SOUND DESIGN LACKING in MONSTERFEST

[J.R. Hudson]

We need to start having some lessons in Sound design I think.

http://www.filmsound.org/

As fun as some of these are; they are really lacking in this area. I find SOUND to be sooooo important in selling the world.

Think about a scene taking place at an outdoor cafe and all of the sounds one may hear :

The dialogue of course

The sounds of glasses and silverware, ambient dialogue, cars driving by, horns, birds chirping, the wind or a breeze blowing, the hum of an air conditioner maybe ...

Enhance all of that with foley for specific shots making the frame come alive

Score

Mixing ....

Anyways

Just a thought on how some of these could be much better

[AJ Brooks]

I agree 100%

Most films (including my own) suffered from mediocre or poor sound design.

The sound design area is an incredible way to make the world of your film more real and a lot more interesting. Definitely an area I want to improve on.

[Shawn Philip Nelson]

I thought Ryan Frias did a great job on mine, he built it up 100% in post (the on-set was fubar'd and he took ADR and went from there). We did several passes tweaking the background walla, adr reverb, fx foley and more. Though with so much music it's hard to tell, as we didnt get any quiet ambient moments.

[Brad S.]

Great post, J.R. Filmsound.org is a really great site and I highly recommend people check it out and read some of the articles by highly respected people within the sound community. I especially recommend people check out Randy Thom's article Designing for Sound (http://www.filmsound.org/articles/designing_for_sound.htm). In it he stresses that good sound starts with the script writing process.

Sound is a major part of the telling a story that is rarely utilized for its full potential. So many people think that good sound starts during post with the "sound design." A lot of the better film makers here realize that they need to plan for sound during pre-production, making sure that they get good production audio, but the real art lies in planning for sound.

Take my favorite sound moment in films, the landing on Omaha beach near the beginning of Saving Private Ryan. Sure it is an awesome sounding scene and sound designer Gary Rydstrom did an absolutely amazing job, but there are dozens of decisions made before the sound designers ever got to it.

One really important part is that Spielberg and composer John Williams were brave enough to decide that they didn't want music during that scene. That's not to say that music is bad, but it let Rydstrom take full advantage of the entire frequency range without fighting the music. They made a decision and stuck with it.

Even more important than that, Spielberg decided to shoot the scene at the same level as the soldiers, making as feel as if we are with them. That gave Rydstrom the freedom to do all of the cool bullet bys, guns and explosions to add to the chaos. But I think the most important piece of the puzzle probably came during the writing process. The piece is designed to from the perspective of Tom Hanks. We hear all of the sounds of war, putting us in the middle of it, plus we have the "shell shock" sequences with Tom Hanks, adding to the horror of war.

Anyway, just something to think about. I'd love to read more about people's views of how sound can contribute!

[Lawsuit_Boy]

My biggest concern regarding sound design in these fests is the lack of professional-grade equipment. This was my problem on Tiny Dancer (sound equipment we had was ATROCIOUS).

Of course, it couldn't hurt to offer lessons and book references (seriously, so many great texts on production out there).

[Gohanto]

I'll also take this opportunity to point to Noiz's post "Key to making your film sound like it had a budget"

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=172106

And the compilation post of a ton of post sound basics.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=174562

A great breakdown on things that are done EVEN WITH GOOD PRODUCTION tracks to make a movie sound great. And even with poor equipment, some basic post sound (along with wild takes and room tones) like dialog editing, backgrounds, and a few FX can usually at least get a movie to the point where the sound is no longer a distracting element.

And I certainly agree with Brad's points about designing a movie for sound.

You'll NEVER hear a sound designer complaint he/she was brought into a project too early. I (and I'm sure most designers) love reading scripts before they're shot and offering ideas that could help improve the effect sound will have on an audience.

And there's a lot of guys on the boards, myself included, who are happy to help on projects.

[jasonthewho]

Gohanto, thank you! I've been reading through that first link, and the thread is uber-helpful.

[dre83]

Doing sound myself I "often" deal with directors who are kind of intrested in sound, but think that sound is "normal".

Sound is something....very special... Viewers won't think 'hey... I hear city ambiences, but is it shot in a city ?" and "hey..... I hear the dog barking just when the bad guy is escaping..."

That's also the raison I like to do soundediting / sounddesign.. there is no one who is thinking of you :-p But you know that you're deciding wether they like it...or less...

Oh and mostly sounddesigners aren't realy credited (name on posters)... It's always a big big big blabla about directors, DOP, even the hairdresser... but sound... Sound is something very unknown (by some).

[Humanwire]

The sound on Sinnergy was horrible......

[J.R. Hudson]

I am stoked everyone seems hyper-aware of this element.

I always say that actors and sound are what sells your flick. Everything else is forgivable.

[Lawsuit_Boy]

I am stoked everyone seems hyper-aware of this element.

I always say that actors and sound are what sells your flick. Everything else is forgivable.

I certainly agree. Two of the most crucial elements to get right.

[DrDave]

Most sound and sound effects in films sounds artificial to me, although Kill Bill, even though heavily processed, had a great surround mix. But maybe that is to a degree what is expected.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

I added a lot of foley effects to One Percent. The fish tank filter, the blinking of the alien eye, the phone call operator, whistling/boiling kettle, footsteps, creaking floors/doors, everything. I also threw in plenty of low ambient sound effects, including some odd alien sounding stuff as well.

When I handed it over to Herman for the score he commented on it and said that he liked the creepy tone that it set up and didn't want to drown it out with a score. That's why there is very little music early on during the opening dream sequence. Herman also mixed it all together in the end very well.

I commented on every film and in most reviews I started to sound like a broken record. I listen with headphones (PC speakers suck) and a simple background room tone would have helped some entries immensely. Not terrible mind room, but 'sound is 99% of the picture*'.


* I think I'm quoting Herman there. :grin:


PS - If you don't have a subwoofer then headphones will still help you get some of the LFE that will be lost on cheap PC speakers without a sub.

[dre83]

I am stoked everyone seems hyper-aware of this element.

I always say that actors and sound are what sells your flick. Everything else is forgivable.

I totaly agree to this one, not only because I do sound myself, but let's analyse a few things:

Situation 1: a traveling shot where the focuspuller has to focus just in time one someone's face at the end of the shot. If the focus is a little to late... it doesn't matter. If the boom mice is to late... it sounds "unreal".

Also if the actor starts talking already before he's in frame...it's not that crazy.

In big budgets it's all ADR and foley of course... But I have some idea most people here do low budgets :2vrolijk_08:

And I have to say that SFX are also importend to be as perfect as possible.

[dre83]

I added a lot of foley effects to One Percent. The fish tank filter, the blinking of the alien eye, the phone call operator, whistling/boiling kettle, footsteps, creaking floors/doors, everything. I also threw in plenty of low ambient sound effects, including some odd alien sounding stuff as well.

When I handed it over to Herman for the score he commented on it and said that he liked the creepy tone that it set up and didn't want to drown it out with a score. That's why there is very little music early on during the opening dream sequence. Herman also mixed it all together in the end very well.

I commented on every film and in most reviews I started to sound like a broken record. I listen with headphones (PC speakers suck) and a simple background room tone would have helped some entries immensely. Not terrible mind room, but 'sound is 99% of the picture*'.


* I think I'm quoting Herman there. :grin:


PS - If you don't have a subwoofer then headphones will still help you get some of the LFE that will be lost on cheap PC speakers without a sub.

You are indeed quoting Herman, I know him also. I have visited him doing some "foley" things for "Carte Blanche".

[Marlon Ladd]

I agree with what Mike says. Anybody that's editing should definitely listen to the sound with headphones on. That's the only way you will be able to pick up on oddities that you otherwise wouldn't hear listening without headphones. That's the beginning of the sound, making sure the audio is consistent and there are no blank pauses in sound or pops and etc. Then ambient sound and all the other things that come along with that you work in.

[ZazaCast]

This is all well & good... headphones, studio monitors, subs, etc. The thing to keep in mind is the audience you're mixing for though. Most people (general public) are going to be watching our shorts on a computer with its crappy speakers. Your finished film (web version) should translate properly on the thousands of inferior speakers out there.

Most of us here (because we're picky bastards) will be listening on phones or studio monitors or in home theatre set-ups. Might be a good idea to create multi-version mixes so they're available for different venues.

[Gohanto]

PS - If you don't have a subwoofer then headphones will still help you get some of the LFE that will be lost on cheap PC speakers without a sub.
Well, assuming whoever mixed it had a subwoofer and the bass isn't all over the place...

Sweet, post 1000.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

This is all well & good... headphones, studio monitors, subs, etc. The thing to keep in mind is the audience you're mixing for though. Most people (general public) are going to be watching our shorts on a computer with its crappy speakers. Your finished film (web version) should translate properly on the thousands of inferior speakers out there.

Most of us here (because we're picky bastards) will be listening on phones or studio monitors or in home theatre set-ups. Might be a good idea to create multi-version mixes so they're available for different venues.
True. Although you may miss the great LFE of a good mix with cheap speakers they will still catch the noticeable hiss when ever someone utters a word and it is not properly mixed. Garbage in = garbage out.

A good mix will still sound great on cheap speakers so there's no need for multiple versions. Even better on a good setup of course.
A bad mix sounds bad regardless of what you listen to it on.

I guess the point is... clean up the audio as best as you can and then you won't have to worry what someone listens to it on. :)

MAH

[ZazaCast]

I guess the point is... clean up the audio as best as you can and then you won't have to worry what someone listens to it on. :)



Exactly! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)




(although, those mixing 5.1 for their DVD version would still need alt. versions)

[Gord.T]

Roomy dialog always makes me cringe right off the bat. It's the first thing I notice. I'd be interested in hearing about methods to improve that.

[dre83]

It's important to pay attention already during shooting, and during preproduction.

Location hunting is VERY imported for sound, and actualy the sounddepartment is the first to be for location check up. Image can be "blocked in frame"...sound is 360° and a few feet and miles..

During shooting, I would advice rather to do 1 more take which costs 5 minutes, then saying "we will fix in post", because that will take 5 hours sometimes to fix.

[dre83]

Roomy dialog always makes me cringe right off the bat. It's the first thing I notice. I'd be interested in hearing about methods to improve that.


add some reverb... add some roomnoise,

[dre83]

Are there actualy directors in here who first thougt sound was something "normal" ? And then they heard "ow...it isn't that "normal" actualy" ?

[Gord.T]

In reference to my earlier post about too much room tone in dialog...


add some reverb... add some roomnoise,

No. I already hear enough 'room tone' as it is. Adding more effects onto it won't do it. I'm looking for a dry mix off the board.

Maybe setup sheets of heavy fabric off cam to help absorb some of the bounce. Maybe using radio mikes and thier quality helps also.

In older days recording orchestras the audio used satellite dish mikes ( not sure of the offical name now or if they are still used) but they could stand 100ft back and still get a clean sound. That may be all obsolete now, bit it's always in the back of my head. I mean, if that's what it takes... :beer:

Additionaly, in a band playing bars live, we used wireless mikes for the lead singer which ran around $3K and even then he had to have a mike in his face. Not sure about the wireless clipon settups. But maybe it's getting expensive.

I wasn't the sound guy, that was just from observation. :)

So, repeating myself I guess "Maybe setup sheets of heavy fabric off cam to help absorb some of the bounce. " may help with lo-to-no budget shoots.

I played in an auditorium once that had the same problem. They eventually installed fabrics hanging from the ceiling to cut down on bounce. Also in small lo-end recording studios they often line the ceilings with egg crates. Also some absorbing objects are needed in the corners to cut down on bass bouncing around. Little things like that may help, apart from the miking issues themselves.

-Yikes, lol. I'm not an expert though, I was just asking. :)

[dre83]

In reference to my earlier post about too much room tone in dialog...



No. I already hear enough 'room tone' as it is. Adding more effects onto it won't do it. I'm looking for a dry mix off the board.

Maybe setup sheets of heavy fabric off cam to help absorb some of the bounce. Maybe using radio mikes and thier quality helps also.

In older days recording orchestras the audio used satellite dish mikes ( not sure of the offical name now or if they are still used) but they could stand 100ft back and still get a clean sound. That may be all obsolete now, bit it's always in the back of my head. I mean, if that's what it takes... :beer:

Additionaly, in a band playing bars live, we used wireless mikes for the lead singer which ran around $3K and even then he had to have a mike in his face. Not sure about the wireless clipon settups. But maybe it's getting expensive.

I wan't the sound guy, that was just from observation. :)

So, repeating myself I guess "Maybe setup sheets of heavy fabric off cam to help absorb some of the bounce. " may help with lo-to-no budget shoots.

I played in an auditorium once that had the same problem. They eventually installed fabics hanging from the ceiling to cut down on bounce. Also in small lo-end recording studios they often line the ceilings with egg crates. Also some absorbing objects are needed in the corners to cut down on bass bouncing around. Little things like that may help, apart from the miking issues themselves.

-Yikes, lol. I'm not an expert though, I was just asking. :)

ah ok, I misunderstood a few things I guess.

[Gord.T]

May be my fault then. I just meant the roominess of the characters conversations themselves, not the background ambience that everyone else has been focusing on in this thread (as I've read it).

Ambience is a concern but is secondary to the initial dialog quality imo. You'de have to admit, without the latter, the ambience doesn't add much weight at that point to the dialog, if it's already crap. :beer:

It's an interesting subject. I know people know how it's done. We hear it everyday on T.V and in all films ofcourse and have come to expect that quality in dialog.

The more tips the better. I'd be interested in hearing as well. :)

[Brad S.]

Well the first step is to get the mic as close as possible. I think ideally you'd want to get the mic about 2 feet away, but others that do production sound would be better able to answer that. Gohanto, who responded to this thread earlier, gives you the answer in his signature.

As far as I know, there are no fool proof ways get rid of roomy dialog. There are things you can do to lessen the roominess, such as expanders, EQ, and some multi-band expanders, but they only lessen the problem and too much will get obvious rather quickly.

[Herman Witkam]

I don't know of any way either to make dialog less roomy. It just can't be done. ADR is the only way to go if it's too roomy. And then you may have to deal with actors with very little experience getting their lines synced right while doing a good performance, and you spend up editing the lines for hours and being dissatisfied...

Otherwise, I'll say that shotgun mics aren't called shotgun mics for no reason. They have to be POINTED AT the actor :D

[Gord.T]

Shotgun mikes would be something to look at then. And I still say the more you can deaden the sound/set physically before hand the better off you'll be. ADR is the ideal solution audibly but like Herman said it's not practical.
Mmmm. Shotgun mikes and a dead room may be worth a look then.

//Get those blankets out. :)

[J.R. Hudson]

Roomy Noise is a gnarly culprit on this subject matter; so yes, blankies and getting that mic as close as humanly possible is prudent and of course using the correct levels.

I too cringe and notice this immediately. Maybe it is because everyone is always shooting on these 'Sets' that are either empty apartments or basement rooms or offices lacking any set design whatsoever . Not only does set design look aesthetically appealing, but it also absorbs SOUND.

Of course if it calls for an empty room, unless shooting on a sound stage, you gotta be real careful.

[MrFluffy]

Not that im an expert, but a few things to remember.
1. Dont use an on camera mic to record your dialog, use a seperate mic with a long cable, or better a seperate high quality sound recorder. If you have the mic on the camera then the actual signal level you get will be low, so you have to turn up the record levels, and that introduces hiss. It also has the effect of reducing the relative levels of the desired signal to the unwanted reflected signals and room tone. Getting the mic close gives a good signal and reduces the refelected sound and echo.
2. Get the mic in as close as humanly possible and set the level right
3. dont put the mic against a wall or ceiling as the relections of the sound will be noticable.
4. Dont try to remove hiss using a noise reducer, it makes the dialog sound like the aliens are eating it. Get the sound right the first time, or record it again. This goes hand in hand with not using an on camera mic.

[David G. Smith]

This is a great thread. I am a camera dude, for the most part, but I have also done a good bit of editing, including two feature length fictional narrative films, and the importance of good production audio can not be stressed enough. One of the best, low budget ways, to do this is to take the time on set to get clean wild tracks of as much of the production dialogue as you can. Actually set up a couple of takes, just for sound and get your mic in close to record as clean a track as you can. These can be a life saver when cutting together a piece. While these wild tracks may not exactly match the production dialogue, but, if they are recorded just after the original pic/sound takes, on the same set, they may sound better than any dialogue done as ADR latter in post. Yeah, sync may be a problem if you try to exactly match lip movement on long takes (more than a few seconds),, with a wild track, but with proper coverage, wild tracks should not be a problem to edit around. Also make sure that each wild track is properly slated (verbally at the head of the track) and logged in the production audio logs and labeled in the file name. If your film is more action oriented, instead of a dialogue heavy talking heads drama, then getting wild tracks should be a routine part of your production process. Wild tracks should not be reserved for dialogue only. It is a good idea to also get as much location specific foley type effects recorded during production, as wild tracks, as you can. If you have any props or set pieces that make noise, such as a motorcycle/car, doors, guns that are loaded or cocked, beeping electronic devices, ect, then it would be wise to get them recorded during production. These sounds may need to be modified or replaced with manufactured sound effects latter, but at least you will have them and don't have to start from scratch when editing your sound track.

One last little trick I have done is a nod to the power of the digital world we work in. If you are setting up a static shot of an actor(s) in a medium or long shot, against a static back ground and it is hard to get your boom mic close enough to not be in the shot (and you are not using lavs), there is nothing from keeping you from having the mic in the shot, close to get a clean audio track, then removing the mic from the shot in post. The way that I have done this is to set up the shot, and make sure that the camera/tripod is locked down and won't move during the shot, start the camera roll, have the mic come into the shot to record the audio, run the scene, then when the scene is over, have the mic pulled from the shot. After the mic is out of the shot, I shoot 20 to 30 seconds more to have a clean background plate to use in post. In post, I just put a hard matte that covers the mic, and replace it with video of the back ground shot without the mic in it, looped to the length of the scene. Now this simple method only works with locked down shots, with a static back ground, but I have done it a few times and it helped to get good production audio on difficult shots. I have actually replaced a boom operator standing near a table where the actors were performing, shot in long shot. That made for some pretty funny dailies, when we reviewed the footage at the end of the day. Of course everyone forgot about it when I corrected the footage in post.

[jasonthewho]

Good suggestions David.

I agree with getting close audio tracks on set. That's the advantage of always shooting tight close-ups, even if you don't intend to use them. You can get the mic in as close as you want.

[dre83]

May be my fault then. I just meant the roominess of the characters conversations themselves, not the background ambience that everyone else has been focusing on in this thread (as I've read it).

Ambience is a concern but is secondary to the initial dialog quality imo. You'de have to admit, without the latter, the ambience doesn't add much weight at that point to the dialog, if it's already crap. :beer:

It's an interesting subject. I know people know how it's done. We hear it everyday on T.V and in all films ofcourse and have come to expect that quality in dialog.

The more tips the better. I'd be interested in hearing as well. :)

ok, as we say "not well boomed"


I don't know of any way either to make dialog less roomy. It just can't be done. ADR is the only way to go if it's too roomy. And then you may have to deal with actors with very little experience getting their lines synced right while doing a good performance, and you spend up editing the lines for hours and being dissatisfied...

Otherwise, I'll say that shotgun mics aren't called shotgun mics for no reason. They have to be POINTED AT the actor :D

Pointed at the actors.... one more raison to have a good boomer on set... And if possible 2 soundpeople... sometimes even 3, en when necessary even 4.



(http://www.dresite.be/)

[Luis_]

You guys have said it all. So the only thing I can say to those looking for help with sound is that when you start planning for your film and you select the camera or cameras, don't forget to select the mics and your recording method.

Also decide what is going to record your sound whether the camera or other equipment.

I'm not saying here that you should record with the built in camera mic, never that as it was mentioned here before.
The reason I mention this is because sometimes I use my laptop with recording software like ProTools, Cubase, or which ever one I decide at the time.


Sometimes I use an external mixer equipped with phantom power for the condenser mics and all and I plug the output of the mixer to the camera or to the audio interface on the laptop depending on the location and what is being recorded.

Anyway, plan out if you think your going to need a shotgun mic and if so test it out before hand and check the results this way you can work on adjusting those details before shooting the real stuff.

Because really when you think about it you put all your efforts into making a great flick and your excited that it's looking great and all, and the lighting is cool..... and that's cool, but does it also sound good? because for me if it doesn't, and I'm focusing all my efforts on the video side of it ending up with no good on the audio side then in my opinion I'm kind of just wasting my time.

The way I see it is if I really care about my film then the sound will be just as important as having the correct lighting.

For me it has to have an equal balance of both look good and sound good.

Being a recording engineer in different music studios for about 10 years before I got into video about 4 years ago makes me anal about sound.
I'm just happy I don't have to deal with any more trumpet players! :violent5:but that's another topic :D


The way I feel and how I do it is, if the sound is not planned out or not sounding good, then I just can't start the visual. It's just so much easier and worth it in post if you capture good. Even if it takes a few more takes.


Also the reason I choose ProTools to record the audio most of the time is because I can add a "compressor", an "eq", a "gate", and what ever other plug-ins I need to the mic line input to get great results. Plug-ins make a big difference. I can boost the levels getting a dry solid sound eliminating that ambient dialogue sound.

Now real quick before I forget about the tip that was mentioned earlier about having the mic in the shot for proximity purposes and then recording without the mic so that it can be masked out or what ever method you use, I have done this and it works pretty good but don't forget to turn off your OIS so that when your shot is locked down, there is no slight drift adjustments in the frame.

I learned my lesson a little while ago with that, as well as shooting the other part without the mic in the scene right away with the same exact light, white balance setting, and before I turn off the camera to offload footage! :Drogar-Shock(DBG):
Fixing this stuff in post is no joke and just a waste of time. :thumbsup:

Though the other guys pretty much covered most of it, I hope you can take a little something from these words,
happy filmage!



oh and one more tip! when you go shoot your stuff, don't forget your headphones! :-HeadPhones(D or you may end up getting kicked in the... :nads:
chin:D