the 5D at least. it's most noticeable on the left leg and power cable of the arri light. i'm ignoring the power lines :)

maybe it's the wider shot and the deeper focus making it worse by comparison...

excellent DR range test though!!! now we just need some skin tones :)

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 11:32 AM
Where can I find the superflat setting download?

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 11:34 AM
Aliasing is very strong because these are both shot at f8, this is as bad as it gets.

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 11:38 AM
Also, looks like the GH1 may have more digital edge enhancement on it... double-check to make sure you had sharpness at -2.

Yep, its at -2. That 20mm pancake is insanely sharp and high contrast (too sharp at f8 if you ask me!), the canon fd's look a lot better with their lower contrast.

jenningsp
06-18-2010, 11:38 AM
superflat is found in the zip folder in the description
and the video will tell you how to set it up

http://vimeo.com/7256322

jenningsp
06-18-2010, 11:41 AM
i'm not sure if you should shoot with zero contrast with the super flat preset or not... -2 contrast might make it super super flat... test both!! :)

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 11:47 AM
i was under the impression that the GH1 was WAY better at not aliasing than this... way better than the 5D at least.
In terms of luminance aliasing they are comparable (which is what we're seeing here). Where the GH1 (and the Nikon and Pentax line too) are WAY better than the Canon, is in the chroma aliasing and purple/orange color contamination.

But all DSLRs have what appears to be a similar amount of luminance aliasing.

Ian-T
06-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Also, looks like the GH1 may have more digital edge enhancement on it... double-check to make sure you had sharpness at -2.
I've been saying this all along.

jenningsp
06-18-2010, 11:57 AM
also test with highlight tone priority enabled!!! :)

cowpunk52
06-18-2010, 12:00 PM
also test with highlight tone priority enabled!!! :)

He has enabled iExposure on the high setting:



GH1 settings:
1080/24p
iso 100
Nostalgic mode
Iexposure on high
-2 contrast
+2 color
-2 sharpness
0 noise reduction
125th/sec @ f8 on 20mm pancake
Daylight WB

Ben_B
06-18-2010, 12:01 PM
also test with highlight tone priority enabled!!! :)

Ew. HTP only has a place in tests basically....does some strange things that make it pretty impractical in most shooting conditions...adds a lot of noise, among other things.

dvbrother
06-18-2010, 12:03 PM
Hunter,

Out of curiosity, why did you use the iExposure on the GH1? I have always left that off because I have a dim recollection it was not good for moving images. Something about it shifting contrast during the shot. Would leaving it off affect the GH1's dynamic range in your test?

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 12:07 PM
Where can I find the superflat setting download?
Cinema5D has a collection of links.

Here's superflat v1
http://www.stubbings.ch/yay/superflat01.zip

Here's Luka's video that claims to show dramatic increases in a 7D's dynamic range:
7256322

On his vimeo page he provides a link to download several styles, presumably including superflat.
http://www.crnkovic.org/video/picture_styles.zip

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 12:08 PM
Out of curiosity, why did you use the iExposure on the GH1?
Hm, didn't notice that before. Yeah, if you're going to use iExposure on the GH1, then you should also use the Canon equivalent, I think it's called the Auto Lighting Optimizer. If you don't want to use it on one, you shouldn't use it on the other...

dvbrother
06-18-2010, 12:09 PM
This is off the topic of dynamic range, but I also notice a lot of fringing and chromatic aberration on the second GH1 shot (the one with a person in it). The windows on the left and the ceiling pipes on the upper left especially. Does the 20mm pancake usually have that much chromatic aberration?

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 12:15 PM
also test with highlight tone priority enabled!!! :)
HTP is another kind of iExposure type of thing. It doesn't actually increase dynamic range, it just gains up the darker sections of the video (adding noise). But it helps you protect your highlights.

None of them (iExposure, HTP, or ALO) actually increase the dynamic range of what the sensor is actually capturing. They just change the way the in-camera processing handles the signal. HTP underexposes everything by a stop, and then puts gain on the darker parts to bring the brightness back up.

I would normally recommend having all those features turned off, so you can test the raw performance of what the camera can actually capture. Or, if you want to see how far it can be stretched in-camera, go ahead and turn them on, but they should be enabled equally for all the cameras in any given test.

PDR
06-18-2010, 12:16 PM
Thanks for posting the comparisons

There seems to be a decoding error, or error in footage in post #8 of the GH1(3): There is a block artifact over the left wrist.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2023481&postcount=8

Can you review the footage and see if this is persistent? and check if it was from decoding (maybe switch decoders), or screenshot capture method

Also can you comment on which patch settings were used

Thanks

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 12:19 PM
moved to first post...

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 12:21 PM
Thanks for posting the comparisons

There seems to be a decoding error, or error in footage in post #8 of the GH1(3): There is a block artifact over the left wrist.


Nice catch, but not to worry. There are no errors in the footage. I see those during playback when using VLC (i used screen capture to grab screen shots)- there are no errors when I transcode the footage, just VLC making on the fly decoding.

PDR
06-18-2010, 12:25 PM
Nice catch, but not to worry. There are no errors in the footage. I see those during playback when using VLC (i used screen capture to grab screen shots)- there are no errors when I transcode the footage, just VLC making on the fly decoding.


So this suggests that this is a VLC decoding error?

Is it a repeatable & consistent over the same frame ?

What software are you using to transcode?

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Hm, didn't notice that before. Yeah, if you're going to use iExposure on the GH1, then you should also use the Canon equivalent, I think it's called the Auto Lighting Optimizer. If you don't want to use it on one, you shouldn't use it on the other...

Good point-I used iexposure because it lowers contrast, with it off the -2 setting just doesnt make the image match the canons larger range of contrast reduction.

I havent seen that feature in the canon before but ill try to find it and do another with HTP on AND auto lighting on. Gotta run a few errands first then ill be back.

For full disclosure, the point of this little test isnt to make the gh1 look better, its just too see how they pair up on my normal shooting settings for both cameras. What I have found is that they are very very close in performance now, not in high iso's im sure but for normal shooting- a hacked gh1 seems like the best bang for your buck.

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 12:33 PM
So this suggests that this is a VLC decoding error?

Is it a repeatable & consistent over the same frame ?

What software are you using to transcode?

Yes, it happens on every clip when I playback in vlc, not just with this camera, any mts clip. I use log and transfer. I assure you there are no issues like this with the actual footage, ive pixel peeped for stuff like this.

Kholi
06-18-2010, 12:34 PM
Will second that VLC is probably the culprit. It's terrible for playing back video files.

Even simply throwing up some anime that doesn't have glitches in it, VLC shreds it.

Dunno why. It used to work well.

Thanks for doing the comparison, Hunter. I'm out and out surprised at the way the sky's less blown out on the GH1.

Weird.

plasmasmp
06-18-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm very interested to see how the GH1 would compare in the zacuto tests, specifically if there would be any change to the lightbulb scene in particular.

Thanks Hunter for the tests! Your sample short the other day finally convinced me that I needed to buy a GH1 for testing this hack. :D

macgregor
06-18-2010, 01:21 PM
HTP is another kind of iExposure type of thing. It doesn't actually increase dynamic range, it just gains up the darker sections of the video (adding noise). But it helps you protect your highlights.

Hi Barry, HTP does indeed get you extra dynamic range in video mode by mapping the mid tone in a lower zone (1stop lower) therefore achieving one extra stop in the highlights while having the same amount in the shadows (but noiser, of course). It seems to be an "infinite" ammount of DR in the shadows, that are recorded in raw, but clipped in video mode.

Shifting the mid grey should in fact not increase DR in the RAW, but we are not shooting raw, but highly compressed RGB/YUV.
Same trick as high end cameras basically.

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 01:31 PM
moved to first post...

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 01:37 PM
moved to first post...

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 01:38 PM
edit: double posted on accident...

Stephen Mick
06-18-2010, 01:45 PM
Hunter,

I'm not sure what's going on in the last two test shots, but you look a lot more pensive in the GH1 shot. :D

Nice work and thanks!

ryancglover
06-18-2010, 02:04 PM
Very cool info, thanks!

Adventsam
06-18-2010, 02:05 PM
edit: double posted on accident...

Notes,

If you use the 20mm at f2, you would use a 35mm Canon at f3.5, or 20mm at f4 would be about f6.7 say on the Canon 35mm. Interesting about the iso though, which is a bit of folklore but is obviously true.

Good test, note I notice quite a bit of CA on my 20mm.

Good test though, thanks

dvbrother
06-18-2010, 02:21 PM
Two things. Both somewhat off-topic:
1) Seeing how the iExposure on the GH1 boosts the shadows to where there's less chroma noise on the white wall, I'm definitely going to experiment with using it. It definitely creates a lower contrast image.

2) If your 20mm and 40mm are both accurate in their f-stops (for the first 2 photos you posted), then the implications are huge, because if 100 ISO on the GH1 is equivalent to 400 ISO on the Canon 5D, then the low-light advantage of the Canons over the GH1 is suspect. Assuming a similar correlation between ISOs, wouldn't 400 ISO on the GH1 equal the 5D's 1600 ISO? I'm not sure that's logical or correct, but a 2-stop difference from 100 ISO to 400 ISO is huge.

I've never shot with a 5D, so I can't comment further on this idea. I've found a close relation between the GH1's meter and my Sekonic meter, so I've always balked at the discrepancy in ISO's between Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, etc. With all this variance, how does anyone use an external light meter with confidence?

Anyway, thanks for all the test shots, Hunter.

Hunter Hampton
06-18-2010, 03:32 PM
dvbrother- Thanks, I used my sekonic L758 and I found it to be more in line with the GH1 than the 5d as well. It was less of a difference with the canon in "superflat" mode, but I would say the gh1 is faster by at least a stop for the same iso. Dxomark.com has some great sensor tests and shows the gh1's listed iso's are about 1/2stop faster where the canons are almost 1/2stop slower than the listed iso, it also says (in RAW) that the Gh1 has 11.3 stops DR while the Canon has 11.6, I didnt beleive they were that close but after today- im a beliver. ; )

Kellar42
06-18-2010, 04:49 PM
This is great stuff, thank you!

JoeJITSU
06-18-2010, 07:10 PM
This is great stuff, thank you!
Its unbelievable GREAT STUFF! Thank you

Trucci
06-18-2010, 07:48 PM
Thanks for doing this! I think I'm doing to mess around with the iexposure settings more.

Emanuel
06-18-2010, 08:29 PM
The canon stuff almost looks out of focus next to the gh1(3)- its not, focus is on the plant and the lens is stopped down to 4/5.6.#34: what's the GH1's aperture?

squig
06-18-2010, 08:55 PM
Thanks Hunter, great tests.

The 5D appears to have a slight edge over the GH13 with the superflat profile. There's a lot more detail in the clouds, I like fluffy clouds. You're right about bang for buck though, they're damn close.

Emanuel
06-18-2010, 09:13 PM
«I like fluffy clouds...» LOL Anthony... We practically posted at the same time even if in different sections of this forum. I was answering to another post of yours to a previous comment of mine about these cameras. Horses for courses anyway.

I like to have both tools in my bag, though.

Kholi
06-18-2010, 09:28 PM
Who requested Superflat, anyway? That's the worst profile you can throw on the 5D/7D. Looks like crap in any real situation.

Neutral dialed down is more plausible.

Regardless, though, great comparisons Big Richards!

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 09:35 PM
I threw out the superflat suggestion, just so we could get to the bottom of the "it adds three stops of DR" question once and for all.

Kholi
06-18-2010, 09:37 PM
Oh okay. Certainly no way in hades that garbage adds three stops. Hahaha.

seanmcleod
06-18-2010, 09:43 PM
How is it not mentioned that Hunter has a beautiful studio!

Ian-T
06-18-2010, 09:45 PM
In that first set of pictures something strikes me as odd. But the plant and room in general looks out of focus on the 5Dll compared to the GH-1....and I know you said they were focussed the same. But when you look at the background (mountains, buildings etc. outside the window) everything on the 5Dll looks sharper than in the GH-1 pictures. Am I crazy? PLus the GH-1's images have halos around the plants edge etc. Is sharpening all the way down?

Thanks for doing all of this by the way.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
06-18-2010, 09:46 PM
Yes: Forget the d*mn cameras! Look at that space, the natural light, and the view. Nice, Hunter! :-)

plasmasmp
06-18-2010, 09:48 PM
One little note: If you smoothly roll of the highlights, you get a similar highlight response as the 5D. The way the Gh1 naturally rolls off highlights is extremly ugly in my opinion.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8751/highlightsg.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/highlightsg.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Kholi
06-18-2010, 09:51 PM
^ Gotta agree with that. You do need to really tame the highlights. NDs and Pola in front of the lens help this a lot.

Oedipax
06-18-2010, 10:12 PM
plasmasp, are you rolling the highlights off there by tweaking the luma curve or some other technique?

Emanuel
06-18-2010, 10:45 PM
In that first set of pictures something strikes me as odd. But the plant and room in general looks out of focus on the 5Dll compared to the GH-1....and I know you said they were focussed the same. But when you look at the background (mountains, buildings etc. outside the window) everything on the 5Dll looks sharper than in the GH-1 pictures. Am I crazy? No, you are not. Once Hunter said the focus is on the plant, as same as you, I wonder myself why...?
That's why I asked about the aperture on the GH1.

Or maybe the fake detail aka aliasing may have some use after all. LOL

Cavemandude
06-18-2010, 10:47 PM
This time I used "standard" mode on the gh1 with the same settings above applied. Interesting how the standard mode effected the image on the GH1, makes the canon almost look over exposed.

So what is the conclusion on whether to use Standard or Nostalgic Mode on the GH1 from the images posted here?

Randy

Emanuel
06-18-2010, 10:59 PM
One little note: If you smoothly roll of the highlights, you get a similar highlight response as the 5D. The way the Gh1 naturally rolls off highlights is extremly ugly in my opinion.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8751/highlightsg.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/highlightsg.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)Agreed.

maxminoia
06-19-2010, 12:58 AM
In "smooth" mode or "nostalgic" the highlight rolloff is better than "standard" mode, I would like to see how the sky looks with the GH1 in "smooth" mode because in all pictures but the first it looks unnaturally oversaturated/cyan compared to the 5D.

Kholi
06-19-2010, 12:59 AM
I can't decide which mode to shoot in, Nostalgic or SMooth. I just go with Nostalgic and everything dialed down, but it would be nice to be able to dial down further. Maybe turn Noise Reduction OFF and make sure that it's off.

Reduce in camera sharpening to non-existent, those sorts of parameters.

Emanuel
06-19-2010, 01:47 AM
In that first set of pictures something strikes me as odd. But the plant and room in general looks out of focus on the 5Dll compared to the GH-1....and I know you said they were focussed the same. But when you look at the background (mountains, buildings etc. outside the window) everything on the 5Dll looks sharper than in the GH-1 pictures. Am I crazy?No, you are not. Once Hunter said the focus is on the plant, as same as you, I wonder myself why...?
That's why I asked about the aperture on the GH1.

Or maybe the fake detail aka aliasing may have some use after all. LOLAside the fact the 4/3" Pancake is in its full aperture as mere academic hypothesis, we would have 1-1 1/4 stop (4/5.6 for full frame Canon) for such DOF difference (?)

Emanuel
06-19-2010, 01:51 AM
Notes,

If you use the 20mm at f2, you would use a 35mm Canon at f3.5, or 20mm at f4 would be about f6.7 say on the Canon 35mm.BTW, it would be interesting to have full information on the lens used. 35mm? Canon FD?

There is obvious CA with the Canon what clearly means the difference of glass quality comparing with the superior Pancake. Apples to oranges IMHO. Here's a link about the use of different glass in camera comparison tests:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213806


Curious discussion in any way.

Adventsam
06-19-2010, 03:12 AM
You find this in the camera icons, pag4, colour space, once dialed in from a std PASM setting, carries over to all video settings in CMM, but only uncover the option in still icon? you will see lot less "garish" colour much "flatter", try it.

Hunter Hampton
06-19-2010, 05:49 AM
No, you are not. Once Hunter said the focus is on the plant, as same as you, I wonder myself why...?
That's why I asked about the aperture on the GH1.

Or maybe the fake detail aka aliasing may have some use after all. LOL

On that one I just matched histograms the best I could (didnt have time make a full scene reading), the gh1 was at about ~2.2 as I was trying to somewhat match dof. It could be because I used a 35mm (instead of a 40mm) that there may have been more dof than I anticipated OR its also possible that your seeing perceived "focus" because I turned the sharpness on the 5d to 4 to try and match the GH1 sharpening (which was at -2).

Hunter Hampton
06-19-2010, 05:51 AM
You find this in the camera icons, pag4, colour space, once dialed in from a std PASM setting, carries over to all video settings in CMM, but only uncover the option in still icon? you will see lot less "garish" colour much "flatter", try it.

It is in that color space.

Hunter Hampton
06-19-2010, 05:56 AM
BTW, it would be interesting to have full information on the lens used. 35mm? Canon FD?

There is obvious CA with the Canon what clearly means the difference of glass quality comparing with the superior Pancake.

That is definatly part of it, the 20mm pancake is extremely high contrast, the only 35mm I have is a pretty old vivitar, but it is quite stopped down and out resolves the HD video modes if you compared it with a still- definatly lower contrast though which makes it seem less sharp I think.f I shot a still with the canon of the same scene with the same lens, it would definatly win. I can call a few friends and try to borrow a zeiss ZF 35mm and do a reshoot.

The main thing I noticed though is that the 5d looks out of focus with any lens compared to the gh1- the nikkor 50mm 1.4 ais is sharp as hell stopped down (first shot) but it still looks soft in HD video mode.

Edit: Here is a still taken with this same vivitar I have so you can see that it is sharp enough to out resolve 1080 (found on flickr):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34326258@N03/3838290527/sizes/o/

Hunter Hampton
06-19-2010, 06:07 AM
How is it not mentioned that Hunter has a beautiful studio!

Thanks its actually Motivity Pictures, I just have a desk there. lol.

Kellar42
06-19-2010, 06:08 AM
On the scene settings, for what it's worth, I shot smooth at -2 everything for months based on early forum recommendations, but switched to Nostalgic a couple of months ago and haven't looked back.

Emanuel
06-19-2010, 06:21 AM
That is definatly part of it, the 20mm pancake is extremely high contrast, the only 35mm I have is a pretty old vivitar, but it is quite stopped down and out resolves the HD video modes if you compared it with a still- definatly lower contrast though which makes it seem less sharp I think.f I shot a still with the canon of the same scene with the same lens, it would definatly win. I can call a few friends and try to borrow a zeiss ZF 35mm and do a reshoot.

The main thing I noticed though is that the 5d looks out of focus with any lens compared to the gh1- the nikkor 50mm 1.4 ais is sharp as hell stopped down (first shot) but it still looks soft in HD video mode.Thanks for your input. Yes, it seems the GH1 sharpness is out of question. So, there's no doubt there should be any reason for those #34 samples and outcome. Unfortunately, the Zeiss ZF (AFAIK Zeiss branded, manufactured by Cosina) is not the best as far as CA/color fringing concerns. And we'd be testing with different glass anyways.

The best should be to have the same zoom lens, used in its different focal lengths with one and another. A 16-35mm L, if available, would actually be great.

jenningsp
06-19-2010, 06:51 AM
i'm satisfied with this as a sharpness comparison, even with such different lenses.

all we need now is an ISO/noise comparison for lowlight footage! hint hint :)

Ben_B
06-19-2010, 06:54 AM
I can't decide which mode to shoot in, Nostalgic or SMooth. I just go with Nostalgic and everything dialed down, but it would be nice to be able to dial down further. Maybe turn Noise Reduction OFF and make sure that it's off.

Reduce in camera sharpening to non-existent, those sorts of parameters.

I've been shooting Standard and will keep on shooting it in most situations at least until the blue shift issue is resolved (which it may soon be, the thought is that's what the update from Panasonic is.) Usually contrast -2, sat 0, sharpness +1 (you heard me), and NR -2.

Adventsam
06-19-2010, 06:58 AM
It is in that color space.:laugh:

squig
06-19-2010, 09:44 AM
i'm satisfied with this as a sharpness comparison, even with such different lenses.

all we need now is an ISO/noise comparison for lowlight footage! hint hint :)

It's Kholi's turn. :kiss:

It has to be DOF matched too otherwise it's kinda floored IMO. Whatever ISO on the GH13 vs 1250 ISO on the 5D would be cool. Something like a 50mm @ f/2 vs a 105mm @ f/4-5.6 under street lights.

Adventsam
06-19-2010, 12:50 PM
It's Kholi's turn. :kiss:

It has to be DOF matched too otherwise it's kinda floored IMO. Whatever ISO on the GH13 vs 1250 ISO on the 5D would be cool. Something like a 50mm @ f/2 vs a 105mm @ f/4-5.6 under street lights.

The PanasonicLeica 45mmf2.8 macro is a really nice lens, that against a Canon in the 80mm area f4.5/f5 will give you close equivalents. As you say though set the Canon at iso1250 for exposure and see what you need to do to match with the GH1, would be very interesting.:undecided

Kholi
06-19-2010, 12:53 PM
It's Kholi's turn. :kiss:

It has to be DOF matched too otherwise it's kinda floored IMO. Whatever ISO on the GH13 vs 1250 ISO on the 5D would be cool. Something like a 50mm @ f/2 vs a 105mm @ f/4-5.6 under street lights.

We'll have to see. I'm burned in on PL glass and I need to be able to test it with some T1.3 goodness @ wide ends.

J. Odoms
06-19-2010, 03:22 PM
Hunter Kudos for such an indepth cumparative study. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Emanuel
06-20-2010, 03:06 AM
Edit: Here is a still taken with this same vivitar I have so you can see that it is sharp enough to out resolve 1080 (found on flickr):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34326258@N03/3838290527/sizes/o/Sure, it can handle 1080... It is a 35mm lens after all. LOL :)

The point is what we add when we're comparing capture devices with distinct glass. We cannot accurately compare the sharpness of two cameras when there are different levels of sharpness between both lenses placed there. The difference of quality is quite noticeable, the amount of CA speaks by itself.

Thanks for your effort anyway.

Hunter Hampton
06-20-2010, 09:47 AM
In a perfect world, both would have matched lenses with matched fov, but it just wasnt possible for me. This was the best way I could match FOV (mainly to access realworld DR for the scene) and I hope it gives somewhat of a glipse at the difference between these two cameras; which is; they are more simlar than what we first imagined.

Emanuel
06-20-2010, 11:12 AM
No problem. You did with what you had at your disposal. Much much better than nothing. We could discuss and learn with your test. That's what counts in the end. Without your contribution, this forum would be poorer. If you'll have any chance to add a different approach with another piece of glass suitable for both capture devices in behalf of an add-on to your test, it would be a sweet spot indeed. Thanks again for your entry.

Dalton Boettcher
06-21-2010, 08:28 AM
On the scene settings, for what it's worth, I shot smooth at -2 everything for months based on early forum recommendations, but switched to Nostalgic a couple of months ago and haven't looked back.
I do love the amount of shadow detail Nostalgic at -2 keeps, but I fell in love with how the Smooth mode handles highlights. Nostalgic's highlight handling looks too "digital" in comparison to me. In most situations, I prefer the smooth highlight rolloff and throw a little more light on the shadows when I can. Different strokes.

Oh, and thanks for this test Hunter! Much appreciated!

FoodDude
06-22-2010, 07:49 PM
Soooo... any more tests of GH13 vs 5D2? I'm not gonna lie and try to justify any reasoning and look for excuses, but it really looks like the GH13 is messing up my beloved 5D2 in the video department ..the framegrabs tell me much more than all the excuses and posts I've been reading.

Emanuel
06-23-2010, 02:32 AM
It isn't a surprise at all. Since a year ago, GH1 beats the 5D Mark II in the sharpness or aliasing departments, for example. For some reason, this camera has been preferred to be used rather than the Canons for certain shots. Now, when there is a new codec or a higher bitrate as add-on, would it be helpful to see any comparison tests with the same glass? Yes, indeed.

FoodDude
06-23-2010, 09:06 AM
Hmm... you think it's possible for Tester13 to make a similar hack for the Canon 5D2? Maybe even a feature that only uses the 1.6 crop or 4/3 part of the FF sensor for less aliasing/moire & no line skipping?

...maybe with a lot of donations from all of us??? :) :) :)

Matthew P
06-23-2010, 10:14 AM
Doubtful. The way the 5D firmware works is probably vastly different from that of the GH1.

Remember, all the GH1 hack is doing is changing the codec settings. Trying to get the camera to do something that wasn't in the original firmware is rather wishful thinking, esp. as there's only one guy on the job. It's not as if you can just tell it to crop the image without writing/seriously modifying the code. :)

Besides, no amount of firmware modding will help remove the moire on the 5D, the hardware isn't capable.

With the GH1, the hardware was capable of more. The Canons are pretty maxed out already and there's not much room for improvement.

FoodDude
06-23-2010, 10:50 PM
Would it be a dumb move to replace/trade/sell my 5d2 & ZE glass for a GH13 set up and new glass? The GH13 is really impressing me more and more I research into it.

Barry_Green
06-23-2010, 10:57 PM
Well, the best way to go might be to just add a GH13 to your setup; buy the body-only for $600 or whatever. Problem is, the ZE lenses don't have aperture rings on 'em, and right now while you can easily mount Canon-mount lenses on an m4/3 body like the GH1, there's not any easy way to adjust the aperture on them. I do expect that some enterprising entrepreneur will solve that issue soon, but no idea how soon.

PappasArts
06-25-2010, 12:51 AM
I can't decide which mode to shoot in, Nostalgic or SMooth. I just go with Nostalgic and everything dialed down, but it would be nice to be able to dial down further. Maybe turn Noise Reduction OFF and make sure that it's off.

Reduce in camera sharpening to non-existent, those sorts of parameters.

Kholi,

That's way I shoot with it too. Nostalgic -2 on everything- And I also use iExposure mode on high. Very similar to circuits in high end video cameras, with a different name of course.

Hunter; this was a great test you did, and very insightful..

Pappas

Kholi
06-25-2010, 12:58 AM
Today I shot Smooth with everything dialed down to -2, no iExposure (although I think I could've used it and just forgot to throw it on) and it looked pretty good.

I still need to actually do my own comparisons. Doh.

shiny4
06-25-2010, 02:44 PM
has someone tested this gamma curve for canon 5d?
http://lightillusion.com/canoncurves.htm

electrofilms
07-03-2010, 01:04 PM
buying gamma curves?
that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of...

nyvz
07-17-2010, 10:18 AM
I've heard good things from reputable people about those gamma curves that are for sale. On the other hand, buying curves does seem silly, especially having used Canons Picture Style Editor. After building a few custom curves with it, I quickly realized that any curve made in that program likely to have issues and to be mostly guesswork as the software's curve editor implementation is one of the worst I've ever seen, and the HSL adjustment is nearly as bad. The limitations of the software would significantly hinder anyone's ability to make a worthwhile curve. That combined with the lack of information about the curves on lightillusion's website makes me very skeptical of buying them. The sample images have no skin tones, no high contrast areas, etc. So not much can be judged about these curves without buying them first.

zigizigi
07-29-2010, 08:05 AM
I was always wondering why those Zacuto guys had 9 stops for GH1 against 11 for Canons in their latitude test?

Barry calculated 8 and 1/3 stops in his test.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page25.asp

Dpreview had 8.4 for 5D mark II with the same Stouffer Step Wedge as Barry's.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page25.asp

Hunter's test demonstrates pretty much equal dynamic range. How could it turn out then that Zacuto had different figures?

I guess the clue is that Barry's and dpreview's paper tests as well as Hunter's real world one are REFLECTED light test while Zacuto did theirs with DIRECT light coming though some semitransparent bar thing.

And as we know GH1 has a peculiarity of overexposing the direct light sources such as light bulbs or sun in some halo-ish manner. THAT is what happened to Zacuto guys. The halo around the direct light had eaten a part of dynamic range - the next bar to the brightest one or few of them.

Does this mean that GH1 has shallower dynamic range than Canons? It depends on the situation. If there are direct light sources in the scene it will be technically shallower because of the overexposed areas around the direct lights. But for the scenes like Hunter's there shouldn't be any difference at all.

BTW I also tried to play with contrast and gamma settings of his pics and I have to admit that they're highly tweakable. You can get them as milky as Canon's and even more - there are plenty of details in the shadows. there's only that thing that Pana's pictures have contrastier gamma by default, they're more "baked in". But that's correctable. Which is good.

zigizigi
07-29-2010, 08:22 AM
Here is a Japanese Gh1 vs 550D test that demonstrates exactly what I'm trying to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EGOZEWNzM4

Look at the first few sunset scenes. There's very little difference in cloud details or in shadows around the houses. But then in the take 4 comes the sun! Ta-da! Look at the halo around it and how washed out and flat the cloudy sky becomes. While Canon still maintains the richness of crimson gradients.

Ian-T
07-29-2010, 09:35 AM
BTW I also tried to play with contrast and gamma settings of his pics and I have to admit that they're highly tweakable. You can get them as milky as Canon's and even more - there are plenty of details in the shadows. there's only that thing that Pana's pictures have contrastier gamma by default, they're more "baked in". But that's correctable. Which is good.
I’ve noticed this as well with my new GH-1. I can basically get the same type of “milky” picture with my GH-1 as I did with my previous 7D…but better detail. This was my main concern because that’s what I liked about the Canons and was used to seeing a much more contrast(y) (baked in) image in GH-1 footage from others. Also Nostalgic mode with sharpness turned down gives that smooth look I’m used to from Canon (with no artificial looking edge enhancements).

rambooc1
07-29-2010, 05:23 PM
Shooting with a hood improves the contrast and limits the "milky" look some what, at least that's what i've found using old FD canon lenses. I don't have the kit lens to compare but the newer coatings probably help with this.

R

Pietro Impagliazzo
09-28-2010, 12:02 AM
Nice test.

I just received my GH1 few days ago and probably missed some nice comparative tests in this forum or other places.

Anyone care to share the best ones?!

Thanks.

terra1
10-07-2010, 02:05 PM
great grabs and testing, will take me a good few reads to full understand it all.

what a beautiful location/studio space!

robertjohnsonprojects
10-09-2010, 07:08 PM
Superflat
in post #2

ttp://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3401

robertjohnsonprojects
10-09-2010, 07:09 PM
http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3401

correction

robertjohnsonprojects
10-09-2010, 07:11 PM
superflat
in post #2

http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3401

Pietro Impagliazzo
08-22-2011, 10:06 AM
Hunter, the grabs are off-line. If you have time to reupload them somewhere it would be awesome.

I know it's an old test but Canons still continue to be soft and GH still leads in resolution so a test with this level of control and consistency is a great asset.