PDA

View Full Version : GH1 firmware research volunteers required



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13

RandyQ
05-19-2010, 08:28 PM
PayPal balance: $551.11 USD

we could maybe get another Gh1 if needed. one for heavy work. unless the Gf1 is necessary.
i'm waiting for a vendor on ebay to come back from vacation to order a G1.

Hey Car30,
Care to share who your vendor is? Seems to be a reliable fellow and maybe I can buy a GH1 body from him too!

Daniel S.
05-20-2010, 12:44 AM
Ok, i asked him for high-quality pictures. Lets see if he answers.

Daniel

No answer so far..

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 01:50 AM
Maybe we could offer him a Donation for his busticated GH1..i cant imagine it will be easily re assembled by him or a service department?..

what do you reckon, Would this be useful Tester?

No, we don't know state of boards. They can be damaged.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 01:53 AM
Hey Car30,
Care to share who your vendor is? Seems to be a reliable fellow and maybe I can buy a GH1 body from him too!

As far as I remember it was cameraland at ebay.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 01:58 AM
PayPal balance: $551.11 USD
we could maybe get another Gh1 if needed. one for heavy work. unless the Gf1 is necessary.
i'm waiting for a vendor on ebay to come back from vacation to order a G1.

Most people who donated lately did it for GF1 specifically.
And we must honour their requests.

I believe we had a guy in this thread who promized good prices for GF1 and G1.
May be use him, rather than wait?

gemüsesaft
05-20-2010, 02:23 AM
I donated for GH1, but I understand a GH1 body is on its way to tester13...
Please excuse if this question has been covered before (I dont understand all them technical terms here) but is there any chance of increasing framerates for slo-mo-recording ? (ie 120fps)
Is there also a chance of changing the aspect ratio to 2,35:1 ?

Greetings

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 02:32 AM
I donated for GH1, but I understand a GH1 body is on its way to tester13...

You are correct here.


Please excuse if this question has been covered before (I dont understand all them technical terms here) but is there any chance of increasing framerates for slo-mo-recording ? (ie 120fps)

No. Sensor must be redesigned to allow such speed.


Is there also a chance of changing the aspect ratio to 2,35:1 ?

May be. It is very long shot.
Also many parts seem to be coded specifically for 720p and 1080p compression.
It is not that hard to shoot at different aspect ratio, you need semi-transparent sticky tape on screen as guides and later process video using crop filter.

gemüsesaft
05-20-2010, 03:12 AM
No. Sensor must be redesigned to allow such speed.What about increasing fps and decreasing resolution ? Would that be possible ?


It is not that hard to shoot at different aspect ratio, you need semi-transparent sticky tape on screen as guides and later process video using crop filter.Thats the way i am doing it now... But this way i am wasting data by cropping. I thought of the framerate benefiting from an different aspect ratio, for example if there was a resolution of 1920x850, could it be recorded at 50 respectively 60 fps ?

Thanks for your quick reply

Greetings

gemüsesaft
05-20-2010, 03:15 AM
Me again..


Also many parts seem to be coded specifically for 720p and 1080p compression.

Speaking of which, someone in another thread wondered if gh1 could be modified to raw output in HDD or SDD. Any chance of this being possible ?

Again, please excuse if this was discussed already.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 03:24 AM
Speaking of which, someone in another thread wondered if gh1 could be modified to raw output in HDD or SDD. Any chance of this being possible ?


No.
If you want RAW capture buy Canon 7D or Mark II.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 03:26 AM
I thought of the framerate benefiting from an different aspect ratio, for example if there was a resolution of 1920x850, could it be recorded at 50 respectively 60 fps ?

No it could not be recorded at 50fps.
All this requires new sensor and new LSI. Or entirely new camera, in other words.

I believe people sometimes concentrate on technical stuff instead of normal ideas, script, lighting and acting.
I am bored to see crap made using many 5D Mark II cameras.

gemüsesaft
05-20-2010, 03:50 AM
Of course I concentrate on technical stuff, as i transform the ideas of the script writers into moving images. Those are to be high quality visual entertainment, so I try to understand the technical issues you need to achieve those images. All of this of course low-budget, that is why i am busy following this thread and donating, otherwise I would have bought a RED or a 5dmII or something similar :-)

anyway, thanks for your quick replies, I try hard not to make boring crap with my gh1 :-)

surfer030303
05-20-2010, 07:10 AM
Hi Tester, Sorry to disturb you among your precious research but I am a little confused about the number I have to write in the Ptool for the version change. Now I am using the GH1_1.32.bin.
Thanks for your answer.

outbreaker
05-20-2010, 08:27 AM
tester13. Could you give me a help?

I have tried to open GH1 firmware 1.32 with IDA 4.9 Pro. However, I have been not able to open file.

I choose mn103 processor, and fill up "0x04000000" in ROM start address and Loading address.

IDA keeps saying
"You have just loaded a binary file.

IDA Pro can't identify the entry point automatically as
there is no standard of binaries.

Please move to what you think is an entry point
and press "C" to start the autoanalysis."

I pointed address "0x0400000" for entry point, and pressed "C". Nothing happened. I Could see a lot of strings, but no function. There should be something I missed...

Can you help me what I did wrong? I'm new at IDA..

Rabot
05-20-2010, 08:59 AM
Throwing such ideas, unfortunately, is useless. As such things are much more complex.

Well, it might make more sense than simply change one value, since I guess the whole thing is used to compress to a 16x9 ratio.

But yeah, I don't know shit aobut that stuff, it simply make more sense that way.

ai_torito
05-20-2010, 09:09 AM
outbreaker:
all those messages are normal, but when you press 'c' the first couple of bytes should turn into something like:
mov 0x40000018, A1
jmp (A1)

maybe it's a typo in your post, but the correct loading address is 0x40000000
also, there are checksums in the .bin file that you need to remove

or maybe you simply expected more to happen :)

nikgid
05-20-2010, 09:45 AM
I believe people sometimes concentrate on technical stuff instead of normal ideas, script, lighting and acting.

Oh yes! That would be too good to be true! Please realize scripting possibilities for the G[HF]1 somehow, sometime in the future.
That feature is for example one of the main strengths of the "Canon Hackers Development Kit" - CHDK (http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK_BARTHIBAN)
... via scripts there are features available like motion-detection (for lightning photography etc.), all kinds of advanced bracketing, timelapse etc. - scripting capability would be the gateway for many features!
And with a well-documented scripting language implemented (like Lua in CHDKs case) there will be more developers being able to help produce features (in form of scripts) on an easier level (than assembler).
But I understand this would be a major milestone - if it is possible at all. But it would be sooo awesome!
Maybe some of the old CHDK-developers there might even be willing to use their experience on a really decent camera for a change :D

Just to dream about all those possibilities makes me happy :)

outbreaker
05-20-2010, 09:57 AM
ai torito :

Thanks. You're right. I could find what you said. I had known wrong loading address..
I tried again with new loading address 0x40000000, and I have following..

mov unk_40000018, A1
jmp (A1)


What should I do to remove checksum from .bin file ?
What would I see if I remove checksum from .bin file ?

nikgid
05-20-2010, 10:12 AM
Maybe some of the old CHDK-developers there might even be willing to use their experience on a really decent camera for a change :D

Just to dream about all those possibilities makes me happy :)

To get this dream to become a reality I posted in the CHDK-forums for development of non-Canon-cameras to try and get some of the veteran CHDK-developers interested.
See here: http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php/topic,3630.new.html#new

Just trying to help with doing some "networking" - I hope this is okay and wanted. If not, please tell me.

Chibs
05-20-2010, 10:39 AM
I believe people sometimes concentrate on technical stuff instead of normal ideas, script, lighting and acting.

That's because this is a thread about technicality, and not about script, lighting, and acting. :)
Not to disregard your work, but I currently see no point in getting GF1 and G1 bodies, you are working alone and working on seperate cameras would only increase the amount of work and lessen the results..

outbreaker
05-20-2010, 10:41 AM
I studied about checksum for mn103 series.

Sparkie from CHDK said "After every 32 bytes there's a 2 byte checksum that needs to be removed before you can start doing any disassembly."

Is there any tool to remove checksum ?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 10:58 AM
That's because this is a thread about technicality, and not about script, lighting, and acting.

And you re wrong here.
We must constantly remind people that real limitations lie in their minds and these things, and not in bitrate, etc.
This do not mean that we must not be trying to improve GH1, it just means that most problems are not solved by the patch.


Not to disregard your work, but I currently see no point in getting GF1 and G1 bodies, you are working alone and working on seperate cameras would only increase the amount of work and lessen the results..

And I see big point in this.
We have good reasons to get this bodies.
First, many people donated especially to have some patches ported to their cameras.
Second, we need to test many risky patches and two bodies complement each other very good in this area.
Third, I have special tools to port our work from GH1 to G1 and GF1 and back.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 11:01 AM
I studied about checksum for mn103 series.


You are wasting your time and my time.
As I already said, we'll get G1 nd GF1 bodies soon, so all patches will be ported.
I want to keep this project as legally clean as possible. So, porting starts as soon as they'll be bought.
CHDK guys are very good and smart, but they have legality problems written all other them and I don't want to give chance to shut this project because of this.

Car3o
05-20-2010, 04:08 PM
can someone explain the legalities of hacking firmware? if you're not selling anything, how are you breaking any laws? i didn't see anyone get arrested for modding their xboxes. this is the same concept. i have never once seen or heard of a person on the news that was arrested for hacking/modding an electronic. your camera, do whatever you want, you just void the warranty.

Barry_Green
05-20-2010, 04:33 PM
"selling" has nothing to do with "legal". Do you think all the people who rip and upload movies and music to free filesharing sites are "selling" something? They're not. But it's still illegal.

The owner of a copyrighted work has a right to determine how that work gets distributed, or even if it does get distributed. The firmware in a camcorder is a copyrighted piece of computer code. tester13 is taking the right approach when he refuses to redistribute someone else's copyrighted work. Instead, he's telling people where they can get it, and then allowing modification of it. If he modified it and redistributed it, then he would be violating the copyright in exactly the same degree as if someone took your film from you, changed it around a little bit, and distributed it.

Whether he's charging money for the service or not, doesn't change the underlying legal issue of taking someone else's property and distributing it without authorization. tester13 is doing it the right way.

Path
05-20-2010, 04:53 PM
Barry is right here. And to tester's point about owning a GF1, the Copyright Act states that an owner of a copy of software can copy for their own use. IANAL, but I would venture a guess that copyright issues surrounding software can get very complicated. There's the difficulty of ideas vs expression, that for software can be tricky, not to mention trade secrets, etc. I think Tester is being rather smart and has shown he knows a thing or two about this issue.

j1clark@ucsd.edu
05-20-2010, 04:59 PM
can someone explain the legalities of hacking firmware? if you're not selling anything, how are you breaking any laws? i didn't see anyone get arrested for modding their xboxes. this is the same concept. i have never once seen or heard of a person on the news that was arrested for hacking/modding an electronic. your camera, do whatever you want, you just void the warranty.


This was from quite a few years ago now:

Norway Cracks Down on DVD Hacker
Declan McCullagh Email 01.10.02
DeCSS developer Jon Johansen.

WASHINGTON -- Jon Johansen, a Norwegian teen hacker, has been indicted for allegedly bypassing DVD anti-copying technology.

Read More http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2002/01/49638#ixzz0oVrmE4f1
(http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2002/01/49638#ixzz0oVrmE4f1)


This hack allowed such operating systems as Linux to play DVD's, as the big studios refused to license to the 'linux' community, even if one was playing legitimately purchased DVD media.

Further, the hack allowed people, like myseilf, to play Region 2 DVD's in Region 1... because some idiot decided that people in Region 1 only want to have English, Spanish, or French (occasionally some asian languages...), in either dubbed forms or subtitled forms of disks coming from Region 2... (who ever wants anything from region 3...)

The same imbeciles are at work with Bluray which restores the regioning idiocy... HDDVD didn't have regioning...

j1clark@ucsd.edu
05-20-2010, 05:03 PM
Barry is right here. And to tester's point about owning a GF1, the Copyright Act states that an owner of a copy of software can copy for their own use. IANAL, but I would venture a guess that copyright issues surrounding software can get very complicated. There's the difficulty of ideas vs expression, that for software can be tricky, not to mention trade secrets, etc. I think Tester is being rather smart and has shown he knows a thing or two about this issue.


Sometimes the EULA, that everyone technically agrees to, who uses the software, even if tacitly by 'running/using' the software, has explicit anti reverse engineering clauses. You are usually granted a 'use' license, pursuant to agreeing to the terms of use.

The usual way people work is they start the machine, run the softare, and blindly click 'accept' when asked in regards to the EULA... never having read the details...

Barry_Green
05-20-2010, 05:41 PM
That also is correct, although I'm not 100% clear on how tightly an EULA binds someone. Just because something's in a contract, if it's not enforceable, then breaking that part of the contract isn't "illegal". For example, if the EULA that you blindly clicked on has a phrase that says "by accepting the terms of this contract, you agree to enslave your children for our nefarious uses", well... slavery ain't legal, so even if it's in the contract, and you agreed to it by clicking on it, you're still not bound to it... it's also been reported that the American Idol contract that the contestants sign restricts you and your family and your friends from having any personal relationships with the judges. Problem is, you can't sign a contract that binds your family and friends in any way. So, yeah, it's in the contract, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

I'm not saying the reverse-engineering clause is the same; what I'm saying is I don't know what is or isn't actually enforceable. But something as simple as redistributing the content, that's obviously enforceable.

TurboTwo
05-20-2010, 05:51 PM
I donated a few weeks ago, but it bounced back. Seeing as a GH1 is on its way, any chance that someone can set up a new Paypal account so that the money donated goes straight to Tester13's pocket?!

:)

Propernice..A while back there were some issues with the Paypal donations which have since been resolved,some others i believe experienced the same as you and Car3o and Tester sorted the problem i believe.So the Donation button on page 1 is now working.
I`m pretty sure Tester posted that any donations are purely for research purposes ie,To buy GH1 body,cards etc..not as a fee. :-)

Car3o
05-20-2010, 06:29 PM
it's not illegal to download, games, movies or music when you own the original content. nor is it illegal to copy dvd. 2002 code to rip dvds was thrown out the door as it became free speech. i own the camera. i can do whatever i want to it. but separate topic, different debate.

Barry_Green
05-20-2010, 07:43 PM
i own the camera. i can do whatever i want to it.
But you cannot, legally, pull out its firmware and redistribute it.

Barry_Green
05-20-2010, 07:46 PM
it's not illegal to download, games, movies or music when you own the original content.
Sounds iffy to me. I see what you're saying, but -- the only way you can download those products is if someone has done something illegal to make them available.

Path
05-20-2010, 07:53 PM
it's not illegal to download, games, movies or music when you own the original content. nor is it illegal to copy dvd. 2002 code to rip dvds was thrown out the door as it became free speech. i own the camera. i can do whatever i want to it. but separate topic, different debate.

Car3o,

Yeah, it's a separate topic, but still related to the thread. Plus, it's already at 100+ pages :)

I do not disagree that you as an owner can do anything you want to the camera and its software. That is different from doing anything you want _with_ the camera and its software. You can take the firmware and mess with it all day long, but if you distribute any of those variations on the firmware then you cross the legal boundary. There is also a grey area if you use your reverse engineering efforts to circumvent copyright protection:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html

Tester is doing enough by just providing the patching tool.

mateogrande
05-20-2010, 08:07 PM
This is the U.S. perspective, which may or may not be the applicable law because of the cross-jurisdictional aspect of this.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/

http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi

However, the U.S. law comprises a larger body of international law in this area, the principle governing treaty being the WIPO Treaty, of which many other nations are signatories and have similar such legal regimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Intellectual_Property_Organization_Copyright _Treaty

And lastly, because you can never be too careful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Sklyarov

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 09:58 PM
Thanks for long and interesting legal discussion.

Here is my two cents:
US law (and DCMA) do not apply here.
From legal side we are very good, and it is best to use simple principle - solve problems after they actually arise.
Normally manufacturers are not against such projects even if clear problems can be seen.
Look at CHDK, almost all guys use illegal IDA versions, sharing of code, parts of SDK violating EULA.

meteogrande
Is it possible to replace this long post with link or something similar?

I believe it is better to move to testing audio features of last PTool versions.

dracore
05-20-2010, 10:04 PM
tester,

I made some changed to wingraph32. First off, hopefully it looks nicer hehe. Removed the existing toolbar so as long as you don't really care about those cartesian fisheye coordinate buttons, it should be similar. I kept the zoom buttons.

There is now an editbox for the max depth. You can also adjust with up/down buttons. I also added realtime node content filtering too.

The latest build can be grabbed here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/389811248/wingraph32.rar.html

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-20-2010, 10:31 PM
tester,

I made some changed to wingraph32. First off, hopefully it looks nicer hehe. Removed the existing toolbar so as long as you don't really care about those cartesian fisheye coordinate buttons, it should be similar. I kept the zoom buttons.


Big thanks!
Just made small tests.
It is much better now.

Noticed two small problems.
1) Node filtering is case sensitive. This must be fixed. If it is possible, you can add ability to use either substring match or starting symbols only (may be checkbox right to the input?).
2) If you specify maximum depth it still require you to click on the node. Best thing is to use root one and do display refresh with small delay after input. So, user can change depth and look at results without leaving input field. Clicking is also good as sometimes it is very useful, but default root node can save some valuable time.

I hope that you could find time at implement return to IDA by clicking of node (to appropriate function). Use Windows system functions to find IDA window (look at WinAPI), change focus, send "g" key and all symbols of function name followed by enter, and it'll jump to function start.

Another very useful thing is try to slightly change rendering using http://www.antigrain.com/ .
If you have big graph with small text labels, anti-aliasing help a lot.

I am really amazed that this tool becoming something useful.

dracore
05-20-2010, 11:02 PM
Great can't wait for you to start taking advantage of this tool :-)

The problem with using the default "root node" is that this app has no concept of what a root node is. All it has is a table of all nodes and edges and where they join up. There is no information indicating which node is actually the root. This is why I made it a requirement for the user to select which node to define as the root.

You should be able to see immediate depth change without leaving input field though.

I'll see what I can do about IDA. If IDA provides windows containing the function names then it should be possible.

Antialiasing library... hmmm.. I'll look into it but no guarantees :)

I'm sure you're sick of hearing it by now but great work on the GH1 firmware so far! Keep hacking away at it :)


BTW regarding the substring search, what do you mean by the "symbol"? Do you mean the first line in the node contents (representing function name or address?)




Big thanks!
2) If you specify maximum depth it still require you to click on the node. Best thing is to use root one and do display refresh with small delay after input. So, user can change depth and look at results without leaving input field. Clicking is also good as sometimes it is very useful, but default root node can save some valuable time.

I hope that you could find time at implement return to IDA by clicking of node (to appropriate function). Use Windows system functions to find IDA window (look at WinAPI), change focus, send "g" key and all symbols of function name followed by enter, and it'll jump to function start.

Another very useful thing is try to slightly change rendering using http://www.antigrain.com/ .
If you have big graph with small text labels, anti-aliasing help a lot.

I am really amazed that this tool becoming something useful.

Car3o
05-21-2010, 12:54 AM
Girl footage, nothing fancy. This is a raw shot with the 24p patch.

http://www.bokehfilms.com/Gh1/00021.MTS

sunsurfh2o
05-21-2010, 01:39 AM
Would like to try my hand at testing the firmware and hoping I could get some advice on what is presently working best, least likely to cause freeze/lock-up.

Video buffer
Bitrate 1
Bitrate 2

720p60
1080p24

Audio buffer
Audio encoding
Audio sampling

Much obliged for any suggestions! And thanks to all who have helped make this hack successful thus far.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-21-2010, 02:17 AM
Would like to try my hand at testing the firmware and hoping I could get some advice on what is presently working best,
Much obliged for any suggestions! And thanks to all who have helped make this hack successful thus far.

Download PTool and read hints, they have some suggestions.
Other than that you must try various things yourself and report us results, this is all unrisky patches.
Start from audio things as this is most problematic now.
As for video - I suggest you to hold testing until we move to more low level settings, as we know almost all that we need today.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-21-2010, 02:31 AM
Great can't wait for you to start taking advantage of this tool :-)

I believe that many people will be thankful, as Ilfak (IDA author) did not do anything useful for many years to this tool.


The problem with using the default "root node" is that this app has no concept of what a root node is.

Try to use color, as I can see that it have color difference visually.


I'll see what I can do about IDA. If IDA provides windows containing the function names then it should be possible.

Here my small suggestion again.
"Use Windows system functions to find IDA window by title (look at WinAPI), change focus to that window, send "g" key and all symbols of function name followed by enter, and it'll jump to function start."
So, you don't need functions list, as you seng G key to IDA small window will popup, send function name (you have it in the tree node), send Enter code and IDA will jump to this function.
It is not hard to implement and you must be able to find many primers on the web and at StackOverflow.


Antialiasing library... hmmm.. I'll look into it but no guarantees :)

It is very simple and popular one. In fact it is like Canvas anternative, so you just have bitmap, but all method produce antialiasing results (TextOut, Line, etc).

You can try aiSee (request free license from them) how antiasiasing works.
They also have different graph display algorithms.
aiSee started from WinGraph32 also.

WinGraph32 uses some weird text display method.
Is it possible to adjust text size to be as big as possible (inside rectangle)?


BTW regarding the substring search, what do you mean by the "symbol"? Do you mean the first line in the node contents (representing function name or address?)

I mean that search could have two modes: search any substring or only starting symbols of each function name. Sometimes I need any substring, but most time starting symbols is prefereble mode.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-21-2010, 02:36 AM
And lastly, because you can never be too careful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Sklyarov

Yeah, Dmitry case was quite interesting.
ElcomSoft is quite special firm, as they are specializing at password breaking tools. They also like to use such cases for marketing purposes.
I believe Adobe was fine while they made this tool and sell it, but they wanted sensation and they sent Dmitry to USA to tell precisely all implementation problems in encryption of PDF files. I believe Adobe requested them not to do this many times :-)

surfer030303
05-21-2010, 03:18 AM
Girl footage, nothing fancy. This is a raw shot with the 24p patch.

http://www.bokehfilms.com/Gh1/00021.MTS
Hey Car, next time make it shorter... lol

nubins
05-21-2010, 08:22 AM
I just bought a GH1 (have not received it yet) but have read through many of the posts in this thread.

I downloaded the software and firmware to look through the help tips, but since everything is spread through so many posts I was wondering if it has been determined what are optimised settings for both 1080 24 and 720p 60?

I am mostly concered with bitrate and GOP. Are these reliable settings:

For 1080 24
Video Buffer: 33.500.000
Bitrate Adjustment 1: 29000000
Bitrate Adjustment 2: 31000000
GOP: 6

For 720p 60
Video Buffer: 28.000.000
Bitrate Adjustment 1: 24000000
Bitrate Adjustment 2: 26000000
GOP: 15

Or can you go to a higher bitrate with out problems?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-21-2010, 09:09 AM
I downloaded the software and firmware to look through the help tips, but since everything is spread through so many posts I was wondering if it has been determined what are optimised settings for both 1080 24 and 720p 60?


No, we don't have optimized settings, due to fact that we must also change P and I frames quality estimators (or compression settings).
Current bitrate setting have some effect (on I frames especially, banding is less). But they are not very useful for simple ordinary user, as is clearly indicated by research status.

nubins
05-21-2010, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the reply and all the hard work.

Are there any good suggestions for bitrate and GOP based on what others have found?

Car3o
05-21-2010, 10:25 AM
Hey Car, next time make it shorter... lol

it was meant to be. never intended to show a full clip of the shoot. just something.

surfer030303
05-21-2010, 10:58 AM
it was meant to be. never intended to show a full clip of the shoot. just something.

Just kidding.
BTW I sent 100 $ more to tester13 even if I am only intersted by GH1.

Solomon Chase
05-21-2010, 11:28 AM
Just replied to PM's from car3o and tester13. I checked with Panasonic and GF1 is in-stock.

John Caballero
05-21-2010, 07:17 PM
Any comments from the testers about how the latest mjpeg 24p patch is working out? Thanks.

Ben_B
05-21-2010, 07:25 PM
Little confused, the front page says Native 24p/25p is done and working....what mode is this for? MJPEG 24p is still being tested yes? Is this for 1080p or 720p AVHCD? If it's for 1080p does "Native" mean pulldown removal is no longer required? Haven't looked at the thread in awhile...read all through front page but still a bit confused.

Ian-T
05-21-2010, 08:21 PM
I have the same questions as BenB. If it's no trouble it would be a cool thing to have sort of a summary on what has been accomplished so far. At 160,000 views and 156 pages of info this is quite cumbersome to go through. Thanks.

Car3o
05-21-2010, 08:25 PM
Mjpeg 24p, still skips frames.

Native 24/25, for 1080p. no pull down required. The footage is native 24p with patch. I've uploaded 2 clips demonstrating it.

Ian-T
05-21-2010, 08:37 PM
Ok cool. The pulldown removal is definitely a major deal.

Car3o
05-21-2010, 08:40 PM
also if you download the ptool, the description is added to each patch. you don't have to mod your camera to use the ptool.

dracore
05-22-2010, 02:46 AM
I see that there is blue color in the primer example but when I generate random GDLs with IDA, all of my graphs are no color backgrounds. Is there some setting I need to turn on in IDA for coloring the root?




Try to use color, as I can see that it have color difference visually.



By starting symbol do you mean something like this:

(in primer example)
ROM:40147108: xor eax, eax

then the symbol would be ROM:40417108?

Finding symbol is easier when it's something like this as it happens to be the first line:

_doexit:
push 0ch
push offset....
...
..




I mean that search could have two modes: search any substring or only starting symbols of each function name. Sometimes I need any substring, but most time starting symbols is prefereble mode.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-22-2010, 03:29 AM
I see that there is blue color in the primer example but when I generate random GDLs with IDA, all of my graphs are no color backgrounds. Is there some setting I need to turn on in IDA for coloring the root?

All my graphs have this blue border for root node (function I use).
Remember that it is only xrefs graphs ("from" and "to").
May be this GDL description can help you :
http://www.aisee.com/gdl/nutshell/index.html




By starting symbol do you mean something like this:
(in primer example)
ROM:40147108: xor eax, eax
then the symbol would be ROM:40417108?


Here how I see it. Tool must have two modes - find all substrings at any position and find substrings only starting from first symbol (spaces and tabs do not count).
For second mode I mean any separate string inside graph node text.

Primer:
"Vid_Viewfinder_Enable" node can be found by entering "enable" or "vid" in first mode. But only "vid" contonue to work in second mode.

One more thing - it'll will be perfect if you add simple settings dialog to nodes colors override (background, text colors, etc) with ability to specify substring of node name.
For examble, I have many sub_12344 likes and few already reversed and identified functions, so I prefer to have them in other color.

Ben_B
05-22-2010, 11:30 AM
Mjpeg 24p, still skips frames.

Native 24/25, for 1080p. no pull down required. The footage is native 24p with patch. I've uploaded 2 clips demonstrating it.

Wow no pulldown anymore? Brilliant. Playback on camera is still broken?

NURBS
05-22-2010, 11:48 AM
Hello Guys'

Testing audio change:

Audio bufer: 14.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 1280000
Audio sampling rate: 48000

Can't working (camera freezing).

Audio bufer: 14.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 576000
Audio sampling rate: 48000

Can't working (camera show message about card speed)

Audio bufer: 6.000.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 48000

Working well

Audio bufer: 8.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 48000

Working well

Audio bufer: 11.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 48000

Working well

Audio bufer: 14.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 48000

Working well

Regards
NURBS

matt s.
05-22-2010, 12:32 PM
Yes pure 1080 24p. Downloaded Car3o clip and transcoded. worked and looks good! this almost makes me want the GH1 even more now that there isnt a pulldown removal step.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-22-2010, 12:35 PM
Hello Guys'

Testing audio change:

Can't working (camera show message about card speed)


Try to test sampling rate instead.
It seems that AC-3 have limit around standard top rate - 448kbps-640kbps.
But we need to try to change sampling to 96000 and double audio buffer size. Most probably it won't work.
I'll try to change sampling patch again soon in this case.

NURBS
05-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Okey I will testing it.

Interesting fact: Bitrate adjustment 3 (can't be more 20.000.000).

Testing audio again ;-)

NURBS
05-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Testing audio change:

Audio bufer: 14.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 96000

Can't working (camera freezing).

Audio bufer: 8.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 96000

Too can't working (camera freezing).

;-)

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-22-2010, 01:11 PM
Testing audio change:

Audio bufer: 14.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 96000

Can't working (camera freezing).

Audio bufer: 8.500.000
Audio encoding bps: 320000
Audio sampling rate: 96000

Too can't working (camera freezing).

;-)

Thanks for useful testing, results as expected.
I'll add more encoding rates to find barrier precisely.
And modify sampling patch.
Useful could be also to test 44100 and 32000 sampling rates after I'll add them to selection. We need to understand if this is AC-3 encoder problems or PCM audio problem before encoder.

NURBS
05-22-2010, 01:21 PM
Okey Tester13'

I'll be waiting ;)

Regards
NURBS

TurboTwo
05-22-2010, 02:38 PM
Just Wondered if you had the Gh1 yet Tester?

andyjar
05-22-2010, 09:11 PM
Don't know if this helps, but...

-30 min removal
-Native 24p
-Pal>NTSC

-Video Buffer: 25.000.000
-Bitrate 1: 20000000
-Bitrate 2: 21000000

File size : 54.4 MiB
Duration : 27s 930ms
Overall bit rate : 16.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 21.1 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Duration : 27s 986ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.4 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.6 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Original frame rate : 47.952 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.311
Stream size : 51.5 MiB (95%)

Seems to be working fine, aside from no playback due to Native 24p patch.

gemüsesaft
05-23-2010, 03:09 AM
What does "original frame rate" mean ? Why is it always double the actual framerate ?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-23-2010, 06:29 AM
What does "original frame rate" mean ? Why is it always double the actual framerate ?

It is some MediaInfo term. Normally it shows some strange values :-)

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-23-2010, 08:43 AM
PTool 3.28 released.
MJPEG Settings patch added.
AVCHD compression patch added.
Audio sampling rate patch changed.
Audio encoding rate patch adjusted.

Special notes to testers:
1) We need to find possible top bitrate for AC-3 encoding.
2) Sampling rate also must be tested starting from 32.000 up to 192.000.
3) MJPEG Settings requires test not only 1280x720, but other resolutions also.
4) AVCHD compression must be tested in FullHD and SH modes. Check if it reduces birtrate.

Car3o
05-23-2010, 11:00 AM
Just Wondered if you had the Gh1 yet Tester?

He should have it very soon. Maybe today or tomorrow. It's pass customs. We should also have a Gf1 for tester as well.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-23-2010, 11:15 AM
He should have it very soon. Maybe today or tomorrow. It's pass customs. We should also have a Gf1 for tester as well.

Parcel stuck somewhere, as our postage is complete nightmare last year.
I hope to get it next week.

AKED
05-23-2010, 11:31 AM
Parcel stuck somewhere, as our postage is complete nightmare last year.
I hope to get it next week.
Not important

sunboy
05-23-2010, 12:28 PM
-30 min removal
-Native 25p

-Video Buffer: 25.000.000
-Bitrate 1: 20000000
-Bitrate 2: 25000000
-GOP 1080P 25: 6

Recording works well, but for every GOP size lower than 13 video stops for a short moment every few frames.

http://www.materialordner.de/aDvRtQPz1lXBoGh1PrJpz1XBqOeQz3kA.html



Hope it helps,
Björn

Ben_B
05-23-2010, 01:15 PM
Sorry to be one of these people....

Is it theoretically possible to patch to allow for playback of Native 24p in-camera or is this something which would be difficult or impossible.

As great as no-pulldown is, I am of the belief that convenience on set (being able to check a take) outweighs convenience in post (especially when that means just dropping some footage into a droplet and letting it go.)

JerryB
05-23-2010, 01:35 PM
As great as no-pulldown is, I am of the belief that convenience on set (being able to check a take) outweighs convenience in post (especially when that means just dropping some footage into a droplet and letting it go.)

I AGREE that being able to view what you have shot on set is more useful than having to simply remove pull-down in neoscene (this is still a waste of time). Although, I would gladly sacrifice being able to view in camera on set if native 720/24p were able to be accomplished, since having native 24p in camera would be far better than having to convert 60p to 24p. I have yet to figure out how to do this without some sort of issue with image.

Tameside
05-23-2010, 03:14 PM
On set you have laptop's, netbooks or something with wifi, with eye-fi you can monitor wirlessley all over the set what has just been taken, direct from the cam;-)

Car3o
05-23-2010, 03:28 PM
if it's possible to playback in camera, awesome, but it's really not necessary. it was such a breeze to playback on my laptop onset than to have looked at each or every other clip after shooting. it aslo saved me time too. i think it's better to view something on a full 1080p screen for playback vs a little lcd screen.

Ben_B
05-23-2010, 03:38 PM
I AGREE that being able to view what you have shot on set is more useful than having to simply remove pull-down in neoscene (this is still a waste of time). Although, I would gladly sacrifice being able to view in camera on set if native 720/24p were able to be accomplished, since having native 24p in camera would be far better than having to convert 60p to 24p. I have yet to figure out how to do this without some sort of issue with image.

There are methods that do it that seem pretty much perfect. Just dropping it into a 24p timeline looks fine for maybe 80% of footage and for the other 20% I use Compressor. Good sticky on this here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=175852


if it's possible to playback in camera, awesome, but it's really not necessary. it was such a breeze to playback on my laptop onset than to have looked at each or every other clip after shooting. it aslo saved me time too. i think it's better to view something on a full 1080p screen for playback vs a little lcd screen.

I use an HDMI monitor for playback on set. I usually just have my hackintosh netbook in my bag to dump cards on set, to save the space of a real laptop, so it doesn't play back too well. I also check the sound very often, my audio plug is a little messed up so before I shoot I always make sure the mic is coming in properly. Additionally, I like to be able to zoom in on the first frame (you can zoom before you hit play) and check for moiré...and being able to do that without toting a rig around is convenient...can you still do this with the patch?

andyjar
05-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Hi tester. This is just to let you know the whole pulldown thing aint working out super well.
I shot something today with the settings I mentioned above, these are:
-30 min removal
-Native 24p
-Pal>NTSC

-Video Buffer: 25.000.000
-Bitrate 1: 20000000
-Bitrate 2: 21000000

And I'd like to show you what I'm seeing. My NLE (confirmed across Premiere AND After Effects) shows it as 23.976p, as it should. However it shows some subtle interlace lines in the areas with a lot of chroma...


http://imgur.com/mPRAS.jpg


These can be removed at the expense of ghosting by changing it to upper or lower field first...
[/URL]
[URL="http://imgur.com/zwE2L.jpg"]http://imgur.com/zwE2L.jpg (http://imgur.com/mPRAS.jpg)

PappasArts
05-23-2010, 04:54 PM
What's more important; does the image improve since the codec only needs to handle 24 frames and not 60 fields for compression.

Has anyone confirmed this?

This alone would be worth using the patch, if so.


Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

sunsurfh2o
05-23-2010, 05:12 PM
Donated. Just the 24p without doing back flips is HUGE to me, anything else is icing. Thanks for your contribution!


I like to be able to zoom in on the first frame (you can zoom before you hit play) and check for moiré...and being able to do that without toting a rig around is convenient...can you still do this with the patch?

In short, Ben, no. Not only can you not zoom, but if you have ANY 1080p footage on your card when you cycle the camera on you will not be able to preview anything whatsoever--that includes pictures and 720p material. To do so you need to record a quick 720p clip or take a picture to make sure 1st item playing back is not the 1080p footage.

Ben_B
05-23-2010, 05:40 PM
Hi tester. This is just to let you know the whole pulldown thing aint working out super well.
I shot something today with the settings I mentioned above, these are:
-30 min removal
-Native 24p
-Pal>NTSC

-Video Buffer: 25.000.000
-Bitrate 1: 20000000
-Bitrate 2: 21000000

And I'd like to show you what I'm seeing. My NLE (confirmed across Premiere AND After Effects) shows it as 23.976p, as it should. However it shows some subtle interlace lines in the areas with a lot of chroma...


http://imgur.com/mPRAS.jpg


These can be removed at the expense of ghosting by changing it to upper or lower field first...
[/URL]
[URL="http://imgur.com/zwE2L.jpg"]http://imgur.com/zwE2L.jpg (http://imgur.com/mPRAS.jpg)


I don't think that's interlacing, I think that's the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling...in fact...I bet this might be an issue!!!

According to wikipedia, this is what you get when you apply interlaced chroma subsampling to a progressive frame:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/420-interlaced-still.png

Looks pretty similar to your crop eh? I bet this is what's happening in camera. However, I have noticed this on footage with the pulldown removed as well...I think it's an artifact of the way the camera does 4:2:0 which then ends up on progressive footage.

andyjar
05-23-2010, 05:59 PM
I don't think that's interlacing, I think that's the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling...in fact...I bet this might be an issue!!!

According to wikipedia, this is what you get when you apply interlaced chroma subsampling to a progressive frame:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/420-interlaced-still.png

Looks pretty similar to your crop eh? I bet this is what's happening in camera. However, I have noticed this on footage with the pulldown removed as well...I think it's an artifact of the way the camera does 4:2:0 which then ends up on progressive footage.

This may very well be it, however I never noticed it with the regular Panasonic firmware shooting 25p native.

Ben_B
05-23-2010, 06:04 PM
I've actually only noticed it when color keying, I think I frakked things up converting to 422 10-bit. But yeah, it's definetly an issue with interlaced chroma subsampling and progressive frames.

Barry_Green
05-23-2010, 08:02 PM
Also depends on your version of Premiere. CS4 bugs on AVCHD footage and progressive chroma. Try that footage in a different NLE, or upload the clip and let us try it, because I got burned on CS4's buggy AVCHD 4:2:0 "progressive" chroma.

Car3o
05-23-2010, 10:27 PM
CS4 and CS5 will play AVCHD and you can edit it natively, but don't expect it to be without issues. Both NLE's are still ironing out kinks. The 24p stuff I've shot, to me, looks great and plays fine, but there are artifacts from preview that show up all the time, but aren't in the file. Same goes if I were to play it in VLC.

Car3o
05-23-2010, 10:31 PM
There are methods that do it that seem pretty much perfect. Just dropping it into a 24p timeline looks fine for maybe 80% of footage and for the other 20% I use Compressor. Good sticky on this here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=175852



I use an HDMI monitor for playback on set. I usually just have my hackintosh netbook in my bag to dump cards on set, to save the space of a real laptop, so it doesn't play back too well. I also check the sound very often, my audio plug is a little messed up so before I shoot I always make sure the mic is coming in properly. Additionally, I like to be able to zoom in on the first frame (you can zoom before you hit play) and check for moiré...and being able to do that without toting a rig around is convenient...can you still do this with the patch?

Didn't you upload a pic once of 3 macbooks somewhere? A laptop is hardly considered a rig. But to each their own. Maybe tester will find a way to play back native files, but not having to remove pull down is pretty sweet.

Ben_B
05-23-2010, 11:02 PM
Didn't you upload a pic once of 3 macbooks somewhere? A laptop is hardly considered a rig. But to each their own. Maybe tester will find a way to play back native files, but not having to remove pull down is pretty sweet.

I just meant in a run and gun situation that it would be inconvenient to pull out a laptop...and even though I do narrative filmmaking we often do have run and gun situations. The thing is that it's in these situations where I usually will need to check a take because I won't be sure if we got it...in slower situations with a crew to do things, the kind of situation where I could take the time and space and take out a laptop, are usually the situations where I can reliably be sure the shot was fine.

Chibs
05-23-2010, 11:04 PM
Donated. Just the 24p without doing back flips is HUGE to me, anything else is icing. Thanks for your contribution!



In short, Ben, no. Not only can you not zoom, but if you have ANY 1080p footage on your card when you cycle the camera on you will not be able to preview anything whatsoever--that includes pictures and 720p material. To do so you need to record a quick 720p clip or take a picture to make sure 1st item playing back is not the 1080p footage.
You can also zoom out, view thumbnails, zoom in on a picture / 720p, and restart play mode.

Car3o
05-23-2010, 11:10 PM
I just meant in a run and gun situation that it would be inconvenient to pull out a laptop...and even though I do narrative filmmaking we often do have run and gun situations. The thing is that it's in these situations where I usually will need to check a take because I won't be sure if we got it...in slower situations with a crew to do things, the kind of situation where I could take the time and space and take out a laptop, are usually the situations where I can reliably be sure the shot was fine.

yeah, i can see it for run-n-gun.

sunsurfh2o
05-24-2010, 12:57 AM
You can also zoom out, view thumbnails, zoom in on a picture / 720p, and restart play mode.

Please explain "restart play mode". When the last file recorded is 1080p and I try to go into play mode, it freezes. Now if I create another file 720p/picture, I can then enter play mode, zoom out and view thumbnails... but as soon as I select any 1080p file in the group it's 'game over'--instant freeze, and therefore no zooming in. Once it freezes only thing that works (that I'm aware of) is to remove the battery, is there some other way to "restart play mode"?

Nik Manning
05-24-2010, 01:15 AM
What's more important; does the image improve since the codec only needs to handle 24 frames and not 60 fields for compression.

Has anyone confirmed this?

This alone would be worth using the patch, if so.


Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

Can we confirm this?

Ben_B
05-24-2010, 01:18 AM
I see absolutely no reason that it would improve. It's not normally encoding 60 frames it's recording in a 60i stream with pulldown cadence. It's the exact same number of fields per second.

Tameside
05-24-2010, 02:55 AM
Hi tester. This is just to let you know the whole pulldown thing aint working out super well.
I shot something today with the settings I mentioned above, these are:
-30 min removal
-Native 24p
-Pal>NTSC

-Video Buffer: 25.000.000
-Bitrate 1: 20000000
-Bitrate 2: 21000000

And I'd like to show you what I'm seeing. My NLE (confirmed across Premiere AND After Effects) shows it as 23.976p, as it should. However it shows some subtle interlace lines in the areas with a lot of chroma...


http://imgur.com/mPRAS.jpg


These can be removed at the expense of ghosting by changing it to upper or lower field first...

http://imgur.com/zwE2L.jpg (http://imgur.com/zwE2L.jpg)


Viewed at 100%, in the full size jpg there is no over-res artifacts, that insert is blown up 200-300%, happens in all jpgs, once you go beyond 100%, only the very best dslr's can take beyond 200% without such jaggies-artifacts-over sharpen whatever you want to call it, its normal, this looks like a perfect progressive image.!

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 03:22 AM
Guys, please read my notes to testers in last release post.
I need to know how two new patches work to move forward in AVCHD compression and MJPEG compression.

I hope that I'll make good site soon, so we could have special page and forum thread for testers.

As for 24p artifacts, and 25p better quality, it is not encoder problems, I think it is related to sensor scanning. 25p video can have better quality due to this.

philiplipetz
05-24-2010, 05:31 AM
Guys, please read my notes to testers in last release post.
I need to know how two new patches work to move forward in AVCHD compression and MJPEG compression.

I hope that I'll make good site soon, so we could have special page and forum thread for testers.

As for 24p artifacts, and 25p better quality, it is not encoder problems, I think it is related to sensor scanning. 25p video can have better quality due to this.

When you post your website please give a complete summary of the current state of mods so that new testers can easily join. Please make it self contained. Also please post significant advances here.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 05:49 AM
When you post your website please give a complete summary of the current state of mods so that new testers can easily join. Please make it self contained. Also please post significant advances here.

I can not promize anything, as site requires very big amount of time, and so it'll be postponed until I'll find this time.
As for testers, in fact if you want to become tester just read my notes.
I don't want many testers, few smart and useful ones are enough.

One more note to testers

We don't need Bitrate Adjustment and Video Buffer tests.
Please read last notes about test we are interested at.

Tameside
05-24-2010, 08:27 AM
Note, just did the fw mod and even though I havent gone for the progressive native output but I have adjusted the bitrates I can no longer view the output in-camera! is this correct?

Barry_Green
05-24-2010, 08:34 AM
I see absolutely no reason that it would improve. It's not normally encoding 60 frames it's recording in a 60i stream with pulldown cadence. It's the exact same number of fields per second.
But there are several good reasons why native 24p would cause the quality to substantially improve... man, I gotta make time to dig into this...

abasfly
05-24-2010, 08:46 AM
Just put a little bit on the piggie, when is the G1 going to be purchased and how much do we need for the GF1?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 08:53 AM
Just put a little bit on the piggie, when is the G1 going to be purchased and how much do we need for the GF1?

It is up to Car3o to make is happen.
We could have purchased G1 long time ago, but seller was on vacation, now he is back, but I no longer see his listing.

Tameside
05-24-2010, 10:21 AM
Looks very stable, audio bit rate 320k, all OK, but now cant view any videos in camera.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Looks very stable, audio bit rate 320k, all OK, but now cant view any videos in camera.

Just remove GOP patch, as it is almost pointless.
And please, specify that you mean under "cant view any videos in camera".

JackBayer
05-24-2010, 10:38 AM
Hello everyone,

first of all I´d like to say GREAT JOB to tester13 and to you testing testers! Even the removal of 30 minute limiting alone is a huge improvement on the usability of this camera.

I have an idea I´d like to share concerning the rolling shutter issue "jello".
As it is only a limitation for vertical lines in fast pans or fast horizontal movement I recently thought, how cool would it be, if you could flip the camera 90° and get the firmware to flip the readout of the chip by 90° too. That way one could pan with that flipped camera as fast as you´d like just how one can tilt up and down right now.

I don´t know if that´s anywhere near possible but I wanted to share the idea with you.

Regards!

Tameside
05-24-2010, 10:41 AM
Now I have ticked the new 720p/50 and higher bit rates but didnt opt for 25p, I now cant view the videos on the camera lcd via review button. Audio is 48k320bps,

Videos look good;-) no mud that I can see in 720p but 1080p is still mud, will try progressive option later for 1080p. If modifying bit rates means I cant view the video anyway I may as well implement 1080p as well.

Barry_Green
05-24-2010, 10:45 AM
That way one could pan with that flipped camera as fast as you´d like just how one can tilt up and down right now.
Not sure you're understanding rolling shutter entirely; you can't freely tilt up and down on a rolling shutter camera without consequences. The image gets stretchy or squishy if you tilt up and down. It leans side-to-side, but gets stretchy/squishy on tilt up/down. So if you read out the sensor sideways, you'd have the opposite effect: you'd get squishy/stretchy footage on pans, and leaning footage on tilts.

slyn4ice
05-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Tameside, I think what Tester13 means is what exactly happens when the camera fails to play the vid - does it freeze, does it just ignore the files, that sort of thing. Every bit helps.

Thanks for taking the time to help with the testing. Could you post some reference videos with the original firmware and the changed settings? It would be nice to find a place to post experimental videos along with the settings of the patched firmware... youtube, vimeo ... just a thought.

Tameside
05-24-2010, 11:00 AM
When I open the ptool for next mod, do I open the original 1.32 from Pana or my new 1.33 and what do I put in version increment 1 again or 2 etc?

Thanks

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 11:11 AM
When I open the ptool for next mod, do I open the original 1.32 from Pana or my new 1.33 and what do I put in version increment 1 again or 2 etc?


Give yourself some time to try and read before posting.
Question about increment is answered in hint.
And tool won't allow you to open wrong firmware.

tyampel
05-24-2010, 11:18 AM
Always work with the original files. Keep incrementing the number to get a higher version for the camera to accept it.

You last post was not clear. You say "I now cant view...".
Which is it - can (yes) or cannot (no)?
Thanks for testing and good luck.

Car3o
05-24-2010, 11:20 AM
talked t g1 seller this morn, he has them relisted,going to purchase today. secondly, talked to solomon, waiting for his reply. all is well in the purchasing world.

and for the record those who are using the 24/25p patch

***YOU CANNOT PLAYBACK VIDEOS IN CAMERA IT FREEZES, YOU NEED TO DO A BATTERY PULL IF IT FREEZES***

JackBayer
05-24-2010, 11:30 AM
Not sure you're understanding rolling shutter entirely; you can't freely tilt up and down on a rolling shutter camera without consequences. The image gets stretchy or squishy if you tilt up and down. It leans side-to-side, but gets stretchy/squishy on tilt up/down. So if you read out the sensor sideways, you'd have the opposite effect: you'd get squishy/stretchy footage on pans, and leaning footage on tilts.

damn, didn´t realize that. but of course it makes sense, I just never encountered it so far as I obviously don´t tilt up and down often enough :)

Would you say that there is more tolerance to the viewers eye with the stretchy/squishy footage than with the leaning? I yes, it would be still a bit of an improvement to be able to flip the cam.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 11:30 AM
talked t g1 seller this morn, he has them relisted,going to purchase today. secondly, talked to solomon, waiting for his reply. all is well in the purchasing world.

Perfect, thanks very much for your efforts!


***YOU CANNOT PLAYBACK VIDEOS IN CAMERA IT FREEZES, YOU NEED TO DO A BATTERY PULL IF IT FREEZES***

:-) We'll try to prevent this in the future.
I am thinking to prevent 1080p viewing if this patch is used.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 11:41 AM
Important thing

We really need Panasonic Cross-Assembler and C Compiler (evaluation versions are ok).
I found only DebugFactory Builder at http://www.object.co.jp/panamc/panamc_eng/download/am3stk-soft.html
But it is just IDE, it can not compile anything.
Each AM3 based Panasonic controller board have CD with serial number, I just need this serial number.

If we could make patches to be activated by simple file on SD card, it could speed up whole process very much.
We do not know all necessary functions good enough yet (I know how to open file to read, read part of this file, and may be close it, but not all parameters and not all details).

Barry_Green
05-24-2010, 12:29 PM
Would you say that there is more tolerance to the viewers eye with the stretchy/squishy footage than with the leaning?
Well, it's exactly the same amount of distortion, because it's caused by the same process. You don't really notice it because nobody ever tilts nearly as quickly as they pan! But if you rotated the camera and tried panning, you'll see that the squishing is pretty severe. Would it be less noticeable than the angling? Maybe. But in terms of amount of image distortion, technically it would be the same, so ... I don't think there's a real answer here.

e-steve
05-24-2010, 12:53 PM
Perhaps we should raise some funds to get Barry an extra GH1 just for testing... that might accelerate the learning process because of his extensive knowledge of how all this works?

Just a thought... :)

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 01:05 PM
Perhaps we should raise some funds to get Barry an extra GH1 just for testing... that might accelerate the learning process because of his extensive knowledge of how all this works?


Barry have one GH1 and wanted to test some things we made.
I do not believe that he have time to become tester of risky patches (and you do not need second GH1 to test any current patches anyway, as we do not have any risky ones).

P.S. But I still hope to convince Barry to get NEX5 for testing. Dissecting Sony small beast can be fun.

sunsurfh2o
05-24-2010, 01:29 PM
:-) We'll try to prevent this in the future.
I am thinking to prevent 1080p viewing if this patch is used.

Yes, yes! Please do. It would be an immense help for those of us who shoot run and gun style with mixed footage (1080p and 720p for slo mo). Having at least the capability of previewing photos and 720p would be a good compromise.

NURBS
05-24-2010, 01:33 PM
Hello Guys ;-)

I'm did new ptool test.

MJPEG Setting: Setting 4

Working well

Duration : 10s
Overall bit rate : 11.9 Mbps

MJPEG Setting: Setting 3

Working well

Duration : 10s
Overall bit rate : 9 562 Kbps

MJPEG Setting: Setting 2

Working well

Duration : 10s
Overall bit rate : 8 457 Kbps

MJPEG Setting: Setting 1

Working well

Duration : 10s
Overall bit rate : 4 667 Kbps

and camera show 1h. rec duration possible ;-)

File will be soon

Link: http://rapidshare.com/files/391166566/Test_new_MJPEG.rar

Regards
NURBS

NURBS
05-24-2010, 02:02 PM
New test for audio settings:

Audio encoding bps: 384.000 bps

Working well

Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

Audio encoding bps: 448.000 bps

Working well

Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

Audio encoding bps: 512.000 bps

Can't write the file, camera freezing and show message about card speed.

Next test will be soon :-)

NURBS

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 02:04 PM
Hello Guys ;-)

I'm did new ptool test.



Thanks for tests. It looks now we know some details about MJPEG compression settings. New patches will follow.

New AVCHD patch must be also used as it is quite similar to MJPEG one and could be very helpful.

P.S. Your tests become very systematic and accurate. Keep it up!

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 02:07 PM
New test for audio settings:

Audio encoding bps: 512.000 bps

Can't write the file, camera freezing and show message about card speed.



As expected, AC-3 encoder stops right after 448.000 standard boundary.
I'll remove all high encoding rates in next version.
448kbps is more than enough for stereo.
I doubt that someone can tell the difference between this and PCM.

NURBS
05-24-2010, 02:28 PM
New test for audio settings:

Audio sampling rate: 32000 Khz

Working well.

Bit rate : 192 Kbps - (interesting digits because i set 448 Kbps)
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz

New test for audio settings:

Audio sampling rate: 44000 Khz

Working well.

Bit rate : 192 Kbps - (interesting digits because i set 448 Kbps)
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.0 KHz

Audio sampling rate: 48000 Khz

Working well.

Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

Audio sampling rate: 96000 Khz

Can't write the file, camera freezing and show message about card speed.

NURBS
05-24-2010, 02:38 PM
4) AVCHD compression must be tested in FullHD and SH modes. Check if it reduces birtrate.

Was looking it:

Result: AVCHD compression - Turn on

FHD:
Bit rate : 11.3 Mbps
SHD:
Bit rate : 8 907 Kbps

Result: AVCHD compression - Turn off

FHD:
Bit rate : 13.4 Mbps
SHD:
Bit rate : 9 013 Kbps

Regards
NURBS

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 02:43 PM
New test for audio settings:

Audio sampling rate: 32000 Khz

Working well.

Bit rate : 192 Kbps - (interesting digits because i set 448 Kbps)
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz

New test for audio settings:

Audio sampling rate: 44000 Khz

Working well.

Bit rate : 192 Kbps - (interesting digits because i set 448 Kbps)
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.0 KHz


Good, also as expected.
So, sampling rate setting working.
As for 192kbps - do not worry, as we don't need this sampling rates actually.
It must be caused by some check.

One more thing (besides AVCHD patch :-) ), your forgot to test small resolution MJPEG movie modes.
May be someone could help us here.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 02:49 PM
4) AVCHD compression must be tested in FullHD and SH modes. Check if it reduces birtrate.



Thanks. Looks like some reduction, but not much.
Try to shoot more detailed scene, may be introduce some moving.
I want top possible bitrate.
If that do not help, I'll change patch to make difference more visible.

John Caballero
05-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Hello Guys ;-)

I'm did new ptool test.

MJPEG Setting: Setting 4

Working well

Duration : 10s
Overall bit rate : 11.9 Mbps

No dropped frames?

NURBS
05-24-2010, 03:12 PM
PCM bitrate - 1536kbps.
New GH1 AC3 - 448kbps
It's very nice for this device. ;)

Audio compression is not very important for this device ;-) because we can record audio on the portable audio recorder and have a superior audio track. Portable audio recorder have lot of manual control settings and the best choice for professional use.

NURBS
05-24-2010, 03:15 PM
No dropped frames?


I can't test dropp frame. But I think situation it's the same.

John Caballero
05-24-2010, 03:35 PM
I can't test dropp frame. But I think situation it's the same.

Thanks.

NURBS
05-24-2010, 04:17 PM
Test small resolution MJPEG movie modes.

It modes don't change. (still 30fps and bitrate). ;-)

Regards
NURBS

Lpowell
05-24-2010, 06:14 PM
As expected, AC-3 encoder stops right after 448.000 standard boundary.
I'll remove all high encoding rates in next version.
448kbps is more than enough for stereo.
I doubt that someone can tell the difference between this and PCM.

Dolby's Professional Encoding Manual recommends 192kb/sec as the default bitrate for encoding stereo AC-3 streams. 448kb/sec is the bitrate recommended for 5.1 channel multitrack AC-3 streams (the GH1 is limited to stereo).

48khz audio sampling rate is standard for DVD video content. All licensed Dolby Digital decoders should be capable of decoding 44.1khz and 32khz streams, but DVD and DTV systems may enforce the 48khz standard. If you reduce the sampling rate, you may be able to proportionally reduce the AC-3 bitrate as well, i.e. 128kb/sec @ 32khz should produce comparable quality to 192kb/sec @ 48khz (but with reduced audio bandwidth, of course).

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 10:12 PM
Dolby's Professional Encoding Manual recommends 192kb/sec as the default bitrate for encoding stereo AC-3 streams. 448kb/sec is the bitrate recommended for 5.1 channel multitrack AC-3 streams.
48khz audio sampling rate is standard for DVD video content.

This is widely known information.
Anyway, some people use good external microphone with GH1 and do not have dedicated recorder like Zoom, for them it is useful to have 448kbps bitrate option.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-24-2010, 10:14 PM
Test small resolution MJPEG movie modes.
It modes don't change. (still 30fps and bitrate). ;-)


We need to test all small modes with all options very carefully.
FPS won't change, just bitrate and some other minor things.
You need to shoot really highly detailed scenes, otherwise it is much harder to spot bitrate difference in low resoluton.

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 12:58 AM
Anyway, some people use good external microphone with GH1 and do not have dedicated recorder like Zoom, for them it is useful to have 448kbps bitrate option.

Or even for people that use 2 mics with the GH1. For example, I have used my Rode Stereo VideoMic plugged directly into the GH1 and a Sennheiser ME64 cardioid mic plugged into a Zoom H2. Now I have 2 different types of mics to choose high quality audio from.

Another example would be if you were using an audio mixer that has 2 outputs where you would send 1 to the GH1 and the other to the Zoom recorder. With the new 448kbps setting, you would now have an already synced high quality audio backup if your Zoom recorder had a problem or if you didn't want to take the time to sync the Zoom audio in post.

Increasing the audio recording quality of the GH1 from 192 to 448kbps is great and I will definitely be using it every time I shoot.

Randy

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 04:46 AM
PTool 3.29 Released
MJPEG Settings patches added.
AVCHD compression patch changed.
Audio sampling rate patch changed.
Audio encoding rate patch adjusted.



Notes to testers

1) MJPEG Settings patches testing methodology:
a) Do not use MJPEG 30->24fps patch!
b) Check all four patches, record test footage at 1280p30 using high detail scene.
c) Record same footage without any patches.
d) If bitrate dropped compared to unpatched state, check only first two patches and check again, etc.

2) AVCHD Compression patches.
a) Check this patch.
b) Shot high detailed scenes using 1080p and 720 SH mode.
c) Shoot same scene using 720H and 720L modes.
d) Compress all files, upload and provide link (and MediaInfo data, of course).

3) Check 32.000 and 44.000 audio sampling rate with 448.000 kbps encoder setting.

nubins
05-25-2010, 09:25 AM
I just received my GH1 last night and updated it with the Panasonic version of the 1.32 firmware.

I tried to update the Panasonic 1.32 firmware this morning with the modified firmware and followed the instructions for uploading from Panasonic but can not get the modified firmware to be recognized to even load it.

Here are Panasonic instructions that I followed.

http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/dsc/download/fts/step_bg.html

The page says that if the firmware on the card was the same version as the firmware installed then the installation menu would not show. I have named the modified firmware GH1__133.bin. Is there something wrong with the name?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 09:48 AM
The page says that if the firmware on the card was the same version as the firmware installed then the installation menu would not show. I have named the modified firmware GH1__133.bin. Is there something wrong with the name?

First, make sure you have fully charged battery.
Second, check the name again, as I see two underscores instead of three.
Copy file name from first page of this thread.
All this questions had been answered already in this thread, next time try to use search function.

Tameside
05-25-2010, 09:49 AM
mandatory? first time is 1, second time with 1.34bin is 2 etc, your naming convention looks OK but make sure spaces are same as Pana, you can solve this by save as and pick the original file and then alter the number?

nubins
05-25-2010, 10:26 AM
Thanks Tameside. I did not realize the Version number had to be incremented. That worked.

Rayzrsharp
05-25-2010, 11:29 AM
Just wanted to chime in a big THANKS to Tester13 and all those testing for TESTER13. This is great AND inspiring! Keep up the good work guys!

Peace!

Doffer
05-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Hello, I took some time to check the remaining languages which are currently listed as unknown and I propose the following changes:

Deutsch --> German
Francais --> French (1)
Unknown 9 --> Thai
Unknown 11 --> Portuguese (1)
Unknown 12 --> Classical Arabic
Unknown 13 --> Modern Arabic
Unknown 14 --> French (2)
Unknown 15 --> Finnish
Unknown 16 --> Danish
Swenden --> Swedish
Portugal --> Portuguese (2)

Portuguese 1 seem to be Brazilian portuguese while portuguese 2 seem to be european portuguese but I cant say for sure right now, the same goes for the two french languages. Perhaps I will give it a try some other time or someone else who speak these languages could lend a hand.

Other than that I just want to say good work and thank you to those involved in this project (especially tester13)

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Hello, I took some time to check the remaining languages which are currently listed as unknown and I propose the following changes:



Thanks for results!

PTool is already updated using your data.

Lpowell
05-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Increasing the audio recording quality of the GH1 from 192 to 448kbps is great and I will definitely be using it every time I shoot.
Sure, it's your bandwidth, do what you like with it. I'm just footnoting what bitrates Dolby Labs recommends: 192kbps for stereo (e.g. GH1) and 448kbps for 5.1 channel surround sound.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 12:18 PM
I'm just footnoting what bitrates Dolby Labs recommends: 192kbps for stereo (e.g. GH1) and 448kbps for 5.1 channel surround sound.

It'll be better to provide here actual technical details why they recommend such bitrate for stereo.
If you are recording music or will be processing your soundtrack I do not recommend to use 192kbps.
But it can be fine is sound is not very hard and complex and no processing will be made.
Actually Dolby Labs recommends to use 192kbps for final master encoding using very high quality encoders. We do not have such situation.

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 12:36 PM
That Dolby Labs recommendation is for a final product like a DVD after a video has been edited not for the original video/audio file that the GH1 records.

Randy

Lpowell
05-25-2010, 01:08 PM
If you are recording music or will be processing your soundtrack I do not recommend to use 192kbps... Actually Dolby Labs recommends to use 192kbps for final master encoding using very high quality encoders. We do not have such situation.
Dolby's bitrate recommendations are based on two decades of extensive listening tests and the collective experience of Dolby Surround Consultants who have assisted in the mastering of thousands of commercial DVD's. But of course you're free to recommend whatever bitrate personally sounds best to you.

On a technical level, the differences between the professional tools used to encode DVD's and the consumer Dolby Digital stereo encoder in the GH1 are in the limitations of its preset encoding options rather than any significant reduction in compression quality. Stereo encoding utilizes a small subset of the encoding options Dolby provides for optimizing 5.1-channel surround sound mixes, which inherently require far more bandwidth than two-channel stereo.

Note also that the GH1 uses the venerable Dolby Digital Encoder (AC-3) rather than the contemporary Dolby Digital Plus Encoder (E-AC-3). While DD+ encoders can produce better quality streams with reduced bitrates, they require more time and processing resources to do their work than the previous generation of DD encoders. The Dolby Digital encoder used in the GH1 uses well-tested and highly efficient technology with a long and successful track record to produce reliable high-quality results.

Full disclosure: I'm currently employed as an engineer at Dolby Laboratories.

Barry_Green
05-25-2010, 01:21 PM
Thanks lpowell, for taking the time to explain it, and for taking the time to be a member here.

[going offtopic for a moment]
And in our ongoing crackdown on some instances of rude behavior on DVXUser, can I just use lpowell as an example -- you never know who you're speaking to on this forum. We have everybody, major players to absolute newbies. We have engineers who work at Dolby labs, we have art directors for major Hollywood films, we have the president of Sony Animation, and we have people who can dissect the firmware of a hybrid digital/still camera and add new features and even fix issues for us. Thanks to all those who bring so much to the forum -- and let's keep all our great contributors here, by being polite and courteous and respectful in all our communications.
[/end offtopic]

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 01:33 PM
Barry, got a question since you've read what the Dolby guy has said. If you had a choice to pick 192, 256, 384 or 448kbps to record audio into the GH1 which would you choose?

From what I gather about the push to keep it at 192kbps is that there will be no increase in the quality of the audio in any way at higher bit rates.

Randy

Barry_Green
05-25-2010, 01:36 PM
I'd go with 192. If it's good enough for the Dolby engineer, it's probably good enough for me. But frankly, it's largely a moot point because I wouldn't want to be recording directly into the camera anyway; I'd much rather be using an external uncompressed multitrack recorder with direct XLR input. On the GH1 I haven't used the onboard recording for anything other than a scratch track.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 01:42 PM
Full disclosure: I'm currently employed as an engineer at Dolby Laboratories.

It is great pleasure to meet Dolby engeeneer :-)

Do you have any ideas why encoder stops working after 448kbps??
Do you have working 96Khz AC-3 encoder?

P.S. In fact I am more audio geek than photo-video geek. As even my "computer" loudspeakers (pair of Energy RC-LCR) are very good.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 01:52 PM
I'd go with 192. If it's good enough for the Dolby engineer, it's probably good enough for me.

I believe he said that their encoding is very good and if you do not record very complex sound and do not indent to process sound it'll be fine.


But frankly, it's largely a moot point because I wouldn't want to be recording directly into the camera anyway; I'd much rather be using an external uncompressed multitrack recorder with direct XLR input. On the GH1 I haven't used the onboard recording for anything other than a scratch track.

In reality recorders mostly also use cheap ADCs and op-amps.
Looking at Canon firmware issues you can see camera sound problems - they have digital amplification and analog amplification in CODEC chip.
As conversion is generally done in 24bit, they have some space to do digital amplification. Plus build in analog amplifier is not very good, of course.
So, turning analog gain to low values and keeping digital at zero you can get very good results. Comparable to Zoom recorders.
Btw, most good recorders use Panasonic electred capsules. I did audio measuring and comparison of various cheap capsules few years ago and Panasonic is clearly the best (WM-61 is famous).

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 02:01 PM
I'd go with 192. If it's good enough for the Dolby engineer, it's probably good enough for me. But frankly, it's largely a moot point because I wouldn't want to be recording directly into the camera anyway; I'd much rather be using an external uncompressed multitrack recorder with direct XLR input. On the GH1 I haven't used the onboard recording for anything other than a scratch track.

Well, I was asking from the point of view of using the GH1 audio as your only choice or if you wanted a high-quality backup of the external audio recorder.

Tester13, is there an easy quality test that can be done to compare 192 and 448kbps audio from the GH1 to see if there is any differences like if the 448 version would have more dynamic range or be less prone to distort? I guess looking at the actual waveforms might show something.

Randy

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 02:05 PM
Tester13, is there an easy quality test that can be done to compare 192 and 448kbps audio from the GH1 to see if there is any differences like if the 448 version would have more dynamic range or be less prone to distort? I guess looking at the actual waveforms might show something.


This question is better to be answered by Dolby Engeeneer.
From that I know dynamic range and distortion (if you mean only clipping and high non-liniar distortion) will be the same.

Barry_Green
05-25-2010, 02:18 PM
Well, I was asking from the point of view of using the GH1 audio as your only choice or if you wanted a high-quality backup of the external audio recorder.
I wouldn't want to shoot with the onboard audio as my only choice though. When we did Depth of Phil and Shady, Texas, we actually tried multiple ways -- we had a Zoom H4N, and simultaneously we had a Beachtek going straight into the GH1. I preferred the Zoom.

I hate sync'ing in post, and having to have double-system (which is one reason why I prefer the form factor and convenience of a traditional camcorder much more than the current dslr system). But I also think sound is extraordinarily important, and I would do whatever it took to get great quality audio. And no combination of bits and pieces recording down to a 1/8" minijack in a consumer still camera is going to produce great audio.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 02:26 PM
And no combination of bits and pieces recording down to a 1/8" minijack in a consumer still camera is going to produce great audio.

Why do you think quality audio is not possible in such case?
I know that are a pro in this, so it will be very interesting to get your opinion.

From pure electrical side, if you have short cord from active microphone to even 1/8" mini-jack quality must be the same as balanced XLR (of course, XLR have lock and less ability to cause noise if touched).

stoneinapond
05-25-2010, 02:27 PM
...but i also think sound is extraordinarily important, and i would do whatever it took to get great quality audio...

+1!!!

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 03:09 PM
I wouldn't want to shoot with the onboard audio as my only choice though. When we did Depth of Phil and Shady, Texas, we actually tried multiple ways -- we had a Zoom H4N, and simultaneously we had a Beachtek going straight into the GH1. I preferred the Zoom.

I have a BeachTek also and have never been happy with the quality of audio from that adapter so I still don't think that is a fair comparison between the Zoom and the GH1 since the BeachTek is the weak link.

All I can think of as far as not wanting to record audio with a higher bitrate on the GH1 is if the audio hardware/encoder in the GH1 is capped at 192kbps quality so even if you raised it to 448 you would end up with exactly the same audio quality and waveform, it would be exactly the same file except a larger file size. Is that the case here?

Randy

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 03:17 PM
All I can think of as far as not wanting to record audio with a higher bitrate on the GH1 is if the audio hardware/encoder in the GH1 is capped at 192kbps quality so even if you raised it to 448 you would end up with exactly the same audio quality and waveform, it would be exactly the same file except a larger file size. Is that the case here?Randy

No, AC-3 is lossy audio compression, so this is quite advanched mathematical algorithm. At lower bitrates it removes more information parts, it uses some math and psychoacoustic models (derived from the listening tests) to do this. Like removing some info after very loud spike because human can not hearing any difference during short period after this (I oversimplificate here).

Lpowell
05-25-2010, 03:22 PM
Do you have any ideas why encoder stops working after 448kbps?? Do you have working 96Khz AC-3 encoder?
All licensed Dolby codecs are required to pass formalized tests up to the limits of their certified specifications, and are also required to generate specified error codes when presented with invalid data. Consumer stereo AC-3 encoders are limited to 448kbps bitrate and will correctly reject anything higher than that. The minimum supported bitrate for AC-3 stereo encoding is 96kbps, and I believe this applies to consumer DD consumer encoders as well as professional encoders.

In practice, commercial DVD AC-3 tracks are limited to 448kbps max, though all Dolby AC-3 decoders are required to accept bitstreams up to 640kbps. A 640kbps bitrate may be generated by Dolby Digital Plus codecs that can dynamically transcode E-AC-3 streams into AC-3 for transparent playback on devices that only support Dolby Digital streams. There is no quality improvement (or loss) in that case, the increased bitrate only allows the transcoder to do its work with minimum latency.

Dolby Digital AC-3 encoders are restricted to 32khz, 44.1khz, and 48khz audio sample rates. You'd need a Dolby Digital Plus E-AC-3 encoder to support a 96khz sample rate.


...is there an easy quality test that can be done to compare 192 and 448kbps audio from the GH1 to see if there is any differences like if the 448 version would have more dynamic range or be less prone to distort?Unlike fixed-range PCM encoding, Dolby Digital encoding uses algorithms that preserve the full, undistorted dynamic range of the audio source. The real-time dynamic range of the encoded audio is preserved as metadata embedded in the bitstream, which is continuously decoded by the Dolby codec and passed along to the audio player.

The dynamic range of decoded Dolby streams can thus be adjusted during playback or when transcoded into another format. High-end audio receivers typically provide user options for reducing dynamic range and leveling dialog levels of DVD audio playback (for example, for quiet nighttime viewing). Inexpensive music players or file converters, however, may preset these playback options at settings that compromise the dynamic range of the audio. If you're concerned to maintain the highest quality GH1 AVCHD audio, make sure the encoded dynamic range is correctly handled by your editing software.

In practice, the GH1's audio dynamic range is most compromised by what sounds like an analog headroom limiter on its microphone inputs. The only way to prevent this type of distortion is to reduce input levels below the threshold of the limiter, which would require trial-and-error testing to determine. The other major limitation is the lack of XLR inputs with regulated phantom power, a requirement for using high quality condensor mics. Given these restrictions, the Rode Video Mic would be my choice for on-camera audio recording.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-25-2010, 03:38 PM
lpowell

I like the level of discussion :-)
Thanks for useful info.

I also believe that we could have even three stages of quality degradation in GH1 : analog amplifier setting -> digital amplification inside CODEC -> software limiter that changes previous settings according to processed samples.

I have one interesting question.
Someone know how exactly AGC+SET option works in Panasonic camcorders (at low level)?
From my expirience it can be best option, so you have gain control, but setting allow it to kick in only in really loud, abnormal situation to prevent clipping.

P.S. We have Dolby techie, it is time for Panasonic engineers to appear in public. :2vrolijk_08:
P.P.S. We really need your help with AGC and video output. :violin:

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 03:55 PM
In practice, the GH1's audio dynamic range is most compromised by what sounds like an analog headroom limiter on its microphone inputs. The only way to prevent this type of distortion is to reduce input levels below the threshold of the limiter, which would require trial-and-error testing to determine. The other major limitation is the lack of XLR inputs with regulated phantom power, a requirement for using high quality condensor mics. Given these restrictions, the Rode Video Mic would be my choice for on-camera audio recording.

I already did my own "limiter" tests using various XLR mics and mixers (phantom powered) directly into the GH1. All I needed was a short 1' XLR to Stereo 3.5mm mini cable and a 3.5 to 2.5mm adapter.

I also used a 4" barrel plug XLR adjustable attenuator, connected to the mic or mixer output (at mic level not line level) to reduce the overall audio level into the GH1 to where the limiter was not altering the audio quality. I had to attenuate the audio input level to the GH1 by 25 to 40dB and the audio was significantly better sounding after that.

Here is a link to that thread where I discussed my results:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=208746

Randy

Lpowell
05-25-2010, 04:38 PM
From pure electrical side, if you have short cord from active microphone to even 1/8" mini-jack quality must be the same as balanced XLR.
A short, unbalanced high-impedance audio cable can work flawlessly if you are running your equipment entirely on battery power. But if there are any AC power line fields near the camera, it may pick up noise that a balanced low-impedance cable would reject. In particular, if you're shooting anywhere near AC-powered fluorescent lights or dimmers, I'd use XLR cables on the mics, and drive the GH1 audio input with a low-impedance active pre-amp (e.g. a Zoom H4N used as a mic pre-amp).

tyampel
05-25-2010, 04:56 PM
Hello, I took some time to check the remaining languages which are currently listed as unknown and I propose the following changes:

Deutsch --> German
Francais --> French (1)
Unknown 9 --> Thai
Unknown 11 --> Portuguese (1)
Unknown 12 --> Classical Arabic
Unknown 13 --> Modern Arabic
Unknown 14 --> French (2)
Unknown 15 --> Finnish
Unknown 16 --> Danish
Swenden --> Swedish
Portugal --> Portuguese (2)

Portuguese 1 seem to be Brazilian portuguese while portuguese 2 seem to be european portuguese but I cant say for sure right now, the same goes for the two french languages. Perhaps I will give it a try some other time or someone else who speak these languages could lend a hand.

Other than that I just want to say good work and thank you to those involved in this project (especially tester13)

Someone reported that 15 is Dutch - Netherlands/Holland

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 06:38 PM
Ok, I'm still a little confused about this 192kbps AC3 standard/limit on the GH1.

Why is it that the Canon HF200, and I'm sure other AVCHD consumer camcorders, record audio at 256kbps 48kHz stereo AC-3 and not 192kbps?

Here is some good related info also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital

and a screen grab of some specs below

Randy

Cavemandude
05-25-2010, 07:25 PM
So they had this 3 (?) camera Canon 5D interview with Cinematographer Shane Hurlbut, Bandito Brother's Jacob Rosenberg, and Hesh Rephun and guess what happened to their audio using what looks like a Zoom H4n? Unusable, they had to use the audio from the camera which they luckily were using shotguns on. Here is what they said happened:

"There’s an audio recorder on a small stand just behind the A camera. Unfortunately it was acting up that day. We ended up using the backup audio from the 5D MKII DSLRs equipped with shotgun mics (with manual audio levels set)."

Imagine if they had not used those shotgun mics directly into the 5D's because they were so confident about how their Zoom recorder was going to capture such awesome audio? Uh sorry Shane we got no audio, can we shoot the interview over again, take 2 ok?

This is exactly why I want to use best possible audio quality in the GH1 and if a higher bitrate is going to provide that then there is no reason not to use it. Scratch audio? I say use backup audio instead on the GH1 just in case things like this happen.

Here is a link to the interview and the audio ain't that great since the shotguns were too far away but I guess it was better than what was on the Zoom recorder and much better than the audio would have been with the built-in mic:

http://www.freshdv.com/2010/05/conversations-bandito-hurlbut.html

Randy

Ozpeter
05-25-2010, 08:44 PM
There is no field of human endeavor more fraught with the problems of objective assessment than audio! For instance, see http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf where a long term series of tests demonstrated that no individual (in these large-scale tests) could reliably spot the difference between the much vaunted 24/96 audio and normal CD audio, despite the internet being full of people who claim they can. Increasing the bitrate of the GH1 audio is highly unlikely to be evident (and I choose that word carefully) to listeners other than under the most stringent testing conditions, if that. I'd hope that viewers of my material were more interested in the picture and story than in probably unspottable tweaks to audio quality.

But of course if it can be done without slowing up other aspects of the project, there's no harm in individual options and personal choice!

androoow
05-26-2010, 06:03 AM
what Ozpeter said +1,........
....although i can tell the difference between say 16/44.1 and 24/96 only certain times the difference stands out ... really to 99% of the world the lower 16/44.1 just works and is why cd's can sound fantastic still after 25 years. I have more interest in the visual aspects being fixed/ improved as these are things that you cant fix/increase beyond the cam , where as there exists plenty of ways to add better audio to a project already, not saying its not important, but to me i come here to see what breakthroughs are happening with the image.

good work to all still..

aczelkri
05-26-2010, 06:24 AM
I, too, have the opinion that the audio part of the AVCHD is not a very important issue. It is pretty good as it is. Just because there is a way of increasing bitrate/sampling rate does not mean that it also makes sense. It is like repainting your car while in fact your engine is broken.

I can't think of any geeks who want to record 96kHz 448kbps studio quality AC3 audio coupled with the muddy picture we currently have. The AVCHD image is what needs fixing. Am I wrong here?

P.S. I am talking about the AVCHD audio here. The MJPEG audio on the other hand does indeed need improvement, as that is audibly worse than the former.

nubins
05-26-2010, 07:25 AM
How does the AVCHD Compression patch optimize the settings? Does it change the GOP structure, like adding B frames? What does it optimize?

I just started testing and so far here are the parameters that seem to be working well in 1080 24 (FHD mode).

Video Buffer: 28.000.000
Bitrate Adjustment 1: 20000000
Bitrate Adjustment 1: 24000000
AVCHD Compression
1080p24 GOP Size: 12

Note: As another poster said anything over 20000000 for BA1 and 24000000 for BA2 and the camera locks up as soon as you start recording.

Cavemandude
05-26-2010, 07:56 AM
I can't think of any geeks who want to record 96kHz 448kbps studio quality AC3 audio coupled with the muddy picture we currently have. The AVCHD image is what needs fixing. Am I wrong here?

I've never mentioned the desire for 96kHz audio for the GH1, I have no problem with the 48kHz that the GH1 already records at.

So if you just spent a bunch of money on a great voice-over to use in your 30 minute documentary and they only gave you the choice of having it downloaded as a 64, 96, 128, 192 or 320kbps mono audio file, which one would you choose to download and drop into your timeline to edit with? Are you going to just set your Zoom recorder at 192kbps instead of a less compressed setting since most people wouldn't be able to tell difference?

24bit - 96K audio compared to 16bit - 44.1K audio, yes that would be hard for pretty much anyone to tell the difference.

But I think the better comparison is between the Canon 5D which now records audio at 1536kbps and the GH1 at 192kbps. And from what I gather from the Dolby info is that since the AC-3 audio is stereo and using 2 channels, the bitrate is actually 96kbps per channel compared to 768kbps with the 5D. So are you ok with only 96kbps per audio channel to start with before editing?

At least by using Tester13's adjustable bitrate setting at 384kbps you can now get each audio channel back up to 192kbps which I think is more reasonable level. 192kbps (2 channel) stereo might be fine for the final file format quality but I'm talking about the original audio file that still needs to be at the highest quality possible to survive being edited, mixed, EQ'd, remastered and then be re-compressed again into the final distribution format.

Anyways we now have the option to set the audio bitrate (kbps) higher, thanks to Tester13, so it's really no longer an issue since the work has already been done and it looks like it's working.

Randy

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 08:21 AM
How does the AVCHD Compression patch optimize the settings? Does it change the GOP structure, like adding B frames? What does it optimize?

Video Buffer: 28.000.000
Bitrate Adjustment 1: 20000000
Bitrate Adjustment 1: 24000000
AVCHD Compression
1080p24 GOP Size: 12

It is pointless set of patches and parameters.
Please see latest Note to Testers, and use it.
For all else read help hints.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 08:26 AM
But I think the better comparison is between the Canon 5D which now records audio at 1536kbps and the GH1 at 192kbps. And from what I gather from the Dolby info is that since the AC-3 audio is stereo and using 2 channels, the bitrate is actually 96kbps per channel compared to 768kbps with the 5D. So are you ok with only 96kbps per audio channel to start with before editing?


This is wrong comparison, you can't compare PCM and AC-3.
Good explanations were already given why.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 08:39 AM
Guys, I need test results made according to latest Note to Testers.

Without them I can't move forward.

sunsurfh2o
05-26-2010, 10:54 AM
Sorry, my last post was missing some specifics:

Test was with only 24p enabled, then 28k buffer/24k/20k, then again with same bitrate + AVCHD patch. Shot was static, still objects of varying shapes and colors. Can upload if required but wondering why I'm not seeing any actual change in bitrate stream aside from 'OverallBitRate Max' which I take to mean reported theoretical, not actual during encoding. 'BitRate' and 'Maximum_BitRate' remain suprising par through all corresponding tests. Am I understanding this incorrectly?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 11:26 AM
Sorry, my last post was missing some specifics:

Test was with only 24p enabled, then 28k buffer/24k/20k, then again with same bitrate + AVCHD patch. Shot was static, still objects of varying shapes and colors. Can upload if required but wondering why I'm not seeing any actual change in bitrate stream aside from 'OverallBitRate Max' which I take to mean reported theoretical, not actual during encoding. 'BitRate' and 'Maximum_BitRate' remain suprising par through all corresponding tests. Am I understanding this incorrectly?

Your results are not very useful due to bitrate patches applied, but it seems that AVCHD compression patch worked as expected.
Do not use any other patches other than mentioned in notes!
Read last Notes to Testers carefully (I moved them to first page of this theme!).

P.S. Please, delete your very long mediainfo reports, leave only bitrate related things.

sunsurfh2o
05-26-2010, 12:19 PM
1080p:
AVCHD Patch: OBR 7,779 Kbps, BR 7,270 Kbps
No Patch: OBR 15.3 Mbps, BR 14.5 Mbps

720p SH:
AVCHD Patch: OBR 8,260 Kbps, BR 7,732 Kbps
No Patch: OBR 15.1 Mbps, BR 14.3 Mbps

720p H:
AVCHD Patch: OBR 8,277 Kbps, BR 7,748 Kbps
No Patch: OBR 12.4 Mbps, 11.7 Mbps

720p L:
AVCHD Patch: OBR 8,252 Kbps, BR 7,224 Kbps
No Patch: OBR 8,285 Kbps, BR 7,756 Kbps

Better? Forgive my lack of knowledge on this subject, I'm completely new to this technology. Please explain the purpose of your AVCHD patch. What are you hoping to gain by it? I thought the purpose is to increase bitrate, thereby fidelity but the bitrate decreases with the patch and that seems counter intuitive.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 12:30 PM
Please explain the purpose of your AVCHD patch. What are you hoping to gain by it? I thought the purpose is to increase bitrate, thereby fidelity but the bitrate decreases with the patch and that seems counter intuitive.

It only seems counter intuitive.
AVCHD bitrate patch works one level lower than all bitrate constants settings.
If we actually want to increase bitrate we must move to this level.
And knowing that it works as expected could help to increase bitrate in later patches.

Please, test MJPEG patches also (see same Notes on first page).

P.S. Thanks for results! You can just delete previous very long post with info, as it makes thread very hard to read by people.

sunsurfh2o
05-26-2010, 01:05 PM
MJPG Unpatched OBR 31.7 Mbps, BR 31.2 Mbps
MJPG Setting #1 OBR 31.3 Mbps, BR 30.8 Mbps
MJPG Setting #2 OBR 31.5 Mbps, BR 31.0 Mbps

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 01:15 PM
MJPG Unpatched OBR 31.7 Mbps, BR 31.2 Mbps
MJPG Setting #1 OBR 31.3 Mbps, BR 30.8 Mbps
MJPG Setting #2 OBR 31.5 Mbps, BR 31.0 Mbps

Initially you must check ALL MJPEG Setting patches.
Or in your case (as you tested two already), check remaining two.

Lpowell
05-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Why is it that the Canon HF200, and I'm sure other AVCHD consumer camcorders, record audio at 256kbps 48kHz stereo AC-3 and not 192kbps?
I'd be interested in seeing the results of any listening tests Canon may have conducted comparing the HF200's audio quality to other camcorders in their line up which use the standard 192kbps bitrate. While Canon's promotional material for the HF200 emphasizes its 24Mbps max AVCHD bitrate, some reviewers have reported that they did not see a significant improvement in picture quality over the camera's 17Mbps AVCHD mode. Perhaps competitive marketing considerations may have been a factor in Canon's decision to increase audio bitrate as well?


And from what I gather from the Dolby info is that since the AC-3 audio is stereo and using 2 channels, the bitrate is actually 96kbps per channel...The effective bitrate would only be halved if the two audio channels were completely unrelated to each other. In practice, there is always a great deal of correlation between the two channels in live stereo recordings. One of the strategies used by the Dolby AC-3 encoder is to isolate the common monophonic content shared by both channels, and then encode additional data which enables the AC-3 decoder to reconstruct the stereo image. This technique is used effectively by MP3 and AAC encoders as well.

If you are concerned about maintaining audio quality during post-production mixdown, I think the most effective strategy is to convert all original recordings into 24-bit PCM samples, without changing the sample rate (48khz standard for video). This will allow you to attenuate any individual audio track by up to 48db without any degradation in quality. Note that 24-bit PCM master tracks can be directly input to any Dolby Digital encoder (for DVD mastering) without the need for intermediate conversion down to 16-bit samples. In my experience, it is not the original recordings that benefit from 24-bit PCM - it's when you apply post-processing effects that you can make good use of the additional 24-bit headroom.

sunsurfh2o
05-26-2010, 01:19 PM
Initially you must check ALL MJPEG Setting patches.
Or in your case (as you tested two already), check remaining two.

I understood your directions to mean select one at a time and record, not all at once. My results are based on #1, #2, #3 and #4 checked individually. For #3 adn #4 I got nearly same results as when unpatched except BR was 13.1 Mbps.

Barry_Green
05-26-2010, 01:19 PM
some reviewers have reported that they did not see a significant improvement in picture quality over the camera's 17Mbps AVCHD mode. Perhaps competitive marketing considerations may have been a factor in Canon's decision to increase audio bitrate as well?
Well, 17mbps AVCHD can look very good. If 17mbps is adequate to properly encode the scene at hand, then you won't see much improvement by going to 24mbps. You have to shoot challenging/complex scenes that cause the 17mbps to fail, to see what improvement 24mbps would offer.

Secondly, 24mbps *includes* the audio bandwidth too. So if they put in higher-bitrate audio, that would take away from the bandwidth available for video.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 01:26 PM
I understood your directions to mean select one at a time and record, not all at once. My results are based on #1, #2, #3 and #4 checked individually. For #3 adn #4 I got nearly same results as when unpatched except BR was 13.1 Mbps.

My directions sound pretty clear "Check all four patches". I do not see any other meaning.
I am also completely lost with your MJPEG reports.
You tested four patches, but reported only #1 and #2.
And after this you write "For #3 adn #4 I got nearly same results as when unpatched except BR was 13.1 Mbps".
How this can be "nearly same results " if bitrate is 13.1Mbps instead of about 30Mbps???

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 01:29 PM
Well, 17mbps AVCHD can look very good. If 17mbps is adequate to properly encode the scene at hand, then you won't see much improvement by going to 24mbps. You have to shoot challenging/complex scenes that cause the 17mbps to fail, to see what improvement 24mbps would offer.

Even good camcoder AVCHD encoder with 24Mbps can look miserably on complex scenes. Plus it can fail during quality estimation (as this is VBR codec).

matt s.
05-26-2010, 01:52 PM
Even good camcoder AVCHD encoder with 24Mbps can look miserably on complex scenes. Plus it can fail during quality estimation (as this is VBR codec).

Have to disagree here. You cant really break the HMC150's Codec at all and I have recorded many complex scenes. Even waving the camera around on purpose to try and break the codec just failed. It is very robust.

sunsurfh2o
05-26-2010, 01:53 PM
My directions sound pretty clear "Check all four patches". I do not see any other meaning.
I am also completely lost with your MJPEG reports.
You tested four patches, but reported only #1 and #2.
And after this you write "For #3 adn #4 I got nearly same results as when unpatched except BR was 13.1 Mbps".
How this can be "nearly same results " if bitrate is 13.1Mbps instead of about 30Mbps???

Regarding your meaning, I simply understood "check" to mean "look" at each one, and by that, separately. Now I see you meant "put a check mark" on each patch. Symantics.

I transposed characters 31.1 Mbps was what I got for #3 and #4, but of course it sounds as though this is useless to you because I didn't follow the directions as you intended them.

To clarify, you want us to do one recording without any patches and a second with all four patches checked. Compare. If bitrate is lower in patched state, test again with only first two patches checked. Compare. Now am I following you correctly?

I'll try and get back to this later but need to move on to other things in the meantime. Maybe someone else can get it to before then so tester13 can move forward.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 02:01 PM
Have to disagree here. You cant really break the HMC150's Codec at all and I have recorded many complex scenes. Even waving the camera around on purpose to try and break the codec just failed. It is very robust.

Do you have any small original AVCHD footage?
May be you can upload it and give a link.
As it'll be very interesting to look at low level.

Ben_B
05-26-2010, 03:07 PM
Hey not trying to cause any controversy so I will not name the website from where this info came, but a blogger who shall remain nameless recommended these settings at present if someone wants to go out and record better quality video with the GH1...do people agree that these are the best settings for higher quality video (less mud, etc) in the 1080p FHD mode?

Version change must be clicked
Interface language can be selected from large range of international options
Native 24p/25p removes need for pulldown and deinterlacing and produces slightly higher quality footage
Set video buffer = 28,000,000 from available options drop down box
Set bitrate adjustment 1 to 20000000 (note 8 digits)
Set bitrate adjustment 2 to 24000000 (note 8 digits)
Make sure AVCHD Compression is NOT ticked
Set 1080p24 GOP Size = 12

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 03:18 PM
Hey not trying to cause any controversy so I will not name the website from where this info came, but a blogger who shall remain nameless

This is not blogger, this is rather same idiot from EOSHD.
Again using copyrighted material from this thread in his so called "wiki".
Same copy-pasting. :angry:
I suggest him to remove all this info immidiately.
So, I add special ptool license for him : Not any part of ptool including my text, my posts, any screenshots of ptool must be presend on EOSHD or any other site belonging to this guy.
I'll contact his hoster tommorrow, hope dvxuser admins will do the same.

P.S. All this settings recommendation is completely baseless and pointless. So I do not recommend it to anyone.

blazer003
05-26-2010, 03:20 PM
:Edit: Looks like tester answered my question before I could ask it, but...

Something like that wiki is sorely needed for people that haven't been keeping up and cannot spend the time reading this entire thread.

:Edit #2:

It doesn't appear that he is claiming credit for any of it, he is simply presenting the information that is in this thread in a much easier to understand format. You're the creator of this project, the tool, and so it is most certainly your choice as to where and how the content is posted, but like I said earlier, if this info is incorrect, then a page like this with the correct information would be incredibly helpful. If the info is correct, but it is just the issue of posting your stuff on their site, could there be something arranged so that it better fits your vision for it, and could remain there?

I would just like to get the simpler info out there that will get everyone up to speed and hopefully get more people interested in going more in depth and testing for this project.
(http://wiki.dvxuser.com/wiki/GH1_Custom_Firmware)

Tameside
05-26-2010, 03:27 PM
Surely it must of passed customs by now? then you can do real testing at your leisure, as we can now see as it gets more complex it becomes more difficult for remote testers.

Note, I found 256k AC3 48K excellent, but its home use only;-) my patches with similar settings to above specified still have mud;-( cant apply nay more patches for now, sorry.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 03:31 PM
Something like that wiki is sorely needed for people that haven't been keeping up and cannot spend the time reading this entire thread.


All his info is present either on first page or help hints.
I'll setup web site later, but it requires time.
You do not have any need to read whole thread as I sum all required information on first page (first post for normal users, second - for testers and tech helpers).

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 03:36 PM
It doesn't appear that he is claiming credit for any of it, he is simply presenting the information that is in this thread in a much easier to understand format.

Andrew is it you again??? Sounds very similar. Admins will check soon :-)

First. This site contents is copyrighted material, so no claim is necessary, providing this info is prohibited by law.
Second. I am against from providing any my info on Andrew site or even links (I'll block dowload link with this referrer soon).

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 03:39 PM
my patches with similar settings to above specified still have mud

Do not use this settings or any bitrate patches for production, as they won't reduce mud in current state.

blazer003
05-26-2010, 03:50 PM
No, I'm not Andrew. Don't know him, only saw his post over at HV20.com. I've removed the link, as per your request, you might want to remove it from your quote of my post as well.

Anyway, frankly, I've read that first post many times, and it doesn't spell out anything in plain English the way that page does. It may all be there, but I haven't downloaded or tried anything yet, as I was very confused as to what the current status/do's and don'ts were. I just now re read that first and second post again, and I still can't figure out what exactly I can and cannot do. There are instructions to install it, I get that, but what each setting does, what the audio settings mean. There is nothing in those posts about the playback freezing from 24p playback.

I SOOO appreciate what you're doing! I'm not trying to rag on you and say, "Why don't you have a website done yet?" I know it takes a ton of time, and I don't expect you to do it all right now. I'm saying that someone should take the initiative to make a post/blog/wiki that doesn't contain the copyrighted info or what not. I don't know the legalities and ins and outs and what 'Andrew' did wrong in his wiki, but as a bystander I can tell you honestly that it was so easy to read, so easy to follow, and gave such a simple breakdown, I felt a relief that someone had finally done it.

So I'm just hoping that someone, somewhere, that knows the ins and outs of this project can do something equally as simple, without the legal problems.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 03:56 PM
I just now re read that first and second post again, and I still can't figure out what exactly I'm supposed to do.

OK.
Instructions on his page are the same, version history also, copy-paste.
It is all you really need.
All other info are in help hints for each patch, including status, etc.
Download tool, rather than write long pointless posts in Andrew style.
He have many nicks on this forum, so not all are banned yet :-)
P.S. I also do not want this "someone" as it'll require to maintain all current status in different places.

svecher
05-26-2010, 04:57 PM
All his info is present either on first page or help hints.
I'll setup web site later, but it requires time.

In fairness to Andrew, he did add some useful information that is not mentioned on this thread, or maybe not as clearly, regarding rolling back firmware to original functionality.


Unchecking all custom firmware features will return your camera to default behaviours, but version number remains incremented.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why he is making matter-of-fact statements regarding improvements in image quality, removal of mud, etc. when, by his own addmission, he hasn't performed the tests himself.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 08:07 PM
Did small calculations about HMC150 and GH1 AVCHD.

GH1 bitrate to be comparable in quality with HMC150 encoder must be around 40Mbps (in 1080p modes).
HMC encoder is generally the same as in Panasonic consumer camcorders, just bitrate is higher.
Plus AC-3 stereo audio bitrate is 384kbps (instead of default 192kbps on GH1) :-)

Interesting other things

NEX5 uses absolutely same encoder as NX5 (HXR-NX5U) with all it's quircks. Just bitrate is set at lower values.
Sony encoder is simpler in implementation (2 reframes vs 4 reframes in Panasonic camcoders).
Plus Sony writes PCM in its camcorder (NEX5 uses 256kbps AC-3)

Cavemandude
05-26-2010, 08:29 PM
Plus AC-3 stereo audio bitrate is 384kbps (instead of default 192kbps on GH1) :-)

So will raising the audio bitrate setting in the GH1 ever cut into the video side of its 17Mbps total bitrate since it was designed for 192kbps audio and the rest for video or does it just go beyond the 17Mbps with the higher audio bitrate?

Randy

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 08:48 PM
So will raising the audio bitrate setting in the GH1 ever cut into the video side of its 17Mbps total bitrate since it was designed for 192kbps audio and the rest for video or does it just go beyond the 17Mbps with the higher audio bitrate?


Do you think that you'll be able to tell 100-200kbps difference in video?
As far as I understand looking to implementation it must not reduce video bitrate.
Set 448kbps and check yourself.

Nik Manning
05-26-2010, 08:52 PM
I think that users looking to use these patches in a professional manor should probably wait until tester receives his camera and has time to properly check these settings. Right now it is very beta. The focus is on testing not explaining the tests. So easy explanation is to wait about 2 weeks for easy directions.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 09:02 PM
I think that users looking to use these patches in a professional manor should probably wait until tester receives his camera and has time to properly check these settings. Right now it is very beta. The focus is on testing not explaining the tests. So easy explanation is to wait about 2 weeks for easy directions.

We are in research state in few areas, yes.
Especially compression related (we are moving forward in MJPEG and AVCHD in parallel).
In final state in some other patches.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 10:51 PM
Just got the camera.
Tried with Pentax 50mm F1.7 and 28mm lenses.
Picture quality is slightly worse than my GX20, no IS, I can't focus without zooming properly.
Looks and feels like toy :-)
I also can't preduct flash function, got anything from blown out to underexposure.
Randomly. This is common as I now understand.
Programmers of Panasonic firmware must be really strange (selected this word due to self-censorship!) to have problems with flash on camera without mirror!!!
And random behaviour, first time I see this.



AC/Battery charger is in another parcel.
So, I can't perform any tests now.

Martti Ekstrand
05-26-2010, 11:31 PM
To focus with manual lenses use the digital zoom focus assist:

- click left keypad: yellow square in mid picture appears on LCD/EVF
- click OK: now you are zoomed in 5x - scroll wheel on front flips between that and 10x
- keypad arrows more around the zoom box with-in frame, handy if you have looked down on a tripod.
- when done, click OK again: back to normal mode.

I never use flash so can't help you there.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-26-2010, 11:37 PM
To focus with manual lenses use the digital zoom focus assist

I know about that (under zooming I mean exactly that).
On GX20 I can focus good even with stock focus screen (20% goes to bin), with MF screen it is a snap.
Just this zoom interface is not that handy.
Plus camera behave like compact when taking pictures (looking at firmware similarity with compacts I can say that it is compact inside).
On slow SD card it stop and do not allow you to take photo until writing is finished.
On DSLR you have separate thread that writes all data from buffer.

Car3o
05-26-2010, 11:38 PM
Sent parcel in a separate envelope. I'm assuming since it was sent without all the paper work like the Gh1 was, it'll be a few days, or more, behind.

Ben_B
05-27-2010, 12:11 AM
This is not blogger, this is rather same idiot from EOSHD.
Again using copyrighted material from this thread in his so called "wiki".
Same copy-pasting. :angry:
I suggest him to remove all this info immidiately.
So, I add special ptool license for him : Not any part of ptool including my text, my posts, any screenshots of ptool must be presend on EOSHD or any other site belonging to this guy.
I'll contact his hoster tommorrow, hope dvxuser admins will do the same.

P.S. All this settings recommendation is completely baseless and pointless. So I do not recommend it to anyone.

I consider any idiot with a blog to be a "blogger" ;)

There's also professional bloggers who work for companies like Gawker...consider those to be a different class.

Kholi
05-27-2010, 01:12 AM
Is there a summary on progress? What's the status and benefit so far?

24P MJPEG?

No Pulldown required?

Thread's so long... hard to find info...

rawfa
05-27-2010, 04:12 AM
I think that since many of the most important goals were achieved it would be truly great to actually see some pre hack/post hack footage comparison.

panystac
05-27-2010, 06:08 AM
tester13, I was wondering if there's any way to look at the G2 firmware to see if it's encrypted??

I guess you can't look at it until they release a firmware update??

The G2 on Amazon is around $799 USD with the single lens zoom kit, but in Japan, you can find it for around the equivalent of $580 USD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tameside
05-27-2010, 06:36 AM
He has a GH1 to play with:2vrolijk_08:

Rabot
05-27-2010, 06:42 AM
Just got the camera.
Tried with Pentax 50mm F1.7 and 28mm lenses.
Picture quality is slightly worse than my GX20, no IS, I can't focus without zooming properly.
Looks and feels like toy :-)
I also can't preduct flash function, got anything from blown out to underexposure.
Randomly. This is common as I now understand.
Programmers of Panasonic firmware must be really strange (selected this word due to self-censorship!) to have problems with flash on camera without mirror!!!
And random behaviour, first time I see this.



AC/Battery charger is in another parcel.
So, I can't perform any tests now.

Viewfinder focusing is not that hard, you'll get used to it.

sirk
05-27-2010, 07:28 AM
AFAIK, the flash issue is with lenses which don't support automatic mode - so any lense you attach with an adapter.
the problem is synchronisation of flash and exposure time. maybe something you could try to fix? :D
gratz for the cam. hope we can see lots of progress

Car3o
05-27-2010, 10:32 AM
Is there a summary on progress? What's the status and benefit so far?

24P MJPEG?

No Pulldown required?

Thread's so long... hard to find info...


24p Mjpeg.....Works, but skips every 5th frame.

No pulldown required.....Yep, none required, but can't payback videos in camera.

Lexcalcin
05-27-2010, 01:19 PM
It works for me ^^

http://larochebay.free.fr/repaire/

svecher
05-27-2010, 01:37 PM
It works for me ^^

http://larochebay.free.fr/repaire/
What does?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-27-2010, 02:15 PM
AFAIK, the flash issue is with lenses which don't support automatic mode - so any lense you attach with an adapter.
the problem is synchronisation of flash and exposure time. maybe something you could try to fix? :D
gratz for the cam. hope we can see lots of progress

Right now my battery is almost deplated, so no tests are possible :-)

Your explanation is pretty strange. Lens can't change anything with syncronization between shutter and flash. Plus for me it looks rather random.
Like shutter speed estimation and flash have absolutely no relation.

TurboTwo
05-27-2010, 02:21 PM
Hi Tester,really pleased you`ve got the GH1 at last!..what`s the plan now though..do you still get feedback from other testers and also post the results of your own testing? :-)

Lexcalcin
05-27-2010, 02:44 PM
What does?

* The time limitation (Europe) is over
* Pal -> Ntsc = ok
* Bitrate : no change

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/unclebens/repaire/GH1_hack.gif

andyjar
05-27-2010, 02:55 PM
Right now my battery is almost deplated, so no tests are possible :-)

Your explanation is pretty strange. Lens can't change anything with syncronization between shutter and flash. Plus for me it looks rather random.
Like shutter speed estimation and flash have absolutely no relation.

I've never gotten flash to really work either, but It shouldn't matter for video.

...Right?

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-27-2010, 03:07 PM
I've never gotten flash to really work either, but It shouldn't matter for video.

Yes.
But it looks astonishing.
Camera without mirror and all related difficulties with sensors is not able to fire flash correctly.
I'll try experiment with "Lens not attached" hardware error setting later.

svecher
05-27-2010, 03:52 PM
Yes.
But it looks astonishing.
Camera without mirror and all related difficulties with sensors is not able to fire flash correctly.
I'll try experiment with "Lens not attached" hardware error setting later.
I haven't used built-in flash on GH1 extensively, but in the few cases I did I haven't had a problem with signficant overexposure or underexposure in stills. These are your typical "social" snaps with very dark (not interesting) background or foreground fill in (darker foreground and brighter background, both interesting).

I do recall having blowouts when mounting an old Pentax AF-330FTZ flash. It will always fire at full power and GH1 seems incapable of adjusting exposure parameters on the fly in either program or manual modes. It would be nice if we could either measure "peak" exposure when flash is fired (so you could then set it manually) or even better, enable TTL mode. You are a Pentax hacker after all, so you may actually have the know how and interest in such "aerobatics." :happy:

Cavemandude
05-27-2010, 04:34 PM
You may want to go to one of the photo forums to figure out what you need to do. Here is a recent GH1 thread on using manual lenses with a flash.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=35375449

I attached some flash pics below shot with my GH1 using the 14-140mm kit lens. I haven't shot any flash pics with my manual lenses yet.

Randy

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-27-2010, 05:04 PM
You may want to go to one of the photo forums to figure out what you need to do. Here is a recent thread on using manual lenses with the built-in flash.

OK I'll see v1.32 improvements as soon as charger arrives.
But generally people think that flash do not work normal with manual lenses.
Flash is generally hard for software developers to figure out, as I see constant flash related problems across many brands.
I use dedicated Pentax PTTL flash normally, not build-in one.
I'll test how it works in manual mode on Panasonic.

Kholi
05-27-2010, 05:16 PM
Can someone please summarize what the progress is thus far???

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-27-2010, 05:18 PM
Can someone please summarize what the progress is thus far???

Try to read first page, please.
All progress is in first post.

Kholi
05-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Thanks, Tester.

So the 1080/24 now has bypassed pulldown? Meaning I don't have to do that in post?

rundavids
05-27-2010, 05:54 PM
If I red correctly, there is no pulldown for 24p but cannot playback clip in camera or it will freeze and need to remove battery for reboot. Is a solution being worked on to playback clips in camera?

Isaac_Brody
05-27-2010, 06:03 PM
Copied from the first post. Perhaps it might make sense to put this first in the post since it keeps coming up.


Major issues for today are:

Time limit for PAL cameras (done)
50/60fps PAL/NTSC switchable (done)
Audio Encoding bitrate low (done)
24p/25p native (done)
Third-party battery (done)

720p24 (720p25, so, partially working)
MJPEG 720p24 (skip frames)
1080p mud (have partially tested patch)
AGC for audio (research stage)
Video monitoring (research stage)

Ozpeter
05-27-2010, 06:07 PM
Isaac, you need to label the first post "Top secret - strictly private and confidential - on no account must you read this". That'll get it some attention.

PappasArts
05-27-2010, 06:19 PM
No pulldown required.....Yep, none required, but can't payback videos in camera.



Can you see/scroll through the thumbnails at least?



Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

Car3o
05-27-2010, 08:45 PM
You can't see thumbnails in video, soon as you do it freezes the cam.

For those who aren't in the "now", just d/l the ptool and load the firmware and read the descriptions each patch. They're labeled if they're working.

Vitaliy Kiselev
05-28-2010, 02:50 AM
Here is photo of my small rig with GH1.

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/60298/1275038270.jpg


Our next target will be MJPEG compression.
It is useful and it really allows to test top SD card write speed.
I hope to buy today two speedy SD cards (Sandisk Ultra and other Class 10 card).
As soon as AC will be recieved I'll start testing.

Also very interesting is that all MN controllers are debugged and communicated using so called USB JIG.
This is just ordinary USB connection, but using special driver and special software to communicated.
Service software for GH1 uses same mode.
Having this software can save us amazing amount of time as we could rewrite small parts to just set values from USB.
Other possibility is to use file stored on SD card as we know almost all necessary functions.

Tameside
05-28-2010, 04:57 AM
Nice rig.

e-steve
05-28-2010, 05:14 AM
Perhaps this has been asked already... why on earth was there no battery and charger sent with the camera itself?!

Get this man something he can work with!

Just curious. :D

Path
05-28-2010, 06:33 AM
Here is photo of my small rig with GH1.
interesting is that all MN controllers are debugged and communicated using so called USB JIG.
This is just ordinary USB connection, but using special driver and special software to communicated.
Service software for GH1 uses same mode.


I have seen references to this for other Panasonic cameras. Not sure if I included this link in my button pressing madness, but this guy found such software for a different older model:

http://www.inweb.ch/foto/lumixfun.html#docn

Nice rig tester! You deserve the camera, and I hope you can do all your testing without damaging the camera so you can enjoy it!

mpgxsvcd
05-28-2010, 09:27 AM
Has anyone posted sample footage before hack and after hack? If you need server space or bandwidth just let me know. I would love to see what the improvements look like before I buy a GH1.

alignment1
05-28-2010, 09:49 AM
Our next target will be MJPEG compression.



This sounds great Tester, but is there anyway to work out the 'playback freeze issue' in '1080p24 w/out pulldown' FW. This would be hugely helpful, in fact I'm sure a lot of people including myself are avoiding this FW b/c of that glitch.

Also- am I understanding this correct? These are 'Windows ONLY' right now? How would MAC OSX people like myself utilize these FW's?

Thanks again for your efforts

alignment1
05-28-2010, 09:51 AM
Perhaps this has been asked already... why on earth was there no battery and charger sent with the camera itself?!

Get this man something he can work with!

Just curious. :D

I'm confused by this as well, don't all of these parts come in original box??

Ben_B
05-28-2010, 10:11 AM
This sounds great Tester, but is there anyway to work out the 'playback freeze issue' in '1080p24 w/out pulldown' FW. This would be hugely helpful, in fact I'm sure a lot of people including myself are avoiding this FW b/c of that glitch.

Also- am I understanding this correct? These are 'Windows ONLY' right now? How would MAC OSX people like myself utilize these FW's?

Thanks again for your efforts

It's pretty easy to run lightweight windows programs on the mac without installing windows...check the first page there is a recommendation.

svecher
05-28-2010, 10:13 AM
Can you see/scroll through the thumbnails at least?

Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


You can't see thumbnails in video, soon as you do it freezes the cam.

back 10 pages, sunsurfh20 stated the following http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1997405&postcount=1590


but if you have ANY 1080p footage on your card when you cycle the camera on you will not be able to preview anything whatsoever [snipped] To do so you need to record a quick 720p clip or take a picture to make sure 1st item playing back is not the 1080p footage.
The second sentence seems to suggest that if the first item on the card is a still or 720p footage then browsing card contents, which includes 1080p footage, will not freeze the cam. Playback will freeze it 100% though. Can this be confirmed / disproved?

alignment1
05-28-2010, 10:22 AM
It's pretty easy to run lightweight windows programs on the mac without installing windows...check the first page there is a recommendation.

thank you sir

:laugh:

Car3o
05-28-2010, 10:34 AM
I'm confused by this as well, don't all of these parts come in original box??

they were sent, separately the same day to speed up shipping for the gh1. i had to send the gh1 under 2lbs and the extra's would've put it over it. the gh1 went through more paperwork than the second envelope of parcel and it's it appears to be taking longer. unless customs doesn't want to send tester his stuff.

Car3o
05-28-2010, 10:36 AM
back 10 pages, sunsurfh20 stated the following http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1997405&postcount=1590


The second sentence seems to suggest that if the first item on the card is a still or 720p footage then browsing card contents, which includes 1080p footage, will not freeze the cam. Playback will freeze it 100% though. Can this be confirmed / disproved?

i don't think this is accurate, as i had just stills in my thumbnails w/my footage and it froze on me twice. maybe he has a different arrangement of clips. it's 100% going to freeze your camera the second you go through thumbnails and your 1080p 24p footage is there, it will freeze.

midnightblues
05-28-2010, 11:31 AM
has anyone confirmed that the native 1080/24p clips can be imported into FCP 6 or 7 via log and transfer? thx.

billy fattey
05-28-2010, 12:31 PM
has anyone confirmed that the native 1080/24p clips can be imported into FCP 6 or 7 via log and transfer? thx.

Yes, it works great. It's completely seamless. FCP accepts the .mts files and you wind up with 24 fps footage that doesn't need pulldown.