Experienced writers here?

[J_Barnes]

II'm looking for some unbiased opinions about a script I wrote a while back.

For various reasons the project never got off the ground, but most people who read it either loved it or hated it. I'm considering trying to rewrite the thing to fit currently available locations, but every time I look at it, I wonder if it's just too depressing or too heavy for people to like.

(I never thought it was that depressing, but a few people had some real reactions to the material while others thought it was fascinating)

So I'm hoping that there might be a few people here who've got some experience writing/reading/rewriting scripts and might be willing to give it a read. I'm not looking for someone to help rewrite it, I just want some unbiased notes from people who don't know me (and thus have no opinions about my writing).

It's about 26 pages in a PDF file, and it's a bit of a thick read, but if anyone's up for it...I can send it on over via email.

[TylerGred]

I'd like to read it.

[GenJerDan]

djw@genjerdan.com

If you don't mind a writer who has never sold anything. :)

This is for your own consumption, right? So you don't care too much about proper formatting, spelling, and such. Just story, structure, "cinematic quality"?

Dan

[J_Barnes]

Hey guys...yeah, I gotta pull the script off another computer.

As far as I know it's formatted correctly, edited for grammar and spelling and all that goodness. I'm not concerned so much about the structure as I am about the actual material.

I've been told a bunch of different things by a bunch of different readers, and I suspect that many of them were influenced because they either had some involvement in the project (as in me asking them to be in it, or them asking me to be in it), or because they have some involvement with me and are worred about saying what they really think.

I'll try to send a copy to youz guyz later this afternoon.

[TylerGred]

I PM you my email address. What is it about? Or would you rather have us read it without any information?

[Stas_Tagios]

I'd be glad to read it as well, and try to get back to you as soon as possible, though I've got a busy next few weeks. I'll PM you my e-mail.

[J_Barnes]

Hey y'all...sent scripts out via email to Stas_Tagios, TylerGred and GenJerDan this morning.

Read at your leasure, I've been told it's a difficult read for some.

And thanks again for looking at it.

[Pseudonym]

I'd be happy to take a look at it. I'll send you my email through PM.

[robeditor2003]

please send me a copy would like to read it, I sent you a PM today

[J.R. Hudson]

Hook it up baby!

outlandpictures@hotmail.com

[IsraelHoudini]

whats your log line on the piece?


i find that if a work has a good log line.....it usually has a much greater chance of good execution. though some writers can take a great idea and muck it up totally. (hollywood script doctors..wink wink nudge nudge)

[J_Barnes]

whats your log line on the piece? *


i find that if a work has a good log line.....it usually has a much greater chance of good execution. though some writers can take a great idea and muck it up totally. (hollywood script doctors..wink wink nudge nudge)

Ugh! Log line!

Nothing like asking a writer to reduce his entire piece to a single sentance.

"A guy gets haunted by a series of wacky ghosts who teach him to love christmas."

"The young leader of a rebel gang pisses off the elders and gets nailed to a piece of wood."

"A bunch of short guys go searching for a magic ring."

"A guy gets stuck in a love triangle with only two people, and ends up shooting himself in the face."

"Several seedy individuals cross paths, and while fighting over an elusive briefcase, a big black man gets raped in a basement."

Obviously I'm joking here, but those could all be log lines from existing books and movies. THey're acurate deductions of the story, but don't really give an acurate appreciation for the content.

I can't come up with a log line to my script, which might be one of the many reasons why I'm having trouble with it.

How about: "Depressed guy questions the validity of science, drawing similarities between life and code whilst meandering down a path of distruction."



I'll send a copy to those of you that asked for it later this evening, but after that I won't be needing any more readers.

Thanks for everyone who's participated so far, the advice has been invaluable.

[IsraelHoudini]

"I can't come up with a log line to my script, which might be one of the many reasons why I'm having trouble with it."

>>>>i rest my case. a good writer keeps the singular vision throughout the writing process. and you yourself can see this is evident. without a clear spine you have...a disheveled mess of language. find your spine and youll find your story.

[J_Barnes]

"I can't come up with a log line to my script, which might be one of the many reasons why I'm having trouble with it."

>>>>i rest my case. *a good writer keeps the singular vision throughout the writing process. and you yourself can see this is evident. *without a clear spine you have...a disheveled mess of language. find your spine and youll find your story.

I completely disagree with your blanket statement, and without intending any disrespect, it makes me wonder how much writing experience you have...either as an observer or participant.

I would say that a good director is able to keep a clear vision of the spine, but many writers are too involved in the subtext of the spines and various arcs to realistically deduce their material to a single sentence. I don't mean that it isn't possible, I just mean that for many writers, a single line cheapens the work they've put into the storyline, and that’s what I was attempting to illustrate in my previous post.

Again, there are obviously some writers that are able to do this with ease, but there are also some who absorb themselves in the details so much that it becomes difficult to strike a single note from the score, but that doesn't mean that the writing they do is overly complicated or unfocused.

To imply that I have a disheveled mess of language isn't fair without actually READING the material, furthermore to say that an implied lack of clarity on my part is the singular problem with my script...well, it's obviously an uninformed opinion based entirely on a single post in a newsgroup.

Blanket statements and divisive opinions work better in technical arenas where facts matter more then opinion, but often enough in writing the results of the effort are wholly different from the author’s ability to quantify it.

I would suggest that you should actually bother to learn something about the script before offering a dismissive opinion about it. I don't mean to say that your opinions don't matter, just that they are uninformed...and to offer them so aggressively does a disservice any writer who puts his ego in the line of fire by offering their work up for scrutiny.

That being said, you could quite possibly reach the same opinion after you read it, but at least then you’d have something to base your opinion upon.

[GenJerDan]

I hate loglines. :) I can see their use...if someone has 50 or 100 scripts dropped on their desk each day, a logline may help narrow the field of what to read and what to toss...in a general sort of way. A logline for Gone With The Wind might tell enough for the potential reader to keep or toss, depending on whether they want to do a Civil War drama, but it couldn't possibly tell the reader whether the screenplay was "good" or "bad".

Then again, I might just think that because I suck at loglines. :D

viz. "When the Doomsday Clock finally ticks over to midnight, who will be left to pick up the pieces? The Anson family survives the apocalypse, only to face yet another threat in the mountains of Pennsylvania."

Sounds more like a TV Guide blurb.

Dan

[IsraelHoudini]

[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=writing;num=1090417512;start=0#13 date=07/30/04 at 06:27:17]

it makes me wonder how much writing experience you have...either as an observer or participant.




well, lets see. ive written and directed multiple works. some of which have won awards. had the oppurtunity to read a plethora of produced and ametuer pieces and viewed, in the last...3 years...approximately 700 films as a critic. my current project is headed to the largest studio on earth.

one of the glaring signals of problems with an author or a piece is the inability to deduce its core (i.e. a logline). if i had to put money on whether a writer could deliver the goods and i could only ask one question beforehand i would base it solely on the ability to define the core of the work, be it a script or a film. good writers can do it and so can good directors. if you can't, i would put forth that maybe one should consider novel writing instead.

now, some writers can write a fantastic logline but couldnt deliver the goods to save thier life (look at the slate of typical summer 'blockbusters' to see my point), but i have never met a writer who could deliver and not give a decent logline. that is the nature of the business . . . even though idealistic and/or naive writers continue to maintain the idea that to do so is somehow 'evil' or 'cheapens' thier work.

[Cruise]

Nobody really knows what's "good" or is going to be a hit when it comes to writing. If they did they would just punch them out like widgets on an assembly line. That even carries over to finished movies. The executives at Paramount thought "Shane" was so bad tehy didn't want to release it. Then they tried to sell it. But all those other savvy studies passed on it, too.

The best indication comes when you let your little darling see the light of day, that is you let the public read it. Most people aren't sophisticated reviewers or intellectuals. They just read it and know at a gut level that they like it or don't like it.

So a good start would be to let enough people read your stuff and then listen real carefully to the feedback. All writers have a bias toward their own material and tend to be defensive when they hear something unflattering, but if the "constructive" critisism is on the mark you will instinctively know it.

I'll be happy to read your story if you're still sharing it.

[TylerGred]

one of the glaring signals of problems with an author or a piece is the inability to deduce its core (i.e. a logline)

I read an artcle that Aaron Sorkin wrote and he said the exact same thing...

[J_Barnes]

well, lets see. ive written and directed multiple works. some of which have won awards. had the oppurtunity to read a plethora of produced and ametuer pieces and viewed, in the last...3 years...approximately 700 films as a critic. my current project is headed to the largest studio on earth.

Well that's all very vague, and anyone who would check your past posts could see that you seem to be asking a lot of simple questions in these technical forums for a director who's "current project is headed to the largest studio on earth". I'll also add that I didn't ask you to justify your opinion by quoting some vague resume, what I'm saying instead is that you are unable to assist me in the way I asked at the start of the topic.

There are a lot of people at various stages of their careers in these forums, and it’s expected that we can share and learn from each other. We don’t all have to pretend to be experts.

Please understand that I'm not meaning to insult you or discount your opinion (when defensible), but what I asked for were experienced writers who would be interested in reading my script, not people who might offer a cursory anecdote about screenwriting.

What I have is not a commercially viable project, it is not the ideal festival short, and it is not a project that can be easily filed into a specific category. It is a piece of writing that I have only minor interest in trying to shoot someday, and I wanted some unbiased opinions about the writing.

Any "glaring signals of problems" as you say are not appropriate to point out without reading the material. And I appreciate you hinting at an "idealistic" nature (or naive as you say), but the truth is that I don't want to give you a log line and that's why I am not. I asked for writers who would be interested in reading it and would be unbiased, but you seem to be quite closed and dismissive...and generally disinterested in reading it as well.

It's great that you think you know what's wrong with my script, but I'm suggesting that your opinion is gravely uninformed, and that would seem to be the least defensible type of opinion.

[IsraelHoudini]

i ask the questions i need answers to as the consumer level digital domain and amatuer authors is new to me. its quite a different world from that of the professional. i write and i direct, and now, moving into the independant world i wear many more hats and am in the process of learning all of them.

call an agent or producer and ask them how they feel about log lines. arguing with the truth will not change it. read some books on the matter, consult some writing gurus. a pattern will emerge...and it is exactly what i stated


So I'm hoping that there might be a few people here who've got some experience writing/reading/rewriting scripts and might be willing to give it a read

you asked for experienced, and i attempted to use my experience to help you. if you dont want it, thats your perogative, but blasting what anyone in the know will tell you is common knowledge in the writing world is not going to change things to accomodate you or your views on the matter.


will you read this? is most often answered by:
whats it about?

a simple question requiring only a simple reply, often called......a log line.

the problem was stated outrightly...lack of an awareness for what the piece was about manifested itself in a less than stellar execution. experience dictates that admonishing the underlying core will benefit the writing and assist you in finding the correction you seek. arguing with the truth will not change it.

being said, i rest my case.

and thusly, i will read your writing if you send it. if i am wrong i will so post.

[J_Barnes]

Perhaps your case rests on your own foot. Your common knowledge is commonly known, and thus it offers no help to me.

I’m not particularly interested in your opinion is about writing in general, and I don't care what your opinion is about what makes a writer good or bad. Those are completely off-topic items that shouldn't have ever entered this discussion yet you seem to persist, boorishly bating me to fix a problem that you haven’t seen.

I don't know how to state this to you in a way you can understand, other them to repeat the fact that I asked for people to actually read my material, not offer cursory anecdotes about screenwriting. If someone asked you to watch a short film they directed, would you respond with a diatribe about film structure?

I don't argue with you about the importance of log lines, about the understanding of the spine, character arcs, inciting incidents, the 39 dramatic situations, the twenty-two steps, the Aristotelian three-act structure, the five-act structure, story beats, the paradigmatic axis, Campbell, Truby, Jung, McKey, Volger, or whatever else you’d like to quote from whatever screenwriting books you’ve read.

My point isn’t that you’re right or wrong about anything, my point is that you are offering information that is neither researched nor requested.

I asked for writers who might be interested in reading my material because I wanted feedback about the writing and the content, and that feedback is only valid when the writing and content is actually considered. Many of my gut feelings about the script have been confirmed through the criticism I’ve received, yet surprisingly, there were an equal number of issues I suspected people raise only to find them being praised.

That kind of feedback doesn’t come out of a Syd Field Collector’s Edition bookshelf set.

It’s great that you feel compelled to spill your “knowledge and experience” on me, but it does nothing to help and it does nothing to answer the question I raised. I wanted writer’s reactions to my script, not opinions about log lines. Do you understand at all what is the difference between the two?

I never disputed anything you said about log lines, other then to say it was not appropriate given the context of the thread, but if you’d like to continue your “expertise” in a forum that would be fitting I could start a threat about log lines for you.

[IsraelHoudini]

is it really so impossible to answer 'what is it about'?

one simple querry to determine if i felt compelled to take an in depth look at your writing. one simple reply to guage whether it whets my appetite or elicits the necessary nonchalance to provoke a 'pass'?

or, is it really about nothing at all, manifesting itself in the all consuming agony you find in delineating a response for yourself and others alike?

[J_Barnes]

[quote author=IsraelHoudini link=board=writing;num=1090417512;start=15#21 date=08/04/04 at 02:30:23]is it really so impossible to answer 'what is it about'? [quote]

Ahh, and finally to the crux of the issue. As I said, I didn't want to give anyone a log line, but my resistance to a log line is not born of petulance as you may suggest but instead is a simple assurance against preconceived notions.

I would prefer people to walk into my short without any knowledge whatsoever of the subject matter or plot contained within. The theory being that so many plotlines or dramatic conflicts have become such a part of the universal subconscious lexicon that any description of plot immediately suggests comparisons in the viewer’s mind. I would rather have a reader learn what he’s reading through the words on the page rather then from some brief synopsis, freeing them to either appreciate or detest the material in its entirety without expectation.

Thus any logline or synopsis was unimportant for the purposes of my experiment.

You’ve made it endlessly clear that you’d like a log line and I’ve made it endlessly clear that I didn’t want to give you one, thus I don’t see the need for malignity.

As Bobby Brown says, it’s my prerogative.

[Pseudonym]

In this respect, I have to side with J_Barnes. I posted a request for people to read my script. I included a brief two line description of what the short was about and I've had only one response from someone whom I had already sent the script to before asking for opinions. And they just said they were going to take a look at it. That means no responses. Where is the love people?

It pays to reveal slowly. I've read J_Barnes' script, and it can be summarized in a log line. But who would want to now that it's been built up so much.

[TylerGred]

is it really so impossible to answer 'what is it about'? I would prefer people to walk into my short without any knowledge whatsoever of the subject matter or plot contained within.

How do you plan on getting people to see the short then?

[J_Barnes]

How do you plan on getting people to see the short then?


No, silly...I meant 'walk into' in the figurative sense of reading it without knowing about it. It hasn't been produced.

[TylerGred]

No, silly...I meant 'walk into' in the figurative sense of reading it without knowing about it. *It hasn't been produced.

Well then why do you have a problem with them knowing about the plot before they read it?

[Cruise]

I think I'm going to write a script about an innocent inquiry on a screenwriting web site that slowly unravels into this complex twisting and turning banter amongst a variety of interesting characters.

All the elements for a good story are there, conflict (the log line battle), mystery (we never get to actually read anything), major plot points, and of course the satisfying resolution which is yet to come.

Stay posted.

Seriously, J_Barnes, it would be nice to actually read your stuff. By now you've got my curiosity. I'm certainly no expert, but I can give you an honest opinion. And I'll be glad to put a scene from one of my scripts on the line to let you have a crack at it too, to show it's all in good faith.

Peace and good will to all writers.

[J_Barnes]

I've been meaning to send the script out to the last few people that asked for it, but I've been working on this project with the Mint, so I haven't had time yet. I'll try and do it tomorrow morning.

Also, this got built up way more then it should ever have been. I never said it was "good", just to clarify. Also, I never said it was very "filmable" either.

I wouldn't want anyone to expect they're actually getting something good in their email, just something to criticize. I'm trying to see if there's a specific collective criticism, and so far there hasn't been.

[J_Barnes]

Well then why do you have a problem with them knowing about the plot before they read it?

It's a stupid reason, posted above by me.


I would prefer people to walk into my short without any knowledge whatsoever of the subject matter or plot contained within. The theory being that so many plotlines or dramatic conflicts have become such a part of the universal subconscious lexicon that any description of plot immediately suggests comparisons in the viewer’s mind. I would rather have a reader learn what he’s reading through the words on the page rather then from some brief synopsis, freeing them to either appreciate or detest the material in its entirety without expectation.

Thus any logline or synopsis was unimportant for the purposes of my experiment.

[TylerGred]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time Barnes, I was just curious. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

[J_Barnes]

none taken.

No one would have arguments on DVXuser if we were in a bar where we could actually read people and understand what's sincere and what's joking.

Until that becomes the case, we have to discuss things out until people either get tired or understand what you're trying to say (even if they don't agree with you).

Speaking of beer...

[HansK]

a good writer keeps the singular vision throughout the writing process.

I have to agree with IH here and even one up his comment:

A good Fill In The Blank keeps the singular vision throughout the Fill In The Blank process.

This applies to any process, be it writing, filming, editing, or Fill In The Blank. It's possible to finish without a singular vision, it just might take a lot longer.

A log line helps to clarify a writer's vision. In my experience, I will find myself wondering around my mind trying to put pen to paper. It's then that I return to my log line. It's a tool that focuses my mind and says 'hey, this is what your story is about'.