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Svart
06-16-2010, 05:12 PM
I've been having strange card speed errors where I am taking video of a STATIC high detail scene from a tripod.

I get NO card speed errors when hand held or when the scenery moves, such as grass/trees in the wind.

If I capture those same grass/trees when they are perfectly still I get immediate card speed errors with all of my cards regardless of speed.

If I disable native 24p without changing my bitrates, I can capture those same still, high detailed, scenes without card speed errors.

I need people to confirm this before I take it into the main firmware sub-forum.

Thanks

Isaac_Brody
06-16-2010, 07:12 PM
What cards are you using?

JoeJITSU
06-16-2010, 07:42 PM
I think everyone is having some type of card issue depending and brand and speed. I have been observing this. There was one person that had a 32gb patriot class 10 and had some type of problem and another that had a patriot 16gb class 10 with no problem. Strange but I believe it will depend on the settings you are uploading on ptools. I would like to see a seperate thest thread on memory and showing what settings work for which type of memory card.

Svart
06-16-2010, 07:58 PM
I'm using a patriot class 10 and Adata class 6.

The problem I see is that if one of them works, they both work. If one fails, they both fail. I have not had a setting work on the class 10 that did not work on the class 6. This is telling me that it's not a card dependent thing. The only reason that the sandisk cards seem to be working is really only a fluke that they can handle extreme(hence the name) high data rates for short periods of time. This is not a *fix*. it's telling us that there is a problem because the sudden large I frames are not within the normal working bitrates, they are much higher.

My last file before I stopped for the night had an average bitrate of 38mbit/s. It recorded fine on both the class 6 and class 10. I used the same bitrate settings and enabled native 24p. Both cards failed with card speed errors about 15 seconds into recording.

This says to me that the spikes in bitrate that overflow the cards (that aren't sandisk 80$+ cards and can't handle the sudden crazy bursts of I frames gone wild) is *potentially* caused by the native 24p settings.

I don't have a way to test this. If I were to post files of the same footage but one had native 24p and the other was 24p-in-60I could someone analyze these and see if they see a difference?

Isaac_Brody
06-16-2010, 08:11 PM
It could be card related, because neither brand is recognizable. If you're having problems and people are using Sandisk and Panasonic Class 10 without issue I would test another card that people have used successfully.

What exact settings are the problem? Are you resetting your camera settings before applying hacks? Are the cards working when you lower the bitrate?

I would try resetting your settings to default firmware and then starting from scratch again.

Svart
06-16-2010, 09:43 PM
In one of my earlier posts I mentioned that no matter what bitrate I run, if I check native 24p and have a perfectly static, high detail, shot I get a card speed error. this happens even with stock settings and pretty much every bitrate that people have tested. It happens for both cards when native 24p is checked and neither card when native 24p is not checked. This is not normal behaviour for any card regardless of brand. i would think if it was card speed related, I would get at least one set of settings that worked on one card and not the other especially as I moved up in bitrate. That is not the case as both cards fail on the same settings or pass on the same settings only depending on whether I have native 24p enabled. Telling me that I need a specific card isn't really a fix, it's a workaround. We were asked to test in order to make this better. Maybe a card like the sandisk can handle the strange large I frames but the real bitrates are well within these card's classes and thus the reasoning I would like to help figure this out.

Isaac_Brody
06-16-2010, 10:31 PM
It sounds to me like you have off brand cards. It doesn't matter what a card manufacturer lists for specs, it's marketing bullshi*. They can print Class 10 on the cover and it doesn't mean a thing. It's well known that card speeds often have no correlation to specs when it comes to actual performance.

If you're the only one having severe card errors while everyone else is having occasional errors it's probably card related. Of course you won't know until you buy a more known brand like Sandisk or Panasonic.

Barry_Green
06-16-2010, 11:05 PM
And it depends on where you buy them from. There are absolutely fakes out there; if you're getting a "great deal" on some card from ebay, you may very well be buying a fake.

The "class" designation is supposed to be a guaranteed minimum write speed, in megabytes per second.

Try running your cards through CrystalDiskMark and see what it reports for write time.

JoeJITSU
06-17-2010, 12:29 AM
Yea I have a Class 10 Patriot and plan on buying the 32gb Sandisk extreme for my GH1 (soon to be GH1.3. Can you tell me best place to buy one?

nathankw
06-17-2010, 01:19 AM
Just tried this and I've had exactly the same result. I'm using a class 6 Transcend 16gb card, but as you say - this isn't really about the card. The odd thing is that it's triggered by static scenes.

I've used the 32mbps AVCHD setting and found it totally stable until now. I'd assumed that you were most likely to get errors with lots of movement since that will increase the bitrate, so I've been whizzing it around and never got a card error. But when I tried your test I got an error in 3 seconds. The error also caused my cam to hang and I had to pull the battery.

I've got a PAL model and I have the native 24/25p option checked. Haven't tried unchecking it yet.

One question - as a PAL user does the native option give me much advantage? I've never really had a problem with the 50i wrapper since there's no pulldown to remove.



So what's going on? Why should a static scene which should need a lower bitrate cause problems?

Mike@AF
06-17-2010, 01:24 AM
I can confirm an issue with 24pN as well. The 60, 62, 70 settings wouldn't work for me and caused my GH1 to lock up until I removed 24pN. Now it works.

Svart
06-17-2010, 07:49 AM
Vitaliy suggested that we try changing the GOP length from 12 to 15. Apparently the native 24p setting changes the GOP structure(reduces it) and this is likely to be what is causing the problem.

I'll be testing this after work for sure!

Isaac_Brody
06-17-2010, 10:02 AM
Vitaliy suggested that we try changing the GOP length from 12 to 15. Apparently the native 24p setting changes the GOP structure(reduces it) and this is likely to be what is causing the problem.

I'll be testing this after work for sure!

Definitely report back with your findings, it would be great if this was the reason and not off brand cards as I suggested.

Svart
06-17-2010, 11:11 AM
Yes of course. There are only a few memory/interface manufacturers out there. Most cards would be designed around a common "reference design" which is supplied as a suggested design from those same manufacturers. This would mean that most cards would be roughly the same in performance except those who specifically state otherwise, like sandisk. You could very well design a card that can handle much higher speeds but it would cost much more and few devices out there necessitate needing those extremely fast cards. Those would occupy a very small market share compared to the more commodity cards that meet the speed class tests but don't necessarily go much over those speeds.

This is why I don't really think an "off-brand" card should make too much of a difference as the majority of the bitrates I've seen being tested on here should fit well within a standard class 10 card if not a class 6's speed rating.

Of course I could be wrong, and that is the purpose of all this testing, to find out what is really going on.

Svart
06-17-2010, 04:34 PM
So far no GOP setting has been able to make this work for either of my cards. I have tried the range of 10-16. I still get a card speed error for every try.

Svart
06-17-2010, 04:52 PM
I also bumped the bitrates up to the point where I believe a class 6 should fail to test whether I could get a result where the class 10 would pass but the class 6 would fail, to verify that the settings are actually working.

I WAS able to get the class 6 to fail with card speed error while the class 10 did not with these settings:

64M Simplified
72M overall
80M Limiting

Between these two results I believe there is still a problem with the native 24p setting.

PappasArts
06-17-2010, 05:36 PM
Vitaliy suggested that we try changing the GOP length from 12 to 15. Apparently the native 24p setting changes the GOP structure(reduces it) and this is likely to be what is causing the problem.

I'll be testing this after work for sure!

24PN changes the gop length. I wonder to what? If it was 15 at 60 fields video and 24PN is 36 different frames/fields less.

Would this cut the original gop number in half?

Pappas

sammysammy
06-17-2010, 05:43 PM
tried 60,62,70 setting ,GOP not checked , 24p checked .. tested my new sandisk 16gb class 10 30mb/s the gh1 freezes when hitting the record button while in fhd 24p avchd mode I had to take the battery out to make it reset), it records fine in 720p 60 avchd mode..

PappasArts
06-17-2010, 05:51 PM
tried 60,62,70 setting ,GOP not checked , 24p checked .. tested my new sandisk 16gb class 10 30mb/s the gh1 freezes when hitting the record button while in fhd 24p avchd mode I had to take the battery out to make it reset), it records fine in 720p 60 avchd mode..

Yeah those settings froze my camera too. Does this also improve the 720P/60. I thought the patch only improved the 1080P?

Pappas

svecher
06-17-2010, 05:52 PM
24PN changes the gop length. I wonder to what?

See here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...postcount=2612 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2021941&postcount=2612)


24p patch changes GOP from 15 to 12

Mike@AF
06-17-2010, 05:53 PM
tried 60,62,70 setting ,GOP not checked , 24p checked .. tested my new sandisk 16gb class 10 30mb/s the gh1 freezes when hitting the record button while in fhd 24p avchd mode I had to take the battery out to make it reset), it records fine in 720p 60 avchd mode..

I had the same exact issue. Turn off 24pN and it will work. That did it for me. I think there's something wrong with the way 24pN is implemented.

svecher
06-17-2010, 06:19 PM
Yeah those settings froze my camera too. Does this also improve the 720P/60. I thought the patch only improved the 1080P?

I think PTool 3.36 adjusts bitrates for FHD and SHD modes.
FWIW, PTool 3.37d (development version) allows to adjust bitrates for all AVCHD modes (independently too) http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2022001&postcount=2615

svecher
06-17-2010, 07:15 PM
I had the same exact issue. Turn off 24pN and it will work. That did it for me. I think there's something wrong with the way 24pN is implemented.
I can confirm, just tested this with PTool 3.37d
* Version Compare patch
* Video Bitrate Adjustment FHD/SH Simplified -> 60000000
* Overall Bitrate Adjustment -> 62000000
* Limiting Bitrate Adjustment -> 70000000

Nice clean footage in a wrapper. Looks good at low level too (see attachment).
I then ticked off "native 24p/25p" patch in addition to those two above and as soon as I hit record button camera became unresponsive. So something unkosher happens when you go "native"

Svart
06-17-2010, 07:19 PM
I tried a few things but nothing worked. When I adjusted GOP up or down I would get strangely low bitrates, in the single digits, and I would get horrible MUD, etc.

I'll try some more settings but I'm not getting anywhere.

zcream
06-17-2010, 08:08 PM
svecher. Your post is a bit confusing. Do you mean that you could NOT record when you ticked ON 24P ?
And the screengrab is of footage where you did not use 24P ?
Out of curiousity are these problems also seen when people shoot in PAL 25P ? 50i to 25P tends to be less of a problem than 60i to 24P.

svecher
06-17-2010, 08:25 PM
svecher. Your post is a bit confusing. Do you mean that you could NOT record when you ticked ON 24P ?

Correct


And the screengrab is of footage where you did not use 24P ?
Yes


Out of curiousity are these problems also seen when people shoot in PAL 25P ? 50i to 25P tends to be less of a problem than 60i to 24P.This would be a great test. Go for it :)

Park Edwards
06-17-2010, 08:27 PM
it's those settings. those are ridiculous high for the type of card you're using. use these, if it doesn't work. it's your card.

Native 24p
Video bitrate adjustment - 40000000
Overall bitrate adjustment - 46000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment - 50000000

Ozpeter
06-17-2010, 08:42 PM
There's also the pulsing issue discussed in the other thread if you 'go native' (here on PAL).


it's those settings. those are ridiculous high for the type of card you're using. Anyone care to comment on the law of diminishing returns with high settings? For instance, here I'm on 38/40/42 and getting clearly better results compared with standard firmware, on a Panny class 6 card. As you go higher, I suspect that the improvements get more subtle and perhaps less justifiable bearing in mind risk of freezing and need for a bigger card to hold the greater amount of data for each minute of video.

Park Edwards
06-17-2010, 09:04 PM
and i believe Tester answered your question in his thread. change your gop length to 15

Tesselator
06-17-2010, 10:39 PM
Just a few more notes on cards.

Knock-off cards (fakes) typically are not slower or worse in any way having to do with performance. In fact they're often faster than their original counterparts. The bummer with fakes is typically two fold: No warrantee and you're supporting a company with a low sense of ethics. There may also be sort issues (QC) but that's fairly uncommon.

If you're after a budget card I think the A-Data Class 10 cards for $25 at 8GB are pretty awesome! Here's a repost of something I wrote a few days ago in another thread:


"BTW, just wanted to mention that A-Data Class 10 cards are now hitting the shelves at $22 ~ $28 (USD) for an 8GB card and right around $50 for the 16GB ones. I bought two 8GB ones yesterday for $28 ea. - I was thinking of offering to supply them here for DU members only but when I looked around that was also a common price in the US so - just a little heads up... Class 10 cards are [can be] cheap now! (If they weren't before.)


http://tesselator.gpmod.com/Images/_Equipment_n_Tutorials/A-Data_Class10_8GB.jpg

I've already removed the (impossible to open) plastic outer shell but this is what you get for your twenty bucks. I have 12 A-Data CF cards mixed with a bunch of Sandisk cards and they've always been just fine. <shrug> Anyways, I'm not trying to promote any brands or anything but if you're in the market for inexpensive class 10 cards here ya go. These are not to be confused with the "Calss 10 Turbo" cards from A-Data though. http://www.hitechreview.com/cameras/a-data-unveils-turbo-series-sdhc-class-10-memory-card/13170/ - whatever the differences might be.

I just tested the card and the results are in. I used the GH1 camera as a card reader to level the playing field a little bit:


Write File Size: 2,445,121,268

Read Speed: 9.6 MB/s, 76.8 mb/s

Write Speed: 7.6 MB/s, 60.8 mb/s

AJA, and SpeedTools QuickBench confirmed nearly identical results.



Any slowness shown here is probably a result of my very messy USB configuration. :)

svecher
06-18-2010, 06:20 AM
it's those settings. those are ridiculous high for the type of card you're using. use these, if it doesn't work. it's your card.

I disagree, Rich. The same exact settings work without a hitch when native patch is left alone. As soon as you enable it -- boom!

svecher
06-18-2010, 06:21 AM
and i believe Tester answered your question in his thread. change your gop length to 15
I tried this too last night, no luck.

nathankw
06-18-2010, 06:26 AM
Just tried switching off the 24/25p option and sure enough, no more static card errors.
And since I've got a PAL camera I'm not too bothered about native 25p anyway.t
Did a quick quality test and couldn't see any difference.

Thanks for spotting this Svart. It would have got me v.confused if you hadn't worked out the link.

nathankw
06-18-2010, 06:30 AM
Out of curiousity are these problems also seen when people shoot in PAL 25P ? 50i to 25P tends to be less of a problem than 60i to 24P.

Yes, my PAL camera was crashing whenever I filmed a static high detail scene, even though it could cope with fast motion details scenes no problem.

Without the 25p hack it seems to be completely stable (at about 36mbps with my class 6 cards).

No difference in quality that I can see.

Svart
06-18-2010, 06:41 AM
it's those settings. those are ridiculous high for the type of card you're using. use these, if it doesn't work. it's your card.

Native 24p
Video bitrate adjustment - 40000000
Overall bitrate adjustment - 46000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment - 50000000


You're missing the point. This happens at ANY bitrate setting as I've stated before. I even tried it myself at STOCK bitrate settings and it fails just as it does at high bitrates.

The high bitrates were only to verify that the class 10 card is able to record, which it does, and that the class 6 should fail, which it did, in order to verify that the bitrate spikes are not horrendously large, without native 24p, like they are with native 24p enabled.

I might have some more testing results later this evening but I need to gather more data first. I do know that I have not been able to find a GOP setting that works, even setting it for 15 as Vitaliy suggested.

svecher
06-18-2010, 06:58 AM
You're missing the point. This happens at ANY bitrate setting as I've stated before. I even tried it myself at STOCK bitrate settings and it fails just as it does at high bitrates.

The high bitrates were only to verify that the class 10 card is able to record, which it does, and that the class 6 should fail, which it did, in order to verify that the bitrate spikes are not horrendously large, without native 24p, like they are with native 24p enabled.

I might have some more testing results later this evening but I need to gather more data first. I do know that I have not been able to find a GOP setting that works, even setting it for 15 as Vitaliy suggested.

FWIW, I can go as high as PTool C (50,52,60) settings and native without a hitch. So perhaps what happens is a good card (Sandisk Extreme 30MB/s) masking some problems in the native patch at lower bitrates, but falling apart at higher one. With a less speedy card the breaking point will be reached earlier. I'll try some tests to find the upper threshold for this card without native patch.

Also, I tried upping GOP to 15 when native patch is enabled with those settings -- no luck.

tyrone_bigsby
06-18-2010, 07:06 AM
In one of my earlier posts I mentioned that no matter what bitrate I run, if I check native 24p and have a perfectly static, high detail, shot I get a card speed error. this happens even with stock settings and pretty much every bitrate that people have tested. It happens for both cards when native 24p is checked and neither card when native 24p is not checked. This is not normal behaviour for any card regardless of brand..

Late reply (and my 'hello' to the forums, by the way). But maybe it's just your camera? I don't know. I just got my GH1 and I'm running the 3rd party battery, native 24p/25p, and have my settings to jobless' "AVCHD mud-free" settings and everything is running nice and smooth on a 4GB Class 4 SDHC card. That's right, a Class 4 and I'm recording 1080P/24P just fine. Seems like everyeone's results are all over the place though.

Svart
06-18-2010, 07:12 AM
FWIW, I can go as high as PTool C (50,52,60) settings and native without a hitch. So perhaps what happens is a good card (Sandisk Extreme 30MB/s) masking some problems in the native patch at lower bitrates, but falling apart at higher one. With a less speedy card the breaking point will be reached earlier. I'll try some tests to find the upper threshold for this card without native patch.


I believe this to be somewhat true. I believe a Sandisk card can *handle* large spikes in bitrate and is masking the issue. Since the 30mb/s is most likely a peak value(as they claim "up to 30MB/s") and not an average bitrate write speed, it is not known what average speed it can handle and should be comparable to most class 10 cards during most test that don't include large bitrate spikes(like the native 24p).

svecher
06-18-2010, 07:23 AM
I believe this to be somewhat true. I believe a Sandisk card can *handle* large spikes in bitrate and is masking the issue. Since the 30mb/s is most likely a peak value(as they claim "up to 30MB/s") and not an average bitrate write speed, it is not known what average speed it can handle and should be comparable to most class 10 cards during most test that don't include large bitrate spikes(like the native 24p).
Yeah, 30 MB/s is 240 Mbps. I doubt the card is capable of handling such rates in sustained fashion. GH1's SD controller seem to top out at around 100 Mbps anyway, based on PappasArts's high-bitrate MJPEG testing.

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 09:36 AM
then i counter disagree. i simply can't record with those settings and was able to record fine with the lower bitrate and the 24p enabled on an ULTRA II, it's simply your card or your camera. what IS your card again? try changing your preset to standard, all zeros. see if that works. it's odd that a 3/10 are having trouble with these settings and seems to all be narrowed down their cards.

Svart
06-18-2010, 09:48 AM
then i counter disagree. i simply can't record with those settings and was able to record fine with the lower bitrate and the 24p enabled on an ULTRA II, it's simply your card or your camera. what IS your card again? try changing your preset to standard, all zeros. see if that works. it's odd that a 3/10 are having trouble with these settings and seems to all be narrowed down their cards.

Then I counter, counter disagree! I'll go over this again, if I set Ptool to ONLY native 24p I cannot record with the STOCK settings(bitrate changes UNCHECKED IN PTOOL) on either a class 6 card or class 10 card, both of which have worked flawlessly for as long as I've had my camera. These are the stock settings and they will NOT run with the native 24p setting when capturing a static, high detail scene:

16,000,000
18,000,000
20,000,000

How can this be my cards? You are only looking at the high bitrate numbers I posted and have not read that I stated more than once that only enabling 24p(nothing else, no bitrate changes, nothing) causes card speed errors.

The fact is that the ability of the Sandisk cards to handle bitrate spikes is totally masking the fact that the native 24p setting causes extremely high bitrate spikes at any bitrate, including the stock bitrates.

At the high bitrates that I've tried, I've noticed that I can sustain 45mbit easily with my class 6 card and not get card speed errors. This means that there are NO bitrate spikes due to the fact that I never get an error even with sustained class 6 maximum bitrates into the card and can also shoot a static scene without issue. I can also increase the bitrates to the point where the class 6 card will fail due to card speed issues but the class 10 card will record fine. This also means that the bitrate written to the class 10 card is without bitrate spikes. It's all about overhead. We should NOT need to have significant overhead. This means that there is something wrong.

THE HIGH BITRATES WERE MEANT TO TEST THE CARDS TO THEIR MAXIMUM TRANSFER RATES to test their actual limits inside the camera, nothing more.

I'm not sure what else to say here. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself correctly?

Lets not get hung up on the high bitrate settings because those are a red herring to the root cause.

Those testing the Sandisk cards at very high bitrates are attempting to simulate running a slower card.

nathankw
06-18-2010, 09:57 AM
I think part of the confusion is that there definitely are memory card errors caused by the card being too slow for the bitrate. They'll show up when you whip pan the camera around as thats when the bitrate shoots up. I've had lots of those in Mjpeg mode. When I've had them they don't seem to crash the camera - they just halt recording.

But there's a different kind of error. It still shows up as the memory card write speed warning, but it occurs only with particular kinds of static scenes, held for up to 10 seconds. I shot yesterday all day and didn't have a single one of those. But I can create one every time but filming my garden on a tripod. Since the scene is static the bitrates aren't actually that high, yet it still comes up with the error. The error completely hangs the camera requiring a battery removal.

This kind of error seems to be related to native 24/25p. Removing that I don't get those errors even at the same bitrate.

cavie2002
06-18-2010, 10:27 AM
I can also confirm the 24p freeze. Before i had 24p and 28mbits average and it would crash with a static scene and id have to take the battery out. I then changed it to 32mbits and no 24p and i get no crashes at all.

Svart
06-18-2010, 10:28 AM
I think part of the confusion is that there definitely are memory card errors caused by the card being too slow for the bitrate. They'll show up when you whip pan the camera around as thats when the bitrate shoots up. I've had lots of those in Mjpeg mode. When I've had them they don't seem to crash the camera - they just halt recording.

But there's a different kind of error. It still shows up as the memory card write speed warning, but it occurs only with particular kinds of static scenes, held for up to 10 seconds. I shot yesterday all day and didn't have a single one of those. But I can create one every time but filming my garden on a tripod. Since the scene is static the bitrates aren't actually that high, yet it still comes up with the error. The error completely hangs the camera requiring a battery removal.

This kind of error seems to be related to native 24/25p. Removing that I don't get those errors even at the same bitrate.

Yes, when I increased the bitrates to the maximum the cards could handle, I would get the *real* card speed errors. When enabling native 24p I would get the error at any bitrate, even those well within the bitrates the cards can handle.

So yes, it's two different problems with the same outcome, however they can be differentiated by the fact that the card speed error that happens with high bitrates and NO native 24p can be exited from and the camera turned off normally. The error with the native 24p enabled the camera locks up completely.

Can someone with a Sandisk card, do a test for me?

I need two files, one with native 24p, one without, from a static tripod shot of the same high-detailed scene. I'd like the Native 24p file to have a bitrate that is higher than stock but not to the point where it give the card speed error. We need a file that is complete. I would like to see what the actual file difference is when the files are analyzed.

UncleBenji1977
06-18-2010, 10:48 AM
Now I'm getting issues... I'm on the B settings after getting card read errors after 5 seconds on the C settings... Of course I'm running a efilm pro class 6 card. So does the majority feel it has to do with card speed?

Svart
06-18-2010, 10:55 AM
Now I'm getting issues... I'm on the B settings after getting card read errors after 5 seconds on the C settings... Of course I'm running a efilm pro class 6 card. So does the majority feel it has to do with card speed?

What other settings are you running? Are you running the native 24p patch? Did you change GOP settings?

I've been able to run bitrates up to the maximum ratings of all the cards I've tried as long as Native 24p isn't checked and GOP isn't changed.

x_WOrPIG_x
06-18-2010, 10:55 AM
Yes, when I increased the bitrates to the maximum the cards could handle, I would get the *real* card speed errors. When enabling native 24p I would get the error at any bitrate, even those well within the bitrates the cards can handle.

So yes, it's two different problems with the same outcome, however they can be differentiated by the fact that the card speed error that happens with high bitrates and NO native 24p can be exited from and the camera turned off normally. The error with the native 24p enabled the camera locks up completely.

Can someone with a Sandisk card, do a test for me?

I need two files, one with native 24p, one without, from a static tripod shot of the same high-detailed scene. I'd like the Native 24p file to have a bitrate that is higher than stock but not to the point where it give the card speed error. We need a file that is complete. I would like to see what the actual file difference is when the files are analyzed.

What Setting should I clock in for Ptool? C setting?

Svart
06-18-2010, 11:29 AM
Try "b" or "c" since those seem to work for most people.


Thanks!

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 01:44 PM
Then I counter, counter disagree! I'll go over this again, if I set Ptool to ONLY native 24p I cannot record with the STOCK settings(bitrate changes UNCHECKED IN PTOOL) on either a class 6 card or class 10 card, both of which have worked flawlessly for as long as I've had my camera. These are the stock settings and they will NOT run with the native 24p setting when capturing a static, high detail scene:

16,000,000
18,000,000
20,000,000

How can this be my cards? You are only looking at the high bitrate numbers I posted and have not read that I stated more than once that only enabling 24p(nothing else, no bitrate changes, nothing) causes card speed errors.

The fact is that the ability of the Sandisk cards to handle bitrate spikes is totally masking the fact that the native 24p setting causes extremely high bitrate spikes at any bitrate, including the stock bitrates.

At the high bitrates that I've tried, I've noticed that I can sustain 45mbit easily with my class 6 card and not get card speed errors. This means that there are NO bitrate spikes due to the fact that I never get an error even with sustained class 6 maximum bitrates into the card and can also shoot a static scene without issue. I can also increase the bitrates to the point where the class 6 card will fail due to card speed issues but the class 10 card will record fine. This also means that the bitrate written to the class 10 card is without bitrate spikes. It's all about overhead. We should NOT need to have significant overhead. This means that there is something wrong.

THE HIGH BITRATES WERE MEANT TO TEST THE CARDS TO THEIR MAXIMUM TRANSFER RATES to test their actual limits inside the camera, nothing more.

I'm not sure what else to say here. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself correctly?

Lets not get hung up on the high bitrate settings because those are a red herring to the root cause.

Those testing the Sandisk cards at very high bitrates are attempting to simulate running a slower card.

I fully understand what you're saying. I was one of the first people to test the native 24p patches, it worked flawlessly. just because your cards have the magical numbers 6 and 10, doesn't mean anything. and you still haven't posted the type of SanDisk card you have. Just its speeds. I too have a SandDisk Ultra II and it's fine.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 01:50 PM
I fully understand what you're saying. I was one of the first people to test the native 24p patches, it worked flawlessly. just because your cards have the magical numbers 6 and 10, doesn't mean anything. and you still haven't posted the type of SanDisk card you have. Just it's speeds. I too have a SandDisk Ultra II and it's fine.

I disagree that 24pN works flawlessly. Clips are showing up at 23.971fps instead of the proper 23.976fps. That's a flaw. I'm also experiencing the issue with 24pN where I can't record with certain bitrate settings. Remove 24pN and those settings work fine. If anything we should be getting better performance or more stable writing to the card with 24pN because there's less frames per second which means the camera and codec should have more time to write those frames to the card. But we're seeing the opposite. That's a flaw.

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 01:55 PM
the file records at 23.976, just reads .971...straight from tester13's words. so yes, it works. that's really unfortunate it's not working for you guys.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 02:01 PM
My Settings are:

54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE
Sandisk Extreme 8Gig class 10 and Kingston 4gb Class 6

So far ( fingers crossed ) No issues at all; and have shot well over an hour of detailed stuff.


Pappas

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 02:17 PM
the file records at 23.976, just reads .971...straight from tester13's words. so yes, it works. that's really unfortunate it's not working for you guys.

I understand, but the fact that it reads as 23.971 and needs to be fixed for certain NLE's is a flaw. On any other camera that shoots 24p natively this doesn't happen. And all anyone is doing right now is testing. Implemented into an actual project, who knows what the 23.971 reading could cause, especially on longer form projects. We might see audio syncing issues, encoding and transcoding issues, color correction issues (has anyone put any of the 24pN footage through Color or Motion or any other similar apps without first adjusting to read as 23.976?). Who knows what it could cause.

If it was just one person that was experiencing this particular 24pN issue with it not working, then I'd say it's an issue with the card or something like that. But multiple people exhibiting the same result with different cards and a different assortment of settings that otherwise work without 24pN indicates there's something wrong.

Just because it works for some people doesn't mean it's flawless. It has to work for all people in nearly all situations to be flawless.

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 02:25 PM
so is AVCHD a flaw, because some NLE's don't work with that codec? case in point. just because your card isn't working, or others, doesn't mean it's a problem with the patch. especially since a good dozen people couldn't even figure out how to update it to begin with. but, good luck. hope you guys figure something out. i'm glad my card's working.

svecher
06-18-2010, 02:28 PM
My Settings are:

54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE
Sandisk Extreme 8Gig class 10 and Kingston 4gb Class 6

So far ( fingers crossed ) No issues at all; and have shot well over an hour of detailed stuff.

Pappas
Good to know. I'll try those too. Do you mind posting StreamEye screenshot for such a stream.

May I suggest the next test? These choke my card (with 24P Native patch).
60000000
62000000
70000000

svecher
06-18-2010, 02:35 PM
so is AVCHD a flaw, because some NLE's don't work with that codec? case in point. just because your card isn't working, or others, doesn't mean it's a problem with the patch. especially since a good dozen people couldn't even figure out how to update it to begin with. but, good luck. hope you guys figure something out. i'm glad my card's working.

Alright, time out. Please for a moment forget about issues with the cards and read this report.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2023389&postcount=6

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 02:44 PM
so is AVCHD a flaw, because some NLE's don't work with that codec? case in point. just because your card isn't working, or others, doesn't mean it's a problem with the patch. especially since a good dozen people couldn't even figure out how to update it to begin with. but, good luck. hope you guys figure something out. i'm glad my card's working.

No AVCHD is working as it was designed. It's not meant to be used in an NLE, which is why we transcode to something that is good for editing.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 02:53 PM
Good to know. I'll try those too. Do you mind posting StreamEye screenshot for such a stream.

May I suggest the next test? These choke my card (with 24P Native patch).
60000000
62000000
70000000


Hey svecher,

I tried these- and it was with 24PN- Camera crashed-

I was hoping to see this work. I didn't want to use 60i and preferred 24PN for the known reason as native is better.

Pappas

svecher
06-18-2010, 03:00 PM
Hey svecher,
I tried these- and it was with 24PN- Camera crashed-
I was hoping to see this work. I didn't want to use 60i and preferred 24PN for the known reason as native is better.

I prefer to have native progressive output as well, but with native patch it seem we hit speed breaking point at a lower value than when using 60i-wrapper-mode. I'll bet a $100 that with those same exact settings and no 24p native patch your cam will record just fine.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 03:11 PM
I prefer to have native progressive output as well, but with native patch it seem we hit speed breaking point at a lower value than when using 60i-wrapper-mode. I'll bet a $100 that with those same exact settings and no 24p native patch your cam will record just fine.'

Hey Svecher,

Do we take a quality hit, by not going 24PN- Or is there no difference?

44mbits in "C" settings...

With these settings- What is Mbits at?
60000000
62000000
70000000


Pappas

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 03:12 PM
Just tried to shoot a bunch of stuff with the 60/62/70/24pN settings, with a GoP of 15. On a Panasonic Class 10 card, it failed always within 4 seconds, and/or as soon as motion like panning started.

This is my first experience with 24pN not working right. I will go back to the "C" settings with 24pN and try that.

svecher
06-18-2010, 03:26 PM
Do we take a quality hit, by not going 24PN- Or is there no difference?

Since these are just container formats there should not be a quality difference in underlying progressive footage. But then interlaced-wrapper mode takes much higher bitrate settings, so it could be argued that you take a quality hit by enabling 24P and shooting at lower bitrate. This definately needs verification via methodical testing.



44mbits in "C" settings...

With these settings- What is Mbits at?
60000000
62000000
70000000

Pappas
For some reason the avg bitrates on my test footage are around 1/2 the limiting bitrate setting. Most likely because I don't have enough detail in test scenes. I'm heading out to climb some rock tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to test in outdoor conditions.

svecher
06-18-2010, 03:28 PM
Just tried to shoot a bunch of stuff with the 60/62/70/24pN settings, with a GoP of 15. On a Panasonic Class 10 card, it failed always within 4 seconds, and/or as soon as motion like panning started.

Hmm, at least you are getting 4 seconds worth of stuff. Would be interesting if you could stop recording before camera freezes and analyze that footage at low level.

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 03:33 PM
I got a couple of clips that are one-second or 1.5 seconds long before the camera locked up.

Camera locks up and you can't even turn it off, you have to pull the battery. And doing so, you lose the partial clip.

But I did get a couple of clips...

bwwd
06-18-2010, 03:33 PM
looks like svart is right,it cant be just coincidence.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 03:52 PM
Hmm, at least you are getting 4 seconds worth of stuff. Would be interesting if you could stop recording before camera freezes and analyze that footage at low level.

Just shoot a ( Star Chart ) full frame from a high res computer monitor. I have always done that to spike a bit rate or do a quick tests for one reason or another. It will usually get you there within 90+ percent of a high detail scene without having to go out and film one every time you need to run a test.

Tip- when focusing on the star chart get the lines to a crispy jaggie dance- move the camera in circular motions as well swaying it, this will get the VBR going. Also if you shoot at 1600 ISO that also with push the bit rate even more when filming the star chart off a screen. This also allows you to shoot a extreme stops like f16 so it's as crisp as its gonna get. Extreme yes, and it ain't pretty, but it works for hitting the codec ceiling for testing.

Pappas


Pappas

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 03:57 PM
I got a couple of clips that are one-second or 1.5 seconds long before the camera locked up.

Camera locks up and you can't even turn it off, you have to pull the battery. And doing so, you lose the partial clip.

But I did get a couple of clips...

Barry try these:

My Settings are:
54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE

No issues at all. I have filmed well over an hour of very crispy details.

I don't know how to check the bit rate of these mts files to see what these numbers are doing.


Pappas

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 04:02 PM
Since these are just container formats there should not be a quality difference in underlying progressive footage. But then interlaced-wrapper mode takes much higher bitrate settings, so it could be argued that you take a quality hit by enabling 24P and shooting at lower bitrate. This definately needs verification via methodical testing.


For some reason the avg bitrates on my test footage are around 1/2 the limiting bitrate setting. Most likely because I don't have enough detail in test scenes. I'm heading out to climb some rock tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to test in outdoor conditions.

So your average is 35mbits in low detail?

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 04:02 PM
svart is suggesting he can't get any results on any settings using the native patch. i also suggested lowering the values. guess that got overlooked.

or is this now a "i can't use the 24p patch with these settings" question vs the original "I can't use the 24p patch on any settings"

Svart
06-18-2010, 04:12 PM
Patriot LX class 10 card, tripod, static(no movement at all), high-detail scene(grass), 200 ISO, 0 exposure:

"B" settings
NO native 24p
32,000,000
34,000,000
40,000,000
WORKS OK 1080i and 720p 152.bin /some mud still present.

"B" settings
Native 24p
32,000,000
34,000,000
40,000,000
FAIL card speed error class 6 and 10 after 5 seconds 148.bin

"B" settings
Native 24p
32,000,000
34,000,000
40,000,000
GOP=14
FAIL 1080/720 card speed error after 5 seconds 163.bin

"B" settings
Native 24p
32,000,000
34,000,000
40,000,000
GOP=15
FAIL 1080/720 card speed error after 4 seconds 161.bin


"B" settings
Native 24p
32,000,000
34,000,000
40,000,000
GOP=16
FAIL 1080/720 card speed error after 7 seconds 162.bin

"B" settings
Native 24p
32,000,000
34,000,000
40,000,000
GOP=17
FAIL 1080/720 card speed error after 6 seconds 164.bin

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 04:13 PM
Is the "limiting bit rate" the floor that the codec won't go any lower?

Svart
06-18-2010, 04:17 PM
svart is suggesting he can't get any results on any settings using the native patch. i also suggested lowering the values. guess that got overlooked.

or is this now a "i can't use the 24p patch with these settings" question vs the original "I can't use the 24p patch on any settings"

No, if you read back I said I can't use the Native 24p patch with ANY bitrate settings, INCLUDING the stock settings. How many times do I need to repeat that? That translated says: "i've ALREADY tested ALL STOCK and A/B/C settings and cannot get any of them to work with the Native 24p settings IF the video is of a highly detailed STATIC picture". IF there is any movement in the frame, I can record as long as I want on just about any bitrate up to the limit of the class of card I am recording to. I can also record as long as I want to with just about any bitrate I want to without the Native 24p setting enabled, up to the point where the bitrate is too much for the card, then I get a legitimate card speed error.

Car3o, c'mon man, I'm trying to help out here. Don't try to negate what I'm seeing and trying to report on, that's not helpful to Vitaliy or the other testers.

I just posted my results for the "B" Ptool settings back a few posts.

Svart
06-18-2010, 04:18 PM
Is the "limiting bit rate" the floor that the codec won't go any lower?

I think it's supposed to be the highest of video+audio bitrates. I'm not sure though.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 04:26 PM
To be clear, I can get 24pN to work, but not on all settings. I'm leaving 24pN off until this all gets cleared up. It's not that huge a deal to me to L&T my shots then throw them into Compressor for pulldown. I've been doing that for months now already anyways.

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 04:27 PM
Barry try these:

My Settings are:
54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE
Yep, those work.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 04:27 PM
I think it's supposed to be the highest of video+audio bitrates. I'm not sure though.

That makes sense to me.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 04:29 PM
I really wish we knew what the correlation of the settings were to the actual bitrate it ends up shooting at.

Also, does it makes sense that if all 3 settings were identical we'd get constant bitrate? Has anyone tried it?

Svart
06-18-2010, 04:29 PM
To be clear, I can get 24pN to work, but not on all settings. I'm leaving 24pN off until this all gets cleared up. It's not that huge a deal to me to L&T my shots then throw them into Compressor for pulldown. I've been doing that for months now already anyways.

Are you using a Sandisk card?

Do you have another, non-sandisk, card to try out with the same settings?

It's a pretty sure bet that there are bitrate spikes that the Sandisk cards can swallow due to their high bitrate ratings, however I just can't accept buying a 90$ card to mask a problem when the problem could be fixed and allow people to use a 20$ card instead.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 04:38 PM
Yes, I'm using 4GB Sandisk Extreme II Class 6 cards. I've been considering buying a couple 32GB or 16GB Extreme III Class 10 cards, but I'm going to wait until there's more conclusive tests showing that going beyond the C settings (which works for me with and without 24pN) actually improves picture quality. Or if some other development with the hack gets rid of banding and/or FPN, 422 in AVCHD (unlikely I'm guessing), and/or 24p in MJPEG and requires a faster card. Right now nothing is conclusive since this is all still being tested and explored, and there's variations in results with even Class 10 cards, so I'm holding off.

Hopefully those prices will start to come down too, which is likely now that there's SDXC.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 04:41 PM
I really wish we knew what the correlation of the settings were to the actual bitrate it ends up shooting at.

Also, does it makes sense that if all 3 settings were identical we'd get constant bitrate? Has anyone tried it?

That's interesting idea! A constant bit rate- that would great if so.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 04:48 PM
Yep, those work.

Thanks for checking Barry- I'm getting good detail out of these settings so far. I'm gonna up them a little bit at a time.

Here's a frame from an anamorphic test. Though this level of anamorphic glass is a detail thief; this
added boost in quality to the codec is showing less of that, and giving it as much as it can back.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 05:25 PM
That's interesting idea! A constant bit rate- that would great if so.

If I were to test it, assuming it actually records, how would I know if it's constant bitrate or not? I'm on a Mac and use FCP.

Lpowell
06-18-2010, 05:43 PM
My Settings are:
54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE

I just tried these settings in AVCHD 720p 30fps and 1080p 24fps, using a Lumix 45-200mm auto-focus zoom. Panning across a field of grass, 720p recorded properly, but 1080p failed with an SD card writing speed error. I tested a Class 6 Transend 16GB SD card and a Class 10 Sandisk 16GB - both failed in the same manner.

Under the same test conditions, I have found the following AVCHD settings to work properly without any failures so far:

Video bitrate Simplified 50000000
Overall bitrate adjustment 52000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment 6000000
Native 24p
720p 59.94fps -> 29.97fps
720p GOP length 15
1080p GOP length 12

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 05:47 PM
No, if you read back I said I can't use the Native 24p patch with ANY bitrate settings, INCLUDING the stock settings. How many times do I need to repeat that? That translated says: "i've ALREADY tested ALL STOCK and A/B/C settings and cannot get any of them to work with the Native 24p settings IF the video is of a highly detailed STATIC picture". IF there is any movement in the frame, I can record as long as I want on just about any bitrate up to the limit of the class of card I am recording to. I can also record as long as I want to with just about any bitrate I want to without the Native 24p setting enabled, up to the point where the bitrate is too much for the card, then I get a legitimate card speed error.

Car3o, c'mon man, I'm trying to help out here. Don't try to negate what I'm seeing and trying to report on, that's not helpful to Vitaliy or the other testers.

I just posted my results for the "B" Ptool settings back a few posts.

stock settings are normally conveyed as the settings that come in camera. you're getting way too emotional guy. if you can't use the 24p patch with any settings it's YOUR card or camera. how many times must that be repeated? but nevertheless, no point in going back and forth over this. hope you get it all sorted out.

and it could help to mention if shooters mention their shutter speed and their preset, whether it's standard, nostalgia, etc...it might have to do with why yours isn't working. one tiny setting may be wrong. also, if you haven't already, format the card in camera, or format the card on the computer and see if that changes.

Svart
06-18-2010, 06:10 PM
stock settings are normally conveyed as the settings that come in camera. you're getting way too emotional guy. if you can't use the 24p patch with any settings it's YOUR card or camera. how many times must that be repeated? but nevertheless, no point in going back and forth over this. hope you get it all sorted out.

and it could help to mention if shooters mention their shutter speed and their preset, whether it's standard, nostalgia, etc...it might have to do with why yours isn't working. one tiny setting may be wrong.


You are missing the statement I made about movement. How many times does that have to be repeated?

Just about EVERY clip I've seen has folks wildly waving their cameras around like crazy, which I can do just fine too with Native 24p enabled. It's when the scene I am shooting is perfectly still. That's when I get the card speed error.

I'll repeat, It's ONLY when the high detail scene is perfectly still. No wind, no birds, no people, no cars, nothing moving. If there is so much as a blade of grass moving around or a bug crawling on the ground in the shot, I don't get the errors.

How can it be my card or camera when I only get failures like this ONLY with Native 24p enabled?

I have also reset my camera many times, with and without custom in-camera settings, it doesn't matter. this doesn't work right no matter what I do.

All I'm saying is someone needs to look at this.

And Car3o, I'm not taking this personally and I don't mean to sound angry or anything, I just get frustrated when folks just brush comments aside because they don't see the same issue. I'm an EE and I deal with problems that other people don't see for a living so I kinda tune in on issues that have patterns, and this one definitely does.

I literally have 42 unique firmware files sitting on my desktop right now from trying all of these combinations. That's not to mention the 20 or so I deleted already. I've been doing one change at a time and trying it.

Once we have a pair of files from someone to compare and analyze I think we might shed some light on the issue.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 06:10 PM
I just tried these settings in AVCHD 720p 30fps and 1080p 24fps, using a Lumix 45-200mm auto-focus zoom. Panning across a field of grass, 720p recorded properly, but 1080p failed with an SD card writing speed error. I tested a Class 6 Transend 16GB SD card and a Class 10 Sandisk 16GB - both failed in the same manner.

Under the same test conditions, I have found the following AVCHD settings to work properly without any failures so far:

Video bitrate Simplified 50000000
Overall bitrate adjustment 52000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment 6000000
Native 24p
720p 59.94fps -> 29.97fps
720p GOP length 15
1080p GOP length 12


1080p GOP should be deselected- Keep it unchecked.

Did you mess with audio bit rate?

Deselect any patches to 720P. Focus on 1080P.

Format both cards and run the test again. All manual mode. No auto focus or stabilizer- Nothing. Straight manual. Lets see what happens.

Barry tried my settings, they worked for him as well. I have shot tons of stuff. So there's a cog in the wheel somewhere that's causing the issue- lets find it.

Pappas

Svart
06-18-2010, 06:13 PM
Thanks for checking Barry- I'm getting good detail out of these settings so far. I'm gonna up them a little bit at a time.

Here's a frame from an anamorphic test. Though this level of anamorphic glass is a detail thief; this
added boost in quality to the codec is showing less of that, and giving it as much as it can back.


Pappas, that's very similar to the scene I am shooting. If you are shooting on a Sandisk and that is working, do you have another brand card you could try with those same settings and that same scene?

Your settings of:

54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000

should be well within a class 10's ability to record.

Svart
06-18-2010, 06:15 PM
I just tried these settings in AVCHD 720p 30fps and 1080p 24fps, using a Lumix 45-200mm auto-focus zoom. Panning across a field of grass, 720p recorded properly, but 1080p failed with an SD card writing speed error. I tested a Class 6 Transend 16GB SD card and a Class 10 Sandisk 16GB - both failed in the same manner.

Under the same test conditions, I have found the following AVCHD settings to work properly without any failures so far:

Video bitrate Simplified 50000000
Overall bitrate adjustment 52000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment 6000000
Native 24p
720p 59.94fps -> 29.97fps
720p GOP length 15
1080p GOP length 12

Your class 6 is probably getting choked by the 68mbit bitrate. That's likely too much. The max I could get out of my class 6 card was around 58mbit before it puked.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 06:19 PM
if you can't use the 24p patch with any settings it's YOUR card or camera.

I gotta agree, If all else is equal, then it's got to be your either one or both.

That's said lets work to figure it out, and not squabble. We're all part of a global team guys- doing something that is unbelievably amazing. In all my years in this biz, I've never seen anything like this. At the end the road, we all want the same thing , one way or another..

We'll get this figured out...

Pappas

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 06:22 PM
Your class 6 is probably getting choked by the 68mbit bitrate. That's likely too much. The max I could get out of my class 6 card was around 58mbit before it puked.

How can I find out the bit rate of my settings?

In my MJPEG footage., it was easy with QT.

Svart
06-18-2010, 06:37 PM
I gotta agree, If all else is equal, then it's got to be your either one or both.

That's said lets work to figure it out, and not squabble. We're all part of a global team guys- doing something that is unbelievably amazing. In all my years in this biz, I've never seen anything like this. At the end the road, we all want the same thing , one way or another..

We'll get this figured out...

Pappas


Well it's not equal and never can be because enabling or disabling Native 24p makes things unequal.

Everything else is equal.

Here is my exact sequence:

1. camera set to 1/50( also tested 60,125), 200 ISO(also tested 100, 250, 300, 640) FHD/HD(both give exactly the same errors in the same way).
2. camera set on tripod, focused at grass, NO movement, exposure set to 0.
3. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with stock firmware. NO Native 24p.
4. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with only "A" bitrate settings. NO Native 24p.
5. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with only "B" settings. NO Native 24p.
6. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with only "C" settings. NO Native 24p.
7. class 6 card FAILS and class 10 PASSES with these settings verifying that bitrate is truly higher than Class 6 card can handle. This was intentional and proves that the bitrate settings are truly working.

no native 24p
64M
72M
80M

8. Did not test above 80Mbit.

9. class 6 and class 10 cards PASS with stock firmware bitrate settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is moving.

10. class 6 and class 10 cards PASS with "A" settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is moving.

11. class 6 and class 10 cards PASS with "B" settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is moving.

12. class 6 and class 10 cards PASS with "C" settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is moving.

13. class 6 card fails and class 10 PASSES with these settings verifying that bitrate is truly higher than Class 6 card can handle. This was intentional proves that the bitrate settings are truly working.

native 24p enabled
64M
72M
80M
Camera IS moving

14. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is NOT moving.

15. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with "A" settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is NOT moving.

16. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with "B" settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is NOT moving.

17. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with "C" settings and Native 24p enabled while camera is NOT moving.

18. class 6 and 10 cards FAIL with these settings:

native 24p enabled
64M
72M
80M
Camera NOT moving

19. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=12 while camera is NOT moving.
20. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=13 while camera is NOT moving.
21. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=14 while camera is NOT moving.
22. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=15 while camera is NOT moving.
23. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=16 while camera is NOT moving.
24. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=17 while camera is NOT moving.
25. class 6 and class 10 cards FAIL with stock firmware bitrate settings with Native 24p enabled and GOP=18 while camera is NOT moving.

As you can see, it's related to the 24p patch and having a perfectly static scene. And YES, I understand that a Sandisk card would essentially make this work, but that's not the point. The point here is that bitrates clearly within the Class 6 and Class 10 card's ratings are NOT working with the 24p patch enabled and a static scene yet they DO work while the camera is moving. Even holding it by hand is enough to make it work.

Kellar42
06-18-2010, 06:38 PM
Re: Pappas, Do you have toast? 'Show stream info' as you playback in Toast Video player will give you real time bit-rate information on .mts files.

svecher
06-18-2010, 06:39 PM
How can I find out the bit rate of my settings?

In my MJPEG footage., it was easy with QT.
Download 30-day trial of Elecard StreamEye at http://www.elecard.com/download/ . It's the best tool we have ATM.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 06:49 PM
Well it's not equal and never can be because enabling or disabling Native 24p makes things unequal.

Everything else is equal.

Here is my exact sequence:

1. camera set to 1/50( also tested 60,125), 200 ISO, FHD.
2. camera set on tripod, focused at grass, NO movement, exposure set to 0.
3. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with stock firmware.
4. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with only "A" bitrate settings.
5. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with only "B" settings.
6. class 6 and class 10 cards record normally with only "C" settings.
7. class 6 card fails and class 10 PASSES with these settings verifying that bitrate is indeed higher than Class 6 card can handle:

no native 24p
64M
72M
80M


This is confusing. In 3-6 you say Class 6 and Class 10 record normally. But then in #7 you say Class 6 fails and Class 10 passes. This seems to be contradictory.

EDIT: Nevermind. I think you mean you record normally with movement, not that the camera actually records. Is that right?

Svart
06-18-2010, 06:55 PM
This is confusing. In 3-6 you say Class 6 and Class 10 record normally. But then in #7 you say Class 6 fails and Class 10 passes. This seems to be contradictory.

EDIT: Nevermind. I think you mean you record normally with movement, not that the camera actually records. Is that right?


What I mean is that I intentionally set the bitrate high enough to cause the class 6 card to give me a "true" card speed error in order to test that the bitrate changes do indeed give us the bitrate we ask for.

The class 6 can is only rated for ~48mbit/s. By trying to cram it with 64-80mbits I know that it should fail which also proves that the 24p patch is somehow giving us spikes of data beyond 48mbits. Because the class 10 card fails as well with 24p enabled means that the bitrate spikes must be higher than ~80mbits. Because the Sandisk cards can take 240mbits and they do NOT fail that means the actual bitrate spike is somewhere between ~80mbits and ~240mbits.

I edited what I wrote to hopefully make it a little clearer.

svecher
06-18-2010, 07:10 PM
I am shooting is perfectly still. That's when I get the card speed error.

This is very interesting, Svart. I took Pappas' advice and shot a full-screen Star Chart (http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/star-chart-bars144-600dpi.png) with 20mm lens and GH1 mounted on a tripod with the following settings:
60000000
62000000
70000000

And got the famous "Motion Recording Stopped due to Card Speed" error within a couple of second (I've never seen it before). StreamEye reports 57 Mbit/s avg bitrate on such footage. Interestingly, when shooting the chart hand-held (with associated micro-movement) the camera will keep on recording. Shouldn't static scenes have lower bitrates "theoretically" as there is no movement in the image? So there seem to be two issues going on here:
1) Enabling the native patch causes camera to freeze up at bitrates dependent upon the card used and scene composition.
2) At high bitrate settings and when shooting static scenes the bitrate seems to shoot through the roof causing cancellation of recording, but not freezing the camera.

Svart
06-18-2010, 07:17 PM
This is very interesting, Svart. I took Pappas' advice and shot a full-screen Star Chart (http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/star-chart-bars144-600dpi.png) with 20mm lens and GH1 mounted on a tripod with the following settings:
60000000
62000000
70000000

And got the famous "Motion Recording Stopped due to Card Speed" error within a couple of second (I've never seen it before). StreamEye reports 57 Mbit/s avg bitrate on such footage. Interestingly, when shooting the chart hand-held (with associated micro-movement) the camera will keep on recording. Shouldn't static scenes have lower bitrates "theoretically" as there is no movement in the image? So there seem to be two issues going on here:
1) Enabling the native patch causes camera to freeze up at bitrates dependent upon the card used and scene composition.
2) At high bitrate settings and when shooting static scenes the bitrate seems to shoot through the roof causing cancellation of recording, but not freezing the camera.


Bingo!

Yes that is exactly what I am seeing. Handheld= OK. Tripod= fail.

That's why I think people are believing that it's the cards or camera, because this failure is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you would think *should* be happening. It would make no sense whatsoever if you haven't seen it yourself.

Try lower bitrate settings, maybe even STOCK settings, and see if you can recreate my failures.

If someone else can recreate my failures on a different camera, then we know it's not MY camera. If anyone can recreate the failures with different cards then we know it's not my cards and it's a legit problem.


EDIT: Svecher, I just did the same experiment with the chart. I installed a firmware with Native 24p Enabled and then I setup the camera in front of my monitor so that the chart filled the camera's VF. I hit record and 7 seconds later I get the speed error!

EXCELLENT. This means we now have a chart that we can all use to test the same way!

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 07:28 PM
Re: Pappas, Do you have toast? 'Show stream info' as you playback in Toast Video player will give you real time bit-rate information on .mts files.

Hey Stuart

No I don't have toast. Thanks for the suggestion though.



Download 30-day trial of Elecard StreamEye at http://www.elecard.com/download/ . It's the best tool we have ATM.

Hey svecher,

Thanks, I'll check it out.


VLC reports bit rates data, however is that reliable info?



Pappas

Lpowell
06-18-2010, 07:31 PM
1080p GOP should be deselected- Keep it unchecked.

Did you mess with audio bit rate?

Deselect any patches to 720P. Focus on 1080P.

Format both cards and run the test again. All manual mode. No auto focus or stabilizer- Nothing. Straight manual. Lets see what happens.

Barry tried my settings, they worked for him as well. I have shot tons of stuff. So there's a cog in the wheel somewhere that's causing the issue- lets find it.
No, I didn't change audio bitrate or GOP length when testing your high bitrate AVCHD settings. And since I wanted to see if it worked without write errors on class 6 and class 10 SD cards, I used an auto-focus + image stabilizing Lumix lens on a highly detailed panning shot as a worst-case test.

Sorry, but my testing priorities are somewhat different than yours. I want to find the highest reliable AVCHD bitrate settings that can be used with any lens or subject matter. In addition, I want to film with 1080p in native 24p and 720p at 30fps in order to streamline my post-processing workflow.

GOP length is a more subtle issue, as it affects image quality only during panning or with moving subjects. I think StreamEye can be helpful in evaluating GOP length. What it shows me is that with slow panning, I-frames are allocated about twice as many bits as each P-frame. But with fast panning, P-frame size increases, and I-frame size drops to about the same as a P-frame. I suspect this is because the AVCHD encoder has maxed out its bit allocation on the P-frames and has to cut back on I-frame quality.

What I think would be undesireable is if P-frame bit allocation consistently exceeded the size of the I-frame. That would indicate that it actually required more bits to encode the difference between the P-frame and the I-frame than it would take to encode the P-frame as an I-frame. Unfortunately, it appears that the encoder is unable to dynamically insert I-frames as needed, but is instead locked into the specified GOP length.

Given that restriction on the encoder, I think the best policy is to find the shortest reliable GOP length that does not cause excessive P-frame bit allocation. That should enable the encoder to handle fast motion and panning with less image degradation than with a long GOP length.

With GOP length set at 15 for 30fps and 12 for 24fps, each GOP is 0.5 seconds long. That seems pretty reasonable and so far, I haven't seen any excessive P-frame sizes in test clips I examined in StreamEye.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 07:38 PM
Bingo!

EXCELLENT. This means we now have a chart that we can all use to test the same way!

I wish I mentioned this before today. I've been using this testing method for years.


Very interesting thing, the only error I have ever had was when it was on a tripod. It was my MJpeg vs AVCHD. The same shot stopped on both AVCHD and MJPEG...

I told you; ""We'll get this figured out...""


Pappas

Svart
06-18-2010, 07:41 PM
I wish I mentioned this before today. I've been using this testing method for years.


Very interesting thing, the only error I have ever had was when it was on a tripod. It was my MJpeg vs AVCHD. The same shot stopped on both AVCHD and MJPEG...

I told you; ""We'll get this figured out...""


Pappas

I have no doubt we will. We just have to get everyone on the same page first.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 07:44 PM
Can you post a frame grab so we have an example of the kind of shot that's causing this?

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 07:56 PM
I have no doubt we will. We just have to get everyone on the same page first.


I just shot C and my new settings with the star chart at 1/40th- 1600ISO 35mm Nikkor at f16 - Class 10 Extreme- Got the card error. Have been shooting well over an hour of test footage between yesterday and today, and not a single ( other than the one in the MJPEG vs AVCHD) tell now- shooting the star chart.

So this should be passed on to Vitaliy- as I'm confident it's something in the camera.....

Pappas

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 07:59 PM
I just shot C and my new settings with the star chart at 1/40th- 1600ISO 35mm Nikkor at f16 - Class 10 Extreme- Got the card error. Have been shooting well over an hour of test footage between yesterday and today, and not a single ( other than the one in the MJPEG vs AVCHD) tell now- shooting the star chart.

So this should be passed on to Vitaliy- as I'm confident it's something in the camera.....

Pappas

Why are you shooting 1/40th? I thought we're supposed to shoot 1/50th to get proper 24p?

Svart
06-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Can you post a frame grab so we have an example of the kind of shot that's causing this?


I've been shooting foliage like what Pappas shot in this post:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2023859&postcount=81

But I just found that the chart that Svecher linked to will also cause the same error.:

http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/star-chart-bars144-600dpi.png



Just set up your camera in front of you monitor so that the chart fills the whole field, focus well and record with Native 24p enabled and you should see the error.

EDIT: I always shoot 1/50 or 1/125 usually but I've found that it'll happen no matter what shutter you use.

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 08:01 PM
Re: Pappas, Do you have toast? 'Show stream info' as you playback in Toast Video player will give you real time bit-rate information on .mts files.
On Nero Showtime it tells you the bitrate also. On the Pappas settings I just re-set to, it shows about 48mbps on a highly detailed forest scene, panning around like a madman.

Indoors, low light, on a low-detail scene, it shows about 10mbps, equally panning like a ninny.

Pappas, you're on Windows, yes? You can get a basic mbps just by right-clicking on the filename, going to "properties", then "details".

The clips that were choking on me before show about 49mbps. One of them, that didn't choke, I successfully recorded for 10 seconds, showed about 28mbps. With major "codec pulsing".

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 08:20 PM
Pappas, you're on Windows, yes? You can get a basic mbps just by right-clicking on the filename, going to "properties", then "details".
.

Hey Barry,

I have both PC and Mac. When I go to properties- I don't have the details tab. Is that a win7 feature?

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 08:23 PM
Why are you shooting 1/40th? I thought we're supposed to shoot 1/50th to get proper 24p?

Hey Mike,

It's didn't matter since I was trying to crank up the bit rate as high as it will go. However I re-shot the chart so we have our t's crossed and i's dotted. It got the card write error...


Papaps

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 08:25 PM
I've been shooting foliage like what Pappas shot in this post:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2023859&postcount=81

But I just found that the chart that Svecher linked to will also cause the same error.:

http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/star-chart-bars144-600dpi.png



Just set up your camera in front of you monitor so that the chart fills the whole field, focus well and record with Native 24p enabled and you should see the error.

EDIT: I always shoot 1/50 or 1/125 usually but I've found that it'll happen no matter what shutter you use.

Hey Svart, are you getting that error with the chart on 60i wrapper? Or is this error just on the 24PN?

Pappas

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 08:36 PM
When I go to properties- I don't have the details tab. Is that a win7 feature?
Might be; this computer I'm on is running Windows 7...

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Might be; this computer I'm on is running Windows 7...

I bet that's it. VLC's gives bit rates. However I don't know if there accurate.

Kellar42
06-18-2010, 08:55 PM
Not sure I'm following all of this, but I just shot that chart twice, once locked down, once just holding it...with an FD 50mm at 5.6 aperture at 100 ISO 50 shutter and didn't have any recording errors, playback errors, etc. C settings, native 24p. Panny Class 10 16gb card.

Mike@AF
06-18-2010, 09:38 PM
Hey Svart, are you getting that error with the chart on 60i wrapper? Or is this error just on the 24PN?

Pappas

I'll answer for him. It's just 24pN.

PappasArts
06-18-2010, 09:51 PM
I'll answer for him. It's just 24pN.

Ok, time to try the higher bit rate settings with the 60i wrapper. Damn! I like 24PN......

Pappas

Svart
06-18-2010, 09:54 PM
I'll answer for him. It's just 24pN.

Ha!

Thanks, yes I just ran this test again and I do not get the card speed error when Native 24p is not enabled.

Park Edwards
06-18-2010, 11:00 PM
Svart, are you saying you get this error without applying any bitrate settings? Just the native 24p only? As I have at least a dozen of files on a tripod with the 24p patch and never had this problem. I can even post the .mts files.

mimirsan
06-18-2010, 11:11 PM
I too discovered this after reading the thread I'd thought I give it a try.

I put my gh on a tripod and shot the backgarden static ...it ran for about 30 seconds...write error...second time...36 seconds...write error.
I use generic "c" settings on ptool.
If I move the camera around I never get a write error and would continue to record.

I installed new firmware without 24/25p native ticked...camera same position...and it recorded continuous with no issues.

I beleive there is a problem with 24/25p patch rather than just blaming card speed issues (im using a extreme III class 10 that handles 80mbs mjpeg with no problem).

Were all been testing and giving reports so this odd little issue should be reported to vitaliy

Phil Seastrand
06-18-2010, 11:21 PM
This is also happening to me. I had to go to manual focus to get it to happen as it was hunting slightly with auto focus. Fortunately I rarely have this kind of static shot, so I'm willing to live with it, but I can see how it could be a problem for others.

Ben_B
06-19-2010, 12:27 AM
I too discovered this after reading the thread I'd thought I give it a try.

I put my gh on a tripod and shot the backgarden static ...it ran for about 30 seconds...write error...second time...36 seconds...write error.
I use generic "c" settings on ptool.
If I move the camera around I never get a write error and would continue to record.

I installed new firmware without 24/25p native ticked...camera same position...and it recorded continuous with no issues.

I beleive there is a problem with 24/25p patch rather than just blaming card speed issues (im using a extreme III class 10 that handles 80mbs mjpeg with no problem).

Were all been testing and giving reports so this odd little issue should be reported to vitaliy

Did you mean that you turned off native 24p and you got it to record continuously? Because it sounds like you said the opposite but then said you think there is a problem with the 24p patch. Please clarify.

Lpowell
06-19-2010, 12:41 AM
Just set up your camera in front of you monitor so that the chart fills the whole field, focus well and record with Native 24p enabled and you should see the error.
I tried to reproduce this type of failure in a 1080p video with the following settings:

Video bitrate Simplified 50000000
Overall bitrate adjustment 52000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment 6000000
Native 24p
1080p GOP length 12

I saw no failures using either a Class 6 Transend 16GB SD card or a Class 10 Sandisk 16GB.

However, I did see a potential problem when I examined one of the videos in StreamEye. While the average bitrate was only 28Mbps, the maximum P-frame was over 10 times the size of the average P-frame, and 6 times the size of an average I-frame. It wasn't hard to spot these massive P-frames in the stream - they occurred sporatically, but were always the last P-frame in a GOP.

What is apparently happening is that a stationary video requires so little bandwidth for most P-frames that excess bandwidth builds up in the encoder and eventually forces it to discharge a huge amount of useless bits in a single P-frame at the end of a GOP. This causes a brief, but radical boost in bitrate which triggers a write speed error on many SD cards.

Perhaps the reason the failure doesn't occur in 60i mode is that the extraneous interlaced frames bleed off enough bits to keep the maximum bitrate below the maximum speed of the SD card. What would genuinely fix this problem is a patch that enables the camera to record at as low a bitrate as a video actually needs.

butler360
06-19-2010, 12:51 AM
Svart, are you saying you get this error without applying any bitrate settings? Just the native 24p only? As I have at least a dozen of files on a tripod with the 24p patch and never had this problem. I can even post the .mts files.

If I'm understanding correctly, you probably haven't seen an error because you have a good enough card to handle the spikes.

I think to sum up Svart's point here (and correct me if I'm wrong)...

X settings at 24P = FAIL!
X settings at 60i = PASS!
Where x = same settings in both instances...
WHY?!??

Right? Meaning, if it were the fault of the card... why would the same settings fail depending on 24P or 60i? Shouldn't it be the same bitrate, so it should either pass on both or fail on both?

And I did ask Vitaliy which would be better to shoot at for bitrate (since CS5 handles 24P and 60i equally well) and he answered 60i, although the answer was a bit vague. He did seem to indicate that there's a difference, though. I think those parts have since been deleted from the main hack project thread.

PappasArts
06-19-2010, 01:36 AM
60-62-70 failed star chart test.
GOP 15
60i / 24wrapper - non24pn
class 10 extreme

2nd test
Filmed in normal light within room- Camera recorded with out issue. Recording appears to be cleaner than c settings....

Star chart is extreme circumstances- My other settings I filmed over an hour of material in two days no issues in 24PN- however when I filmed
the chart- Card write error.


3rd test adjusted settings to 58-60-68

Filmed Star Chart in 24PN- FAILED
Filmed Star Chart in 60i wrapper - RECORDED OVER 1 MIN, THEN I STOPPED CAMERA- GOOD IMAGE QUALITY.

Going to re-test the 60-62-70 / 60i/24 wrapper again- Since the quality looked good, and the world isn't a star chart... :-)



Pappas

mimirsan
06-19-2010, 03:41 AM
Did you mean that you turned off native 24p and you got it to record continuously? Because it sounds like you said the opposite but then said you think there is a problem with the 24p patch. Please clarify.

When 24p is on...write error on staitc shot
when 24p is off...no write error....recorded continuously.

and to add again I have 2 sdhc cards that can handle bitrate up to 70+mbs so really 44mb avchd with occasional spikes should not cause a problem should it not?

Indeed the problem isnt a major one with static shots...but one that could be fixed with some kind of patch methinks.

MR Fanny
06-19-2010, 07:33 AM
Just in the process of collecting my benchmark tests results using original firmware to be able to compare with modified firmware and guess what when static using the chart bitrates are considerably higher. I couldn't believe it. I made an animation that I could play to hunt down mud in detailed colours which works pretty well but this chart is just a killer for testing bitrate, and so simple too.

Streameye shows when static I frames peak at 353k and average out at 266k never dropping but when doing the swirl of death I frames float around 77k mark. P frames are the opposite with static lower at around 54k and moving 69k. I can't process MJPEG on Streameye but using Splash Lite i get bitrates of 30Mbps fluctuating on moving and 32Mpbs fairly constant on static with the chart.

So going by what I have seen static detailed shots are actually more taxing on card write speed than moving detailed shots. Explains why people are getting write error on static shots? Would this mean that shooting at "C" setting with 24/25fps patch results in a higher bitrate, possibly similar to that of shooting with the higher 60-62-70 without 24/25 fps patch but with less buffer?

I will do shots with moderately upped bitrates and 24/25patch on/off and see what I get then but I wouldn't be surprised if its the same.

Svart
06-19-2010, 07:37 AM
Just in the process of collecting my benchmark tests results using original firmware to be able to compare with modified firmware and guess what when static using the chart bitrates they are considerably higher. I couldn't believe it.

Streameye shows when static I frames peak at 353k and average out at 266k never dropping but when doing the swirl of death I frames float around 77k mark. P frames are the opposite with static lower at around 54k and moving 69k.

So going by what I have seen static detailed shots are actually more on card write speed than moving detailed shots. Explains why people are getting write error on static shots?


This is EXACTLY the test I was looking to do!

THANK YOU!

This proves what I am seeing and what I suspected without a doubt.

I'm not sure what is next. The huge I frames seem to be a known issue however I'm not sure Vitaliy can do anything about it yet without the original firmware software.

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 08:28 AM
Actually it really does make sense. If the shot is static there is going to be more detail because there is no motion blur. At a shutter speed of 1/50 there is going to be quite a lot of detail blur even in scenes that don't move much.

I wonder how things behave when a fast shutter speed is used. Does the bit-rate go up? I'm going to try this out.

Chris

Adventsam
06-19-2010, 08:29 AM
Just in the process of collecting my benchmark tests results using original firmware to be able to compare with modified firmware and guess what when static using the chart bitrates are considerably higher. I couldn't believe it. I made an animation that I could play to hunt down mud in detailed colours which works pretty well but this chart is just a killer for testing bitrate, and so simple too.

Streameye shows when static I frames peak at 353k and average out at 266k never dropping but when doing the swirl of death I frames float around 77k mark. P frames are the opposite with static lower at around 54k and moving 69k. I can't process MJPEG on Streameye but using Splash Lite i get bitrates of 30Mbps fluctuating on moving and 32Mpbs fairly constant on static with the chart.

So going by what I have seen static detailed shots are actually more taxing on card write speed than moving detailed shots. Explains why people are getting write error on static shots? Would this mean that shooting at "C" setting with 24/25fps patch results in a higher bitrate, possibly similar to that of shooting with the higher 60-62-70 without 24/25 fps patch but with less buffer?

I will do shots with moderately upped bitrates and 24/25patch on/off and see what I get then but I wouldn't be surprised if its the same.

Honestly, I am so happy with the 60,62,70 and 25p in the 50i wrapper that am not sure I am bothered about getting it better, especially as with the 14-140 zoom RS seems a none issue too. For 24p guys I see it slightly different though for sure, so am very interested in your progress, as a 24p option with max bitrate is still something high(incl me for some projects)on everybodys wish list, together with the live out and sound monitor.:2vrolijk_08:

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 08:43 AM
Another thing that occured to me is that Noise Reduction and Sharpening settings may play a big role here. Normally I set these both to -2 and do it all in post - which I think is pretty typical. However, if you look at it logically it may not be the best way to go. Sharpening adds detail so it should probably be left at -2. Noise reduction removes detail (ideally mostly meaningless detail), so it may make sense to set it higher. In other words, it may ultimately be better to do the noise reduction in camera.

Even if you were to lock the camera down on an optical bench, there would still be a several pixels of jitter from frame to frame because of micro-movement of the physical parts on the camera. Even if you could eliminate all that there would still be 1 pixel of jitter just because of the sensor.

Chris

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 08:50 AM
I tried 24p native with no other settings changed except GOP, which I set to 12. This should be the exact equivalent to the wrapped factory default setting except that it is native 24p (the GOP correlates to 1/2 sec in both cases). I got the pulse.

Now I'm going to try the same setup with the GOP at 15. It's sure beginning to look like pulsing is caused by the native 24p setting and nothing else, though.

Chris

Svart
06-19-2010, 08:51 AM
Another note, Vitaliy suggested changing GOP. I personally could not find a GOP setting that worked for me. I suggest those who have been able to reproduce this problem try alternate GOP settings and see if you can get it to work.

I have a feeling that this issue isn't that simple though.

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 08:55 AM
Come to think of it, with a low noise reduction setting every pixel in every frame will change slightly frame to frame.

chris

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 09:50 AM
Yup, pulsing still occurs even if the only patch applied to the firmware is Native 24p/25p.

Chris

Svart
06-19-2010, 11:09 AM
thanks for testing and putting it in the official hack sub-forum. At least we know what it is finally and how to test for it now.

Lpowell
06-19-2010, 11:18 AM
Thanks for posting that screen capture, cbrandin. It shows exactly the problem I described in my earlier post:
http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2024242&postcount=120

What is apparently happening is that when the bitrate drops too low, (e.g. when filming a static, unchanging scene) there's a build up of excess bits that the codec sporatically discharges in a single huge P-frame at the end of a GOP. This produces a brief, but radical boost in the bitrate that is higher than many SD cards can handle, resulting in a write speed error.

What is needed is a patch that will enable the codec to run at as low a bitrate as needed, without generating bloated P-frames from time to time.

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 11:21 AM
Acually, I suspect that it is just a flat out bug in the CODEC and is not related to any kind of data build-up. It's probably something like a subroutine being called at the wrong time producing a spike of junk data.

Chris

Svart
06-19-2010, 11:24 AM
Or a bug that fills empty frames with junk. Heck, it could be a million things at this point.

The problem is that this AVC lite is not really conforming to AVC specs and it seems to be a hack job full of hard coding and lack of error handling.

Lpowell
06-19-2010, 11:39 AM
Acually, I suspect that it is just a flat out bug in the CODEC and is not related to any kind of data build-up.
Perhaps it is a bug, but I've only seen these spiked P-frames in otherwise low bitrate streams. They only seem to appear when the codec has a lot more bitrate than it needs to use to encode the stream.

cbrandin
06-19-2010, 11:51 AM
Hmmm... that's interesting. I'm going to have a close look at all my test files to see if any other patterns emerge.

Chris

MR Fanny
06-20-2010, 04:58 AM
Just did the 24/25 Patch vs no patch using conservative "B" 32Mbit settings. v1.33 has no patch and v1.34 has patch. Mud was reduced but still there in my mud testing clip, will do test "C"settings to see if it reduces even more which i'm hoping it will.

No patch shows stable quite consistent I frames throughout floating around the 550k mark max bitrate 30Mbit.

Native Patch shows higher I frames at 740k then drops half way through with a max bitrate of 43Mbit. It also drops a big fat P frame turd nearing the end ..ha Stunk the whole room up.

So can we mark this down as another example of the native 24/25p patch bumping up bitrate over non patched and potentially freezing shots? Shooting native isn't high on my priorities, stability is so I am quite content shooting without patch =)

By the way do you guys notice your batteries not lasting as long as they used to with upped bitrates? I had a fairly fresh battery that I used for 2 maybe 3 patches still indicating full after the most recent patch, did some short clip tests that lasted maybe 5mins, dumped files to comp via card reader, then back to do the Native patch and it was down to one bar already and died shortly after. Really surprised me.

3Tigers
06-20-2010, 05:47 AM
Just to add: my Transcend 6 16GB card would crap out with the "B" 32Mbit settings when I film my daffodil of death test with Native 24/25p ON; however, the same tests appear to work perfectly fine when I turn 24/25p OFF. (note: I am only performing stability testing at this time).

MR Fanny
06-20-2010, 06:04 AM
Just to add: my Transcend 6 16GB card would crap out with the "B" 32Mbit settings when I film my daffodil of death test with Native 24/25p ON; however, the same tests appear to work perfectly fine when I turn 24/25p OFF. (note: I am only performing stability testing at this time).

what bitrates are you hitting with your deadly daffodils? static shots or moving? you should really try the star chart test, it really pushes the camera that thing.

All my tests shows that motion with high details hit lower bitrates than static high detailed shots.

I am using a Panasonic 16gig class 6 by the way.

3Tigers
06-20-2010, 06:50 AM
With "B" 32Mbit settings w/ Native 24/25p OFF, Windows tells me it is 29.7mbps. With "B" 32Mbit settings w/Native 24/25p ON, the camera locks up and I have to perform a battery pull; when I check the file, it is corrupted so I have no info.

My testing parameters are simple: focal range at 20mm, point at the flowers (I just check and it's not daffodils), OIS ON, auto-focus on, static shots, panning shots, then test the entire focal range. Perform the same test with 720p.

Lastly, my Transcend 6 16GB fails with "C" settings w/ Native 24/25p OFF.

GrgurMG
06-20-2010, 08:19 AM
Very interesting thread.

First off, Svart, I'd like to thank you for bringing this up to our attention and furthermore not relenting in your pursuit of vindication. The way certain people (one in particular) were missing or avoiding your point and details, I was seriously concidering the possibility they were trolling you ;)

I will in fact be shooting something on a tripod, in 24p native in a week or so and althogh it's unlikely there will be enough stillness to trigger this effect, I feel it's important that I'm aware of it.

So I decided to pit my GH1 up against Pappas' chart. I very much expected it to crap out right away, but in fact no matter what I initially did I could not get the effect to trigger. Faster shutter.. noise reduction down.. refocusing.. etc. etc. THEN however, I decided to turn my ISO down to 100 (from 800 I think) and -boom- I got the error and my GH1 froze up. It's definately a issue sparked from extremely low changes in consecutive video frames.. fine enough a difference that simply raising the ISO to add noise can (at times) be enough to counteract it.

To sum up the situation.. I would not disagree with Svart that this could be concidered a flaw in the 24p patch... although perhaps a safer from being flamed word would be "drawback". It's certainly not an intended biproduct of the 24p patch. Just because some people can bypass a problem, doesn't mean it's right to treat the problem as though it doesn't exist. It's kind of like someone with a driveway telling someone without one they can't complain about there other neighbor's 5 cars taking up all the parking on the block because they shouldn't bought a house with a driveway...or some analogy like that.

Anyhow.. as for my SD card.. I have a 16GB PNY Optima - Class 4. I'm pretty suprised at it's performanced being a class 4 I picked up at Staples. I was going to shell out more to order a Class 6 or 10 online.. but I needed something fast so I picked up the PNY (best brand/price combo I found at the store).

According to my speed test program my card gets 19.7MB/s read and 11.5MB/s write.. at least with my current card reader. It seems to be holding up to those results while recording as well. The program I'm using is designed to judge speed capabilities for video on a hard drive... so I trust it's reasonably reporting results for what my card can do consistently.

Here's a question... I'm not sure what was involved in the fix.. but has anyone tried the earlier version of the 24p patch? The one that didn't play back natively?

svecher
06-20-2010, 09:47 AM
To sum up the situation.. I would not disagree with Svart that this could be concidered a flaw in the 24p patch... although perhaps a safer from being flamed word would be "drawback". It's certainly not an intended biproduct of the 24p patch. Just because some people can bypass a problem, doesn't mean it's right to treat the problem as though it doesn't exist.
Well the biggest problem is the fact that when using native 24p/25p the GH1 freezes. When pushing the limits of ones card by applying the three AVCHD bitrate patches the worst case scenario is you get the "card speed error", but at least you retain what you've shot up to that point. With native patch the camera freezes and and your shoot is gone. This makes the native patch a much more experimental feature in my mind. With fast card and certain types of scenes there seems to be a certain level of stability.

I think that lpowell is onto something with his analysis of the rogue P frames. Somehow, these are only seen when applying the native patch. With 60i wrapper I have yet to see a rogue P frame in all of the test shots I did.

Speaking of the 60i wrapper footage. I did a bunch of star chart tripod tests with 60,62,70 settings. Looking at resultant files at low level (see attachment) I can see that recording always terminates at the end of P-frame sequence, before the next I frame. Since in 60i mode, the I/P size allocation looks normal for static footage (larger I frame, smaller P frames), it seems that some kind of buffer limit is reached.

Too see if enlarging the GOP sequence could possibly allow the buffer not to be filled with large I frames so quickly, I upped the GOP to 30, but still got the "Card Speed" warning, followed by "Error Writing to Card" message. The files were not written to the card. By picking a more modest 20 setting, I was able to record I few more seconds (than with stock GOP 15) and didn't get "Error Writing to Card" message, so could analyze the files (see 2nd attachment). Interestingly, I/P frame size allocation changed quite dramatically, with more than half the P frames larger than I frame and appearance of some dwarf P frames.

Park Edwards
06-20-2010, 10:09 AM
Very interesting thread.

First off, Svart, I'd like to thank you for bringing this up to our attention and furthermore not relenting in your pursuit of vindication. The way certain people (one in particular) were missing or avoiding your point and details, I was seriously concidering the possibility they were trolling you ;)

I will in fact be shooting something on a tripod, in 24p native in a week or so and althogh it's unlikely there will be enough stillness to trigger this effect, I feel it's important that I'm aware of it.

So I decided to pit my GH1 up against Pappas' chart. I very much expected it to crap out right away, but in fact no matter what I initially did I could not get the effect to trigger. Faster shutter.. noise reduction down.. refocusing.. etc. etc. THEN however, I decided to turn my ISO down to 100 (from 800 I think) and -boom- I got the error and my GH1 froze up. It's definately a issue sparked from extremely low changes in consecutive video frames.. fine enough a difference that simply raising the ISO to add noise can (at times) be enough to counteract it.

To sum up the situation.. I would not disagree with Svart that this could be concidered a flaw in the 24p patch... although perhaps a safer from being flamed word would be "drawback". It's certainly not an intended biproduct of the 24p patch. Just because some people can bypass a problem, doesn't mean it's right to treat the problem as though it doesn't exist. It's kind of like someone with a driveway telling someone without one they can't complain about there other neighbor's 5 cars taking up all the parking on the block because they shouldn't bought a house with a driveway...or some analogy like that.

Anyhow.. as for my SD card.. I have a 16GB PNY Optima - Class 4. I'm pretty suprised at it's performanced being a class 4 I picked up at Staples. I was going to shell out more to order a Class 6 or 10 online.. but I needed something fast so I picked up the PNY (best brand/price combo I found at the store).

According to my speed test program my card gets 19.7MB/s read and 11.5MB/s write.. at least with my current card reader. It seems to be holding up to those results while recording as well. The program I'm using is designed to judge speed capabilities for video on a hard drive... so I trust it's reasonably reporting results for what my card can do consistently.

Here's a question... I'm not sure what was involved in the fix.. but has anyone tried the earlier version of the 24p patch? The one that didn't play back natively?

i tried pointing out several times, though i like how you just called me a troll, had the original 24p patch and never experienced a problem. however that patch showed the clips playing back at 47 instead of 29.971. and i still can't create the same problem others are encountering.

and i wonder if it's possible that tester13 change the patch back to where you couldn't view files in camera and if it'll work better for some.

Mike@AF
06-20-2010, 11:04 AM
I have noticed the batteries drain quicker since the hack. I imagine the camera is working harder at these higher bitrates and thus uses more power.

Lpowell
06-20-2010, 11:59 AM
I've run Native 24p tests with PTool C settings on GOP lengths from 8 to 30, and none of them cured the occasional huge P-frame bug. On both Class 6 Transend 16GB and Class 10 Sandisk 16GB cards I only got write speed errors on about 10% of the videos. However, just as 3Tigers reported, I got numerous write speed errors when I tried the C settings with Native 24p off. In my case, it seems more reliable with Native 24p on...

GrgurMG
06-20-2010, 12:15 PM
i tried pointing out several times, though i like how you just called me a troll, had the original 24p patch and never experienced a problem. however that patch showed the clips playing back at 47 instead of 29.971. and i still can't create the same problem others are encountering.

and i wonder if it's possible that tester13 change the patch back to where you couldn't view files in camera and if it'll work better for some.

Heh, I said "was concidering the possibility" not that said person "was" ;)

Quite frankly I'm sure the issue exists on all GH1s running the native 24p patch with the vast majority of SDHC cards out there... it's just a matter of matching the scenario. As I mentioned, it was simply a matter of lower ISO with me. Now I'm actually curious how easy (or not) it is to trip at ISO 100. My card's a pretty fast Class 4, but it doesn't have the "extreme" burst speeds to give the proper overhead to bypass the problem.

As for utilizing an older 24native patch... I think I'll test that out now.

Park Edwards
06-20-2010, 12:48 PM
i will recreate every scenario possible to see if i can trip my card up. i sat it on a tripod, recorded a white wall. sat it on a tripod and recorded high detail. never a hiccup. both were for 30second. the newest ptool, settings were.

SandDisk Ultra II
24p
VA 40
OB 46
LB 50

these are the settings i use, as i don't see it necessary to get any higher.

and during which, i accidentally left a 1gb SandDisk card i use to load the ptool and it recorded on that as well. No problems. I had iso 100 and shutter speeds in the 100's. Manual lens.

cavie2002
06-20-2010, 12:52 PM
I have noticed the batteries drain quicker since the hack. I imagine the camera is working harder at these higher bitrates and thus uses more power.
I noticed the same thing today.

GMC
06-20-2010, 01:08 PM
I noticed the same thing today.

I have also noticed that the battery drains much faster. By the way, I am using the 38/40/42 settings for AVCHD and the native 24p patch, and I also noticed in some high detailed static scenes occasional freezing. But most (static) scenes work (very detailed, in the woods). Hence for me, the risk is low (buffalo class 6 card), and I stay with 24pN for now.

GrgurMG
06-20-2010, 01:36 PM
As for utilizing an older 24native patch... I think I'll test that out now.

So, I'll admit.. this time around it was harder to trip the error. I don't know wht the variable was, but at the same settings.. at ISO 100.. it took a few attempts to get the error to drop. It seems it's not really happening right away, however within the course of a minute or so the error will go off on Pappas chart. I would also note.. my monitor is only 1280x1084.. so lack of chart detail may be a factor amongsts other things.

It took a bit more work.. but I then tried it with an old Native 24p patch (pre-in-camera patch) and I was indeed able to get it to trip. I'm thinking my setup and card are just at the borderline of this problem.. so it required some extra time before the error pop comes along.

I would have to say that most users probably don't have to worry about this... however it's important to keep in mind when doing tripod shots outdoors. If it's just some recreational shooting or nature stuff, if this trips super rarely, it's fine. However if you ever film outdoor weddings with the GH13 as your tripod cam, one error out of every 1,000 shoots is still too many, so you may want to either leave it at non-native or just kick it into 720p for those specific shots... as a precaution. Or I suppose you can shell out the extra money for a SanDisk extreme.

---- afterthought----

Though then again.. a wedding should have plenty enough motion to stop this from triggering I might think... but still... any event videography knows you need to shoot for 100% peace of mind.

JoeJITSU
06-20-2010, 01:39 PM
SO is there "reliable" settings yet that one can use? The last few posts is indicating that the 24pN patch is "acting up" on some. I also notice the Battery drain as well. Will someone experiment with the "third party " batteries ticked. This might do something..you never know.

GrgurMG
06-20-2010, 01:53 PM
SO is there "reliable" settings yet that one can use? The last few posts is indicating that the 24pN patch is "acting up" on some. I also notice the Battery drain as well. Will someone experiment with the "third party " batteries ticked. This might do something..you never know.

Well, acting up perhaps makes it sound too unstable. It's in very specific situations that it does this. If you shooting handheld, should mount, monopod, etc... anything but unmanned tripod... it should be fine. But if your leaving a tripod alone to point at a high detail scene... with low ISO set in particularly... you do run the risk of the error triggering.

Nothing as of yet seems to entirely stop this from happening except to avoid these situations. If your shooting tripod and are concerned, keep it non 24pN or just switch to 720 for that shot. If you absolutely need to shoot at these settings with a tripod.. and you just happen to be shooting a mountain of grass... put the ISO up a little and noise reduction down... sharpness down too. Even a manned tripod shouldn't be in too much danger of this, because just touching the tripod is likely giving it enough subtle motion to stop the error in most cases.

wturber
06-20-2010, 06:15 PM
I've run Native 24p tests with PTool C settings on GOP lengths from 8 to 30, and none of them cured the occasional huge P-frame bug. On both Class 6 Transend 16GB and Class 10 Sandisk 16GB cards I only got write speed errors on about 10% of the videos. However, just as 3Tigers reported, I got numerous write speed errors when I tried the C settings with Native 24p off. In my case, it seems more reliable with Native 24p on...

I've been able to duplicate the 24P crashes here, but it has taken quite some effort. I had to use the back of a dollar bill my sharpest lens (50mm f/2 ZD macro) ISO 200 (not enough light for ISO 100) and noise reduction to it highest setting to finally tease out the failure. But even then, it was not consistent.

I'm using the "c" Bitrate settings and have the GOP set to 12 for 1080p24. Overall, I find this to be a really nice setting. I get very little in the way of "pulsing" and the gradient banding is very minimal. Overall, this is quite good and stable with the exception of this high detail static scene issue. Interestingly, I don't get the extra large "spiked" frame if I record witht the lens cap on. I'm not sure what that does to the "dumping unused bytes" theory.

BTW, I was able to create a stream where the extra large frames were about 2.5MB in size. Also, I've seen streams where the extra large frame is an I frame. So far it is also marked as a "key" in those situations.

I shot off and on all day today at ISO 100 and never ran into the problem into the freezing problem a real world situation. However, I did have a stream with that had very large 2.3Mb final "P" frames.

And on a final note, I noticed that when I had the failures, the extra large frames were extra keyframe "I" frames and were not "P" frames. So I had back-to-back "I" frames.


The cards I use have write speeds of 10.5MBs and 12.8MBs. The 10.5MBs card is a Class 10 Adata. The 12.8MBs card is a Class 6 Patriot. Interesting how the Class 6 card is actually a faster card. We really should start a sticky thread with tests results for various cards. The Class designation seems useful only in guaranteeing a minimum performance level.

Svart
06-20-2010, 06:53 PM
The Class designation seems useful only in guaranteeing a minimum performance level.

That is exactly what the "class X" designation means. Some cards can do much more, but any that have "class X" written on them mean that they will meet that minimum data rate. They don't have to significantly go over that number. Some like the Sandisk line typically do while cheaper cards typically don't.

I'm sure Vitaliy will figure it out when/if he gets to it. Now that we are able to reproduce it at will we have a better chance of getting it fixed.

I'm not sure what the 24p hack actually *is*, but it's probably a jump over a sub routine that interlaces the data stream. Who knows what else that sub routine actually does and why these frames are so much bigger than they should be.

I'm wondering if the interlacing does some kind of truncating of large bit streams and that is why we still see slight mud and somewhat lower resolution when we run without the Native 24p even though we still have large bitrate settings..

PappasArts
06-20-2010, 07:03 PM
we still see slight mud and somewhat lower resolution when we run without the Native 24p even though we still have large bitrate settings..

Svart,

So you feel that 60i wrapper has more mud and less resolution than the 24PN? Did you test for that?

Pappas

Svart
06-20-2010, 07:20 PM
I didn't do any scientific testing. I just have a gut feeling that it does when looking at so many files from all of the testing I've done.

I think the 24p patch was a little bit sharper. Also I notice that there are still spots in my video where you have areas of low detail, mainly in the shadows. I don't see it as much with the Native 24p material. It could be a happy side effect of the larger I frames.

If we were to find a way to get the best of both worlds, that would be awesome.

I've been in the audio field long enough to experience the birth of digital recording and remember with non-fondness the rise of in-the-box track summing. What happens is when you do math on a bunch of numbers, the resulting number gets huge. Eventually when you have a word length that is going to be more than your processor can handle (16 bit, 32 bit, etc) the programs would just truncate that number and you would lose all that extra precision. Do that enough and your output bitstream would be very compromised compared to all of the input streams.

I say this because what if those huge I frames really are legit data and the 60i wrapper can't handle something that large? what do you do with the extra? Is this why I see more detail in the Native 24p than the 60i?

Who knows.

designbydave
06-20-2010, 07:50 PM
I can echo what others are saying here. 1080 24p native patch, no motion, shooting a detailed scene (brush covered mountain side) will cause the "write speed error" almost instantly. I've also had it happen when panning very slow over the same detailed scene. Fast motion and/or 720 60p mode seem to be unaffected.

Park Edwards
06-20-2010, 08:08 PM
what can i shoot indoors that's "high detail". i don't have a printer and i want to test what people have crashed on. i just shot a dollar bill with a 28, 50 and 85 and nothing. recorded for 30 seconds. i'm going to try a painting of a forest, see if that does anything.

Park Edwards
06-20-2010, 08:57 PM
or can someone post a screen grab of the high detail scene they'r crashing on so i can get an idea.

PappasArts
06-20-2010, 09:02 PM
or can someone post a screen grab of the high detail scene they'r crashing on so i can get an idea.

I'll upload the chart for you.

Shoot the( Star Chart ) full frame from a high res computer monitor. I have always done that to spike a bit rate or do a quick tests for one reason or another. It will usually get you there within 90+ percent of a high detail scene without having to go out and film one every time you need to run a test.

Tip- when focusing on the star chart get the lines to a crispy jaggie dance. Also move the camera too in separate tests- to simulate change of scene doing circular motions as well swaying it, this will get the VBR going. Also if you shoot at 1600 ISO that also with push the bit rate even more when filming the star chart off a screen, and this will allow you to stop down the lens so you get very sharp performance out of the lens so it's as crisp as its gonna get. Extreme yes, and it ain't pretty, but it works for hitting the codec ceiling for testing


Drop it in quicktime etc, and play full screen- Then run the tests..

I also uploaded a picture so you know what I'm talking about. Don't use this one, as it's just a sample-
download the file I uploaded as that is at a 2K frame.

Here is a link to a file
http://www.sendspace.com/file/scn6oz

I just did a test moments ago on my 60-62-70 60i 24 wrapper on Class 10 extreme and got the error.


Could someone please run these numbers 54- 58- 68 and let me know how they compare in I/P frame performance wise against "C" settings & 60 - 62 -72?


Pappas

Park Edwards
06-20-2010, 09:16 PM
alright..cool. i'll hook my netbook up to my tv. that's full 1080. Should work.

GrgurMG
06-20-2010, 10:28 PM
alright..cool. i'll hook my netbook up to my tv. that's full 1080. Should work.


Just keep the ISO low and make sure the shots absolutely static.. just fill the screen with detail. Admittedly it's taken as much as just under a minute for it to happen to me on that chart, but I reiterate that my screens also not very high res.

Lpowell
06-20-2010, 10:37 PM
Here is a link to a file
http://www.sendspace.com/file/scn6oz

Warning: link leads to spamware site

Martti Ekstrand
06-20-2010, 11:11 PM
No, it doesn't.

Phil Seastrand
06-20-2010, 11:17 PM
Make sure it's in manual focus as well -- I found that it would hunt enough to prevent it from freezing. Also, in my case, I shot the carpet. Plenty of detail, no motion at all.

zhaoyun
06-20-2010, 11:25 PM
My 2 cents

I am facing selection of switching from PAL to NTSC due to travelling trip, so I did some testing for both system under “D” setting (50,56,60).

The camera works stable at PAL system even using class 4 SDHC, with selected native 25P, it created max bitrate at 65 and avg 43 at 1080p25 when shooting high detail and tsunami pan. The same scene under 720p50 mode, we have max 47 and avg 43 footage.

Switched to NTSC at the same “D” setting and native 24P, I obtained card write error under high detail scene with tsunami pan, daily normal shoot with steady shoot as well. Tested in class 4 only. It happened at FHD, SD, and even at 44,56,60.

I quickly go through this thread, most mentioned errors are under 24P situation. May I know is it so important to shoot 24P, how about shoot at 25P.

MR Fanny
06-21-2010, 12:50 AM
I quickly go through this thread, most mentioned errors are under 24P situation. May I know is it so important to shoot 24P, how about shoot at 25P.

Interesting. Is everyone who is getting this error shooting in NTSC? Might be another piece of the puzzle.

mimirsan
06-21-2010, 12:55 AM
I shoot Pal. No error with 24/25p native off switch native on and write error on static shots

zhaoyun
06-21-2010, 01:32 AM
I shoot Pal. No error with 24/25p native off switch native on and write error on static shots


can you give me more details on setting, i want to duplicate any case possible to get a stable machine during my trip.

aczelkri
06-21-2010, 02:39 AM
Earlier I used "D" settings and Native 25p PAL. I often had card speed errors when zooming in and out (1080/25p and 720/50p). My camera also froze, after which I had to remove the battery and all the footage was lost (0 byte).

Now I have moved to "C" settings and 50i. I have received less speed errors (still get some if I start to zoom in-out like crazy) and even if I get one it does not freeze the camera, and the footage recorded up to that point is usable.

I am using an AData 16GB class6 card with write speed average 7-8MB/s. I studied the footage and found that indeed when I started zooming in-out and the camera stopped recording there were high spikes (350k I-frame) in the MTS file which the card sure couldn't handle. But even if the recording is stopped, for me it is a very important difference that the footage is not lost. I suspect (but cannot tell for sure) that the Native 25p messes up when there are speed errors while in 50i there is no such problem. I also haven't noticed any pulsing since I moved to "C" @ 50i.

So it seems that for these two reasons Native 25p is not the way to go at the moment.

svecher
06-21-2010, 06:13 AM
I shoot Pal. No error with 24/25p native off switch native on and write error on static shots
Well, write speed errors are better than "freezing" that happens under NTSC mode. Can someone with PAL camera upload an EyeStream analysis screen of such a file?

MR Fanny
06-21-2010, 07:06 AM
my shots are on a PAL gh1 if that helps? thought they have yet to stop writing so it might be useless for what you are looking for.

wturber
06-21-2010, 08:37 AM
I'll upload the chart for you.

Shoot the( Star Chart ) full frame from a high res computer monitor. I have always done that to spike a bit rate or do a quick tests for one reason or another. It will usually get you there within 90+ percent of a high detail scene without having to go out and film one every time you need to run a test.

Tip- when focusing on the star chart get the lines to a crispy jaggie dance. Also move the camera too in separate tests- to simulate change of scene doing circular motions as well swaying it, this will get the VBR going. Also if you shoot at 1600 ISO that also with push the bit rate even more when filming the star chart off a screen, and this will allow you to stop down the lens so you get very sharp performance out of the lens so it's as crisp as its gonna get. Extreme yes, and it ain't pretty, but it works for hitting the codec ceiling for testing


Drop it in quicktime etc, and play full screen- Then run the tests..

I also uploaded a picture so you know what I'm talking about. Don't use this one, as it's just a sample-
download the file I uploaded as that is at a 2K frame.

Pappas

I guess my laptop does not qualify as a high res monitor. I got lower bit rates using it and the "star chart" than for the back of the dollar bill. When using the dollar bill, make sure you are full frame on the detailed areas with no blank area in frame. This may not be possible with non-macro lenses.

I disagree with a few of Pappasarts suggestions.

Don't use High ISO. The added noise is largely random and probably has the same effect on the CODEC as a bit of motion. Use a low ISO and possibly increase the noise reduction setting.

Don't shoot at f/16. 4/3s lenses are typically sharpest around f/5.6. Legacy manual lenses are typically sharpest at around f/8. At f/10, diffraction noticably softens images from the GH1 sensor due to its small pixel pitch. F/11 and f/16 are nice options if you want to try to reduce image aliasing when shooting video precisly because these small apertures blur the image a bit.

Do make sure your target is completely in focus across the entire frame. That means make sure it is very parallel to the camera's sensor.

Do use the sharpest lens you have at its sharpest aperture. As mentioned before, that's probably f/4 to f/5.6. This also gives you a little bit more DoF than shooting wide open.

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:24 AM
Raising the shutter speed to 1/500 or faster raises the amount of detail considerably - probably because it eliminates the effect of vibration, motion etc... It might easier for testing than trying to stabilize everything.

Chris

svecher
06-21-2010, 01:09 PM
Raising the shutter speed to 1/500 or faster raises the amount of detail considerably - probably because it eliminates the effect of vibration, motion etc... It might easier for testing than trying to stabilize everything.

Chris
The GOP is ~15 frames, which at 24 fps works out to >1/2 sec time span between I frame and the last P frame in GOP. At faster shutter speeds Each P frame captures more detail, however there is still "overall" motion. Stabilizing on tripod eliminates overall motion as well. AVCHD encoder seems to have a "funky" relationship between I/P frame sizes, especially as you start pushing bitrates up. Throwing a native patch on top of this seems to complicate the relationship further (rogue P frames).

mimirsan
06-21-2010, 01:18 PM
can you give me more details on setting, i want to duplicate any case possible to get a stable machine during my trip.

I use ptools recommended "c" settings. Very very stable for me using a sandisk class 10 and verbatim class 10. Without native 24/25p.

If I use same settings but with 24/25p ticked on I get write error on static shots. As mentioned before...seems to be a common problem with the 24/5p patch.

zhaoyun
06-21-2010, 01:44 PM
Earlier I used "D" settings and Native 25p PAL. I often had card speed errors when zooming in and out (1080/25p and 720/50p).

Now I have moved to "C" settings and 50i. I have received less speed errors (still get some if I start to zoom in-out like crazy)

high spikes (350k I-frame) in the MTS file which the card sure couldn't handle.




If I use same settings but with 24/25p ticked on I get write error on static shots. As mentioned before...seems to be a common problem with the 24/5p patch.



it's fine with my camera in highest details with 25p native, analysis from streameye listed pervious, what is the max and avg bitrates you guys obtained?

my setting are 50,56,60(D setting) what are yours?

R.brooks
06-21-2010, 02:28 PM
Hi all. i've been having the freeze problem for some time now, but 60i is not an option for me. i don't have adequate software for pulldown.
my question is: will repeated freezing "battery pull" have any negative effect on my camera? if there's no danger. i'll have to learn to live with it :)

jleo
06-21-2010, 02:50 PM
Instead of a battery pull, try just turning off the camera. It won't turn off instantly, it may take 5 or 10 seconds. If that doesn't work then battery pull may be the only option.

R.brooks
06-21-2010, 02:57 PM
hi leo. sometimes it works other times not. just wondering if it will damage over time...

MR Fanny
06-21-2010, 04:44 PM
I use ptools recommended "c" settings. Very very stable for me using a sandisk class 10 and verbatim class 10. Without native 24/25p.

If I use same settings but with 24/25p ticked on I get write error on static shots. As mentioned before...seems to be a common problem with the 24/5p patch.


Is yours NTSC or PAL? If anyone else is getting this error can you post up what region gh1 you have. Want to see if there is some correlation. cheers.

wturber
06-21-2010, 05:14 PM
<snip>Throwing a native patch on top of this seems to complicate the relationship further (rogue P frames).


... and at times rogue I frames.

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 08:47 PM
What do you mean by "rogue I frames"?

chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 10:01 PM
What do you mean by "rogue I frames"?

I've seen them too, in StreamEye bar charts. I first noticed them immediately after I set Sharpening +2 and Noise Reduction +2 in the Smooth Film Mode. My intent was to test whether this would have an effect on the huge end-of-GOP P-frames that we've seen when filming static scenes.

I did a test run of 25 ten-second movies (using PTool C settings and Native 24p) with the camera mounted on a tripod and focused on a gray sidewalk. While I saw no Write Speed Errors or huge P-frames, three of the videos had "rogue" I-frames - a singular large I-frame with zero P-frames following it. The result was pair of adjacent I-frames, the first about twice as large as a typical I-frame, and the second smaller than normal.

The rogue I-frames are similar to the huge P-frames and occur in nearly the same location in the stream of GOP's. But they're not as large as the huge P-frames and my Class 6 and Class 10 SD cards appear to tolerate them without generating Write Speed Errors (at least so far in the tests I've done).

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:03 PM
What? You got I frames without P frames? Can you post a screen capture from StreamEye?

Chris

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Or do you mean the following P frames were tiny? One would expect that in a totally static situation if the image wasn't changing.

Chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 10:13 PM
There were no P-frames at all following the rogue I-frame. That's why there is always a pair of adjacent I-frames whenever a rogue I-frame appears.

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:34 PM
Can you post a screenshot of this? I've never seen anything like this.

Chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 10:37 PM
StreamEye doesn't appear to have a bargraph save option. I'd upload the MTS file, but it's too big for Dropbox.

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:45 PM
You should be able to do a screen capture of the image on your monitor and save it as an image file and then post that. I would really like to see this because it runs contrary to everything I assumed about how the GH1 works and could be a very important piece of information. Do you need help with the screen capture procedure?

Chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 10:52 PM
Sorry, I don't have a screen capture app. I suppose I could take a photo, I do happen to have a camera here ;)

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:55 PM
Are you running on a PC or Mac? You don't need a screen capture app (although Gadwin PrintScreen if free and great on a PC). On a PC you can follow these instructions: http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/general/ht/winscreenshot.htm

Chris

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 10:57 PM
On a Mac you can follow these instructions: http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/screencapturemac/ht/macscreenshot.htm

Chris

zhaoyun
06-21-2010, 11:03 PM
i conduct two tests of GH13 under PAL system and native 25p, "D" setting as well.

with class 4 SDHC, the first test changed to high shutter speed at 1/1600 for high detail frame. wihout any card write error and had max 51 and avg 42 at 1080p25 from streameye. this max bitrate not my record (record max is 63) but under high detail scene, my GH13 is stable to handle this bitrate or even higher, so as you all.

the second test is static shoot test, placed it at hot environment (inside car under sun light) and shoot over 40 mins until i stopped. no error at all.

my little conclusion : "D" setting, PAL system, native 25p, class 4 or higher. GH13 working stable and error free.

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 11:04 PM
Ok, what pixel dimensions should it be scaled to fit in a forum message?

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 11:05 PM
doesn't really matter, as long as it's readable.

Chris

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 11:08 PM
By "D" settings do you mean 50,52,60?

Chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Here's a rogue I-frame that happens to be about three times the average size of a typical I-frame:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/justafluff/StreamEye/RogueIframe.jpg

zhaoyun
06-21-2010, 11:18 PM
"D" setting from Jobless at

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213082

is 50, 56, 60 which was commented by Vitaliy with "OK at low level". i think you should having a try if you using PAL.

all the information above obtained from the above thread first two pages.

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 11:22 PM
Thanks, that's a very interesting screen shot. I've posted it for Vitaliy on the tester forum.

Chris

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 11:29 PM
It looks like you set the GOP to 12 - is that correct?

Chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 11:40 PM
Yes, I explicitly set the GOP to 12. Note that the GOP's before and after the rogue I-frame have the correct 12 frames. That means the rogue I-frame isn't just a huge P-frame that was somehow replaced by an I-frame.

cbrandin
06-21-2010, 11:49 PM
Yes, I noticed that too. Thanks very much - this is very interesting!

Chris

Lpowell
06-21-2010, 11:57 PM
Now that I think about it, perhaps the "Write Speed Error" that occurs with huge P-frames is actually an internal P-frame buffer overflow error. If the camera has sized its P-frame buffer to handle normal-sized P-frames, then an unexpectedly huge P-frame at the end of a GOP could be overflowing the buffer. But with a rogue I-frame, the camera would detect its size at the start of the one-frame GOP and allocate a large enough buffer for it, which would explain why rogue I-frames don't provoke Write Speed Errrors.

cbrandin
06-22-2010, 12:07 AM
I'm not sure the pulses produce write errors. In fact, I've found that the write errors happen more often without the Native 24p checked. That would make sense because the wrapped mode has to send more data because the wrapped version sends 60 "interlaced" frames for every 24 non-interlaced frames. The extra 12 frames are redundant pullup (does that term exist?) frames.

Chris

cbrandin
06-22-2010, 11:16 AM
hey lpowell,

I got involved in another thread about "pulses" and ended up confusing everybody because I was talking about the pulses that appear in EyeStream and they were talking about another kind of pulsing. Maybe we should start using the term "Spiking" instead to avoid confusion.

Anyway, I noticed that you are using EyeStream 1.1 and I am using version 3.1. I wonder - do you suppose the different versions of EyeStream are interpreting the same anomaly in different ways?

You can download a demo version of EyeStream 3.1 that works for 30 days. It might be interesting to see if it interprets your clip differently.

Chris

cbrandin
06-22-2010, 02:36 PM
Nevermind, I figured out how to get rougue P and I frames. And you are correct - the rogue frames do seem to cause write failures.

Chris

surfer030303
06-24-2010, 02:42 PM
Then I counter, counter disagree! I'll go over this again, if I set Ptool to ONLY native 24p I cannot record with the STOCK settings(bitrate changes UNCHECKED IN PTOOL) on either a class 6 card or class 10 card, both of which have worked flawlessly for as long as I've had my camera. These are the stock settings and they will NOT run with the native 24p setting when capturing a static, high detail scene:

16,000,000
18,000,000
20,000,000

How can this be my cards? You are only looking at the high bitrate numbers I posted and have not read that I stated more than once that only enabling 24p(nothing else, no bitrate changes, nothing) causes card speed errors.

The fact is that the ability of the Sandisk cards to handle bitrate spikes is totally masking the fact that the native 24p setting causes extremely high bitrate spikes at any bitrate, including the stock bitrates.

At the high bitrates that I've tried, I've noticed that I can sustain 45mbit easily with my class 6 card and not get card speed errors. This means that there are NO bitrate spikes due to the fact that I never get an error even with sustained class 6 maximum bitrates into the card and can also shoot a static scene without issue. I can also increase the bitrates to the point where the class 6 card will fail due to card speed issues but the class 10 card will record fine. This also means that the bitrate written to the class 10 card is without bitrate spikes. It's all about overhead. We should NOT need to have significant overhead. This means that there is something wrong.

THE HIGH BITRATES WERE MEANT TO TEST THE CARDS TO THEIR MAXIMUM TRANSFER RATES to test their actual limits inside the camera, nothing more.

I'm not sure what else to say here. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself correctly?

Lets not get hung up on the high bitrate settings because those are a red herring to the root cause.

Those testing the Sandisk cards at very high bitrates are attempting to simulate running a slower card.


I got the same problem. Am using a PAL GH1 and Native 24/25p is not working whatever bitrate am using. It's a BUG for PAL's users and not a question of class 6 or 10 or whatever... Car3o listen to people pls... lol

svecher
06-24-2010, 02:47 PM
I got the same problem. Am using a PAL GH1 and Native 24/25p is not working whatever bitrate am using. It's a BUG for PAL's users and not a question of class 6 or 10 or whatever... Car3o listen to people pls... lol
Please be more specific about failure mode: stops recording with "card too slow" error, camera freezing, etc.?

surfer030303
06-24-2010, 03:23 PM
Please be more specific about failure mode: stops recording with "card too slow" error, camera freezing, etc.?

Just STOP recording and cam freeze. Have to pull out battery to shut down cam.

zhaoyun
06-25-2010, 01:28 AM
I got the same problem. Am using a PAL GH1 and Native 24/25p is not working whatever bitrate am using. It's a BUG for PAL's users and not a question of class 6 or 10 or whateverl


Hi surfer030303, maybe i missed, can you share what you setting in ptools. Is it a native PAL machine? i just what to figure the exact problem.

PS. i am a PAL user also and happy with ACVHD patch and error free with class 4 SDHC. go pervious page for my settings.

surfer030303
06-25-2010, 02:43 AM
Hi surfer030303, maybe i missed, can you share what you setting in ptools. Is it a native PAL machine? i just what to figure the exact problem.

PS. i am a PAL user also and happy with ACVHD patch and error free with class 4 SDHC. go pervious page for my settings.


Hi, my machine is a PAL GH1.

I am using these settings :

Version compare patch
3rd party battery
30mn limit removal
Video Bitrate Adjustment Simplified : 60
Overall Bitrate Adj : 62
Limiting Bitrate Adj : 70

All other boxes are not checked.
I am not fan of MJPEG because of the size and the 30 fps as I am in Europe with the PAL 25.


All working perfectly.
Excepted if I use the Native 24p/25p. If i use this camera is freezing or blocking after 1 or 2 sec.

Blackout
06-25-2010, 04:55 AM
May I ask the ages of the cameras for people where this is happening?

I installed the hack firmware on two GH1s, one that was purchased in the last six months, and one that was an original release model. I don't know if there are any differences in hardware or not but to my eye the newer one always looked better than my friends older one (wouldn't get the weird lines and streaks in higher isos and seemed to get less mud.)

Anyway, so far, fingers crossed, the patch with C settings and 24p native checked has worked
flawlessly in both static on a tripod scenes and hand held whip scenes on my newer camera, with both the lens stabilizer on and off with the kit lens. On a transcend 16 gig class 6 card.

With the very same card (exactly the same card not the same brand), put into the older GH1, the C settings worked handheld, but had the fail / freeze / had to pull battery reset on the older cam anytime shooting a static detailed scene on a tripod.

Strange.

Also, as others have reported, the resulting AVCHD file reports as 23.971 not 23.976 but I drop it into sony vegas as a 1920 1080 23.976 project & timeline and render out to any codec as 23.976 and all works well so far!

After reading this thread I was terrified that 24p would not work on a tripod but again it seems to be ok on my newer camera and not ok on my buddy's GH1 which he bought right when they first came out.

I have so far been overjoyed with this hack...I played some scenes out through a HD projector and almost pooped my pants. My 7D only friends are now jealous.

Blackout
06-25-2010, 05:43 AM
Thank you again Tester13 I will be making a donation.

zhaoyun
06-25-2010, 07:34 AM
Version compare patch
3rd party battery
30mn limit removal
Video Bitrate Adjustment Simplified : 60
Overall Bitrate Adj : 62
Limiting Bitrate Adj : 70


Excepted if I use the Native 24p/25p


i think your setting of bitrate is little bit higher than camera can handle. not exact wording, please refer to thread

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213082

"D" setting with [50,56,60]. it is already enough, just my opinion. and of course with these settings i have no error together with native 25p. Let's try.

zhaoyun
06-25-2010, 07:44 AM
I installed the hack firmware on two GH1s, one that was purchased in the last six months, and one that was an original release model. I don't know if there are any differences in hardware or not but to my eye the newer one always looked better than my friends older one (wouldn't get the weird lines and streaks in higher isos and seemed to get less mud.)

Anyway, so far, fingers crossed, the patch with C settings and 24p native checked has worked
flawlessly in both static on a tripod scenes and hand held whip scenes on my newer camera, with both the lens stabilizer on and off with the kit lens. On a transcend 16 gig class 6 card.

With the very same card (exactly the same card not the same brand), put into the older GH1, the C settings worked handheld, but had the fail / freeze / had to pull battery reset on the older cam anytime shooting a static detailed scene on a tripod.



hi Blackout, may i know two have same menu settings? will you try to reset to default and test them again?

anyway, do you mean that hardware from difference places affect their performance, where did you two camera make in?

my camera was made in China.

Maybe someone can report this to vitaliy that to take a look of the hardware from difference places to see wheather affect performance or not.

surfer030303
06-25-2010, 08:05 AM
i think your setting of bitrate is little bit higher than camera can handle. not exact wording, please refer to thread

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213082

"D" setting with [50,56,60]. it is already enough, just my opinion. and of course with these settings i have no error together with native 25p. Let's try.


He don't start same discussion as Car3o is doing with others... I've tryed lower bitrates first (a, b, and c) with Native24/25p and cam crashed or freeze... And you know what, I don't care about native cause the result is better with the wrapped 25/50i and especially when I am editing FHD (1980x1080) on EDIUS. However thanks.

Blackout
06-25-2010, 10:45 AM
My camera says is a ntsc version says made in japan I'll have to look at what his camera said, all other settings were exactly the same.

Blackout
06-25-2010, 10:47 AM
He don't start same discussion as Car3o is doing with others... I've tryed lower bitrates first (a, b, and c) with Native24/25p and cam crashed or freeze... And you know what, I don't care about native cause the result is better with the wrapped 25/50i and especially when I am editing FHD (1980x1080) on EDIUS. However thanks.

Did edius fix it's issues with properly editing 24p gh1 footage encased in 60i?
Last time I sued it it was confirmed it losses resolution and does not work correctly.

Never heard back from the engineers after that.

Blackout
06-25-2010, 10:48 AM
from what everyone 'pro' says you should go to cineform digital intermediate on pc or prors on mac if you are doing serious editing anyway but the 24p native is nice for certain projects you just want to edit natively quickly if your computer has the horsepower which mine does.

ATL Media Group
06-25-2010, 10:54 AM
He don't start same discussion as Car3o is doing with others... I've tryed lower bitrates first (a, b, and c) with Native24/25p and cam crashed or freeze... And you know what, I don't care about native cause the result is better with the wrapped 25/50i and especially when I am editing FHD (1980x1080) on EDIUS. However thanks.


Same here but I've switched over to CS5 which also does fine with pulldown. I use the B settings with native 24p unchecked and it works great.

I noticed that it only crashed with the kit lens on constant AF. With any prime I used it wouldn't crash. Probably due to shallow DOF.

Anyway.. my mud is gone, I can edit just fine in CS5 with no pulldown... All is groovy and stable for hours of constant shooting.

Blackout
06-25-2010, 11:05 AM
For those of you having crash issues, this is probably not it, but are you all sure you formatted your cards after the upgrade to the new hacked firmware? In my excitement when I first installed it, I did not, and I was getting either no change in bitrate or camera freezes, then formatted and all has been peachy non mud beautifulness since.

ATL Media Group
06-25-2010, 11:36 AM
For those of you having crash issues, this is probably not it, but are you all sure you formatted your cards after the upgrade to the new hacked firmware? In my excitement when I first installed it, I did not, and I was getting either no change in bitrate or camera freezes, then formatted and all has been peachy non mud beautifulness since.


It is it. I've done it several times... formatted in cam between patches. I can leave all setting stock and just change to 24pN and it'll crash. Reformat, change back to 24p over 60i and even up the bitrate and it won't crash all the way up to C settings.

Same exact settings.. 24pN = Crash... 24p /60i.. No crash.

This is with a Patriot LX 16gb class 10 card.

(testing card now)

Crystal Disk Mark reports:
15.31 MB/Sec read
14.29 MB/sec write

surfer030303
06-26-2010, 08:14 AM
Did edius fix it's issues with properly editing 24p gh1 footage encased in 60i?
Last time I sued it it was confirmed it losses resolution and does not work correctly.

Never heard back from the engineers after that.

It depends on which Edius you used. I am using the 5 with last upgrades. And my "pro" editing works perfect choosing 1980x1080 in 25p.

Blackout
06-26-2010, 11:16 AM
Ahhhh I am assuming you are pal then not NTSC so there is not the pulldown issue problem.

surfer030303
06-26-2010, 11:22 AM
Ahhhh I am assuming you are pal then not NTSC so there is not the pulldown issue problem.

Yes you are right am in PAL. But I am trying new features with lower bitrates (40,46,50) and 25p and I will give you results tomorrow.

surfer030303
06-27-2010, 01:39 AM
Here the results for :

40,46,50 with Native 24p/25p > FHP worked and SH worked
50,52,60 with Native 24p/25p > FHP worked and SH worked

I am going to increase bitrate to see. Resluts to come.

surfer030303
06-27-2010, 02:00 AM
So I tried :
60,66,70with Native 24p/25p > FHP cam freezed and SH worked.
Using a SANDISK Extreme III class 6 and 16 GB card for all above tests.

surfer030303
06-27-2010, 03:11 AM
Last test working :
50,56,60, Native 24p/25p > FHP worked and SH worked
Long shots about 5/6mn on tripod and handheld.
Filming static view and trees with wond in leaves. No mud.
Using a SANDISK Extreme III class 6, 16 GB card.
I think am going to stay on these settings so far.

Park Edwards
06-27-2010, 08:59 AM
the only time i had a fail was when i was using papas chart. no fail on anything else. Ultra II

zhaoyun
06-27-2010, 09:51 AM
Last test working :
50,56,60, Native 24p/25p > FHP worked and SH worked
.

The setting works well on PAL system definitely.

i took it again to two wedding parties past week for testing, 3 to 4 clips with max 5-6 mins had been taken. it didnt fail anyway.

Blackout
06-27-2010, 12:17 PM
All is good for me and I am a happy camera. I noted that the camera that it kept failing on said made in china on the bottom, mine says made in japan.

svecher
06-28-2010, 07:08 AM
Last test working :
50,56,60, Native 24p/25p > FHP worked and SH worked
Long shots about 5/6mn on tripod and handheld.
Filming static view and trees with wond in leaves. No mud.
Using a SANDISK Extreme III class 6, 16 GB card.
I think am going to stay on these settings so far.
Surfer, can you please download StreamEye Pro trial from http://www.elecard.com/download/ and post the screenshot here of stream analysis screen for static and panning shots?

Thanks.

surfer030303
06-28-2010, 07:44 AM
Surfer, can you please download StreamEye Pro trial from http://www.elecard.com/download/ and post the screenshot here of stream analysis screen for static and panning shots?

Thanks.


Yes Svecher I will.

surfer030303
06-28-2010, 10:16 AM
Surfer, can you please download StreamEye Pro trial from http://www.elecard.com/download/ and post the screenshot here of stream analysis screen for static and panning shots?

Thanks.


on tripod 18685

adys
06-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I am really starting to hate this camera and Panasonic all together...

I specially bought a new card, sundisk class 10 16 gig.

50,56,60, Native 24p/25p > FHP is not working ( freeze with card error "motion stopped due to card limitation bla bla)

also the same with B setting.

Nothing else fail, but if it fail from this chart, it can fail unexpectedly on important shooting...

I don't want to work with no native!
I hate the wrapper!


Surfer, have you tired to shoot the graph using a tripod with this settings?


Ok, now I tired with native only and not to patch nothing of the AVCHD patches, chart on tripod is working, no fail!

What is going on here???

svecher
06-28-2010, 03:52 PM
on tripod 18685
Looks good, surfer, no rogue I/P frames in sight. I'll try these settings myself tonight ...

PappasArts
06-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Last test working :
50,56,60, Native 24p/25p > FHP worked and SH worked
Long shots about 5/6mn on tripod and handheld.
Filming static view and trees with wond in leaves. No mud.
Using a SANDISK Extreme III class 6, 16 GB card.
I think am going to stay on these settings so far.

The 50-56-60 vs "C" settings of 50-52-60. What was the measurable difference
between the two- taking the middle number from 52 to 56 did what for the image quality etc?

Pappas

surfer030303
06-29-2010, 01:47 AM
Yes Svecher I will.


Svecher Here the graph of shot handeld.
18713

zhaoyun
06-29-2010, 02:26 AM
I specially bought a new card, sundisk class 10 16 gig.

50,56,60, Native 24p/25p > FHP is not working ( freeze with card error "motion stopped due to card limitation bla bla)

also the same with B setting.

Nothing else fail, but if it fail from this chart, it can fail unexpectedly on important shooting...

What is going on here???

Hi Adys, PAL or NTSC of your camera?

[50,56,60] seems work in PAL well. For NTSC, please try car3o setting...



Native 24p
Video bitrate adjustment - 40000000
Overall bitrate adjustment - 46000000
Limiting bitrate adjustment - 50000000

adys
06-29-2010, 03:23 AM
Hi Adys, PAL or NTSC of your camera?

[50,56,60] seems work in PAL well. For NTSC, please try car3o setting...

I am NTSC camera, with patch to PAL.

Just to be clear, its only failing with the chart on tripod, but I am worry that in will happen when I will photo something important...

I will try that tonight and update results.

Thanks!

Again, what to do with the L and H patches?

Video Bitrate Adjustment H
Video Bitrate Adjustment L

?

Leave them unchecked?

zhaoyun
06-29-2010, 03:43 AM
I am NTSC camera, with patch to PAL.

Just to be clear, its only failing with the chart on tripod, but I am worry that in will happen when I will photo something important...


i have no fail at all with this setting [50,56,60] even with class 4 and as i mentioned, i want to duplicate all case of failure to make sure this setting is stable enough.

i had tested many footages but no chart on tripod.

Can you give me detail of it for how long you get take? print out or shoot chart on monitor? how long you get fail etc. for me testing, thanks

zhaoyun
06-29-2010, 03:57 AM
Video Bitrate Adjustment H
Video Bitrate Adjustment L



H - 44
L - 32

for your reference, they are not affected each other, just quality you perfer.

adys
06-29-2010, 04:10 AM
i have no fail at all with this setting [50,56,60] even with class 4 and as i mentioned, i want to duplicate all case of failure to make sure this setting is stable enough.

i had tested many footages but no chart on tripod.

Can you give me detail of it for how long you get take? print out or shoot chart on monitor? how long you get fail etc. for me testing, thanks

Photo the chart from LCD screen , any ISO, 50 shutter or 60, 20 mm lens, tripod and manual focus.

In C setting, after 3 seconds there is freeze error "card limitation bla bla" ( I have the best card available in the market - SUNDISK CLASS 10 16 gig)

In B setting, after 10-15 seconds.

Didn't try in A, but with no AVCHD patch at all, and with native 24 patch, it does not happen at all.

I did photo things with a lot of detail and nothing happed, its only the graph that make it fail.

One more point, when you photo the graph, there is an illusion that the grid lines are elliptic.

As I know, the camera have some perspective correction build in on the fly, maybe its connected also to this and not only to the level of details...

DaLiV
06-29-2010, 04:46 AM
if you have SunDisk ... that seems not the best on market, only if SanDisk

in any case - measure real write performance of card ...

adys
06-29-2010, 04:50 AM
if you have SunDisk ... that seems not the best on market, only if SanDisk

in any case - measure real write performance of card ...

LOL

This is the card and its original.

http://www.sandisk.com/products/imaging/sandisk-extreme-sdhc-cards-

DaLiV
06-29-2010, 04:56 AM
what's your full checkboxes/parameters configuration ?
possible also you lifted audio ...
and also - nothing written ? may be small file exist ?

adys
06-29-2010, 05:07 AM
version change
version simple
30 limit removal
native
ntsc to pal

mpeg -> 24fps

All AVCHD fields are set to C ( also tested all for B)

no audio lifted ( I really don't understand why someone want to do so)

file in size zero