Ooooh, the SLOOOOOOOW render???

[gossamer]

So i just edited my first batch of footage with my new DVX100a. *My first project is an infomercial (ugh * ) for a local foundation repair company (gotta pay the bills, ya know.) *I put together 15 mins of the footage for a tradeshow display they're setting up this week.
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Here's the thing, I LOVE the footage. *the interviews turned out really good and I'm VERY happy. *I used to shoot on a Digital 8, so this camera was an amazing upgrade.
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I'd LOVE to post a grab for you guys to look at, but i'm in the render right now. *
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So this is my question:
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How do you guys speed up your render? *I use AE after comping in Premier. *It's a 15 minute project on a Mac G4 (OSX) with a gig of ram and the render time estimate is around 7 hours. *Is this normal or am i doing something wrong. *I've done lot's of commercials, 30 seconds, and those renders are obviously quick. *I thought maybe some of you who've done lengthier stuff might have a recommendation. *(nested comps? more memory? better computer?)
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Also, what compressors do you find to be good? *For this render I'm using Sorensen 3 but in the past it seemed to darken things a bit. *I typically use Animation for the final version as it seems to do the best. *What about MPEG4? I don't know sh*tE about video compressors. *Audio compression, I'm your man.
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In short, I love the camera and love this site, you're all very VERY helpful. *Just wondering if there is anything i can do to speed up the render and what compressor you guys recommend. *I'll post grabs soon.
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Thanks

[Jive]

Usually, the codec you use to encode your footage is dependent on its intended use. For instance, if you're going to be outputting to DV tape for broadcast (and the AE render is your final cut of the piece), your only option really is using a DV codec. In such a case, rendering to animation and taking it back into premier for output to tape would result in the need for premier to encode it to DV anyway.

Other codecs such as mpeg4 are for when the piece is destined for the web or small storage media (CD-Rom, etc.). You also have MPEG-2 which is primarily for delivery on DVD.

Your render times will be largely dependent on your computer's power, the amount and complexity of the effects you've added, and the codec used to encode your piece. Obviously, with all of these factors involved, render time can vary greatly with a change to even one of them. Besides changing any of these factors (such as upgrading your computer), all you can really do is make sure nothing else is running on the computer taking up computer resources and making sure your system is optimized to use its resources to the fullest.

[gossamer]

Jive,

Thanks for the information. I never knew any of this, i feel like an idiot. Do you know of a site or resource where the codecs and their intended uses are listed? Something like what you provided above?

thanks.

[kai]

You'll want to avoid sorenson 3 for any work you'll be using on a TV/monitor.. it's a web format, and as Jive said, if you'll be using this piece for broadcast etc (like tradeshows), you'd use DV codec and output to tape. Also, if you want to speed up your render (not by much but every little bit helps), make sure you "purge" before you start the render. This clears your ram of any previews, etc that may be taking up space. It's up in the menus: "purge>all". As far as 7 hours for a 15 minute piece, that's probably not too far off... granted there are MANY factors that play into that... how many layers, effects, etc. Plus, remember you're "editing" in a compositing/effects application, so it's not going to be as quick as a NLE...

[TylerGred]

http://www.siggraph.org/education/materials/HyperGraph/video/codecs/Default.htm

That one has some info on it. I am sure there are better ones out there though...

[gossamer]

One question regarding MPEG2.

I use iDVD to burn DVDs. I "ass-u-me" that this program converts from whatever into MPEG2 format????? IF this is the case, what codec should i use to render out of AE?

[kai]

if and when I use iDVD, I render out of AE using the DV codec....

[Jive]

I'm not very familiar with iDVD so I don't know if it can only accept certain codecs (as it is an application designed to make DVDs from home video cameras).

However, it is very likely that it will accept any valid quicktime MOV file. Therefore, to get the best possible final DVD image, you could render out of AE using an uncompressed codec such as Animation. Keep in mind that filesize for something rendered with this codec will be much larger than if the DV codec was used. Also, depending on the type of effects that you added in AE, the difference between DV and Animation may be very minimal, so rendering to DV to benefit from a smaller file and (possibly) shorter render times would be a viable option.

Also, don't feel silly for not automatically knowing these things. It takes time to learn them.

[scharky]

Kai
whenever I render out of after effects with a dv codec it get some major recompression. Is there a secret to re rendering from after effects using the dv codec. Right now, on anything of any kind of length I use the jpeg motion codec which is similar in file size to the dv codec but is virtually indistinguishable from the original footage.

[PurposeDriven]

Scarky, you need to use a DV codec. Your NLE main contain one that is selectable in AE. I don't use the motion Jpeg, but I would stick with a DV codec. What's your NLE??

[scharky]

I use vegas. *However, when I encode using either the Microsfoft dv or the quicktime dv codec I get really poor results. *It looks like half the resolution of the original. *For short stuff (30sec to 1min) I usually use an uncompressed avi as the output, but for some reason the dv codec looks really bad recompressed.
Here is an example
http://www.stefweb.net/screen2.jpg

Notice the lack of detail in the grain on the face, as well as the lack of the fine hair on the top of the guys head. *If you also look closely at his shoulders you can see compression artifacts. *The colors are also very muted and greyed out. *The left grab is using the quicktime dv-dvcpro codec in after effects. *The one on the right is using the motion jpeg codec. *There is virtually no quality loss from the jpeg codec when looking at the original clip. *Anybody got any ideas?

also note that I used the highest quality settings on both codecs.

note one more thing, the files are anamorphic 16x9 so they look a little squished on the screen as they have not been stretched yet.

[PurposeDriven]

Have you looked at the clip on the timeline? There is a quality switch to go from low res to high. I may have mentioned this in another topic. The quality is automatically set to low res to allow you to work easier in AE. So make sure that the clip(s) on the timeline are set to highest quality.

[scharky]

Right, I always make sure that when I render I use the "best quality" settings and "full res". Besides, those two clips were made from the exact same timeline, just using a different codec. I mean i don't mind using the motion jpeg as a codec as it performs flawlessly and is just as lossless as the dv codec, about the same size too. I just don't understand why After effects can't do a good render using the dv codec.

[PurposeDriven]

I don't know why you are having problems. I have been satisfied every time with rendering using the DV codec. Try another machine to make sure thats your problem is one suggestion.

[scharky]

I actually have tried it on two different machines, one being a mac, and got exactly the same results. I even called adobe, guess what their advice was. When outputting you should use try and use an uncompressed file as much as possible. I guess they figure we all have terrabytes of storage space on our machines.

[Neil Rowe]

..hmm its always worked ok for me too. you should try a different dv codec, like the avid one, and see if its just specific to the dv codec, also make sure your quicktime player is set to high quality playback. or if you havent already, try playing it back in different programs to make sure that its not just one specific player that doesnt like to play nice with the dv codec.

[kai]

Good idea IAL... I was going to suggest the avid dv codec as well. Just install "Avid Free" and that codec will be installed on your machine, which you can then use in AE, etc...

btw, I've always just accepted the fact that DV compressed footage can sometime look like crap on a computer monitor, but once it's on an ntsc monitor, it's usually fine. (at least for me)

[Boy]

referring back to the topic of slow renders...
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=AE;action=display;num=1081206566;st art=0

[scharky]

Sorry to inturrupt again, and take over the topic. I finally figured out what was going on. I was actually fighting my way through a tutorial when it told me to press the little slash button like this one(\) but in dots and switch it to this one (/) without dots. That cleared up the picture wonderfully. The thing I cant understand however is that that little button did not seem to effect other codecs that I rendered to, on the NTSC DV codec. Hmmmmm. Well it all works now, thanks again for your tips. now get back to your Slooooooow renders.

[kai]

those are your "quality switches"... they're used to switch between a quick & dirty preview mode, and hi-quality...

[scharky]

But the thing is, they shouldn't effect your render, should they? I have always set the quality to Best in the render Q when rendering? And why only effect the dv codec, both quicktime and AVI. Maybe there are some things that are better off not understanding, as long as I know how to make it work. :)