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Jack Daniel Stanley
11-22-2009, 12:40 AM
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2978/betrayal2jds.jpg

If you guys post stuff here, as the thread grows, I'll add links to your posts in the first post or add the links themselves to the first post.

Here's something to start you off.

Betrayal quotes:
http://www.finestquotes.com/select_quote-category-Betrayal-page-0.htm

Some good quotes from Zim

"Is it possible to succeed without any act of betrayal?" Jean Renoir

"A true friend stabs you in the front" Oscar Wilde

Yes this might be a good fest. Great idea. Now to come up with one! (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1820909&postcount=29)

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1294/betrayal1jds.jpg

Gohanto
11-22-2009, 08:58 AM
Does this help?

http://sophismata.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/betrayal.jpg

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-22-2009, 10:17 AM
sure maybe it will spark something for someone :)

Zak Forsman
11-22-2009, 10:53 AM
thanks jack. some inspiring words in there.

if i was going to offer up one piece of advice while everyone is crafting their stories, it would be to avoid using a betrayal as a reveal to end their piece on. we know the theme and we will see it coming, we will anticipate the eventual breach of trust or faith, killing any measure of suspense. so consider beginning your stories with the act of betrayal and follow that thread to its natural (or unnatural) conclusion.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-22-2009, 11:17 AM
Interesting point, and I agree within the context of this fest that a betrayal twist or snap ending could lack resonance, I would just say yes and (not yes but) and add the following two thoughts:

1) yes, in the context of the fest a reveal, or snap / surprise ending of Betrayal for this fest might lose punch. A great example and a film worth revisiting would be Where the Heart Lies 2nd place (I think) Love Fest (look it up peeps). Here the act of Betrayal is a reveal at the end. But worked in the context of that fest because it wasn't called Betrayal Fest, it was Love Fest. Now ... having said that, you might make the decision to have the snap ending anyway in Betrayal fest if a) that's really what serves your story, b) your thinking of the fest as the excuse to get this thing made but expect to submit it to lots of real world (or Twitter 3D as I've heard Zak call the real world) fests that aren't called Betrayal fest. But, as always, Zak is right, for the context of this fest, a snap reveal ending of betrayal may lose some punch.
2) Just to clarify suspense vs. surprise. You can have the act of betrayal occur at the end of your film and explore the theme and have it have power if you are going for suspense instead of surprise. You can't have suspense unless you have an inkling that something bad is coming. You may not know exactly how or when, but something early in the story sets up that something is coming, the suspense is the tension that builds waiting for it. The standard def. of suspense, the Hitchcock definition is that you show the audience there is a bomb under the desk. They know that the bomb is going to go off, the characters may or may not. If they don't the suspense comes from "will they discover it in time and get out." If they do the the suspense comes from "will they get out and how". In CARRIE a film with a great act of betrayal at the end, we all know what's coming for CARRIE, De Palma has showed us in obsessive, near ridiculous (especially if you just go watch that scene out of context) slow, slow, slow motion. Here's the bucket of blood, here's the people who know about it, here's how it works, here's where the rope leads that pulls the bucket of blood, here's the teacher that notices the rope going to the bucket of blood, she's probably way too far away from the stage to get there and stop the blood from spilling down on Carrie as she accepts her prom award, but the teacher will try to get there anyway in painstakingly slow, slow motion. That's suspense. It's like seeing a train wreck coming and being unable to look away.

Sooo even in the context of Betrayal fest, an act of Betrayal at the end of the piece can have suspense if you're forshawdowing, letting us see the chess pieces being placed on the board that will lead to something bad. Something very specific - we know the bucket of blood is coming, or something less specifc - we know there's little chance this situation will work out well. What won't work as well in the context of the fest, but still can work in the real word, is a suprise betrayal at the end.

Of course, especially since this is typically our Human Drama themed fest, and to the heart of Zak's post I think, we want you to really explore Betrayal and the type of human drama and interaction and the pain that can come with it, not just defaultint to something flashy, where "surprise, the hot girl was really working both sides and was just seducing our main character to get away with the cash". Notice I said not defaulting to that. Didn't say you couldn't make that. That could be a cool flick done right. We just want to encourage people to dig deep for this one.

Zak Forsman
11-22-2009, 11:26 AM
right on. I'd secretly like to see the guys who made Losers in Excess – the ultimate loss film, about loss and losing things – make the ultimate betrayal upon betrayal upon betrayal film. that would be fun.

Gohanto
11-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Found these rather interesting...

The Four Basic Types of Betrayal

Betrayal by Authority
When we find ourselves betrayed or abused by authority figures, feelings of helplessness and disillusionment set in. Instances of betrayal we experience by the police, religious officials, mental health professionals, parents or teachers carry an extra weight. These experiences can lead to deep trauma symptoms, such as anxiety, hypervigilance or personality disorders, and many feelings become repressed due to emotional pain.
Betrayal by Loved Ones
After years of trust, we feel secure in our lasting friendships and relationships, making it sting all the more when we are suddenly betrayed. Depending on the closeness of the relationship and the type and depth of trauma, PTSD and depression can occur. Many betrayed by loved ones will also experience a measure of grief, as they mourn both the betrayal and the relationship.
Betrayal by Strangers
At times, we are betrayed by strangers with whom we have a basic sense of trust. You trust that you will not be attacked walking down the street, or that your money will be legally invested on your behalf. This can lead to phobias, panic, anxiety and depression.
Cyclical Betrayal
Sometimes, we find ourselves perpetually betrayed by someone we love. We make rationalizations for them and punish ourselves, reliving cycles of abuse and betrayal. We take back a cheating partner, put up with put-downs, or keep hoping the person we love will change, when they do not. Cyclical betrayal can take an enormous toll on the mind and body—and can trigger deep depression and even PTSD.

Here's the site and it's got some other interesting points as well...
http://soberplace.com/trauma/betrayal/understanding-the-basic-types-of-betrayal

Such as how betrayal can drive people to drugs, loss of trust in others or even God, depression, blaming themselves, shifting the blame to other people (i.e. "Why did you make me do this to you?"), ect...
Definitely some strong possibilities for character motives.

Rodney V. Smith
11-22-2009, 11:49 AM
Or you can have a WHOLE cavalcade of betrayal! Betrayal in EXCESS!

Brickhouse
11-22-2009, 12:00 PM
Does this help?

http://sophismata.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/betrayal.jpg

Yes.

Nitsuj
11-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Et tu, Brute

MrKilloran
11-22-2009, 02:41 PM
right on. I'd secretly like to see the guys who made Losers in Excess – the ultimate loss film, about loss and losing things – make the ultimate betrayal upon betrayal upon betrayal film. that would be fun.


Or you can have a WHOLE cavalcade of betrayal! Betrayal in EXCESS!

Can you guys handle that much Betrayal? :grin: Lawrie will be cursing my name for quite some time.

Rodney V. Smith
11-22-2009, 02:43 PM
Can you guys handle that much Betrayal? :grin:

bring. it. ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It will be good to see you guys back in action. DO IT!

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-22-2009, 08:57 PM
thanks jack. some inspiring words in there.

if i was going to offer up one piece of advice while everyone is crafting their stories, it would be to avoid using a betrayal as a reveal to end their piece on. we know the theme and we will see it coming, we will anticipate the eventual breach of trust or faith, killing any measure of suspense. so consider beginning your stories with the act of betrayal and follow that thread to its natural (or unnatural) conclusion.
Just to comment on this a bit further, which I agree with BTW.

I think some people made this error in MonsterFest by saving their reveal until late in their movie.
We knew there was supposed to be a monster so saving it until the end wasn't much of a surprise.

On the flip side, that didn't hurt Dispatch at all so what the hell! :)

As JDS pointed out, when done well it doesn't really make a difference.

Just my measly 2 cents.

MAH

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-22-2009, 09:54 PM
It's hard for me to comment objectively on Dispatch because I read an early draft of it. I mean yes it as effectively done, but I think it's supposed to have a twist reveal that she's a vampire. Because this is Monster Fest, one mod I talked to said he knew instantly that she was a vampire because she had a wooden stake in her chest. I asked one of the jurors that rated it highly though (after he'd turned in his ballot) and he said he was completely surprised by it.

So Dispatch, for those that saw the twist coming because it was Monster Fest would be a good example of what Zak was talking about on one level. Don't have a surprise reveal that is the theme of the fest at the end. Then again, maybe do have that if you're thinking beyond DVXuser and think that makes the best film. Also you could surprise reveal the nature of the Betrayal. Yeah we know it's coming but maybe it comes in a different way than we expected, or from a different person.

Again, to the heart of Zak's post, I'm often an advocate of the O'Henry snap ending for extremely short form fiction. This can lead to really superficial material, and I think that's what Zak's advocating against more than anything else, and he's right to do so (stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth ZaK).

Winter is typically the Human Drama Fest and betrayal is a rich theme. Wer'e hoping that wherever you put your betrayal, at the beginning, the end, throughout, that you (the members not "you" MAH) don't just default to getting the guns out and doing a Reservoir Dogs knock off for Betrayal. (Though we don't want to discourage anyone that's in love with that idea). But again that wherever you put it you at least consider this an opportunity to really work on character and the emotional life of Betrayal. If your Betrayal is at the beginning as Zak suggests, then you might find yourself exploring the aftermath of that betrayal, the consequences, and how this changes or makes the relatioships more complex. IF you betrayal is at the end (irrrespective of wether your narrative is a staight shot leading to a more or less inevitable conclusion) then hopefully you'll spend your time setting things up so that that betrayal has emotional resonance, is a real gut punch, rather than just a narrative turn. In otherwords, making us care about the characters or presenting a situation that we can identify and feel empathy for the people involved so that when the betrayal comes we feel it, understand it on an emotional level rather than just a slick narrative level.

Because, as Zak has alluded, it could be pretty hollow and not really dig deeply into Betrayal otherwise. I mean think about what betrayl means. Someone you don't know tells a perspective employer you're a drug addict ( a lie persumabely) because they want the job. Now imagine your best friend tells the perspective employer you're a drug addict because he wants the job. The first example just sucks. It's ruthless but it isn't really betrayal. The second example is. So the very nature of the theme implys a richer emotional life and intimacy with the betrayer for the true depth you can get out of this. On a more superficial level it just requires an agreed trust - say 4 crooks that don't know each other and one turns out to be a cop or takes all the loot for themsevles. Yes that's betrayal too, because of the implied trust in their "gang". But the real meat of the theme may lie in deeper waters.

Zak Forsman
11-22-2009, 10:31 PM
yes, i was perhaps too short-sighted in my advice. my great hope is that filmmakers ARE looking beyond this fest with a plan to nurture the film into other festivals. Dispatch received one of my highest ratings, but the second I saw the stake I thought "she's a vampire". So despite top-level execution on all fronts, the impactfulness of the ending was deflated (for me) by the context of the festival it premiered in.

Reservoir Dogs is a lovely example and what makes it sing is that beneath the surface layer of a handful of criminals that don't know each other taking each other out, is the very tight friendship between Roth and Keitel that makes the inevitable betrayal between them resonate deeply.

If I were to make a film, I might aspire to something like this.... A man has decided to leave his wife for another woman, until she reveals a terminal disease. And he reacts in the best way a person could.... but does that buy back his disloyalty? I suspect that would be different for every viewer.

k6wjPi6VzI4

Jack, the more you talk about the possibilities, the more I want to make something for this fest. :)

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-22-2009, 11:12 PM
Just an idea to throw out there as I was reading Zak's hypothetical log line - maybe this will get someone's ideas going...

What about an act of betrayal or seeming act of betrayal for the betrayed person's own good?

Here's the cliched example: Kid returning a wild animal to the woods that he's nursed back to health. The animal has bonded with the kid, loves him, but to live his fullest life he should be in the wild. So the kid throws rocks at the animal and says he hates the animal to get him to go back to the wild. You can see that scene in a lot of movies - Harry and the Hendersons then lovingly parodied on 30 Rock. But you could take that idea ...

An older woman and a younger man are having a passionate affair. He's not going to go away to college, making all sorts of foolish decisions to be with this woman. He's totally in love with her. She cares for him, but not in the same way, or she's jaded and knows the affair has no future and the kid is messing up his life because of it. To get him to move on and live his life. She sleeps with his best friend. Ooh I wanna see that one. Or maybe make it now :)

leepback
11-23-2009, 12:48 AM
If I were to make a film, I might aspire to something like this.... A man has decided to leave his wife for another woman, until she reveals a terminal disease. And he reacts in the best way a person could.... but does that buy back his disloyalty? I suspect that would be different for every viewer.

BTW I've seen this film - French, but cannot remember the name. It may have been a short.

Barry_Green
11-23-2009, 01:11 AM
Every fest I come out and say the same thing -- filmmakers, please don't just grab the low-hanging fruit. Don't run with the first idea that hits you. Because, remember -- everyone who watches any of these films is going to be EXPECTING a "betrayal". So if you make a film where a happy couple is happy for five minutes, and then you spring a last-minute betrayal on us, you might expect to get a big emotional reaction from the audience -- but it simply isn't going to work. We know it's coming.

So think differently. Stretch. What could you betray?
Country?
Relationship?
Vows?
Yourself?
Your employees?
Your principles?
Your faith?
Your heritage?

Millions of things.

What if the act of betrayal is what's best for the betrayee? (as exemplified by Jack's throwing-the-rocks-at-the-dog)?

And don't think that we even have to see the betrayal. What if the betrayal has already happened? What if we don't see the betrayal at all. The theme of the fest is betrayal, that doesn't mean you have to make a movie about someone getting betrayed. They may already have been betrayed. And now we're having to deal with the aftermath, maybe.

Does betrayal have to necessarily be a negative thing? Your high school "best friend" betraying your confidence that you "like" that particular girl, might make you mad for a minute, but if it turns out that she likes you back, was it necessarily bad?

And, hey, the obvious might be the right answer too -- a tight film could be made about three guys pointing guns at each other, all trying to figure out which one of them was the rat. We don't need a big "surprise, you're betrayed" moment, but instead that sick creeping feeling when you start to figure it out... maybe.

Winners (of various titles) from past fests that fit the theme of Betrayal, off the top of my head:
"The Tell" from MonsterFest
"O2", from TimeFest.
"No Middle Ground", from SpyFest
"Odd Squad" from SciFest
"Schittekatter" from SpyFest

You can fit this theme into any genre, any mold. Action. Romance. Comedy. Sci-Fi. Noir. Drama. Anything. A character drama about an old Chinese farmer whose only son is finally old enough to take over the farm, but decides instead to go to college. A rom/com about a Greek woman from a Greek family who decides to marry a non-Greek. A drama or thriller about a relationship where the guy hits his woman for the first time. Industrial espionage where your character reveals secrets. Or a whistleblower ratting out the tobacco companies to the government... heck, Rambo could probably even be seen as a story of betrayal (a government that betrayed its obligation to take care of its wounded vietnam vet).

Anyway, stretch your minds. Think of the THEME of betrayal, not just the ACT of betrayal. The act of betraying -- that's the low-hanging fruit. Go deeper. Think further. Dig into your soul and find something really juicy, and bring that to the fest!

Kholi
11-23-2009, 01:57 AM
Just to comment on this a bit further, which I agree with BTW.

I think some people made this error in MonsterFest by saving their reveal until late in their movie.
We knew there was supposed to be a monster so saving it until the end wasn't much of a surprise.

On the flip side, that didn't hurt Dispatch at all so what the hell! :)

As JDS pointed out, when done well it doesn't really make a difference.

Just my measly 2 cents.

MAH

Yeah, was gonna say: DISPATCH.

There is only preference, in my eyes. The rest is left up to execution. Even if you're expecting the betrayal, it's no different than expecting the hero in an adventure film to prevail; you know they will, it's HOW they do it that's more important.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-23-2009, 02:42 AM
I agree Kholi, the only distinction I would make is if it's supposed to be a surprise that someone is a monster (In Monster Fest) or a surprise that there is a betrayal (in Betrayal Fest), then it may have less punch within the context of the fest.

If it's not supposed to be a surprise, just something that may or may not occur (though we know it will) then that's just like the hero probably succeeding thing.

chriscurl
11-23-2009, 05:35 AM
Can betrayal ever be committed unknowingly by the betrayer? Or does by its very definition have to be a known act being done?

Rodney V. Smith
11-23-2009, 05:39 AM
Can betrayal ever be committed unknowingly by the betrayer? Or does by its very definition have to be a known act being done?

I would think that a person can FEEL betrayed even if the betrayer knows what he did. A wife suspicious of a cheating husband can feel betrayed even if he himself is completely innocent. The effects of this perceived betrayal are the same whether or not there an actual betrayal and her reactions are all that matter.

Michael Anthony Horrigan
11-23-2009, 06:41 AM
Yeah, was gonna say: DISPATCH.

There is only preference, in my eyes. The rest is left up to execution. Even if you're expecting the betrayal, it's no different than expecting the hero in an adventure film to prevail; you know they will, it's HOW they do it that's more important.Agreed.

The only difference is sometimes the Hero falls here and there and you are never sure exactly how he's going to pull it off.

In MonsterFest if the Monster hasn't shown its face yet and someone starts to twitch late in the timeline then you know it's coming. :)

I agree with you though. Execution is everything. JDS touched on that quite a bit as well. It will be very interesting to see which direction each filmmaker goes with this one.

MAH

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-23-2009, 10:39 AM
Can betrayal ever be committed unknowingly by the betrayer? Or does by its very definition have to be a known act being done?


I would think that a person can FEEL betrayed even if the betrayer knows what he did. A wife suspicious of a cheating husband can feel betrayed even if he himself is completely innocent. The effects of this perceived betrayal are the same whether or not there an actual betrayal and her reactions are all that matter.
Again it's the theme of betrayal, so if the person FEELS betrayed that could be an exploration of the theme. Interestingly in Rodney's example, if the wife suspects the husband of cheating (one look at the theme already), then goes to far with that, by hiring a private detective say, then you have another look at betrayal, a breach of trust.

There's a scene in hand that rocks the cradle like that. The baby sitter implies to the wife that her husband is having an affair with her best friend. The baby sitter then encourages the husband and wife's best friend to meet and plan a surprise party for the wife. When they do, she makes sure the wife knows about it somehow, that her husband and best friend were out to dinner, and of course that the husband lied about where he was (since he was planning her surprise party). Everything pays off when the wife confronts the best friend in the kitchen at her home screaming something like "I know you're f'ing my husband!", much to the shock of the aghast surprise party-ers hiding around the corner in the living room. She thought they were betraying her, but wound up betraying her friend and her husband by turning their good efforts into something bad in her mind. PLUS in this instance, there's a third level of betrayal, the babysitter pretending to be the wife's friend, but settig her up for this ridiculous intrigue on a smaller level, and doing so in order to drive a wedge bewteen the wife and husband so she can seduce him for herself on a larger level.

dougspice
11-23-2009, 12:20 PM
Loving this fest theme. It might bring me out of my cave to participate.

Of course a betrayal can be unintentional. Think of revealing a secret that you didn't know was a secret. Or of the second-order effects of any action. An FBI agent in the drug war is betrayed on a grand level by his former partner who is trying to win the war on terror by funding afghan warlords who are growing and exporting opium.

But those are not examples that are exactly full of drama. A betrayal is juiciest when it is intentional - even (especially) if the intention is ultimately noble. In real life, there's no such thing as a villain... most people believe that what they are doing is good and right, even if they are delusional and ultimately wrong. That's where your human drama comes from.

As for the conversation about using a betrayal as the reveal, I'll also agree that it depends entirely on your execution. Look at United 93 or Valkyrie. We know what happens in both of those films, and yet they are both very tense, visceral films where (against your own judgment) you are on the edge of your seat, wondering if history will for just this moment be suspended. Of course, this is much, much harder to execute on within the limits of 6 minutes.

Zak Forsman
11-23-2009, 12:26 PM
Sure, i think this speaks to Jack's differentiation between suspense and surprise. if you rely on a betrayal as a twist or surprise it isn't going to play effectively in this particular festival. if you build suspense toward an anticipated and inevitable breach of faith, the "how" and "why" could be very, very compelling.

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-23-2009, 12:34 PM
Yes, Christopher Mcquarrie talked about Valkerie at Austin Film Festival and the whole suspense thing. They were concerned about how the story and the bomb sequence in particular might play because people already know the ending / history.

Then someone on set said "oh I get it, you're doing the Hitchcock bomb thing," Which he claims they'd never heard of that specific example of Hitch's about showing the audience the bomb, and he and Brian Singer said "what do you mean" and they explained the whole show the bomb thing and the suspense as I did in my earlier post, and they were like "yeah I guess we are doing the bomb thing."

Zak Forsman
11-23-2009, 12:45 PM
funny, that "bomb thing" was explained by Hitch himself on the monitors when you waited in line to go into the Hitchcock theater at Universal Studios in florida... like 12 years ago. at least that's where I heard it.

basically it came down to suspense vs surprise.

surprise being two people in a cafe talking and suddenly a bomb under the table goes BOOM!

suspense being, show the ticking time bomb under the table, then the two people talking, and the audience goes nuts with anticipation...

Zim
11-23-2009, 03:00 PM
"Is it possible to succeed without any act of betrayal?" Jean Renoir

"A true friend stabs you in the front" Oscar Wilde

Yes this might be a good fest. Great idea. Now to come up with one!

Jack Daniel Stanley
11-23-2009, 03:03 PM
haha, nice Zim, will add those to the first post.

Ladyhazle
11-24-2009, 09:45 AM
"A true friend stabs you in the front" Oscar Wilde



My absolute favorite Oscar Wilde quote. Maybe this time I'll get around to doing a film again. I love the theme! :beer:

Indywannabe
11-27-2009, 07:16 PM
Most emotional betrayal ever for a young kid: The movie "A girl named Sooner".

The school kids threw rocks at Sooner's pet bird. Because she wanted so badly to be liked by the other kids, she joined in the rock throwing that killed her best friend.

I only saw that movie only once and will never again watch it.

Sad Max
11-28-2009, 03:44 PM
Wow, I remember that movie running on TV when I was a kid.

j1clark@ucsd.edu
12-02-2009, 05:07 PM
She sleeps with his best friend. Ooh I wanna see that one. Or maybe make it now :)

I think Maude died in 'Harold and Maude', but the most memorable lines were:



151 INT. PRIEST'S OFFICE - DAY

It is the same little old priest we have met earlier.
He sits at his desk and addresses the camera like a TV
audience. A picture of the Pope is over his right
shoulder; a picture of Jesus Christ over his left.

PRIEST
(very reasoned and slow)
Now, Harold, the Church has
nothing against the union of
the old and the young. Each
age has its own beauty. But a
marital union is concerned with
the conjugal rights. And the
procreation of children. I
would be remiss in my duties if
I did not tell you that the
idea of --
(he swallows)
- intercourse - the fact of
your young, firm --
(growing
disturbed)
-- body commingling with the
withered flesh, sagging breasts,
and flabby buttocks - makes me --
(falls apart)
- want to vomit.



I don't know if that counts as 'betrayal' by the Priest... unless it's the implication of his use of words to describe 'young Harold'...

Shawn Philip Nelson
12-04-2009, 10:46 AM
If I were to make a film, I might aspire to something like this.... A man has decided to leave his wife for another woman, until she reveals a terminal disease. And he reacts in the best way a person could.... but does that buy back his disloyalty? I suspect that would be different for every viewer.

That's one of the stories in 'Paris Je'taime', really powerful

Richard J. Johnson
12-04-2009, 11:16 AM
Damn this thread and all its insightful, useful information. It caused me to do a massive re-write. damn you Jack, Barry, and Zak. Damn you straight to HELL!!!:cheesy:


But my script is better.

Zak Forsman
12-04-2009, 12:04 PM
That's one of the stories in 'Paris Je'taime', really powerful

yeah, the YouTube link just under the plot summary I gave shows the short I was describing.

Barry_Green
12-04-2009, 12:32 PM
It caused me to do a massive re-write. damn you Jack, Barry, and Zak. Damn you straight to HELL!!!:cheesy:


But my script is better.
I'm pointing this post out to you if you place top-3, you know... :D

Shawn Philip Nelson
12-04-2009, 12:59 PM
yeah, the YouTube link just under the plot summary I gave shows the short I was describing.

Oh, it wasnt showing up before, now I see :-)

Richard J. Johnson
12-04-2009, 05:33 PM
I'm pointing this post out to you if you place top-3, you know... :D

That low hanging fruit was looking so tempting.:lipsrseal