Sanken CS1 or AKG ULS Line?

[MattinSTL]

Let's say you have to choose between the AKG 480b/ck63 HYPER or the SANKEN CS1? Then which mic do you go with?

I've got the Oktava cardioids and hypers and I like them pretty much... I tend to enjoy mics with a full, warm sound... which is why I like the 416 so much.

That's also the reason that the CS1 "bothers" me... sure I read everywhere how it's accurate and other mics are unnaturally warm... but I just like how warmer mics sound.

Here's the thing. I'm starting to outgrow that and I just want the best mic for the job. The reason I'm seeking another hyper is for quality interiors. I want the best possible sound in an interior recording... I realize that's a loaded question, but it doesn't have to be.

I already know that the CS1 is more likely to get a clean, resonance free recording in most spaces... but let's say the room is acoustically pretty decent. Would you still reach for the Sanken over say, an AKG ULS?

I know the Schoeps or Mkh50 may be preferable, but I'm almost out of mic budget for one season!

Since I'm not MADE of money... how do I choose?

[Dave_Fisk]

Hmmmm...

I always thought the opposite of the 416. It's brittle and really bright when compared with the MH50, MKH60, CS1 and CS3e.

If you're looking for a good interior mic, then go for the CS1, or the MKH50.

-Dave

[ian lucero]

wow that's not a cheap mic. BH has for $800. Anywhere you can get it for cheap? ebay doesn't have it.

[oleg]

Hmmmm...

I always thought the opposite of the 416. It's brittle and really bright when compared with the MH50, MKH60, CS1 and CS3e.

If you're looking for a good interior mic, then go for the CS1, or the MKH50.

-Dave





bouth of them can work extiriars as well

[oleg]

[quote author=ian_lucero link=board=audio;num=1092616331;start=0#2 date=08/16/04 . BH has for $800. Anywhere you can get it for cheap? ebay doesn't have it.[/quote]
check with Dave :-)

[MattinSTL]

I always thought the opposite of the 416. It's brittle and really bright when compared with the MH50, MKH60, CS1 and CS3e.


Dave, I agree that the CS1 is a good mic for interiors because of it's pattern and smooth sound... but it's anything but warm. Every other mic listed has a frequency response of +/- 1db from at least 60hz to 10Khz. The CS1 drops steadily from 10Khz to 60hz... by 50hz it's more then 6db down. The Mkh50 is within +/- 1db between 50hz and 15Khz. That's half a push of bass on the last 2 bands of my EQ.

All the other mics you listed are WAY warmer then the CS1... and although the CS1 is an EXCELLENT mic for interiors I wouldn't put it in the same league as the Mkh50.

The CS3e is a whole different story... it's way more natural sounding.

The 416 can sound a bit harsh on some voices, but it's also a really warm sounding mic. If anything the complaint I always hear from professionals is that the 416 is TOO warm.

The 416 is almost indistinguishable from the Mkh60 when the 60 is set for no bass roll-off and with the presence peak ON.

Of all these mics I'd say the CS3e is probably the best because it sounds natural and it works well for interiors and exteriors... although any of these mics can do exteriors if conditions are right... but the CS1 won't reach nearly as far as the other shotguns.

The main thing I'm trying to decide on is a better sounding mic indoors. I usually have some control over the interior shots so I don't have to rely on the CS1 pattern to get acceptable sound. Basically I'm just trying to figure out what's the best sounding mic under the Schoeps and Mkh50.

I may still go with the CS1 because I'm thinking that it will yield the best sound mainly because of it's pattern and rejection... but I don't think it's any conincidence that Sanken doesn't show the polar plot for frequencies below 250hz either.

With the ULS line you can set a cut at 70hz or 150hz and then you can really approach the incredible off axis rejection of the Sankens... it's not as good mind you, but the bass cut improves the off axis/rear rejection by at least an additional 5db. So you're looking at 15db rear cut vs. Sanken's 20db rear cut.

I've had a lot of opinions both ways on this... and without the luxury of setting them up and having a direct A/B comparison I'll have to rely on the info you guys can share.

About all I'm going to have for you is an "A" comparison... between the AKG, Oktava, and 416... and maybe the 4073a later... but I prefer to keep it hypers vs. hypers.

I really wish somebody else could go to the trouble to say, "Am I right? Listen to this", and then post some sound clips. I always try to back up my hypothesis with some relatively scientific comparisons... and I'll be MORE THEN HAPPY TO HOST ANYBODY'S SOUND CLIPS ON MY SITE!

You can listen to Bryan Beasleigh's CS1 clips and it's clearly a lot thinner sounding then all the other mics... that's all I have to go on so far! (That and Sanken's own specs)

[Dave_Fisk]

I did my own shoot out with a 416, cs3e, cs1, mkh50, and mkh60 all lined up, and to me, the 416 and cs3e sounded the thinnest and most brittle. The cs1 and mkh50 were a little warmer, in my tests, and were pretty similar. The CS1 is actually a cross between a 416, and an mkh50, based on the tests I did.

I still think the 416 is a thin and brittle sounding mic and not that warm at all, and ok for exteriors, but not the greatest inside. I still think the CS1 or mkh50 is better inside, again based on the tests that I did.

It's all relative. The best way to know which mic is for you is to go and rent them all and do a little shootout of your own. You can ask 10 sound guys which mic is the best for this, and you'll get 20 different answers.

-Dave

[MattinSTL]

Well, I didn't want to post this audio clip 'cause there's some TERRIBLE whistle in it... it's from a bay of high-speed computer fans on top of a WIFI... so there's a major RF thing going too... BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER FOR THIS POINT.

I'm from the "Show Me" State... The clips alternate 416, Oktava, 416, Oktava... then after that each little bite is identified within the clip... the final clip is a Sanken CS1 under the EXACT conditions as the 416 just before it.

Which mic sounds warm and which doesn't?

Click HERE for a quickie showdown of 416, Oktava, Me66, and CS1. (http://www.gettreel.com/The%20Show%20Me%20State.wma)

The whole point of the CS1 is pattern and usability in ANY interior... that's what makes it valuable... and it SMOKES mics like the me66 in EVERY respect... but if it's warm and natural sound you want a 4073a beats it and a 416 beats the 4073a.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but if you've got a sound clip comparison you want me to host I'll be happy to host it. I have NO agenda... I just want the best mic for a given purpose... If you have a sound clip which shows one mic sounding better then another then I'll put my money where my mouth is. I ALWAYS do. Within my mic bag the loser goes to the forum classifieds first... and then ebay if it doesn't sell.

If you read my opening post... I wasn't intending to make this a "which mic SOUNDS better" thread rather then a WHICH MIC IS BETTER thread. If the above clip didn't convince you I can direct you to a bunch more CS1 clips that audibly verify it's thin character. Just because the CS1 doesn't "grab me" with it's sound doesn't matter. It still could be my BEST choice between the mics I'm asking about. That's what I wanted input on.

I started this thread in hopes somebody would relay a story where the PATTERN of the CS1 was a real life-saver... I was hoping somebody would convince me to get the mic I like the sound of less because of that mic's FUNCTION.

OR... OR I was hoping somebody would say, "I have the AKG and I LOVE it... that pattern is pretty good and the mic has been very usable in ALL but the toughest interiors."

Either of those replies would have been very satisfactory for me... but if by listening to my above clip... which shows 3 distinct voices all from unbiased sources... if after listening to that you're still convinced that the 416 isn't a warm mic and that the CS1 IS a warm mic then I guess this thread has to wander off topic for a while. The 416 and CS3e are the warmest shotguns you can get... and the CS1 is even thinner then the $530 At4073a.

The whole reason I love these forums is because I enjoy communicating thoughts and ideas with other people... I hate to see inflammatory posts between people... but in the end the only thing that matters to me on these boards is the truth.

So have a listen and please feel free to debate on this... I hope you haven't taken any of my words as combative.

[Dave_Fisk]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I personally don't listen to these recordings for two reasons:

I really don't know the circumstances the recording was made under.

I didn't make the recording.

This is not meant to be a personal attack, it just goes to show how much personal opinion means to people. If I want to find out which mic works best for me, I'll do a shootout myself, under several circumstances.

To get back to the point....The CS-1 is awesome indoors. It's small, lightweight, and has really really good off axis rejection. I don't particularly care for the 416, but it does work, is very rugged, and is a time approved mic. It's been around for ever, and it seems like most pros have one of these in their kits. I've seen 416's dropped, kicked, and all kinds of other bad stuff happen, and they come through like a champ. Of all the mics we rent, this is probably the most poplular mic. The CS-1 goes out quite a bit, and is very popular. In a couple of years, we'll know how well the CS-1 will stand up. My guess, is if it's anything else like the rest of their stuff, it will hold up well.

If I had my way, it would be a toss up between the Sennheiser MKH50 and the Sanken CS-1 for interiors. I'd probably use the MKH60 or 416 for exterior close shots, and an 816 for the occasional wide.

Either way, ANY of the mics that I have mentioned will work well, and I think anyone would be happy with.

-Dave

[MattinSTL]

Okay... well I hope everybody heard this who wanted to... I don't have permission for some of those voices so I'm going to take it off now.

As I previously said... I'd LOVE to host a clip that YOU make... then you can't doubt anything 'cause it's YOU. I personally guarantee the exact same result.

It's as simple as the specs which each manufacturer gives for their mics. (Yes, I realize that not ALL specs mean everything... but they mean more then some would care to admit.)

Gimme' a recording which proves me wrong. I trust you FULLY. I don't work for anybody and I don't care what mic sounds like what.

When you listen with your own ears and state that it's an opinion which is warm... then state that the recording isn't valid anyway because you didn't make it... then make one. If you think you can make the CS1 sound like a warm mic then do it and share your technique...

I'm in the market to BUY mics... not sell them. I just want more info on which to make decisions.

[Dave_Fisk]

Matt,

You have all the info you need. You have done your own tests, and formulated your own opinions, which is the exact way to do it, and I applaud you for your thoroughness. If I had the time to set up another shootout I would, but I am very busy at work. I appreciate the fact that you want to host recordings from whoever makes them. That's actually really cool of you. If I do have the time, I would like to make a multitrack recording of the same thing using several mics into a Deva V, and make a BWF.P file available for people to download. The only problem is that would be a large file. This way, you could load it into pro tools or nuendo and listen to the same recording from at least 4-8 different mics, and be able to solo through them quickly.

Having been dealing with specs, and microphones intimately for the past several years, I have learned to take spec sheets with a grain of salt. It's interesting to read about max spl and frequency response, but most everything else can be ignored. The real test is listening to the mics under different situations. What happens to a certain mic in very high heat, what about humidity. Frequency response and polar patterns can change ever so slightly under these conditions, and spec sheets don't tell you how, or if they do.

Anyway, like I said, you can't go wrong with any of the mics you tested, really.

-Dave

[MattinSTL]

Thanks Dave. I appreciate your input on this thread and I've always loved shopping Coffey Sound.

If anybody on these boards ever wants me to host an audio file in any format... I'll do it no problem.

I enjoy the journey and education of understanding good sound.

All opinions and input are welcome... especially those of the experienced, such as Dave.