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Cieloent
06-13-2010, 03:09 PM
I currently own a Canon HDSLR and have no problems what so ever except file size and overheating.

With this New Firmware Hack does the Gh1 experience overheating issues or now file limits?

Also while I think the footage looks great technically I do not personally see that big of a difference. Other than MUD is there really a true difference now with the Hack? I worked with a GH1 before and thought it was an awesome camera I just bought a T2i though because it was less expensive.


Considering that I am in the market for a "B" cam and was thinking about buying another T2i or a GH1 since it seems like new life has been brought into this camera I am highly interested. So my real question is to users is this HACK really that good that anyone in the market for a DSLR should be looking into a GH1?

The only other thing I do not like though is the Gh1 crop ( x2) as I film more on the wide side ( 35mm or less ) so this could be a problem.


Thank You for any replies and apologies if this post was in the wrong location

Thank You

WesScog
06-13-2010, 03:18 PM
I ran around with my GH1 in and out of my hot car, here in the sub-tropics, with the updated firmware, and shot all day long without a cloud in the sky and temps above 90 all day long without a single problem.

All the files brought back, and none of them have any issues at all. No hiccups, no freezes, just native 24P footage, and less noise, blocking, and banding all around.

Looking at the files close up, and messing around with them in Magic Bullet looks, I can tell you that there is definitely much more to the adjustments than just default image quality. How much you can stretch and modify these images are amazing, and they look great, much better image that holds together so much better with none of the quirks or issues I was seeing before.

Barry_Green
06-13-2010, 10:15 PM
No problems with overheating or file sizes, as long as you're using the AVCHD mode. If you're using the MJPG mode, there is a limited file size (2GB, so about half the recording time on the Canons). But the MJPG mode can be used to get 4:2:2 color also, so it's got benefits to go with the limited recording length.

Major reasons to consider a GH1 over a Canon would be if you need autofocus during video recording, or the live viewfinder, or the live histogram, or the articulating LCD, or you want to get rid of the purple/green moire that the Canons exhibit, or if you want to shoot 4:2:2 intraframe instead of only 4:2:0 long-GoP, or if you want clean/sharp 720/60p. Major benefits of the Canon over the GH1 would be HD live video output over HDMI (although only SD when recording, at least it *can* output video, where the GH1 only outputs SD while paused, and nothing while recording). Canon sensor is slightly larger; as compared to the Canon, the GH1 is a 1.18 crop factor. And the t2i is cheaper than the GH1.

Plus if you plan on getting an AF100 someday, the GH1 would probably be the more appropriate "B" camera to an AF100, since they can share the same lenses.

Vitaliy Kiselev
06-13-2010, 10:25 PM
And the t2i is cheaper than the GH1.

Plus if you plan on getting an AF100 someday, the GH1 would probably be the more appropriate "B" camera to an AF100, since they can share the same lenses.

T2i body, is, in fact, more expensive.
All price difference appears from kit lens price.
Other part of equation is lenses prices.
As GH1 can mount Konica AR and Olympus OM old lenses.
Normally they go for fraction of Nikon or Pentax mount versions.

Brian@202020
06-13-2010, 10:30 PM
I purchased my GH1 for $640 new, body only. I haven't seen a T2i, body only, for that price.

Barry_Green
06-13-2010, 10:42 PM
Right, but officially, in the USA, through authorized sales channels, you can't buy it body-only, unless there's been a new development I'm not aware of?

I've long thought the GH1 was a screaming deal at body-only, but the buyer would have to import it because it's not available as such in the USA... for those for whom the body-only deal is actually available, yes that pushes the equation back the other way and makes the GH1 the even more-affordable option.

Park Edwards
06-14-2010, 12:41 AM
i don't want to sound like negative nancy, but is the gh1 firmware hack sub forum just going to turn into another version of the Gh1 threads?

Vitaliy Kiselev
06-14-2010, 12:55 AM
i don't want to sound like negative nancy, but is the gh1 firmware hack sub forum just going to turn into another version of the Gh1 threads?

We need something like this thread.
Otherwise we'll deal with constant new threads or flame in other threads.

Park Edwards
06-14-2010, 12:59 AM
We need something like this thread.
Otherwise we'll deal with constant new threads or flame in other threads.


alrighty. i can see that.

Martti Ekstrand
06-14-2010, 02:05 AM
Check out this one-to-one comparison of a hacked GH1 to 5DmkII. It re-enforces my long standing observation that it looks like the Canons doesn't render a true 1920x1080 'FullHD' video image from the sensor but rather a 960x540* image that's uprezzed in-camera and slightly blurred. The T2i/550D produces a even pixlier and softer looking image than 5DmkII. And despite all this softening Canons still manage to add false colour to the image (the green/purple crap) ...

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2015824&postcount=252


*That's not even SD PAL widescreen resolution (1024x576) btw.

Adventsam
06-14-2010, 03:31 AM
Can you expand on how you think Canon start/get to such a low res and up it to 1080p. Lots of people had their suspicions it was less than full HD but not this low actual res below, before the upscale.?

Vitaliy Kiselev
06-14-2010, 03:36 AM
Resolution can be very good, but they can have some smoothing filter to fight aliasing or stairstepping.

Adventsam
06-14-2010, 04:02 AM
They do a good job then with what they have, but its starting to look below par against the GH1?

Martti Ekstrand
06-14-2010, 05:53 AM
I don't claim to have any knowledge on how the video image is actually processed in the Canons (or any other HDSLR for that matter) but my near 30 years of experience in film and video editing has told me from the-get-go there's something not quite up to snuff with the resolution in the Canons. Just look at the details in the GH1 vs 5DmkII post I linked to. And when I did a job which mixed footage from my GH1 and a Canon 7D this winter I had to soften up the GH1 quite a bit in order not to make it's sharpness 'pop' when cross-cutting between the two cameras. I am however not allowed to post anything in public from that particular gig but a user here called robocut posted a side-by-side of GH1 and T2i/550D and I've done a quick rehash on the process here in Photoshop:

On left is the original GH1 image, in middle T2i/550D and on right GH1 processed to match; I downscaled the GH1 image to 50% with the NEAREST neighbour algorithm (the worst), then upscaled it again using bilinear scaling and then applied a 0.3 pixel Gaussian blur. Look at individual hairs against the dark background, the T2i/550D is pixly there and the general feel is rather softish. The body of hair in the T2i/550D image also shows green/purple contamination and worse, that contamination is shimmering in movement.

Here's the original post where I found the test image: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1935555&postcount=91

So now with tester13's eminent patch (I hope my workload will drop soon so I get some time to take it for some spins myself) that fixes the occasional encoding break-ups there's no doubt in my mind that GH1 produces a better image from also a technical point-of-view, in my eyes it already produced a more pleasing natural looking image all around.

Barry_Green
06-14-2010, 11:18 AM
It's long been known that none of the DSLRs produces an image that resolves anywhere near a true 1920x1080. They all produce an image that's somewhere around 720p worth of image detail, embedded in a 1080p signal, and liberally sprinkled with aliasing false detail all over.

The big difference between the GH1 and the 5D, now that the codec's been fixed, is going to come down to the FOV/DOF advantage of the Canon, vs. the chroma color contamination.

Oedipax
06-14-2010, 11:20 AM
I would say the Canons - at least the 5D - also have a significant advantage in low light as well. Maybe I can do some side by side shots later when it gets dark here.

Svart
06-14-2010, 11:44 AM
I would say the Canons - at least the 5D - also have a significant advantage in low light as well. Maybe I can do some side by side shots later when it gets dark here.

have you seen the 5d/GH1 shootout over at EOSHD? pretty convincing that they are very similar..

J Davis
06-14-2010, 12:07 PM
I think everyone must choose their words carefully.

Peace is more important than cameras.

jakobim
06-14-2010, 12:10 PM
I think everyone must choose their words carefully.

Peace is more important than cameras.

:Drogar-Mark-10(DBG) lol

Ian-T
06-14-2010, 12:12 PM
Throw some post sharpening on the Canon’s and they look the same as the GH-1 (with the exception of that weird smoothing effect you sometimes get). As nice as the Gh-1’s image is I’ve always noticed an in-camera sharpening on the GH-1 that makes the image look artificially over-sharpened. Where it really stuck out for me was the first series in the Zacuto shootout…the GH-1 was sharper than them all….including the film.

Kellar42
06-14-2010, 12:17 PM
Oh I think this is going pretty peacefully, isn't it?

I've been a GH1 shooter far more than a Canon shooter, and I'm really thrilled about the hack. I will agree that I'd trust a 7 or 5D in really dark situations over my GH1, though. It's fine to say I should never be shooting underexposed enough to cause FPN on the GH1, but the fact is, the sorts of documentary situations I often find myself in, it happens a lot.

On the other perceived advantage of the Canons...while it's hard to get as Wide on the GH1 (or just expensive), some of comparisons we've seen now of hacked GH1 vs 5D...it really seems like the GH1 wins handily for deep focus work. So, it might be easier to get a wide FOV on the Canons, but if it's going to be soft and full of moire, I guess it might be worth spending the money to get wide on the GH1, instead.

Oedipax
06-14-2010, 12:32 PM
have you seen the 5d/GH1 shootout over at EOSHD? pretty convincing that they are very similar..

Yeah, seen the shoot out but owning both cameras, I still notice the GH1 just feels nastier (that's a technical term, lol) in low light than the 5D. No side by side tests to back it up, mind, just my subjective experience using both cameras. But I'll try to do a test with the new firmware and see what's what. I think really it's the FPN that gets to me on the GH1. I prefer the noise of the 5D even at 12,800 to the GH1 at 1600 once that damned FPN shows up...

J Davis
06-14-2010, 12:38 PM
My GH1 arrived when they first released last year and I shot with it for just over 3 months. I loved this camera but sold it for a 7D because pulldown is not
cool when you give media to a client. If I did not own a vDSLR right now I would buy a japanese GH1 body on ebay and join in the fun with hacking it.
But I'm in the middle of production with aps-c sensors so I'm going to pass.

Generally speaking the camera market is in free fall and things are changing fast, sometimes from month to month.
Don't fall in love with your camera and start defending it because you invested in it.
Its a tool nothing more. ROI your equipment fast and flip the cams when you can.

Never forget that a year from now all these DSLR's will have depreciated equally.

To all the t2i and 7d shooters – there is nothing wrong with shooting canon just because the GH1 has more than caught up. Don't let anyone put you down saying the GH1 is better. They are just
tools and its what you do with it that counts.

To all the GH1 shooters - I applaud you all, for quite a while the GH1 has suffered shtick as being inferior and I have always been fast to point out that is has always been a fave of mine and an
elegant camera. With this hack you guys are in the spot light and deservedly so. Enjoy it.

Ian-T
06-14-2010, 01:08 PM
To all the t2i and 7d shooter[/I]s – there is nothing wrong with shooting canon just because the GH1 has more than caught up. Don't let anyone put you down saying the GH1 is better. They are just
tools and its what you do with it that counts.

To all the GH1 shooters - I applaud you all, for quite a while the GH1 has suffered shtick as being inferior and I have always been fast to point out that is has always been a fave of mine and an
elegant camera. With this hack you guys are in the spot light and deservedly so. Enjoy it.
++++ 1:thumbsup:

dmpsk8
06-14-2010, 01:19 PM
I have to admit, I'm enjoying my 7D overall (sold the GH1). This hack really has me pumped on the capabilities of the AF100 though.

Svart
06-14-2010, 01:28 PM
Yeah, seen the shoot out but owning both cameras, I still notice the GH1 just feels nastier (that's a technical term, lol) in low light than the 5D. No side by side tests to back it up, mind, just my subjective experience using both cameras. But I'll try to do a test with the new firmware and see what's what. I think really it's the FPN that gets to me on the GH1. I prefer the noise of the 5D even at 12,800 to the GH1 at 1600 once that damned FPN shows up...

That's cool. Let us see some vids or screens of your findings! More data never hurt anyone.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 02:50 PM
Throw some post sharpening on the Canon’s and they look the same as the GH-1 (with the exception of that weird smoothing effect you sometimes get). As nice as the Gh-1’s image is I’ve always noticed an in-camera sharpening on the GH-1 that makes the image look artificially over-sharpened. Where it really stuck out for me was the first series in the Zacuto shootout…the GH-1 was sharper than them all….including the film.Even 'cause sharpness or resolution is not everything. This compulsion over the boards is pure lack of knowledge about what makes a cinematic outcome. A 5D Mark II plus an Iscorama produces a better result than a GH1 with the same kind of glass. It speaks the results I've had.

And someone who has preferred the GH1 over the 5D Mark II for a certain purpose. And the 5D Mark II even over the RED ONE for another ones.

It doesn't matter the bitrate you have (even if revolutionary :-) when there are other variables on the way.

stip
06-14-2010, 03:11 PM
T2i clearly is the best choice if most of you're shots are as out of focus as mine :)

Barry_Green
06-14-2010, 03:12 PM
A 5D Mark II plus an Iscorama produces a better result than a GH1 with the same kind of glass. It speaks the results I've had.
Have you tried it with the GH13 firmware update? You might be surprised.

Cieloent
06-14-2010, 03:31 PM
Does anyone know then when we might be seeing some new DSLRs? I like the Gh1 and also like the t2i so there is no preference. The main problem with the Gh1 though is the crop factor and this is something I am always fighting with so that's the main reason I sold it.

Maybe I might just wait a while longer and see if a newer Canon or GH comes out. Or just keep shooting with my T2i and try to make some more money and buy a better camera when I can afford one.

Thank you for the help people

Oedipax
06-14-2010, 03:34 PM
Well, the rumor mill is never-ending. Buy the camera you need for the job now, and don't worry about future cameras until they've got a firm release date announced. Anything else is just asking for headaches and bad feelings (see: Scarlet).

Isaac_Brody
06-14-2010, 03:40 PM
Well, the rumor mill is never-ending. Buy the camera you need for the job now, and don't worry about future cameras until they've got a firm release date announced. Anything else is just asking for headaches and bad feelings (see: Scarlet).

+1

And as J Davis already pointed out:


Generally speaking the camera market is in free fall and things are changing fast, sometimes from month to month.
Don't fall in love with your camera and start defending it because you invested in it.
Its a tool nothing more. ROI your equipment fast and flip the cams when you can.
Buy based on need, invest in lenses and other accessories that don't go obsolete and treat the camera body as something you'll upgrade each year. If you don't need a camera then wait a couple months to see what else comes out.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 04:17 PM
Have you tried it with the GH13 firmware update? You might be surprised.Not yet. For some current reason, the 5D Mark II is my pocket camera ;-) But sure I will when I'll be back home :-) Nonetheless, I could bet the Iscorama asks the Canon smoothness better. Strange thing is the aliasing's fake detail seems to offer an interesting combination to the deal. As we know, the secret is in a cooking of factors. Sugar is always better for dessert and salt as aperitif. What we put in front of the camera can change everything. Glass is 50% of the batch.

Stephen Mick
06-14-2010, 04:18 PM
Not yet. For some current reason, the 5D Mark II is my pocket camera ;-)

Those must be some pretty big pockets! :evil:

Kholi
06-14-2010, 04:23 PM
Not yet. For some current reason, the 5D Mark II is my pocket camera ;-) But sure I will when I'll be back home :-) Nonetheless, I could bet the Iscorama asks the Canon smoothness better. Strange thing is the aliasing's fake details seems to offer an interesting combination to the deal. As we know, the secret is in a cooking of factors. Sugar is always better for dessert and salt as aperitif. What we put in front of the camera can change everything. Glass is 50% of the bargain.

ANd, in saying this, that means a PL mount GH-1 (far far cheaper than an MKii with PL mount and much more flexible, since just about any PL glass including 16mm will cover the GH-1 sensor) has the potential to rip grass.

Although for the hobbyist or new shooter, maybe a PL mount and renting lenses isn't an option to get the best quality. Neither is picking up an Iscorama and only being limited to a 50mm (Maybe 28mm equivalent) focal length.

What I mean to say that since the GH1 became the GH13--still in progress, since there's now 4:2:2 JPEG mode and we can probably expect 24p and a lot of other improvements soon--and most people haven't really shot anything serious, this comparison thread and most of the second-hand comments are pretty moot.

Right now, there shouldn't be any which one threads until the GH13's had time to play in more hands.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 04:27 PM
Maybe I might just wait a while longer and see if a newer Canon or GH comes out. Why? Today, the GH1 with the hack is a must-have.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 04:31 PM
ANd, in saying this, that means a PL mount GH-1 (far far cheaper than an MKii with PL mount and much more flexible, since just about any PL glass including 16mm will cover the GH-1 sensor) has the potential to rip grass.
Right Kholi. I was referring the Iscorama glass, though. It offers a unique feel.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 04:35 PM
Although for the hobbyist or new shooter, maybe a PL mount and renting lenses isn't an option to get the best quality. Neither is picking up an Iscorama and only being limited to a 50mm (Maybe 28mm equivalent) focal length.
You're not referring 'that' limitation but only on the wide end as widest focal length, right? ;-)

Timmyjoe
06-14-2010, 05:06 PM
. . . invest in lenses and other accessories that don't go obsolete and treat the camera body as something you'll upgrade each year. . .

This was one of the selling points for the GH1 when I was looking a couple of months ago (before I realized there would be this wonderful firmware patch).

With a FFD of only 20mm, I can get adapters for the GH1 to use the large assortment of glass I have accumulated over the last thirty some years. Everything from Canon FD to Nikon F to Cine Lenses to Leica to Hasselblad. You can adapt them all to the GH1. Add to that the Live View optical viewfinder (with diopter adjustment) and the focus assist, and now all the manual focus lenses, even the wide angle ones, are a dream to work with.

With the Canon, you are somewhat limited to very high quality (but also expensive) Canon EF lenses or the few Zeiss offerings, unless you are willing to pay thousands of dollars to have the front of the camera torn off and replaced with a PL mount, which then limits you to PL mount lenses.

I find the GH1 much more versatile when it comes to high quality glass.

Best,
-Tim

Timmyjoe
06-14-2010, 05:17 PM
ANd, in saying this, that means a PL mount GH-1 (far far cheaper than an MKii with PL mount and much more flexible, since just about any PL glass including 16mm will cover the GH-1 sensor) has the potential to rip grass.

Just to point out, through quite a bit of testing I must report that most 16mm glass in the 8mm to 25mm range will NOT cover the GH1 sensor. You get serious vignetting. Most 16mm glass in the 50mm to 75mm range will cover the GH1 sensor.

Also to be noted, with the Canon full frame sensor cameras, many of the older wide angle 35mm glass, especially the 35mm cine lenses like the Cooke Speed Panchros and Zeiss Standard Speed primes, will not cover the full frame sensor. With the lenses wider than 25mm you get a situation known as port holing, which looks like vignetting, but is actually caused by the light rays coming off the back of the lens at such an angle that they will not reach to the bottom of the little pockets that hold the sensor pixels. They work fine for full frame 35mm film because film grain doesn't care what angle the light comes from, but for a CMOS sensor to record an image, the light needs to be coming pretty straight into the front of the sensor. The RED ONE camera has this same issue.

Best,
-Tim

Isaac_Brody
06-14-2010, 05:18 PM
T
With the Canon, you are somewhat limited to very high quality (but also expensive) Canon EF lenses or the few Zeiss offerings, unless you are willing to pay thousands of dollars to have the front of the camera torn off and replaced with a PL mount, which then limits you to PL mount lenses.

I find the GH1 much more versatile when it comes to high quality glass.

Best,
-Tim


I wouldn't say somewhat limited, you can use affordable Contax Zeiss, Nikon manual lenses, and plenty of other choices on the Canons. It's not as versatile as the GH1 for lenses, but it's no slouch or as limited as you suggest.

cowpunk52
06-14-2010, 06:12 PM
At the very least, if nothing else, the new firmware hack brings the GH1 on par with the Canon's offerings in terms of price/performance/features. It's still not a 100% perfect total package, but it also has several great things that are missing in the Canons. None of them are perfect.

So, I'm the one that posted those comparison screengrabs between the 5D & Gh1(3). After doing a lot testing and comparison between the two, I decided to sell the 5D mark II and keep the GH13. For me, the choice came down to these factors:

1) I can use the GH1 for wide & deep DOF in situations where a 5DII would choke on colored moire, and still get creamy bokeh when I want shallow DOF.
2) I own a much wider selection of great glass to use with the GH13 because of how easy it is to adapt lenses. I'm covered from 7mm to 400mm.
3) Conversion to ProRes takes significantly less time with AVCHD vs Canon's h.264
4) I found that several of Canon's zoom lenses can't be counted on giving me an accurate t-stop in accordance with it's f-stop as compared to what I experience with m4/3 lenses & legacy prime glass. I think this is why the GH1 can "feel" more light sensitive when compared. I know this is a lens issue, and primes are probably much better to use to get a fast aperture, but it really itches my craw when I expect to get a certain brightness out of lens, and it doesn't deliver (I'm looking at you 24-105 f4 L).
5) GH13 feels sharper, and I personally like that look. When I tried to sharpen the 5DII to match, I got halos.
6) I find the overall shooting experience to be much more pleasant with the GH1, thanks to the swivel screen, EVF & lighter weight

Finally, most of the reasons that caused me to get a 5DII to use in lieu of the GH1 in the first place have been alleviated by the firmware hack: pulldown, mud & PAL shooting modes being the most important for me. For me, since the firmware hack, the only thing that the 5DII had over my GH1 was shallower DOF and about 2-3 stops ISO advantage. When it came down to it, I was sitting on a depreciating piece of gear that could be traded in for something as much or more useful to me.

I can still certainly see why someone would choose a 5D II over a GH1. Better ISO performance combined with a Vista Vision sized sensor is a huuuuuggee deal, but for me, not a dealbreaker. Granted, my 5D II has only been gone for a little over a day now, but I haven't missed it yet ;) For someone in the market, though, the choice between a GH1, T2i & a 7D, however, just got a lot more difficult - especially once you realize the crop factor of the GH1 vs APS-C is more minimal than once thought due to the GH1's oversized sensor.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 06:16 PM
At the very least, if nothing else, the new firmware hack brings the GH1 on par with the Canon's offerings in terms of price/performance/features. It's still not a 100% perfect total package, but it also has several great things that are missing in the Canons. None of them are perfect.

So, I'm the one that posted those comparison screengrabs between the 5D & Gh1(3). After doing a lot testing and comparison between the two, I decided to sell the 5D mark II and keep the GH13. For me, the choice came down to these factors:

1) I can use the GH1 for wide & deep DOF in situations where a 5DII would choke on colored moire, and still get creamy bokeh when I want shallow DOF.
2) I own a much wider selection of great glass to use with the GH13 because of how easy it is to adapt lenses. I'm covered from 7mm to 400mm.
3) Conversion to ProRes takes significantly less time with AVCHD vs Canon's h.264
4) I found that several of Canon's zoom lenses can't be counted on giving me an accurate t-stop in accordance with it's f-stop as compared to what I experience with m4/3 lenses & legacy prime glass. I think this is why the GH1 can "feel" more light sensitive when compared. I know this is a lens issue, and primes are probably much better to use to get a fast aperture, but it really itches my craw when I expect to get a certain brightness out of lens, and it doesn't deliver (I'm looking at you 24-105 f4 L).
5) GH13 feels sharper, and I personally like that look. When I tried to sharpen the 5DII to match, I got halos.
6) I find the overall shooting experience to be much more pleasant with the GH1, thanks to the swivel screen, EVF & lighter weight

Finally, most of the reasons that caused me to get a 5DII to use in lieu of the GH1 in the first place have been alleviated by the firmware hack: pulldown, mud & PAL shooting modes being the most important for me. For me, since the firmware hack, the only thing that the 5DII had over my GH1 was shallower DOF and about 2-3 stops ISO advantage. When it came down to it, I was sitting on a depreciating piece of gear that could be traded in for something as much or more useful to me.

I can still certainly see why someone would choose a 5D II over a GH1. Better ISO performance combined with a Vista Vision sized sensor is a huuuuuggee deal, but for me, not a dealbreaker. Granted, my 5D II has only been gone for a little over a day now, but I haven't missed it yet ;) For someone in the market, though, the choice between a GH1, T2i & a 7D, however, just got a lot more difficult - especially once you realize the crop factor of the GH1 vs APS-C is more minimal than once thought due to the GH1's oversized sensor.

Very very informative. My thing was 5D larger sensor or GH1's versatility. This sewed it up for me.

J Davis
06-14-2010, 06:28 PM
It's great is now we have so many options. What the 5D brings to the table is that you can shoot video full frame and that in itself allows us shooters the ability to get certain shots that no other camera can get. Especially in enclosed interior situations where you cannot move back.

The only area now where the GH13/GH1 suffer a little is that it can be tough shooting wide, especially if you are cropping 1080p down to 1:2.35 or 1:2.39. Luckily it's lack of a mirror makes up for this with lens choices.

Oedipax
06-14-2010, 06:30 PM
I might be alone here, but stability is still a big issue for me with the GH13 in terms of write speed errors. I'm still able to invoke write speed errors with deep focus nature scenes, especially with the kit lens which I think we all know now is driving the camera harder than non-native glass. But I can do it on my 24mm Nikon, too - and I'm sure this would worsen with a Sigma 12-24 or what have you.

I'm confident the dust will settle with more testing and we'll be able to arrive at some settings (or, more likely, a set of a few different settings to match a given situation) that are solid. We'll need the corresponding SD cards as well that work best with the camera/setting combo. Bottom line, it's a lot of variables that still need to be checked, rechecked, hammered on by large numbers of people so we can reach a consensus. Right now I would be super nervous doing any kind of paid work on a GH13... not so much with the 5D, although that certainly has its own anxiety-inducing problems. It's just more of a known quantity since it's been out for much longer. With the GH13 things are still changing/evolving/improving practically every hour!

J Davis
06-14-2010, 06:31 PM
right now i would be super nervous doing any kind of paid work on a gh13...

+1 agree, but this will slowly change I am sure as testing continues

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 06:39 PM
Very very informative. My thing was 5D larger sensor or GH1's versatility. This sewed it up for me.LOL The life would be quite easier if we could keep the things up as simple as that ;-)
They will always produce different results, count on it.
Imagine if all painters would rather follow Caravaggio. Poor humankind, without Modigliani.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6351/caravaggiothecallingofs.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2325/modiglianiautoretratoma.jpg

Isaac_Brody
06-14-2010, 06:43 PM
It's great to have choices.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 06:55 PM
LOL The life would be quite easier if we could keep the things up as simple as that ;-)
They will always produce different results, count on it.
Imagine if all painters would rather follow Caravaggio. Poor humankind, without Modigliani.



Indeed. Don't disagree with ya. Just won't be the MKii I own until the aliasing/moire gets fixed or I run across extra change. Til then, RED MX and GH13 will be it for me.

As you said, 50% glass. I'll take the option to PL mount without having to hack the camera to pieces.

=P Different strokes! Which is why we all need to just shoot and stop wondering which camera we need! We need the one available at our price point and level.

That's it.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 07:02 PM
Indeed. Don't disagree with ya. Just won't be the MKii I own until the aliasing/moire gets fixed or I run across extra change. Til then, RED MX and GH13 will be it for me.

As you said, 50% glass. I'll take the option to PL mount without having to hack the camera to pieces.

=P Different strokes! Which is why we all need to just shoot and stop wondering which camera we need! We need the one available at our price point and level.

That's it.It is true.

Have you ever shot with the Iscorama?

Here's something to be worthy to take a look if not seen, yet:

http://vimeo.com/sotong/videos/page:2/sort:newest

J Davis
06-14-2010, 07:14 PM
I don't think this has been mentioned here yet, but one advantage that I like with the t2i/7d is that it can act as the best Directors Viewfinder ever because of its 1:1 field of view reference to super 35 film or s35 RED.

T2i/7d is like a Directors Viewfinder that can record – great for video story boards and communicating ideas with a DP. For this reason I will always have an aps-c vDSLR. Even after I've moved onto the ever ellusive 2/3 scarlet.
.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 07:18 PM
It is true.

Have you ever shot with the Iscorama?

Here's something to be worthy to take a look if not seen, yet:

http://vimeo.com/sotong/videos/page:2/sort:newest


I had an Iscorama 50 before it got popular, and sold it off before I knew I could sucker people into paying more. Hahaha. It's a great piece of glass...

I am a bit spoiled and have connections to cinema anamorphic glass now, and if I need to shoot at the spur of the moment a set of Lomo Anamorphics await... I'll definitely be placing some Hawk's or cheaper Clairmonts on the GH-1.

Wonder how that'll look if we can get the 4x3 High Bitrate/Compression that was pitched the other day?

Again, not knocking the MKii. If we're weighing a more expensive camera with a cult phenom lens that costs over halfof what the camera body costs, is it not fair to put the GH1 + PL mount + PL glass in the pot?

Which is why saying one is better just makes no sense.

=] We must have options... so long as they have manual controls at least.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't think this has been mentioned here yet, but one advantage that I like with the t2i/7d is that it can act as the best Directors Viewfinder ever because of its 1:1 field of view reference to super 35 film or s35 RED.

T2i/7d is like a Directors Viewfinder that can record – great for video story boards and communicating ideas with a DP. For this reason I will always have an aps-c vDSLR. Even after I've moved onto the ever ellusive 2/3 scarlet.
.

I can't remember the exact translation of what the GH1 shoots in Video mode, it was long ago recognized that it is maybe 3-4mm or so off of the RED's true frame.

They're all in the same "arena" at this point. The difference between APS-C and GH1's video mode is probably negligible and comes down to just wanting the extra few mm's versus shifting the camera a foot or two.

Neither are anywhere near the size of Full Frame, nor are the difference between GH1 and 7D/T2i as great as GH1/t2i/7D to 5D.

cowpunk52
06-14-2010, 07:26 PM
I can't remember the exact translation of what the GH1 shoots in Video mode, it was long ago recognized that it is maybe 3-4mm or so off of the RED's true frame.

They're all in the same "arena" at this point. The difference between APS-C and GH1's video mode is probably negligible and comes down to just wanting the extra few mm's versus shifting the camera a foot or two.

Neither are anywhere near the size of Full Frame, nor are the difference between GH1 and 7D/T2i as great as GH1/t2i/7D to 5D.

I believe it was figured out to be a 1.18x crop factor in 16:9 mode between the GH1 and Canon APS-C. If memory serves correct, Barry Green came up with that (but don't quote me).

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 07:26 PM
I had an Iscorama 50 before it got popular, and sold it off before I knew I could sucker people into paying more. Hahaha. It's a great piece of glass...

I am a bit spoiled and have connections to cinema anamorphic glass now, and if I need to shoot at the spur of the moment a set of Lomo Anamorphics await... I have a few sets of Lomos, Ekrans, etc. I felt in love for the Iscorama anyway. With the 5D Mark II, they are the perfect couple.

J Davis
06-14-2010, 07:31 PM
pasted from my handy text file on my desktop ...



Still Photography Film
Full Frame Still Film is 36mm x 24mm

Digital Full Frame DSLR (canon 5DM2)
36mm x 24mm

Movies Film
Three Perf Academy 35mm is 22mm x 12mm
Four Perf Academy 35mm is 22mm x 16mm
Three Perf Super 35mm is 24.89mm x 14mm
Four Perf Super 35mm is 24.89 x 18.66mm

7d and t2i
22.3mm x 14.9mm

RED s35
24.4mm x 13.7mm

REDMX s35
30mm x 15mm



.

J Davis
06-14-2010, 07:33 PM
and GH1 / GH13
17.3 x 13mm
(not sure on video crop but likely to be smaller)

edit: I think the 1dm4 is also close like the t2i. Off the top of my head I think its 2.5 mm wider than s35

.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 07:42 PM
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=211714

Hunter and I were saying this a while ago. It's come back around. Enjoy.

J Davis
06-14-2010, 07:47 PM
GH1 sensor for video
(as updated from Kholi's link, thanks kholi)
18.9 x 10.22mm


I'll still take a t2i over any of the others as a point of reference as its within 1mm on the width, just my preference tho
:)

.

Emanuel
06-14-2010, 07:58 PM
The issue with the Canons @ wide end is they actually loose the competition to the GH1 winner as far as sharpness concerns. Yet more critical with the GH13 hack. But if we're discussing other variables as DOF, smoothness, glass choice and such, ISO, etc, we need to be able to tell a different story then.

Stephen Mick
06-14-2010, 08:03 PM
The issue with the Canons @ wide end is they actually loose the competition to the GH1 winner as far as sharpness concerns.


My Canon 7D and Tokina 11-16 f2.8 would beg to differ. I've never had any sharpness issues at full wide with any of my Canon lenses.

J Davis
06-14-2010, 08:04 PM
The issue with the Canons @ wide end is they actually loose the competition to the GH1 winner as far as sharpness concerns.

Are you talking canon lenses? What if its zeiss or nikon on aps-c

J Davis
06-14-2010, 08:07 PM
My Canon 7D and Tokina 11-16 f2.8 would beg to differ.

Oh no ... I sense an incoming stadium pic from Matt (braces for impact)

Kholi
06-14-2010, 08:07 PM
The issue with the Canons @ wide end is they actually loose the competition to the GH1 winner as far as sharpness concerns. Yet more critical with the GH13 hack. But if we're discussing other variables as DOF, smoothness, glass choice and such, ISO, etc, we need to be able to tell a different story then.


This is a good assessment, Emanuel. We saw this when Richard Darge did some of the first light comparisons of the 5D to RED. Since 5D/7D/T2i are horrible as far as aliasing/moire goes, the detail goes to hell on wide shots with lots of information as far as video goes and looks crunchy/bad. Versus the RED which can resolve down to finer detail.

The GH1 exhibiting less moire aliasing etc is going to look "cleaner" and more "resolute" on the wide end, with the compression hack much more than the Canon crops.

However, that's just one part of it all. This is exactly why I want to try out the PL mount on the GH13 in addition to high speed PL lenses. This should happen within a day or so.

It will be interesting to see how the whole story works out, and I am hoping it's a good one so that I can keep the GH1 for small jobs in which I do not want to lug the RED around.

If not, then I'll continue to just shoot RED MX for everything and maybe borrow a 7D and use what glass I still have.

Oedipax
06-14-2010, 08:08 PM
Not about lenses, I don't think, just the way the cameras make a 1080p or 720p image from the full sensor readout. Compare a video & still of the same wide shot with the same lens, shutter, f/stop, ISO, etc., and you will see the difference. Or take that still into Photoshop and downres it to 1920x1080, then compare that with the .MOV - no comparison as far as resolution and detail goes, and lack of aliasing.

What some are finding is the GH1 with new firmware seems to do a better job of outputting a crisp 1080 with some of the issues the Canons have, presumably because it's using a better downscale method.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 08:09 PM
Not about lenses, I don't think, just the way the cameras make a 1080p or 720p image from the full sensor readout. Compare a video & still of the same wide shot with the same lens, shutter, f/stop, ISO, etc., and you will see the difference. Or take that still into Photoshop and downres it to 1920x1080, then compare that with the .MOV - no comparison as far as resolution and detail goes, and lack of aliasing.

What some are finding is the GH1 with new firmware seems to do a better job of outputting a crisp 1080 with some of the issues the Canons have, presumably because it's using a better downscale method.

We must remind ourselves that Resolution or Resolving Power is not the only characteristic of a lens.

RED Pro Primes resolve a tremendous amount of detail, they are still no comparison to Master Primes for look.

J Davis
06-14-2010, 08:42 PM
the detail goes to hell on wide shots

comprende! light bulb goes off. Now I know what Emmanuel meant.

@Kholi - there is a PL mount GH1 with a 25mm Red Pro Prime sample in the GH1 screening room

lemme dig around for a link

edit: got it

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=208690






.

Kholi
06-14-2010, 08:52 PM
Yeah yah! I saw it. Not my personal way of shooting and not my personal choice in glass. RPP's are a bit eh to me. Got a Mattebox, rods and a full set of NDs ready to test with the ZMPs though!

J Davis
06-14-2010, 09:06 PM
Well get to it Kholi !! I await your footage brother

ryancglover
06-15-2010, 06:57 AM
Yeah yah! I saw it. Not my personal way of shooting and not my personal choice in glass. RPP's are a bit eh to me. Got a Mattebox, rods and a full set of NDs ready to test with the ZMPs though!

i agree with you about the RPP.. pretty character-less and too perfect for me.. (but we were on lunch and the box of lenses was just sitting there.. who could resist!)

Samuel H
06-16-2010, 01:24 AM
I'm probably buying a camera in the next few days, and it can either be a t2i/550D or a GF1

GF1 pros:
* less troublesome line skipping, aliasing, and moire (formerly I stated "no line skiping", then got corrected)
* really small: with 20mm pancake I will take it out much more often
* may eventually get 4:2:2 at 1080p under AVCHD (and I think it's already working under MJPEG)

GF1 cons:
* FPN/banding
* no manual controls for video so far
* no way I'm going to be able to pull focus on such a low-res screen
* worse under low-light
* shane hurlbut says GH1's footage looks like video, not like film

so the t2i is winning so far

Barry_Green
06-16-2010, 09:47 AM
The GH1 definitely line-skips, has aliasing, and has moire. All DSLRs do. The difference is that on the Canons there's also chroma aliasing and color contamination to the moire (purple/orange), whereas on the others (Panasonic, Nikon, Pentax) there isn't.

But don't think that you're getting away from aliasing -- they all do it.

Why would you be putting up a GF1 against a t2i anyway? The proper camera to compare there is the GH1.


shane hurlbut says GH1's footage looks like video, not like film
Where did you hear this? I searched Hurlbut's blog and nothing like that popped up.

If you need outside testimonials, Robert McLachlan, ASC (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0572123/)seems to like the GH1 plenty. And that was before the GH13.

Here's an extract of a post McLachlan made on Illya Friedman's Hot Rod Cameras page, about the GH1:

At Technicolor Vancouver I viewed the material with master colorist Gary Shaw and we both cracked up when we saw it. It’s SO good. Gary had timed 16mm and 35mm stuff I shot 20+ years ago and was amazed. The camera was sitting on the bench beside us. Phil meanwhile looked hard at the colorimetry and declared it really good. So…. on Sunday I mounted it in an unmanned ambulance going 40 mph. that we crashed into a concrete barrier and the footage is terrific. It will appear in the new FOX series Human Target in January following American Idol… so stay tuned. I can’t wait to get one of my nice Cooke S4i’s on it.

You can see the full post in the comments towards the bottom of this page:
http://www.hotrodcameras.com/2009/06/17-tips-for-shooting-with-the-panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh1/

Lowlypawn
06-16-2010, 10:02 AM
major reasons to consider a gh1 over a canon would be if you need autofocus during video recording,or the live viewfinder, or the live histogram, or the articulating lcd, or you want to get rid of the purple/green moire that the canons exhibit, or if you want to shoot 4:2:2 intraframe instead of only 4:2:0 long-gop, or if you want clean/sharp 720/60p.


lol

I love my GH1 and have not even upgraded the firmware yet. I probably will at some point once the dust settles.

Adventsam
06-16-2010, 02:04 PM
Stay with 50/60i, go with 60, 62, 70, they are mouthwatering.

bonobored
06-16-2010, 02:19 PM
Hey you guys, what with all the crap about various cards, lack of standards and different data rates, I was wondering, does storage have to be onboard? Can a dock be made that fits into the SD card slot and cables out to an SSD or one of these?

http://www.focusinfo.com/dynassets/documents/products/FS-CF-DS_US_4.1.10.pdf

Adventsam
06-16-2010, 02:26 PM
Seriously, you need to check out these new settings, as it stands this could be more than enough for anyone;-)

Crimson_Fluid
06-17-2010, 02:04 AM
How are you guys getting good focused images if you can't monitor it externally? Also isn't the GH-1 screen lower resolution compared to the T2i screen?

I understand the histogram view is on the GH-1 but is it still hard to get great focused images just with that?

WesScog
06-17-2010, 02:57 AM
Well it's got a really good autofocus mode in video, usually I just turn that on, let it auto focus, then I turn Manual on and tweak from there. Usually letting it autofocus is good enough, it's nice and sharp I hardly ever have to tweak it.

It's also got a focus assist mode so it magnifies the image in really close so you can clearly see how focused it is or not.

Martti Ekstrand
06-17-2010, 03:19 AM
How are you guys getting good focused images if you can't monitor it externally? Also isn't the GH-1 screen lower resolution compared to the T2i screen?

The electronic viewfinder that's active in video mode is more hi-res (1,440,000 dots) and it's great for on-the-fly focusing. No need for a expensive strap-on loupe. Check "The Farmer's Flea Market" in my sig link which I shot entirely by using the EVF.

For more repeatable shots I use the focus assist magnification quite a lot, it's fast and accurate, so it's very easy to set markers on my follow focus.

This histogram is for monitoring exposure on the fly, not focus.

Samuel H
06-17-2010, 07:06 AM
Where did you hear this? I searched Hurlbut's blog and nothing like that popped up.


I asked in the comments of the post about "Turning Still Cameras Into PL Mount Movie Makers ", and he answered; I consider him the most critical and difficult-to-please of all the DSLR revolution bloggers

for me the natural comparison is GF1 vs T2i, because those are the ones with the same price; GH1 is much more expensive... unless I get a japanese body-only deal on ebay, which I consider quite a risky thing to do (lots of things that can go wrong)

(I'll modify my post about line skipping)

Samuel H
06-17-2010, 07:20 AM
How are you guys getting good focused images if you can't monitor it externally? Also isn't the GH-1 screen lower resolution compared to the T2i screen?

I understand the histogram view is on the GH-1 but is it still hard to get great focused images just with that?


I also wondered that, I guess the answer is on the viewfinder (which the GF1 lacks)
GH1 LCD screen: 460.000 dots (480x320 ??)
GH1 EVF: 1.440.000 dots (900x540 ??)
T2i LDC screen: 1.040.000 dots (680x510 ??)

(sorry, I hadn't seen the previous reply)

zcream
06-18-2010, 03:40 AM
One thing I have not understood.
7D/T2i record in mpeg4 at 48mbps
Since MJPEG does not allow 25P24P, the comparison is AVCHD at 30mbps (and despite the 60,62, 70 settings I have NEVER seen it go higher).
If both are interframe, then the GH1 pic should have more artifacts/ However I am not seeing this in comparison between T2i vs GH1.
Unless the 7D is intraframe.
The compression really makes no sense.

Adventsam
06-18-2010, 03:50 AM
One thing I have not understood.
7D/T2i record in mpeg4 at 48mbps
Its all AVC H264 though
Since MJPEG does not allow 25P24P, the comparison is AVCHD at 30mbps (and despite the 60,62, 70 settings I have NEVER seen it go higher).
I am regularly getting 35mbit+avg, 40+mb spikes in 50i, 25p will be higher IMO, but avc is vbr I think as std. What Canon did is a custom specific implementation. CBR of a from in GH1 would be good, but am not sure its possible, maybe Vitaliy can work it out.
If both are interframe, then the GH1 pic should have more artifacts/ However I am not seeing this in comparison between T2i vs GH1.
Not sure, dont have a 7d
Unless the 7D is intraframe.
The compression really makes no sense.

Cheers

zcream
06-18-2010, 03:56 AM
Hi Adventsam.
So the Canons use a CBR AVC H.264 fixed rate interframe.
The GH1 used a VBR AVCHD that is maximally in the 30s with spikes in the 40s.
Its still more compression than the Canons.

Adventsam
06-18-2010, 04:18 AM
why many prefer low light Canon footage, but am no expert here, would need to see side-side tests. Not sure 100% about Canon CBR, but I think AFAIK is case.

Barry_Green
06-18-2010, 10:26 AM
Its still more compression than the Canons.
Not necessarily. It is the same compression family, but do we know that they use the same compression tools?

You cannot just compare them and say "well, they're both h.264, so the only difference is bitrate." Because AVCCAM AVCHD is h.264, but at 21mbps PH mode, it's dramatically superior to what the Canons do in 50mbps.

h.264 has many, many tools that can be employed, and the codec implementer has the freedom to choose what they will or won't use.

The only way you could fairly compare GH1 and 7D, based on bitrate alone, is if you knew for a fact that they were both using all the same toolsets. And I don't think such information has ever been released or verified. The debate about VBR vs. CBR is just one of many potential explanations that may or may not be accurate.

What we're missing here is a relative "efficiency" rating for how the codec is performing. The HA mode in AVCCAM is very efficient, squeezing the full image into 17mbps. The FHD mode in the stock GH1 is very inefficient, producing an image in 17mbps that can't hold a candle to the AVCCAM version. The AVCCAM HA mode is hugely massively better than the GH1's FHD version, even though they're both h.264 at 17 megabits.

So -- just because the GH1 and Canon are running at more-comparable megabits now, doesn't mean that the compression is equivalent between them.