Scarlet 30nov

[morgan_moore]

Teasers have started

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274

S

[nantnee]

whats the point of have a Fixed 8x lens on it?

[PerroneFord]

What's wrong with that?

[Barry_Green]

whats the point of have a Fixed 8x lens on it?
Because the prime lenses would cost about $5,000 for a set, so... why not have the option of a fixed-lens version? You don't have to buy it, you could buy the interchangeable and the mini-primes, but that kit would cost more.

Different product for different purposes.

[nantnee]

i should have clarified or read more into it. But the Brain is only $2750, with a Nikon mount at $500, I'm not taking into account the other supplied accessories that come with the Fixed price.. Isn't this what people wanted, to get away from fixed lenses.

[PerroneFord]

Isn't this what people wanted, to get away from fixed lenses.

Kinda depends on which "people" you mean. Some people wanted interchangeable lenses. Others wanted shallow DOF. Others wanted higher resoultion. Still others wanted the non-proprietary recording media. Some wanted the RAW workflow. Others wanted all this or some combination of the above.

As I said way back when this thing was announced... if they can put a 3k RAW camera, with a 35mm sensor, and interchangeable lenses in the neighborhood of the EX3, they are going to have a winner. The Scarlet really doesn't need to be trying to compete with the 5Ds and GH1s of the world. They'll get killed on economy of scale.

Still an exciting prospect for many pro shooters. Sadly, most people really lack patience.

[cinebuddy]

Still an exciting prospect for many pro shooters. Sadly, most people really lack patience.

I lack cash :( It's gonna be one hell of system when it drops.

[Kholi]

=( With the downfalls of the Canon and Panasonic cameras, 2/3" sensor or not, I'm heavily considering a Scarlet Brain w/RED Mini Primes and Canon mount.

I do hope they issue a PL mount.

[ethan cooper]

I do hope they issue a PL mount.

If they don't, someone else will.

[Barry_Green]

=( With the downfalls of the Canon and Panasonic cameras, 2/3" sensor or not, I'm heavily considering a Scarlet Brain w/RED Mini Primes and Canon mount.
So would you be happy with a 2/3" chip?

This whole Scarlet thing was pretty weird to me today. I've been thinking the 2/3" is the one that doesn't make any sense in today's marketplace, in comparison to GH1s with 4x as much sensor surface area, or a 7D with 5x as much sensor surface area, for 1/4 the price.

I wanted to know about the Scarlet S35. Man, I thought the S35 was where the party was at.

But no news. They gave a bunch of tasty details on the 2/3" system which, when kitted out, is gonna be $5,000 to $9,000 ($2500 brain plus the shooting kit, plus the optional primes), totally in a different league than any of the SLRs. And it won't have the shallow DOF of the SLRs. Granted it'll almost definitely have cleaner footage, no aliasing, and 120fps, so it'll have substantial advantages, but ... I dunno, how will the "good enough revolution" scenario play out? How many of you out there would just plunk down the $1500 to $2000 for a GH1 or 7D and start shooting, vs. finding $5,000 to $9,000 for a Scarlet kit?

Then, what I wanted, the S35, is listed at $7,000 with "more info sometime." And no mention at all of FF35.

So here's where I get to thinking ... what's the big difference between the Epic and the Scarlet S35? Every module is compatible and interchangeable, but the Epic is $28,000 and the Scarlet is $7,000. Why would I want one Epic instead of four Scarlets? I'm sure the Epic will have some advantages, but frankly the S35 Scarlet sounded like it pretty much had anything any of us might ever want. So I ask... other than a privileged few to whom money really is no object, who of any of us would rather have one Epic than four Scarlets? Or one Scarlet, and $21,000 of lenses and accessories? Am I reading this wrong?

So now I'm starting to wonder if maybe the Scarlet, instead of "starting at the S35" like I've been thinking, is now being more clarified as what it was always intended to be, a companion/accessory to the Epic (well, Red One at the time, but now clearly Epic). Does it really make sense for them to introduce the Scarlet that I want? The S35 is what I want. I don't want or need FF and wouldn't pay a dime more for it. And I certainly don't prefer 2/3" over S35 size; I mean, I'd rather have 2/3" than 1/3", of course, but ... that train has kind of already left the station. Cinema-sized frames are already here at $800, so ... to me, the Scarlet was the S35. But won't that impact Epic sales? 'Cause I have to admit, I haven't given the Epic four neurons' thought since hearing about the S35 Scarlet, whereas a couple of years ago I might have been mega-jazzed about the Epic...

I dunno. I was more amped leading up to this Red announcement than any prior one, and it left me kinda empty. :/

But, no matter, it's at least six months before anything's going to be released, so I can go back to not worrying about it, and a million billion things could change between now and then ("count on it.")

So I ask -- what do you folks think? Anyone who was leaning toward an SLR now firmly willing to forget that and wait, because the Scarlet details are exactly what you want? Anyone who was willing to wait, who's now decided "forget it, I'll go with an SLR"? And does anyone else think I'm crazy about the S35?

[Jason Ramsey]

Cinema-sized frames are already here at $800, so ...

Yes... but... (FOR ME personally)... sensor size is just not worth all the tradeoff's to me, nor is it so important that I'd be willing to settle for an 800 dollar camera that lacks a lot of what I want, and has other shortcomings I don't want to deal with.

BUt, here's the deal... I still don't see the 2/3" Scarlet and the DSLR's as competitors. I see them as completely different beasts.

---

In terms of DOF, which seems to be all anyone cares about these days... it's 2.5 stops. Now, everyone may be running around shooting their 7d's and gh1's wide open, but that's not where most films are shot as far as I know.


I dunno. I was more jazzed leading up to this Red announcement than any prior one, and it left me kinda empty. :/

I was kinda the opposite this time. Had a lot going on, and was sick, and then was like... oh, crap... I have to get ready to deal with all the announcement drama... But, I left feeling quite impressed by what is coming.

But, then... sensor size is just pretty low on my list of priorities these days in comparison to so many other important factors. I think 2/3" is fine for a broad range of purposes, and more than reasonable enough to pull a 35mm'ish DoF from under the proper circumstances. I'm more attracted to wider deeper shots these days than I am the portrait, focus on your eyelashes look. Striking a balance works for me. Forcing me to be a bit more creative with my choices works for me. Looking at DoF of less than a foot at 5-10 feet away on the more tele mini-primes works for me.

Plus, in a couple of years, we may likely see a new brain with Scarlet/Epic uber-feature-functionality set at today's Scarlet prices. your modules and such will carry forward.

Later,
Jason

[stephenvv]

So would you be happy with a 2/3" chip?

This whole Scarlet thing was pretty weird to me today.

Yeah, I pretty much had the same reaction. The fixed lens Scarlet seems like a no mans cam. Fixed lenses are most appealing to ENG/Event shooter from a sales stand point but I can't see many of them wanting RAW workflows etc. EX1 seems like a better cam for them.

The 2/3" interchangeable with a set of mini primes and parts could cost $7500 to well over $10k. That seems a hard sell as well.

Sure, my 7D has some "issues" but my guess from non-camera geeks reaction to footage thus far, Scarlet better have an amazing sensor from a color/dynamic range/noise to overcome the great sensor in the 7D.

I think Red has missed their window. It's very likely a GH2 and more Canon, Nikons and perhaps Sony cams will be released and shipping before any 2/3" Scarlet is for sale.

If this 2/3" Scarlet had shipped early or mid 2008, maybe. But given the pattern of Red thus far, it likely will be fall 2010.

Given the sales and interest of GH1/7D/5D Mk II, MK IVs, my guess is they will have to hit home runs on quality, availability, stability, post workflow etc. to sell enough to make it work.


Then, what I wanted, the S35, is listed at $7,000 with "more info sometime." And no mention at all of FF35.Yeah, that's a red flag :)

That means a S35 is a ways off possibly as I agree - it might cause potential Epic buyers to wait given the price difference. If I could get a nice Scarlet S35 kit for $5000 without lens, that's interesting. But for $7000 body only - shooting kit is probably $15k.

I think this means these cams are really in different category completely. And I'm very skeptical this category has huge numbers of buyers by the time it's available.

Unless Canon, Nikon, Panasonic and whoever else gets serious with video DSLRs, Red has some challenges. At this point, they would have to release a S35 kit with zoom lens, ready to shoot for $5000 to $7500 to even argue about a "revolution".

Unfortunately, it looks like they missed it. Video DSLR are the revolution - flawed, bleeding edge but totally revolutionizing low budget/indie/micro video and film production.

[killacam]

the big difference (to me at least) between the epic s35 and the scarlet s35 is that the epic will be able to do 250fps at 2k for that super slo-mo (along with other speeds at other resolutions). obviously there are other differences though like being able to shoot in 5k as opposed to 3k for the scarlet version but 3k is probably enough for me and a lot of other people. it probably just has a much faster processor/chip in general. 'I'm not sure if its redcode compression is better but it might be. It does seem nice that it seems like you'll be able to use your scarlet modules with the epic (if you ever upgrade or want to rent an epic brain for a day or so).

I think they did spend more time on the 2/3" today as opposed to the s35 but it does come out first (so maybe it's further along in the development cycle) and really there was not that much more information revealed about it. I mean the modules are applicable to both and the prices for both brains were revealed. It was nice that they finally revealed the mini prime prices, but we've known the red pro prime lense prices for a while (if you choose to use those instead of canon/nikon/whatever lenses for the s35). the s35 is pretty darn nice but the lack of slo-mo is kind of a bummer for me at least. It might seem like a step back to go back to a 2/3" sensor after using all these nice DSLRs but then there are always tons of great films and tv shows shot on super 16, the thomson, f23, si-2k etc. etc.

the proof is in the pudding though and I think everyone's gotta be pretty anxious to see some footage out of these things. pretty cool news though.

[Jason Ramsey]

That means a S35 is a ways off possibly as I agree

S35 Scarlet looks only to be a couple of months behind the 2/3" Scarlet. Price is the same. release date is summer. probably not much more to add to it, other than the other scarlet specs that were announced today.

The internals on Scarlet and Epic will also be a lot different, and, as Barry has pointed out in the past, their priority right now is EPIC. So, while the modules are the same, and the sensor block is the same, the innards are not at all.

--

as to the rest of it... Again.. I still see the current crop of dslr's as very different market segments on the whole. Not to say there isn't a wide range of people using them. But, I just don't see the comparison's in the first place. But, that's just me.

[stephenvv]

as to the rest of it... Again.. I still see the current crop of dslr's as very different market segments on the whole. Not to say there isn't a wide range of people using them. But, I just don't see the comparison's in the first place. But, that's just me.

I think it is just you :)

Most people I know who've bought 5D/7D/GH1 were all looking at 2/3" Scarlets (and wishing they could afford S35 Scarlets).

So who exactly is a potential 2/3" Scarlet buyer but NOT a video DSLR buyer? All the Red Rock Micro etc. aftermarket already in place and under development for video DSLR seems to point to them at the #1 competitor for Scarlet 2/3" sales.

EX1, HVX, HPX are competitors as well although they serve the ENG/EFP market much better than Scarlet 2/3" or video DSLRs.

Just look at all the "wait for Scarlet or buy a 7D/GH1/5D?" posts right here. I'm sure Red is hoping that 120fps junkies or 3K RAW imagery is so superior to whatever Canon, Panny etc. has shipping next summer that they will be the revolution again.

But right now, I think the odds of that are long and getting longer.

[Luis Caffesse]

Just look at all the "wait for Scarlet or buy a 7D/GH1/5D?" posts right here. I'm sure Red is hoping that 120fps junkies or 3K RAW imagery is so superior to whatever Canon, Panny etc. has shipping next summer that they will be the revolution again.

But right now, I think the odds of that are long and getting longer.

Well, to be fair there are plenty of other advantages (though you named a few of the main ones). 3K in comparison to 1080P is pretty big, and RAW recording is a huge advantage for many people over H.264 compression.

On top of that don't forget you're talking about a camera that is designed to shoot video (as well as stills) - meaning on board audio options, focus assist features, etc etc... all the things we've come to get used to on video gear that we're having to compromise on and find workarounds for wiht the current crop of DSLR cameras.

The other feature I'm finding very interesting in the RED lineup is the availability of smart lens mounts - sure i can put Nikon glass on my 7D right now, but I lose all electronic communication with the lens. The ability to control Nikon and Canon (and obviously Red) glass via the brains is pretty cool.

Sure, there are many who will opt for an alternative DSLR because the differences may not matter for their particular situation - but I think there are plenty of people would much prefer to spend a bit more money and not have to make as many compromises and workarounds.

Not the perfect tool for all people, no - but definitely it will be a good tool for many, I think.

[Luis Caffesse]

Just realized we have a couple of thread on this....
we should probably move the conversation over here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=192226


Thanks.

[Barry_Green]

I dunno, it sure sounds like the target market is the same. They aren't going after broadcast, presumably -- raw workflow != broadcast. And they aren't going after soccer moms anymore, it seems pretty certain that's off the table. Scarlet looks like a Red, just a less-expensive Red.

So the DVXUser buyers who are buying DSLRs, look to me to be pretty much the same market as those who would be going for a Scarlet.

It just seems like there's a weird fit here. 2/3" for broadcast would be great, especially at the $5k price point -- that'd be fantastic. But what broadcaster wants an 8x f/2.8 lens? Or a raw workflow? So it doesn't seem to fit there.

2/3" for digital cinema -- two years ago, that'd be off the hizzy. But today, when we're all used to at least Four Thirds (four times the size of the 2/3" chip) or full 35mm cine size... 2/3" seems like a step back. And then to be stuck at f/2.8... 2.8 is great at 35mm cine size, but on a 2/3" camera, not so great. A 2/3" camera has almost 3 stops deeper DOF than a cinema-frame like a 7D. So if you're shooting at f/2.8 on a 2/3" Scarlet, that's like shooting everything at almost f/8 on a 7D. The T1.5 cinema primes on the interchangeable-lens body will help, but even so, if you went with wide-open 1.5 on the Scarlet, that's still like shooting f/4 on the 7D or cinema frame.

There's a bigger DOF difference between 2/3" and cinema, than there is between 1/4" and 2/3".

Well, I guess you could always use a Letus Mini or Brevis or something like that to overcome it, but then we're back to adapters... I was just thinking of selling my Letus Ultimate... but now do I have to keep it? Grr.

I dunno, just seems a little odd to me. Two years ago this would have been an unprecedented out of the park home run (and may still be, of course). But with the DSLR revolution and cinema DOF available already... are folks gonna be happy with 2/3"? Does the rest of it make up for the lack of the cinema DOF?

Love the price point, love the mini-primes price point, love the features, and LOVE the idea of perfectly-sharp alias-free 1080p... but giving up 2.75 stops of DOF is a lot... I don't know. Of course it's way better than 1/3" or even 1/2", of course... I just ... is that what people want? And obviously many people would, as a C-camera on a Red shoot, as a crash cam, as a "pocket cinema" camera, yes... I'm just wondering what the pulse is for DVXUser members, is 2/3" what they want?

Meh. I'll probably get one anyway, depending on how the S35 thing goes... I'd love to have the one camera that does it all, but I don't think we're anywhere close to it yet...