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View Full Version : Is a moderator 'hiatus' exception acceptable?



Jason Ramsey
11-23-2009, 05:50 PM
Ok. Someone suggested make it into an anonymous poll. So, here you go.

Do you think it is acceptable to allow moderators to be temporarily removed as moderator prior to any discussion of a next fest, and to remain on hiatus as moderator (no access to the mod discussion forum or any other moderator privileges) until the conclusion of the festival, and allow them to be eligible for the competition phase of the festival as well?

For the last couple of years, moderators haven been able to enter the festival, but only as exhibition entries. This exception would allow them to be eligible for competition as well should they choose to take advantage of it.

This exception would not be allowed for myself, or for Larry R. But, any other mod could potentially take advantage of this exception if it is agreeable to the membership, and if we have the manpower at the time to warrant their absence. They would be removed as moderator at such time that we begin to discuss the next festival (usually a couple of weeks prior to its announcement) and would remain as a "regular member" until they are no longer in competition.

This is an anonymous poll. Please vote honestly.

NOTE: This is currently in the rules for BetrayalFest. HOWEVER, no mod could use this exception for BetrayalFest as per the rules. The soonest a mod could take advantage of this rule would be the summer festival. Any moderator entering BetrayalFEST would be exhibition only.

Thanks.

later,
Jason

Stephen Mick
11-23-2009, 05:53 PM
No need to be anonymous for me. I'm for it. You guys have as much a right as anyone to make films and participate.

My only thought would be that, if we have "celebrity" jurors involved in judging as we did with MonsterFest, perhaps those screenings should be anonymous for the judges.

AJ Brooks
11-23-2009, 05:59 PM
I say yes.

There's a lot of talent among the moderators, I'd love to see it in the fests. And I think they are all trustworthy and would not do anything unfair.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-23-2009, 06:04 PM
I say yes.

There's a lot of talent among the moderators, I'd love to see it in the fests. And I think they are all trustworthy and would not do anything unfair.
Keep in mind here, voting NO doesn't mean you think the Mods cheat or that you don't want to see their new work. Exhibition status is there for a reason.
Again, it shouldn't be about the prizes. They are always free to enter and receive feedback.

My only reason to vote no would be to keep this festival looking reputable. Of course they don't cheat. I hope nobody here is accusing them of that.

MAH

bwind22
11-23-2009, 06:26 PM
It doesn't bother me any. Mods are just people that give more time to this site than the rest of us. I don't feel like they should be punished for that. In fact, if it were my call, I'd say Jason R & Larry R should be able to enter too.

Blaine
11-23-2009, 07:25 PM
Hell yeah.

Ben Sliker
11-23-2009, 07:41 PM
for sheez.

esp. considering most moderators were at one point, not moderators AND active/winning participants in DVXuser festivals anyway.

Cassius
11-23-2009, 07:43 PM
As long as they don't all do it.

Jordan_S
11-23-2009, 09:58 PM
My only reason to vote no would be to keep this festival looking reputable. Of course they don't cheat. I hope nobody here is accusing them of that.

Well-stated.

Shawn Philip Nelson
11-23-2009, 10:09 PM
In addition to a resounding 'yes', i'd say it's not to late even now for a mod to 'un-mod' for Betrayal Fest.

Norm Sanders
11-24-2009, 12:16 AM
Yeah, bring on the competition! Personally, I wish there were some way to have the films ALL be anonymous, only because I even find myself watching some films over others, simply because of who's behind it, expectations, etc. Although, this would totally befuddle the campaign/pre-discussion thread process.....

Barry_Green
11-24-2009, 12:35 AM
Yeah, bring on the competition! Personally, I wish there were some way to have the films ALL be anonymous, only because I even find myself watching some films over others, simply because of who's behind it, expectations, etc. Although, this would totally befuddle the campaign/pre-discussion thread process.....
I agree. I'd love to see the films be absolutely anonymous, so that they could be judged solely on their content, and with no preconceived notions at all.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 12:56 AM
yes, but then i think we'd b e missing out on a lot of the "film school on the internet" thing that we get from the threads now. With everyone being anon nobody could talk about lighting set ups, clever techniques they've employed, how they scored that sweet location, etc..
It would all have to happen AFTER the fest, and well, i just don't see it working out that well afterwards.

Norm Sanders
11-24-2009, 02:03 AM
True, it would have to happen after the fest, and true, not many people would be as interested after the fact, because everyone would be onto the next best thing....

However, IF they were to go anonymous, then it could go one of two ways:

Since threads wouldn't be opened in advanced & pimped, then it would take away a lot of the distractions, allowing filmmakers to take time to discuss & learn after the winners are announced ....

OR

Instead of announcing the new fest immediately, give a one week "cooling" period to allow the threads to be discussed for respective films, etc. A week should more than cover all the Q&A that may come up from viewings.

All just in theory, of course, since I doubt the films would ever go anonymous ... I do think there's a lot to be learned in the whole hype/advertisement side of it as well. And just like in real life, people will go to see a film simply because of who's making it, or who's in it ... DVXfests aren't too different, once someone has made a name for themselves, or marketed well.

Darkline
11-24-2009, 03:25 AM
I vote yes, for sure.

It's more exciting that way, as Ben said the mods have made some of the best work this site has seen, and no-one wants to be in competition at the exclusion of those.

The 'audience choice' award for mods film has left a bit of confusion to the actual placing too. It's an award given to a film that placed in the top 3 or 4, but after the voting has ended no-one actually knows where it place, which is half the fun :-)

The audience vote for the films anyway, so I think the award has been a little confusing.

If a mod's film wins, it should be given credit as the winning entry but equally I remember after we won twilightfest there were a few comments that hinted the top 3 films were unfair and would be very different if Jack's film was not ineligible. Which can take some of the fun out of your recently announced placing. lol...So it works both ways.

I would welcome the transparency and also for some of the best film-makers on here to be allowed back into the race.

darkrequiem1134
11-24-2009, 03:51 AM
i think it would be ok if they entered. obviously as long as they wouldn't be involved in the judging in any way what so ever.

Richard J. Johnson
11-24-2009, 04:58 AM
I'm with MAH on this one. Cheating and DVXuser Mods should not even be in the same sentence. I would love to see their work but in exhibition only. I watch all of those as well as do many others.

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 06:10 AM
I am happy with them being involved... But, who is going to give a mod, or temporarily in 'Hiatus' Mod, truthful negative feedback on their film???

jasonthewho
11-24-2009, 06:37 AM
I am happy with them being involved... But, who is going to give a mod, or temporarily in 'Hiatus' Mod, truthful negative feedback on their film???


Me. I'm not scared. Bring it on mods. No mercy.

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 06:41 AM
Same here Jason, but I can see some people being intimidated, and thus diluting their comments.

Luis Caffesse
11-24-2009, 06:57 AM
But, who is going to give a mod, or temporarily in 'Hiatus' Mod, truthful negative feedback on their film???

Having taken part in a past fest I can tell you that this community has no problem giving honest and constructive feedback to anyone on here - regardless of whether or not they're a mod.
:thumbsup:

Richard J. Johnson
11-24-2009, 07:12 AM
One thing for sure the mods HAVE to bring the heat.:violent5:
If everyone follows the general rule of respectful critcism (if needed) then commenting on films that mods direct should not be an issue. and we should not have any problems expressing our opinons.

truthfully I can't see one of Zak's or Luis' films stinking up the place.:Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

Zim
11-24-2009, 07:36 AM
If they are mods at the time of the fest then I'd say no. It would be like having the judges from American Idol also be contestants. It would just look bad. But if they want to make a film and step down during the time of the fest then afterwards be mods again I think it would be ok.

ZazaCast
11-24-2009, 09:09 AM
Let me try to word this right...please, no offence to anyone (or thing). Please note when I refer to judges, I mean all of us as well as the celebrity judges.

I wonder why this is just being proposed? Could it be because moving forward there will probably be celebrity judges and prizes that include free placement in other well-known festivals? Talk about slippery slopes.

Example... JDS (God love him and his work... I know I do) was the one setting-up these great prizes and rewards. Now, if he decides to enter a film in a future fest, do you think he might get preferential treatment from the judges he knows and helped to get onboard? Is it a possiblity?

Zak Forsman (God loves him too...he told me so) is a professional in the industry. His name, as well as his company Sabi is well advertised, if you don't agree google him (wow). Would this alter the judges views?

Don't even get me started on Barry Green, Jarred Land, Neil Rowe, Luis Caffesse and all the other talented moderators!

I also wonder how this would affect the viewing, commenting and rating of all the other films by 'Joe Blow' individuals like myself? This is the most valuable aspect of the fests for me as I try to learn the art of good filmmaking. As it is now, it seems a lot of people just view, comment and vote on a limited number of films. I remember reading some comments regarding the lack of comments/critiques seeing that there were over 2000 downloads of the films. A lot of the lesser known filmmakers and first-time entries get overlooked and they are the ones who can benefit the most from the feedback.

If a mod wants to enter a film (...and I wish more would) there shouldn't be any problem with it having an exhibition status. They can learn what the audience liked and disliked, tweak it and enter it in other festivals for prizes. This is a great testing ground for them. If they want to enter for prizes, just resign as a moderator and all is well...make sense?

I guess my point is...like any other venture that offers prizes, employees and family of employees are not eligiable. There's a reason they do that and I'd hate to see DVXuser suffer because of this change.

If it ain't broke....don't fix it. If a mod want to enter a film, resign, we'll all still love you!


...let the thrashing begin....

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 09:21 AM
Very well put Zaza...
For once :thumbsup:

Zim
11-24-2009, 09:32 AM
Yes well said Zaza.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 09:35 AM
the whole point is that Jack would NOT be involved in setting up the judges.
He would not have a 1 up in ANY way other than his more than proficient film making skillzzzz.

As far as being scared of Zak's reputation, I hope this fest does grow bigger. I hope people we have heard of in the industry take the time to make short films for a free internet festival. How cool would it be if Jon Favreau (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0269463/) took a day off of IRON MAN 1VX and made an entry? God forbid one of us regulars makes it big, would that make us ineligible?
(http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0269463/)

Rodney V. Smith
11-24-2009, 09:35 AM
I've actually been mulling this over and have to agree with Zaza as well as share some of my thoughts on active MOD involvement.

Only SOME of us will spare no mercy when it comes to commenting on a film by one of the Mods. It's as it should be. If you disagree with something or have a thought then there should be no fear of being censored or having some of your comments deleted because of some disagreement. Don't take this the wrong way guys, I'm trying to be diplomatic here, but as it stands the very ACT of a Mod making a comment on a particular thread colors the perception of that film from the moment a comment is made. More people seem to weigh in on a film that a Mod has commented on and this is especially since most if not all of the other films are ignored.

Now take that and apply it to a film by one of the mods and I'm sure the other mods will chime in.

It doesn't matter how fair it is or even how transparent the voting is. The voting public's perceptions are already colored by the fact that one of the Mods who they respect and admire are competing against them and they already want to like the film regardless.

While the sentiment is a nice one, it's simply one that only works in theory. Any film from a moderator on the board should be given an exhibition status only. That's the only proper way to do things and remain fair.

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 09:40 AM
Nicely put, Rodders.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 09:40 AM
So you're saying mods should not even comment on films?

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 09:43 AM
I hope it's cool that I post some personal thoughts here... Here's where i get tripped up... thanks for the kind words, btw, zaza....

I know it SHOULD be just about getting feedback. But if I were to be honest with myself, it's not quite enough of a motivator to participate. When i was invited to be a mod, the first thing I said to Jason was that it'd be really hard to sacrifice future competitive involvement in DVXFests. My first film did okay, my second came in third and I was really, really, really hoping to one day pulling out all the stops and winning the whole enchilada. Not for the prizes – the prizes don't have anything to do with it, but I must admit that the potential to take first place with what most would consider "an art-house film" is what motivated me to enter in the past.

So I was pleasantly surprised the other day when Jason pulled this 'hiatus' thing out of the blue – and then instantly crushed when I realized it couldn't apply to BetrayalFest. Love, Loss, Betrayal – these are the themes that really inspire me. I'm just being completely honest, but exhibition status doesn't do it for me. What's missing is the rollercoaster ride of competing in the fest. It can be a uniquely rewarding, painful, exciting, stressful ride. And I really miss it. I sound like a junkie, I know.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 09:45 AM
How cool would it be if Jon Favreau (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0269463/) took a day off of IRON MAN 1VX and made an entry? God forbid one of us regulars makes it big, would that make us ineligible?
Using this example.... if Universal Studios ran a film making contest Jon Favreau would be ineligible to enter. As would all of their employees.

Again... the Mods can STILL enter! Exhibition status is there and I'm sure they would still get plenty of feedback. Nobody is saying that they can't enter?
This is why the prizes get in the way.

Why not get back to making films in order to better our craft?

Mike

Rodney V. Smith
11-24-2009, 09:46 AM
So you're saying mods should not even comment on films?

The comments are nice and incisive, but unless they're commenting on every single film then it's coloring the perception of the film. In past fests the mods waited until the final round to make comments (I dunno if this was intentional) and that way they were able to spread some of the mod-love around.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 09:48 AM
but what if he temporarily fired himself? :P

Rodney V. Smith
11-24-2009, 09:49 AM
Damn Zak, and I thought I was a junkie... it's a bummer you can't compete in Betrayalfest, but there's no reason you still can;t pull out all the stops and do an exhibition film. I'm sure there are LOTS of us (me included) who are waiting to see what else you can come up with, so by all means: pull the damn stops OUT!

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 09:52 AM
Let me try to word this right...please, no offence to anyone (or thing). Please note when I refer to judges, I mean all of us as well as the celebrity judges.

I wonder why this is just being proposed? Could it be because moving forward there will probably be celebrity judges and prizes that include free placement in other well-known festivals? Talk about slippery slopes.
No. I have no idea why Jason is bringing it up. Maybe he thinks it's a shame that the guys who work for free don't get none of the swag? Dunno. There's no plans for future jurors or fests except that we'd like to do something like this again. In truth, I've spent the majority of my resources and I'm not sure how we'd do it to this extent again. This jury idea for Monster Fest was cooked up by me on the day the finalists were announced. So there is no far reaching plan.

Internet tone of voice is hard to discern so don't take this in a harsh a tone. I'm not ticked at you. True I am going to systematically dismantle your entire paradigm :) But not angrily. I just disagree with your arguments and don't like one or two of your assertions. By the end of this long dissertation I'm going to agree with you in practice. Just not so down with your argument. So .... I do think it's kinda ... not super cool maybe? to imply Jason's bringing this up now so we can screw you out of opportunities though. (before you say you're just posing hypotheticals remember you start your post with "I wonder why this is just being proposed? Could it be because moving forward there will probably be celebrity judges and prizes that include free placement in other well-known festivals?")
That's pretty cynical, and there's no kind of precedent for any behavior like that on our parts as we try to give, give, give, create, create, opps for your benefit. If that was where we were coming from - why would we have ever made mod entries exhibition only in the first place.


Example... JDS (God love him and his work... I know I do) was the one setting-up these great prizes and rewards. Now, if he decides to enter a film in a future fest, do you think he might get preferential treatment from the judges he knows and helped to get onboard? Is it a possiblity?
Yeah that would be an obvious conflict. In no instance would I allow myself to be in competition. I will say that just recently however, at a major genre festival I attended, the festival founder was an actor in the short film that one best short. Before it won I candidly told her that it shouldn't be in competition. Audience vote fine. Jury vote. No way. Fortunately the film deserved to win so I can sleep at night. At another festival recently, the guy that won BOTH the dramatic short award and the comedic short award was the student of the festival programmer, and a volunteer at the festival ... welcome to the real world.

If we did allow mods in hiatus to compete, it seems likely that they could only be eligible for the audience awards. This is something Jason likely hadn't even considered as we think of the audience vote as the primary part of DVXuser fest and the Juror vote something we try to do if we have time or have people we can tap to do it. Also those of us mods who are actively pursing festivals, don't need a leg up for first tiime festival entries, or help getting reviews. That's for you guys, so, to poke another hole in your theory, your accusing us of conspiring to steal something from you that, while very worthwhile and valuable, we already have access to. :)


Zak Forsman (God loves him too...he told me so) is a professional in the industry. His name, as well as his company Sabi is well advertised, if you don't agree google him (wow). Would this alter the judges views?

Don't even get me started on Barry Green, Jarred Land, Neil Rowe, Luis Caffesse and all the other talented moderators!
So you are saying Zak should be penalized for having a succesful business in the industry? I'm all for restricint mod participation (anyon's participation) due to potential or even just percieved neoptism. But are you saying that people should be barred from entry for their awesomeness? Awesome-potism? That's kind of like saying you'd like to keep the training wheels on. When I was in the Delt Airlines online comeptition, I showed up with my basic cable game show host cast member, and my indie horor film star from a few years back and thought my biggest competition would be the animated film of a chubby bulldog tyring to get adopted at the pound while cute younger dogs were only getting selected. How could that lose right? I mean the little guy danced and wiggled. And we were all trounced by a small scene starring a heart throb form the O.C. and the lead in a New NBC Crime Drama. Did I get to say "no fair they have a bigger star than I do and there's tons of internet boards talking about how cute his dimples are with teenage girls saying I'm gonna go vote again'". Well I could say that but who cares? You may not like it. But that don't mean it ain't fair. If we have a non-mod, celebrity filmmaker who wants to participate in the fest should we not let him? We might not actually. We might suggest he's only elligible for Audience fav. Because we do want to create a kind of incubator world for you. But I think it's ridiculous to bar succesful industry people who are not famous to your parents or the local head coach.


I also wonder how this would affect the viewing, commenting and rating of all the other films by 'Joe Blow' individuals like myself? This is the most valuable aspect of the fests for me as I try to learn the art of good filmmaking. As it is now, it seems a lot of people just view, comment and vote on a limited number of films. I remember reading some comments regarding the lack of comments/critiques seeing that there were over 2000 downloads of the films. A lot of the lesser known filmmakers and first-time entries get overlooked and they are the ones who can benefit the most from the feedback.
Again this is kind of kiddie pool talk. Make a good film. Market it well. Show austentacious pictures of your crew meeting at hooters. You'll get views. On this I'll flatly reject the validity of this because - if you can't get views and comments in your threads here - good luck at a real world festival. Where you are competing for audience against films staring Michael Cera. This is part of the competition and an important part for you all to conquer. If you want more views and comments - go get them.


If a mod wants to enter a film (...and I wish more would) there shouldn't be any problem with it having an exhibition status. They can learn what the audience liked and disliked, tweak it and enter it in other festivals for prizes. This is a great testing ground for them. If they want to enter for prizes, just resign as a moderator and all is well...make sense?
This would solve the issues you address how? If I resign as a mod, won't the jury still know me? If Zak resigns as a mod won't he still be the shiznit in the industry? If Barry or Jason resigns as mods, won't they still have been those well known super cool mods 2 months ago and still have the stink of that status on them? Ridiculous logic.


I guess my point is...like any other venture that offers prizes, employees and family of employees are not eligiable. There's a reason they do that and I'd hate to see DVXuser suffer because of this change.

If it ain't broke....don't fix it. If a mod want to enter a film, resign, we'll all still love you!


...let the thrashing begin....
Yeah you make a good point, your 2nd in your post. There's a reason those companies say employees not elligible. But if you have no access to planning the fest, moderating it, or tallying the votes how can you have sway - well the obvious answer is your buddies are still running the place.

So I would vote NO. Hmmm there goes that theory of Jason posting this at my suggestion so that I could get entry int festivals I've already played! (sound ominous organ chord) But I vote no solely for the necessary appearance of propriety and because people are already suggesting outrageous conspiracies that really don't even hold up. So imagine what would occur if we implemented this.

Yes we are being penalized for volunteering our time, contacts, knowledge, but hey, somebodies got to do it. :thumbsup:

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 09:59 AM
but what if he temporarily fired himself? :P
Exactly! See how funny that sounds? How it looks? :huh:

You guys will ultimately go with what you feel is best. I just think that it would look quite odd.
If you are going to go ahead with it and allow Mods to compete for prizes then just forget about the hiatus thing.
Since in the end it doesn't really mean anything and just looks silly. At least to me it would.
Either allow it or don't. Keep it simple.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 10:01 AM
This is much more an issue of perception than anything else. And it depends on where the fests want to go.

We all know the mods. It's a pretty tight community. And I'm confident they wouldn't be doing any shenanigans behind the scenes that would actually require them to forego participation as filmmakers. And personally, I don't feel like there's anyone on the board I can't at least compete with in these fests. Meaning, I don't feel intimidated if say Barry and Jack step in, or if Jason comes in again, or whatever.

But if the intention is to grow these in to larger enterprises, like "real" festivals, there is no question that employees or mods or whatever should not enter films.

Like I said, it's a matter of perception. No matter what you do, the fests would be tainted in peoples' eyes and not taken seriously.

I think the hiatus is a fine idea. I guess I see the point in making them wait, but I mean I also think it's fine for a mod to step down for THIS fest, and just have nothing to do with the fest as a mod.

So I would suggest, since this is the first time trying this, that we have the hiatus, but NOT make them wait till next fest.

Oh yeah, and no Australians.

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 10:02 AM
I had to take a hiatus to read Jack's whole post. Whew!

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:02 AM
I vote yes, for sure.

It's more exciting that way, as Ben said the mods have made some of the best work this site has seen, and no-one wants to be in competition at the exclusion of those.

The 'audience choice' award for mods film has left a bit of confusion to the actual placing too. It's an award given to a film that placed in the top 3 or 4, but after the voting has ended no-one actually knows where it place, which is half the fun :-)

The audience vote for the films anyway, so I think the award has been a little confusing.

If a mod's film wins, it should be given credit as the winning entry but equally I remember after we won twilightfest there were a few comments that hinted the top 3 films were unfair and would be very different if Jack's film was not ineligible. Which can take some of the fun out of your recently announced placing. lol...So it works both ways.

I would welcome the transparency and also for some of the best film-makers on here to be allowed back into the race.

Let's clear one thing up. You won Twilight Fest. Based on Audience votes I was second. This problem of the win being less satisfying because you don't know if there was a guy out there who beat you will likely solve itself because I think Jason will continue to post the finalists rankings or at least the top 3 through 6 or so maybe. So you can see if a mod places higher or lower than you in ratings, even though he'd be knocked out of official placing due to his mod status.

MY SUGGESTION:
Keep Mod Films Exhibition Only. Allow them to be rated. If they place in the top 4 or so in the Audience Vote, they get a "AUDIENCE FAVORITE" award, which recgonizes the film was good, gives us a laurel (maybe even more valuable than an actual screening or review) and takes nothing away from the member. The members get the advantage of knowing how they stack up against what some have suggested is tough competition and they know how they actually placed, they get the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place laurel, they get the prizes.

Simillarlly, if we have jurors, mods that place in the top 4 or so could be elligible for "special jury mention". But no prizes, festival screening slots, reviews optional but not at the expense of the top three. So again, our film gets recognized. Everyone knows the actual placement, no places or laurels are taken from the members, no screening slots or opportunities are taken from the members.

SUB SUGGESTION:
Mods could enter anonymously, but still only be elligible for Audience Favorite (which we should change to Audience Award maybe as it is not always THE favorite) and elligible for SPECIAL JURY MENTION but not actual places. So the mod would get feedback, it wouldn't be widely known who they are (some people always know or can guess, but this still cust down on a lot of the issues of notoriety), and things would be more interesting until the final reveal of the winners, etc.

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 10:05 AM
Oh yeah, on prizes. I think the biggest prize we ever had was the HVX in HorrorFest. that would be like giving us a Scarlet now. THAT would be a motivating prize.

The prizes since have all been fantastic and beneficial to the filmmakers, but to me they are more gravy than anything else. I enter these to continue building my library of work and having a deadline to work toward.

And actually, if I know Jack is in, or Zak, or Fat Monster, I'm going to work harder, cause I know I gotta represent.

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 10:05 AM
It's not just the feedback, it's the whole ride of different emotions that partaking as a contestant offers. It's going all out on your idea and hoping deep down, it resonates at just the right tone for the crowd and you find yourself getting first place. I think it's horribly wrong to say 'no' to moderators and not let them partake in this experience... especially after the majority of them pour a ton of hard work into making these fests happen in the first place.

Not to pick on you, Mike... but I can't ignore this line...



Why not get back to making films in order to better our craft?

Exactly. Does the factor of having mods enter films affect this? I don't think so. And entering as exhibition only doesn't offer up half the fest experience as when you're competing. I know this. I've had two non-competes in the past. It's very different.

And I don't think it's so much as prizes in a tangible sense as it is the respect and acknowledgment by a group of peers on voting your film #1. That's what everyone is truly gunning for IMO and it's a worthy fight.

I personally don't even think they should have to drop their mod status! I would trust that they'd avoid partaking in mod related discussions regarding the voting status and anything that might be construed as 'having an upper hand'. Anyone worth their salt doesn't want a tainted win. I think they should be allowed to partake in Betrayal Fest even though this is coming up now.

More good films = better fest experience/exposure and opportunities for advancement.

Furthermore, to say 'no' to someone for taking part in the WHOLE fest experience... what kind of message does that send? It truly saddens me to think I could be depriving someone of that creative turmoil that exists when competing. It's flat out wrong.

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 10:06 AM
I had to take a hiatus to read Jack's whole post. Whew!

haha! el oh el oh el oh el oh el :)

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 10:08 AM
I guess the question I have about this is what's the point? Is it to avoid the image of impropriety, or to say: "If the mods enter, it's no contest, so we shouldn't let them come in and take all the candy?"

I hope it's not the latter. Because I would find that highly offensive.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:08 AM
...

But if the intention is to grow these in to larger enterprises, like "real" festivals, there is no question that employees or mods or whatever should not enter films.

Like I said, it's a matter of perception. No matter what you do, the fests would be tainted in peoples' eyes and not taken seriously.

I think the hiatus is a fine idea. ...
I think as MAH points out, that due to pereption, our buddies would still be at the wheel, and we'd be coming back to "office" shortly after the hiatus. So it would still be the same perception issue of the festival volunteer / student of the festival founder winning, or the case of the festival founder appearing in the winning film from my recent offline festival experiences.

Rodney V. Smith
11-24-2009, 10:11 AM
I guess the question I have about this is what's the point? Is it to avoid the image of impropriety, or to say: "If the mods enter, it's no contest, so we shouldn't let them come in and take all the candy?"

I hope it's not the latter. Because I would find that highly offensive.

That is highly offensive. Anyone of us can take on the Mods. We're all filmmakers here, it's just a matter of gettign the right combination together, but starting with a story that resonates. The rest of it is just getting the voting members to actually WATCH your film and rate.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:11 AM
I guess the question I have about this is what's the point? Is it to avoid the image of impropriety, or to say: "If the mods enter, it's no contest, so we shouldn't let them come in and take all the candy?"

I hope it's not the latter. Because I would find that highly offensive.
Lets take the "we'd just be beating up on the special kids" argument off the table. I got 2nd in Twilight Fest - not first and any win I've gotten or other mods have gotten before moddum or before the exhibition only rule was by the narrowest of margins, tenths of a point. Obviously a few of the mods are competitive. Obviously their are plenty of members like yourself, MAH, Darkline that are cause for new underwear when one hears you'll be entering the fest.

There are, in fact, waaaay more members that are highly competitive than there are not only highly competitive mods but active mods altogether.

This should 100% be about whether it will give the appearance of impropriety or actually create an unfair situation, due to some administrative advantage or inside knowledge.

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 10:11 AM
I think as MAH points out, that due to pereption, our buddies would still be at the wheel, and we'd be coming back to "office" shortly after the hiatus. So it would still be the same perception issue of the festival volunteer / student of the festival founder winning, or the case of the festival founder appearing in the winning film from my recent offline festival experiences.

Yeah, I guess so. But in the case of this fest and all fests, the buddy system is unavoidable. I'm buddies with several mods and you mo-fos never helped me win.

You guys suck.

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 10:12 AM
Lets take the "we'd just be beating up on the special kids" argument off the table. I got 2nd in Twilight Fest - not first. Obviously a few of the mods are competitive. Obviously their are plenty of members like yourself, MAH, Darkline that are cause for new underwear when one hears you'll be entering the fest.

This should 100% be about whether it will give the appearance of impropriety.

Yeah, I figured, just clarifying.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 10:13 AM
The rest of it is just getting the voting members to actually WATCH your film and rate.
If you have a good film in this festival people will watch it.
You're getting over 2,000 views on your film! The good stuff always rises to the top.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 10:16 AM
I'm buddies with several mods and you mo-fos never helped me win.

You guys suck.

How good of buddies are you Mike? Maybe they're just pretending.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:16 AM
Yeah, I figured, just clarifying.
Even though I'd totally kick your ass :)

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:17 AM
How good of buddies are you Mike? Maybe they're just pretending.
Mike and I are great buddies.

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 10:17 AM
Sarcasm.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 10:18 AM
More good films = better fest experience/exposure and opportunities for advancement.

Furthermore, to say 'no' to someone for taking part in the WHOLE fest experience... what kind of message does that send? It truly saddens me to think I could be depriving someone of that creative turmoil that exists when competing. It's flat out wrong.I agree. Luckily I see nobody asking for this. Mods can still enter and compete for 'audience choice' as JDS pointed out and still be the best film of the lot if it's meant to be.

My wife has a contest going on at her work right now and I can't enter just because I'm her spouse. I don't even work there. :huh:

I say whatever is decided just please keep it simple.

And I would just like to touch on what Mark said about the prizes. Another mans gravy is another mans meal. :)

And Mark, it's about the impropriety. I think that's been pointed said over and over again throughout the thread.


Mike

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 10:20 AM
This should 100% be about whether it will give the appearance of impropriety.

we probably shouldn't even work on the films, right? if I were to show up on the set of Geoff Reisner's next effort and maybe AD the shoot, I'm going to bond with those guys and root for them to do well in the fest because i'm personally invested. which would set off a red flag for potential for impropriety. if he came in first, someone could say "wait a second, his AD is a moderator on the site!"

where do we draw the line? can we read scripts and give feedback that could shape the story? probably not.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:20 AM
Sarcasm.
I was kidding you because you quoted Mark and called him Mike. :)

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 10:22 AM
Obviously a few of the mods are competitive. Obviously their are plenty of members like yourself, MAH, Darkline that are cause for new underwear when one hears you'll be entering the fest.
I haven't stolen a prize once! But I love that you placed me in that group of filmmakers. Where's the blush smiley? :)

Matty_g
11-24-2009, 10:23 AM
I was kidding you because you quoted Mark and called him Mike. :)

i .. ugh.... totally knew that.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:25 AM
we probably shouldn't even work on the films, right? if I were to show up on the set of Geoff Reisner's next effort and maybe AD the shoot, I'm going to bond with those guys and root for them to do well in the fest because i'm personally invested. which would set off a red flag for the potential for impropriety.
Well I think we have to find a balance between the community thing we have going here and us being in charge.

If we really take it to the full extent, then we have to stop being friends with Geoff and FM, Mark Harris etc, because we're already invested for them to do well. But obviously thats not gonna happen.

So I would just draw the line at the actual mod films being elligible for prizes and official places. The image of propriety thing is for the outside world as the fest grows.

But damn, that is a vexing point you bring up Zak. Should 02 not have been ineligible for Time Fest winning (that was before we had a no mod in competition rule) But I did art direction and co-wrote it. So would it be ineligible now? Man that would suck to not be able to answer the call to help out on a FM set, or your set or Harris's set. Damn. I would say no if you we were a principle collaborator, like co-writer or DP?, but yes if we were sound or camera op. But dang that's a tangle.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 10:27 AM
Man that would suck to not be able to answer the call to help out on a FM set, or your set or Mark H.'s set. Damn.Just make them Mods.



Just kidding!! :beer:

The Dude abides.

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 10:30 AM
I'd prefer the mods gets the same opportunities as the rest of us. Exhibition only is sometimes overlooked or just not rated the same because it's perceived as not being in the actual competition. Even the slightest misconception here knocks their vote off kilter. They should also be eligible for prizes considering their efforts are the only reason there have been and will ever be prizes in the future.

As it's been proven, there are a huge number of people voting on the films... from the community pov, it'd be very difficult for a mod to sway a vote one way or another. The cream always rises to the top. They aren't going to get special brownie points for their mod status. If anything, people might hold them to a HIGHER standard and vote them lower if they don't meet their expectations. I could see that happening much more than someone voting them higher 'just because they're a mod'... perhaps having mod status would potentially affect their vote in a negative way!

And I think it's silly to assume there is some buddy system at work or that mods would vote each other higher or influence other people. Sorry, just ain't gonna happen. Our votes are anonymous so there's no need to worry about 'offending' your buddy. Furthermore... you'd have to have a heck of a lot of friends to have an effect on such a large voting pool. It wouldn't work... if they made a mediocre film... it'd be beat out by the better film. That's what's so great about having the large voting pool and the second round system!

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 10:30 AM
Well I think we have to find a balance between the community thing we have going here and us being in charge.

If we really take it to the full extent, then we have to stop being friends with Geoff and FM, Mark etc, because we're already invested for them to do well. But obviously thats not gonna happen.

So I would just draw the line at the actual mods being elligible for prizes and official places. The image of propriety thing is for the outside world as the fest grows.

But damn, that is a vexing point you bring up Zak. Should 02 not have been ineligible for Time Fest winning (that was before we had a no mod in competition rule) But I did art direction and co-wrote it. So would it be ineligible now? Man that would suck to not be able to answer the call to help out on a FM set, or your set or Harris's set. Damn. I would say no if you we were a principle collaborator, like co-writer or DP?, but yes if we were sound or camera op. But dang that's a tangle.


yeah as you said, the flip side to that is could a member submit a film that they enlisted a mod to write and direct? It would remove the moderator from being the person to benefit from "prizes" but allow a film they directed to play in competition.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:31 AM
I haven't stolen a prize once! But I love that you placed me in that group of filmmakers. Where's the blush smiley? :)But you've been at the top of the heap, and the top few slots are always so close. Except for once. Oh SIMILO we hardly knew ye.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 10:36 AM
I think Geoff's post brings up a good point - these are member votes and juror votes. We're not actually picking the winners. So if it isn't "our film", I don't think helping on set would influence either category of voter, or look bad to the outside world. Maybe it would look an eensy bit bad, like 4% bad, but to strike that balance of community and appearance of propriety as the fest grows, that sounds acceptable, and not likely to even be noticed by anyone.

I do think if we wrote, directed, DP'ed, edited, or scored then that would be Exhibition Status. We might make a list of specific crew positions? that would prohibit competition status unless the mod was in hiatus for the necessary period (if we go that way), or would make it exhibition?

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 10:49 AM
I could see that happening much more than someone voting them higher 'just because they're a mod'... perhaps having mod status would potentially affect their vote in a negative way!

Agreed. Then it could also go the other way, no? Double edged sword.

This is really derailing things a bit though. It's not about being fair or unfair. It's about how it looks and how other Festivals usually don't allow for such things to occur.
And when they do... they get that, Hmmmm.... look. :huh:

I think JDS had it right, if I read it correctly. Allow them to compete. Give them 'Audience Choice' awards and honest placements amongst the rest of the field.
And allow them to get into other festivals along with the regular top 3 if they ever go that route again. If they place high enough.

M

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 10:49 AM
What if the mods were just ineligible for mod-related prizes? In the past you've had special mod awards you've granted... maybe those are only up for regular members... but I feel mods should still be allowed competition status and have access to any member/user prizes that might be up for grabs.

Stephen Mick
11-24-2009, 10:55 AM
I don't mean to oversimplify my position on this too much, but here's my take.

I know a couple of the mods, and I know how much of their time and effort goes into making this site what it is. All they get in return is a yellow glow on their user name, and the adoration of the collective DVXUser.

To not allow them to participate fully, in my mind, is penalizing them for the thankless tasks for which they get little reward.

So, I say, let them participate, and let everyone's talent get the attention it deserves.

Except Luis. He's a jackass.

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Agreed. Then it could also go the other way, no? Double edged sword.

I almost hesitated to bring that up... I think it'd be extremely limited either way to such a fine degree that it'd be imperceptible. But I'd more so view it as a crutch because with higher expectations, your film has to work harder to meet those expectations. We see this all the time with movies or filmmakers we like... if they don't meet our goals (which are typically higher), we're let down more easily.

This could even apply to some people (non-mods) on these boards... You've seen their prior work so you expect certain things. Could again be a double-edge sword... maybe it's typically high-caliber and it doesn't deliver, so you sub-consciously rate lower... or their work is typically mediocre and all of a sudden it's something much better, so you sub-consciously rate higher...

No matter what. It's all impossible to determine (very tiny numbers) and rather pointless at the same time. Which is all the more why I feel mods should be allowed to compete just as regular members because in the end, the community itself will have spoken and the top films will fall wherever they'll fall, regardless of the history of their creator.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 10:57 AM
What if the mods were just ineligible for mod-related prizes? In the past you've had special mod awards you've granted... maybe those are only up for regular members... but I feel mods should still be allowed competition status and have access to any member/user prizes that might be up for grabs.We're going in circles. They would still get a lot out of this, just not monetary prizes.

We obviously disagree on how this looks to the public and other festivals.

Like I said before, run it any way that you like. I'm still entering and having fun.

:beer:

Cheers,

Mike

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 11:03 AM
I don't mean to oversimplify my position on this too much, but here's my take.

I know a couple of the mods, and I know how much of their time and effort goes into making this site what it is. All they get in return is a yellow glow on their user name, and the adoration of the collective DVXUser.

To not allow them to participate fully, in my mind, is penalizing them for the thankless tasks for which they get little reward.

So, I say, let them participate, and let everyone's talent get the attention it deserves.

Except Luis. He's a jackass.I moderate a very large forum. www.avsforum.com (http://www.avsforum.com) Almost 800,000 members.

I've been a MOD there much longer then I have been a Member here. We don't get perks and all of our time is volunteered.
They have contests and giveaways on occasion and we are ineligible. I've never received a gift or a prize of any kind.
That's not why I do it.

MAH

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 11:03 AM
One last point on the topic of other festivals and how this looks to the public because it's been mentioned earlier in this thread that this isn't how other festivals do it.

Do these other festivals have all the people in attendance filling out ballot cards and submitting their scores? Most of them probably don't. Perhaps a few do... but I think the majority of these are decided by a panel/jury. This would relevant to discussion if the mods and a jury were the ones selecting the top entries.

Zim
11-24-2009, 11:11 AM
I would be pissed if I finally broke the top 40 and got bumped back to 41 because of a mod!!. LOL.

You guys just work it out and I'll go back to thinking of a idea to break that top 40.

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 11:11 AM
yes, most festivals have a jury that determines film and performance awards. I've attended festivals that also hand out ballots for an audience award. but even that can be suspect. the beverly hills film festival for example, takes the ballot results "into consideration" before deciding who the audience award goes to. the year i attended, it went to the filmmakers who happened to be sitting at the festival programmer's table.

so I don't think looking to outside festivals is a good way to model what we want to have here. impropriety and favoritism and behind the scenes wheeling and dealing is rampant in the real world.

still, it's so discouraging that I can't compete in DVXFest anymore. :( I've directed one feature and two shorts in my life and both shorts started their life in a DVXFest. for someone who "grew up here", it's like being put in purgatory, haha!

I suppose if a mod were still eligible for an Audience Award, that could be enough of a motivator. probably wouldn't even need to go on hiatus to be eligible for that, right? And to someone unfamiliar with DVXFest, that kind of laurel probably DOES carry more prestige when taken outside this amazing community.

ZazaCast
11-24-2009, 11:12 AM
Frickin' A... you would have to be long-winded!:)
Here goes....


No. I have no idea why Jason is bringing it up. Maybe he thinks it's a shame that the guys who work for free don't get none of the swag? Dunno.
But don't we ALL work for free here sharing information and knowledge? You guys get the benefit of the mod forum and being able to help shape the forum in general..that's a great payment in my book. I'm sure you get satisfaction from helping your fellow filmmakers. I know I appreciate all you guys do. Can't even put a price on the value of the vast knowledge shared here.



There's no plans for future jurors or fests except that we'd like to do something like this again. In truth, I've spent the majority of my resources and I'm not sure how we'd do it to this extent again. This jury idea for Monster Fest was cooked up by me on the day the finalists were announced. So there is no far reaching plan.
I'm sure the celeb judges would love to be involved again. It's a win/win for them as I'm sure I'm not the only one to now visit their sites, etc...


I do think it's kinda ... not super cool maybe? to imply Jason's bringing this up now so we can screw you out of opportunities though. (before you say you're just posing hypotheticals remember you start your post with "I wonder why this is just being proposed? Could it be because moving forward there will probably be celebrity judges and prizes that include free placement in other well-known festivals?")
That's pretty cynical, and there's no kind of precedent for any behavior like that on our parts as we try to give, give, give, create, create, opps for your benefit. If that was where we were coming from - why would we have ever made mod entries exhibition only in the first place.
That is most certainly NOT where I'm coming from. Timing is everything and you must admit... this is being proposed to the general forum at an interesting time. I'm just playing devils advocate and encourging thought and conversation on the subject.



Yeah that would be an obvious conflict. In no instance would I allow myself to be in competition. I will say that just recently however, at a major genre festival I attended, the festival founder was an actor in the short film that one best short. Before it won I candidly told her that it shouldn't be in competition. Audience vote fine. Jury vote. No way. Fortunately the film deserved to win so I can sleep at night. At another festival recently, the guy that won BOTH the dramatic short award and the comedic short award was the student of the festival programmer, and a volunteer at the festival ... welcome to the real world.
Yes, the real world is harsh, but this is our world and as a community we can learn from others and make this forum better. Now, I'm sure those incidents left a sour taste in your mouth...even if they did deserve to win.


If we did allow mods in hiatus to compete, it seems likely that they could only be eligible for the audience awards.
This is something Jason likely hadn't even considered as we think of the audience vote as the primary part of DVXuser fest and the Juror vote something we try to do if we have time or have people we can tap to do it. Also those of us mods who are actively pursing festivals, don't need a leg up for first tiime festival entries, or help getting reviews. That's for you guys, so, to poke another hole in your theory, your accusing us of conspiring to steal something from you that, while very worthwhile and valuable, we already have access to. :)
I would agree, but I'm not a mindreader and there was no mention of a audience award only in Jason's post. Love this idea and was going to suggest it in a future post... but you beat me to it!:beer:



So you are saying Zak should be penalized for having a succesful business in the industry? I'm all for restricint mod participation (anyon's participation) due to potential or even just percieved neoptism. But are you saying that people should be barred from entry for their awesomeness? Awesome-potism? That's kind of like saying you'd like to keep the training wheels on. When I was in the Delt Airlines online comeptition, I showed up with my basic cable game show host cast member, and my indie horor film star from a few years back and thought my biggest competition would be the animated film of a chubby bulldog tyring to get adopted at the pound while cute younger dogs were only getting selected. How could that lose right? I mean the little guy danced and wiggled. And we were all trounced by a small scene starring a heart throb form the O.C. and the lead in a New NBC Crime Drama. Did I get to say "no fair they have a bigger star than I do and there's tons of internet boards talking about how cute his dimples are with teenage girls saying I'm gonna go vote again'". Well I could say that but who cares? You may not like it. But that don't mean it ain't fair. If we have a non-mod, celebrity filmmaker who wants to participate in the fest should we not let him? We might not actually. We might suggest he's only elligible for Audience fav. Because we do want to create a kind of incubator world for you. But I think it's ridiculous to bar succesful industry people who are not famous to your parents or the local head coach.
It's not a question of his success... it's a because he's a mod. That's what we're talking about. All he would have to do is resign as a mod and he can enter as many fests as he'd like. Look at FM and many others. They make killer films, but there's no problem with them entering the fests. It's the idea of someone involved behind the scenes being able to enter for prizes. Perception is everything.


Again this is kind of kiddie pool talk. Make a good film. Market it well. Show austentacious pictures of your crew meeting at hooters. You'll get views. On this I'll flatly reject the validity of this because - if you can't get views and comments in your threads here - good luck at a real world festival. Where you are competing for audience against films staring Michael Cera. This is part of the competition and an important part for you all to conquer. If you want more views and comments - go get them. I totally agree! I had just read a post refering to the lack of comments and posted the question to see what others thought.


This would solve the issues you address how? If I resign as a mod, won't the jury still know me? If Zak resigns as a mod won't he still be the shiznit in the industry? If Barry or Jason resigns as mods, won't they still have been those well known super cool mods 2 months ago and still have the stink of that status on them? Ridiculous logic. Yes...and no. Granted, we're all still going to have our friends, but at least it's a level playing field. Again, preception. If they resigned, they would just be another member of the forum...just like FM...and they can certainly continue to contribute valuable knowledge to the community. Something I'm very thankful for.



Yeah you make a good point, your 2nd in your post. There's a reason those companies say employees not elligible. But if you have no access to planning the fest, moderating it, or tallying the votes how can you have sway - well the obvious answer is your buddies are still running the place.

So I would vote NO. Hmmm there goes that theory of Jason posting this at my suggestion so that I could get entry int festivals I've already played! (sound ominous organ chord) But I vote no solely for the necessary appearance of propriety and because people are already suggesting outrageous conspiracies that really don't even hold up. So imagine what would occur if we implemented this. I never suggested YOU asked Jason to make the post....nor would I ever entertain the thought. I go back to the timing of the post.


Yes we are being penalized for volunteering our time, contacts, knowledge, but hey, somebodies got to do it. :thumbsup: I would think all of us are here to help others in this crazy, harsh world. I hope you all know how appreciated you are? I see posts thanking you guys for everything you do. You are ALL the most valuable assets to the forum. Most of the time the best things we do in life benefit others more than ourselves. That in itself is worth much more than any payment could be. I consider myself lucky to have found this forum and have the opportunity to share the limited knowledge I have with others. Yes, in the 'real world' I get paid for my knowledge and experience, it's how I make a living, but that doesn't stop me from trying to help others any way I can. Our time is short here and personally, I want to give back before I'm gone and hopefully instill the same traits in my children.

Again, I'm sorry if I ruffled any feathers, it was unintentional. Love the forum, love the mods, love the community. :beer:

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 11:14 AM
I suppose if a mod were still eligible for an Audience Award, that could be enough of a motivator. probably wouldn't even need to go on hiatus to be eligible for that, right? And to someone unfamiliar with DVXFest, that kind of laurel probably DOES carry more prestige when taken outside this amazing community.
Agreed 100%

Rodney V. Smith
11-24-2009, 11:18 AM
I suppose if a mod were still eligible for an Audience Award, that could be enough of a motivator. probably wouldn't even need to go on hiatus to be eligible for that, right? And to someone unfamiliar with DVXFest, that kind of laurel probably DOES carry more prestige when taken outside this amazing community.

Agreed. So say we all!

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 11:21 AM
I hope people are reading through this before voicing their opinion in the vote. IMO, this is a very big topic and perhaps bigger than some people realize. We're talking about the growth and expansion of this festival. I think all of us would love to see it grow larger and more prominent over time. It'd be great to see some established industry filmmakers come out and make entries in the future. Imagine if Tony Scott threw a short film together for fun or a well-known A-list actor? Imagine competing against someone of that caliber, it's exciting. That's what makes the competition what it is... good fun against other filmmakers you respect. It's human nature to want to compete. When you're having a barbecue and playing some basketball for fun, you know that deep down, everyone is keeping score :)

Being exhibition only is just not the same at all... It's like playing on a separate court from the rest of the players. The moment we start placing these kinds of restrictions is the moment the fest plateaus and grows no further. It sets a precedent... once you're considered too big or too successful... you can't compete in the festivals. This weakens the competition... therefore weakening what it takes to win... therefore weakening the overall appearance of the festival. With each passing cycle, the films will slowly but surely become less and less interesting.

I think this is a very critical point in the life of the festivals and what they represent. I think one path (where mods and anyone, regardless of status can make films) leads towards a better future with growth, opportunity and better films, whereas the other leads to the inevitable slow death of the fests. Call me dramatic but I honestly feel this way. Maybe it takes three or five years but as the competition thins, so will the interest... so will the prizes... so will the clout and respect a win carries... (and repeat... and repeat...) I think it will happen and this could very well be the cause.

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 11:29 AM
I don't think blocking people from entering is the way at all. The better the filmmaker the better the level of films, thet they should create.
I don't know how or if it would work, but let's think of golf for a moment. A great golfer has no handicap, but and inexperienced one has a large handicap. Maybe the handicap system would work in our case, when dealing with professionals and amateurs.
Just thought I would throw it in there!

Zim
11-24-2009, 11:34 AM
That is a good idea Zak.




I suppose if a mod were still eligible for an Audience Award, that could be enough of a motivator. probably wouldn't even need to go on hiatus to be eligible for that, right? And to someone unfamiliar with DVXFest, that kind of laurel probably DOES carry more prestige when taken outside this amazing community.

Noel Evans
11-24-2009, 11:42 AM
In addition to a resounding 'yes', i'd say it's not to late even now for a mod to 'un-mod' for Betrayal Fest.

100% agree.

Richard J. Johnson
11-24-2009, 11:43 AM
This is how intelligent conversation is supposed to be. I love this thread.

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 11:45 AM
I don't think blocking people from entering is the way at all. The better the filmmaker the better the level of films, thet they should create.
Agree. Better filmmakers. Better films. Better fest. More growth!



I don't know how or if it would work, but let's think of golf for a moment. A great golfer has no handicap, but and inexperienced one has a large handicap. Maybe the handicap system would work in our case, when dealing with professionals and amateurs.
Just thought I would throw it in there!
I think this would heavily conflict with your first point. There'd now be a panel on who is considered professional/amateur? This is going to offend a lot of people in both directions. You'll have less entries by talented filmmakers... fewer good films... and the downward spiral of fest atrophy would ensue.

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 11:45 AM
Secretly, I want to compete so i can ban everyone i'm in competition with the day voting opens FTW!!!!

Shawn Philip Nelson
11-24-2009, 11:45 AM
still, it's so discouraging that I can't compete in DVXFest anymore. :( I've directed one feature and two shorts in my life and both shorts started their life in a DVXFest. for someone who "grew up here", it's like being put in purgatory, haha!


Then why dont you just resign being a mod? I'm sure being a mod is cool and all, but if fests mean that much to you the answer seems simple

Barry_Green
11-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Okay, the solution is staring us in the face...

MODFEST.

Only mods get to compete.

No prizes. Just bragging rights.

Brody? I believe I'm calling you out.

Forsman? Hudson? Ramsey? Let's do this thang.

Anyone heard from Jarred Land? Get him to put six minutes in front of a camera.

Rowe? ... oh, crap, I forgot about Rowe... okay, um, forget I said anything...

Zak Forsman
11-24-2009, 11:50 AM
well Shawn, I also like producing screening events. being a mod is essential to coordinating the annual DVXFest screening. the time crunch is so tight between when finalists are announced and the screening happens that I need direct behind the scenes involvement to pull it off.

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 12:00 PM
This is how intelligent conversation is supposed to be. I love this thread.

Agreed, this is a very interesting and intelligent debate.

Blaine
11-24-2009, 12:01 PM
We're talking about the growth and expansion of this festival. I think all of us would love to see it grow larger and more prominent over time.I'd love to see more than 8 to 10 films in my "Good" folder. If expanding who can enter the fest raises the level of competition, it helps everyone.


Being exhibition only is just not the same at all... It's like playing on a separate court from the rest of the players. The moment we start placing these kinds of restrictions is the moment the fest plateaus and grows no further. It sets a precedent... once you're considered too big or too successful... you can't compete in the festivals. This weakens the competition... therefore weakening what it takes to win... therefore weakening the overall appearance of the festival. With each passing cycle, the films will slowly but surely become less and less interesting.You're right, Geoff. Exhibition is just not the same. I only watch the exhibition films if I know the filmmaker OR have the extra time. I don't see them in the same light.


I think this is a very critical point in the life of the festivals and what they represent. I think one path (where mods and anyone, regardless of status can make films) leads towards a better future with growth, opportunity and better films, whereas the other leads to the inevitable slow death of the fests. Call me dramatic but I honestly feel this way. Maybe it takes three or five years but as the competition thins, so will the interest... so will the prizes... so will the clout and respect a win carries... (and repeat... and repeat...) I think it will happen and this could very well be the cause.The fests have come a long way since beginning. There are always a few filmmakers that raise the bar for the rest..."favorites" perhaps, but there are also always those one or two films that come out of nowhere to blow everyone away. To take a step backward and limit the participation of filmmakers who can help to raise the bar can only be a bad thing. Hudson, Ramsey and Luis Caffesse never took the top prize as mods. Their efforts were judge solely on the quality of the finished work. Prior to becoming a mod JDS did quite well, taking first place a couple of times. Back in the competition, there's no reason to think he would be any less accomplished than he was before becoming a mod, but his inclusion would serve as motivator for many other to step up their game. The favorite doesn't always wind and there there are always surprises in the final voting. Just for historical perspective, here are the top three finishes of previous fests:

ZOMBIEFEST:
1st Texas Fortune...........Curugon
2nd Shed.........................Jack Daniel Stanley
3rd Shot In the Dark.......disjecta

SCIFEST:
1st CPU...........................Spidey
2nd The ODD Squad .........Jack Daniel Stanley
3rd A Brief Case................TheMacB

HEROFEST:
1st Bone Hand.................Jack Daniel Stanley
2nd Cache.........................Snodart
3rd There Goes the Neighborhood...Conrad Johnson

HORRORFEST:
1ST Rekindled..........................Jack Daniel Stanley/Mark Johnson
2nd Bloody Mary......................Mark Harris/TimurCivan
3rd Halfway............................Darkline

DRAMAFEST:
1st Heritage...........................Geoff R
2nd Where Silence Falls...........Norm Sanders
3rd Middleman........................Finnian

SPYFEST:
1st No Middle Ground..............Abalex
2nd Imprint.............................aravance
3rd Sorry................................Joe Blo

ALLHALLOWSFEST:
1st In Pieces...........................Ben Sliker
2nd Meat ................................andoguru
3rd Welcome to the Party........Brandon Rice

LOVEFEST:
1st 6” 45RPM EP.....................Matty G
2nd Remember When..............Jason Ramsey
3rd Where the Heart Lies .........Johnson/Hyten/Golden/Bullis (Fat Monster)

TIMEFEST:
1st O2....................................Fat Monster
2nd R.P.D.M. ...........................Mark Harris/Conrad Johnson
3rd The Small Multiple.............pia12254


TWILIGHTFEST:
1st Broadcast..........................Darkline
2nd A Work of Art....................blindbuzta
3rd Teacher’s Pet....................Richie White

LOSSFEST:
1st Collections Vol. 4: Mint In Box...JCVR
2nd Placebo.............................pia12254
3rd Model/Photographer..........Zak Forsman

QUESTFEST:
1st Nightlight..........................Solomon Chase
2nd Chasing Kangaroos............Noel Evans
3rd Diner for Two.....................armisiano

MONSTERFEST:
1st Dispatch............................Nobelo (Fat Monster)
2nd Red and the Wolf...............AJ Brooks
3rd Bits and Pieces...................Edgen

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 12:08 PM
The funny thing here is.... when the rule came out that Mods were no longer allowed to compete you could hear crickets. No calls of foul play.

As suggested, they would still be competing for 'Best of Fest'. Possibly a little more if they implement the outside Festival promotions again.

I'm sure everyone wants the 'Best of Fest' title more than the gear.

MAH

Jason Ramsey
11-24-2009, 12:18 PM
Ok. so, I think that a completely 100% valid reason for voting "no" on this is b/c of the perception of impropriety. That is in fact the reason why I made the rule that mods can't be competition eligible anymore a couple of years ago.

I think that is a 100% valid reason, and still my main cause for concern, which is why this thread is here :)

Brace yourself... this is gonna be a long rambling of my thoughts both on and off the topic, but applicable to the overall discussion of festival integrity. Just my own personal thoughts not meant to sway anyone in one direction or another :)

HOWEVER.... If I may speak openly and honestly about some things that have weighed on me) for a moment kind of on, and off the topic... But, just along the lines of some things that have come up here and in the past, etc..

Something that I find extraordinarily frustrating is that some people are so quick to accuse us, or the site of dirty handedness, or call foul, or say that something isn't fair, etc. But, it's a competition, and things can get nasty when there is competition involved. It is a valuable and necessary thing, competition, but also can sometimes bring out the worst in people.

I (personally) find it frustrating that someone suggested that this idea was ONLY brought up b/c I want to allow mods loophole to come in and steal shit from the members. Or, that there was *obviously* some sort of ulterior motive involved. That there really is no other reason why I would consider such an option. If that were the case, there wouldn't be discussion about it in the first place :) But, I get it... I guess. Comes back to the whole "how it's viewed" thing. Some will view it as such, and that's why there is this thread in the first place.

I also find it frustrating that someone has implied both here, and in previous discussions with me, that some people shouldn't be allowed to participate b/c they are "too good" and it's "not fair". And, that Fat Monster (specifically) should not be able to compete, b/c they are too good. And, allowing them to enter anonymously somehow just meant that "the fix was in" and that it was somehow rigged for them to win (I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one). That their only motive was to come in and get some "easy pickings". And, that a member then began a mission of pm'ing lord knows how many members and "outting" fat monster as anonymous, and saying how the whole thing was rigged (at least the one that was forwarded to me stated as much). That last part... I find that lower than low, and personally... in my opinion... especially coming from someone going on and on about fairness and accusing the fests of being rigged... in my opinion, that's grounds for that persons permanent dismissal from dvxfest. Not only that, but I find it extremely hypocritical. On one hand, you want fairness, and on another you go against the long stated rules and start a private campaign to attempt to damage a film by outing them as anonymous.

Or, that someone would insinuate that people who are too good shouldn't be allowed to participate in this fest (and not talking just about mods here). Like, we should screen films and disallow people who are too well-known to participate. In other words, only allow people below a certain threshold to participate so that they can have a chance at prizes/winning. As if it's a t-ball fest.

If it really isn't about the prizes, and is about the process, and the feedback, etc, etc... Then having stiff, strong competition, and some really great work in the fests is what one should be encouraging.

This is little league in the sense that everyone gets a chance at bat. But, that's where it stops. We are all-inclusive, and that cuts both ways. Enter another fest, and many of the films here won't even get publicly screened or downloaded several thousand times by viewers. The better the films we can have, the better the festival will be for EVERYONE who participates. Of course, not at the expense of the fests being legit.

(Oh... for the record... I saw it mentioned somewhere in this thread, and just remembered about it and want to clarify something. Just b/c certain film threads get a lot more discussion, doesn't meant that those films are getting a lot more views and ratings. In fact, the number of ratings is pretty even-keel across all the films. It's so easy for someone to rate. they download watch, and check a star. It takes more effort for someone to go and post in the thread. I view those as two completely different types of feedback for the filmmaker.)

Anyways... It also personally slays me that I now feel like I can't even comment in a freaking thread and tell someone that I enjoyed their film, b/c that is somehow unfairly giving them an advantage. We're just people, and while I get where some are coming from with that, at what point do we draw the line? I mean seriously. There is a very open and community spirit going on here, and the only way to make it appear 100000% completely fair (well, attempt to) is to become really rigid about things, and then we're likely to kill one of the very things that are so beneficial and unique about the fests.

And, it sucks (for me) that I can't tell someone how much I enjoyed their film as an audience member without someone possibly accusing me of, or muttering about how it's unfair, or me feeling that way. I hate that feeling. Sorry, but I do. Just trying to do like everyone else, and encourage and comment where I can find the time, as are other mods. Now, should I not do that and worry over the fact that someone thinks its unfair that I commented in a thread, or should I just draw a line at some point and say..." you know what?... screw it.. if you are taking it to such an extreme that I can't even comment on a film without it being some kind of ulterior motive... then that is your problem... not mine..."

It also sucks that people don't feel like they can say something critical of a film if another mod likes it b/c they think a mod would sensor it... Sorry, but that's absurd. and on and on and on. Or, that they don't feel like they can give honest feedback to a moderator film, etc, etc, etc. Point is... some of this stuff is just laughable/frustrating to me, and I'm not really sure how much on egg-shells we should walk...

Now, most of all of this is very separate from the poll topic, and I am not using any of hte above as an argument for or against that. I'm cool with it either way. I just wanted to get out some of my thoughts (for better or for worse) about some things as they are partially relevant to the overall discussion of festival integrity.

---

Novel... sorry.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand... The appearance of things being legit. That is where the argument is really at. I just want the mods to be able to participate like everyone else for their own sake and for their own benefit and for that of the fests as well, but not at the expense of the appearance of the legitimacy of the fest (even though the simple act of posting in a thread of a film that I personally enjoyed constitutes cheating in some folks eyes). I wish there was a way to have both. The fests have grown a lot, but they are still a relatively small thing. A huge undertaking, with a small group of people running them. a strong sense of community and collaboration is what makes them great, but is also what leads to feelings of "impropriety". To this specific topic, I wish there was a way to let anyone, including mods participate in a fest in a way that they can get as much out of it as everyone else can. The fact that exhibition entries are rated now helps that some.

Is allowing a mod to participate and "compete" where they can actually win first place, but they can't take home ANY prizes acceptable? Or is it still the same basic problem of the perception of legitimacy? That's an honest question/suggestion by the way :)

We will now have a member vote (that decides the prizes) and an overall popular vote that doesn't decide any prizes, but anyone is allowed to rate the films. Basically for additional data by the way. 50+ posts and logged in, decides the prize winners. Everyone else, member or otherwise can also rate the films and provide data, but that 2nd c ategory doesn't decide any prizes.


I wonder if there is some other way to accomplish what I would like, which is allowing people to participate and gain full value, but without any kind of damage to festival integrity appearance. I really just want some of the guys to be able to participate b/c I know they miss it. but, no... certainly not at the expense of the fest. Particularly since I am the one who made the mods can be exhibition only rule in the first place :)

Zim
11-24-2009, 12:25 PM
Make everyone who enters a film a moderator. Problem solved.

Jason Ramsey
11-24-2009, 12:28 PM
sorry for my super long post...

So, is a "best of fest" or a audience favorite that carries the prestige, but no physical prizes beyond that something that folks are suggesting as an ok alternative... and, if so, one that does or does not require mods to (at the very least) be removed from the section that discusses the fest during a fest)?

later,
Jason

Stephen Mick
11-24-2009, 12:32 PM
sorry for my super long post...

So, is a "best of fest" or a audience favorite that carries the prestige, but no physical prizes beyond that something that folks are suggesting as an ok alternative... and, if so, one that does or does not require mods to (at the very least) be removed from the section that discusses the fest during a fest)?

later,
Jason

That sounds like a good solution to me, JR.

I'd also add that, when anyone, mods or otherwise, makes a great Fest film, it can attract attention to the Fest as a whole. The more people that know about these Fests, the better for all of us, methinks.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-24-2009, 12:33 PM
sorry for my super long post...

So, is a "best of fest" or a audience favorite that carries the prestige, but no physical prizes beyond that something that folks are suggesting as an ok alternative... and, if so, one that does or does not require mods to (at the very least) be removed from the section that discusses the fest during a fest)?

later,
JasonYour long post was a good one and all should be able to compete.

I think this idea is the best one. It also keeps the Fest free of impropriety.
And lastly, the Mods get to jump right in!

Zim
11-24-2009, 12:40 PM
Sounds good and yes they should be in the Betrayal Fest too

Dustin R. Rogan
11-24-2009, 12:41 PM
It doesn't bother me any. Mods are just people that give more time to this site than the rest of us. I don't feel like they should be punished for that. In fact, if it were my call, I'd say Jason R & Larry R should be able to enter too.
Notice he left out a certain guy named Jack...very wise :D Sorry 1.0 the people (bwind) have spoken ;) jk

Rogan

Jason Ramsey
11-24-2009, 12:45 PM
Ok. just want to make sure I am understanding this (which also makes the original poll irrelevant).

The potential issue is in the fact that mods would be eligible for prizes (which is also the reason that we made mods be exhibition only), correct?

So, if that's the case... I'm assuming that it would be considered acceptable for mods and ANYONE to compete in the fest, be competition eligible, and if they end up being the #1 ranked best film, then they get the honor of "Best in Fest". HOWEVER, the prizes would roll down to the next eligible participant and go from there?

Say, Zak enters and gets 8.4, Horrigan gets 8.2, Jack gets 7.9, Fat Monster gets 7.843, etc, etc, etc.

Zak is "Best in Fest/Audience favorite", whatever. No physical prizes though. Horrigan is 2nd place and gets prizes as well, Jack is 3rd, no prizes. Fat Monster is 4th, gets prizes. So, in other words, Horrigan and Fat Monster are 1st and 2nd in terms of receiving prizes, but the actual who is the "best in the fest" is based off the rankings.

Is this acceptable, or am I missing the boat somewhere? If I am not, does anyone object to the above example? Do I need a separate poll for that? :evil:

later,
Jason

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 12:52 PM
Your post was well written jason, with good points and a window into your thoughts on this subject.
It has been said before, we all understand and are grateful for the work you Mods do on this site, and a good discussion like this can only shows that you are intent on improving this forum with the help of the members. It is engaging and intelligent, but with that you will get comments that you don't agree with or like.
I don't think Zaza had any intent on calling you Mods dishonest, but just wanted to put that feeler out there and spark a conversation on the subject, because others in the shadows are probably thinking it. Getting you guys commenting on it and giving us your thoughts enables us to understand who, what, when, where and why.

Jason Ramsey
11-24-2009, 12:52 PM
Oh, and just to be clear on my long post above... I wasn't trying to single anyone out or attack anyone specifically really.. So, if I referenced comments made in any of your posts, it wasn't necessarily intended as a sleight against you or your comments, or that you believed that to be the case. Just that your observations, thoughts, opinions, etc. touched on some things that I've been battling with internally as well. So, sorry if anyone took it as an attack against their viewpoint, or as interpreting their comments as anything other than an observation on the way things can be and are sometimes perceived.

EDIT: Elastic, I agree, and that is also why I just posted this follow up. I didn't mean it as an attack on anyone, but some of the comments resonate with me as they are things that believe it or not, I've been thinking of as well. I didn't mean to insinuate that I believed some of the comments that I referenced were anything more than an observation on perception. Not so far as that an individual person really feels that way. Though, there are some that do. Hence this whole discussion on "perception" :)

Stephen Mick
11-24-2009, 12:56 PM
Ok. just want to make sure I am understanding this (which also makes the original poll irrelevant).

The potential issue is in the fact that mods would be eligible for prizes (which is also the reason that we made mods be exhibition only), correct?

So, if that's the case... I'm assuming that it would be considered acceptable for mods and ANYONE to compete in the fest, be competition eligible, and if they end up being the #1 ranked best film, then they get the honor of "Best in Fest". HOWEVER, the prizes would roll down to the next eligible participant and go from there?

Say, Zak enters and gets 8.4, Horrigan gets 8.2, Jack gets 7.9, Fat Monster gets 7.843, etc, etc, etc.

Zak is "Best in Fest/Audience favorite", whatever. No physical prizes though. Horrigan is 2nd place and gets prizes as well, Jack is 3rd, no prizes. Fat Monster is 4th, gets prizes. So, in other words, Horrigan and Fat Monster are 1st and 2nd in terms of receiving prizes, but the actual who is the "best in the fest" is based off the rankings.

Is this acceptable, or am I missing the boat somewhere? If I am not, does anyone object to the above example? Do I need a separate poll for that? :evil:

later,
Jason

FTW!

Works for me.

Geoff_R
11-24-2009, 12:57 PM
Ok. just want to make sure I am understanding this (which also makes the original poll irrelevant).

The potential issue is in the fact that mods would be eligible for prizes (which is also the reason that we made mods be exhibition only), correct?

So, if that's the case... I'm assuming that it would be considered acceptable for mods and ANYONE to compete in the fest, be competition eligible, and if they end up being the #1 ranked best film, then they get the honor of "Best in Fest". HOWEVER, the prizes would roll down to the next eligible participant and go from there?

Say, Zak enters and gets 8.4, Horrigan gets 8.2, Jack gets 7.9, Fat Monster gets 7.843, etc, etc, etc.

Zak is "Best in Fest/Audience favorite", whatever. No physical prizes though. Horrigan is 2nd place and gets prizes as well, Jack is 3rd, no prizes. Fat Monster is 4th, gets prizes. So, in other words, Horrigan and Fat Monster are 1st and 2nd in terms of receiving prizes, but the actual who is the "best in the fest" is based off the rankings.

Is this acceptable, or am I missing the boat somewhere? If I am not, does anyone object to the above example? Do I need a separate poll for that? :evil:

later,
Jason

As much as I prefer that you and the rest of the mods be eligible for prizes too... I think this is a decent compromise and I see no reason why anyone should have a problem with it.

Mark Harris
11-24-2009, 12:59 PM
Seems fine.

But where are we on the Australian issue?

Rodney V. Smith
11-24-2009, 01:00 PM
Seems fine.

But where are we on the Australian issue?

More beer for everyone involved! Every entrant gets a beer!

EDIT: or a free Australian

DarkElastic
11-24-2009, 01:02 PM
I agree with the recommendation, Jason.

Sorry Mark, the Kangeroo Union were on and they fought for the inclusion of more ozzies!!!

Jason Ramsey
11-24-2009, 01:23 PM
Seems fine.

But where are we on the Australian issue?

we're going to need another poll for that one :)

Speaking of which, I'm closing this current poll, as it is really no longer relevant to the current proposal.

Seems as though there may be a strong consensus to allow mods to be competition eligible, but not physical prize eligible.

If anyone objects, speak now or forever hold your peace :)

Later,
Jason

Jason Ramsey
11-24-2009, 01:38 PM
Please vote on the current proposal. Poll, after poll, after polll, I know :) Just want to make sure that everyone feels they can voice their opinion on the matter and has the opportunity to do so anonymously if they need to:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=191591

Horncastle
11-24-2009, 01:59 PM
Okay, the solution is staring us in the face...

MODFEST.

Only mods get to compete.

No prizes. Just bragging rights.

Brody? I believe I'm calling you out.

Forsman? Hudson? Ramsey? Let's do this thang.

Anyone heard from Jarred Land? Get him to put six minutes in front of a camera.

Rowe? ... oh, crap, I forgot about Rowe... okay, um, forget I said anything...

Maybe this was said in jest, but actually it seems a great idea to me. It would fulfill the mod's desire for competition and the rest of us would have some great entertainment and some education to boot! Maybe once a year or a once in a while challenge when most of you agree you are up to it: Modfest!!! Run just like the other fests (i.e. we all get to vote and comment). And you can even have prizes as far as I'm concerned :). Of course there would need to be enough of you entering to make it a real competition (maybe you should invite the mods from the other ...user forums) and then... remember one of you will have to come last :evil:.

Barry_Green
11-24-2009, 02:04 PM
Hey, if we could do "modfest" anonymously, so people voted on the quality of the film instead of the popularity of the mod... that might be fun...

Horncastle
11-24-2009, 02:16 PM
Yes, anonymous entries could be a good idea, especially if it includes entries from the other ...user forums (I do think you may need them to get the numbers up). One danger I see with a Modfest is that it might have the effect of downgrading the normal fests to "second level" fests. That could be a reason for making the Modfest an occasional challenge rather than a regular competition. I do think it's worth discussing though.

Barry_Green
11-24-2009, 02:21 PM
But the modfest (not that we've even discussed such a thing) shouldn't take away from the DVXFest, in that the DVXFest is the main event, it's the one with the prizes and the jury panel.

I figure a "modfest" would be more like the Police vs. Firemen charity basketball game. Except, of course, being who we are, we'd all be playing for blood. So maybe the police vs. firemen charity rugby game?

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-24-2009, 02:21 PM
Polling and discussion should continue at the link below:

Please vote on the current proposal. Poll, after poll, after polll, I know :) Just want to make sure that everyone feels they can voice their opinion on the matter and has the opportunity to do so anonymously if they need to:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=191591