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Jean Dantes
11-12-2009, 05:13 AM
I'm not much a fan of rumours, but I thought I'd post this for all those who are :)

http://43rumors.com/ft3-new-panasonic-microfourthirds-camera-to-be-launched-on-february-2010/

raymondluo
11-12-2009, 05:16 AM
A long ways ahead.

Pelerino
11-12-2009, 05:53 AM
I saw this too, wonder if they will call in the GH1s in part exchange like RED?

JMG100
11-12-2009, 08:30 AM
Pretty cool- looks like it's possible Sony will beat them to it this month:
http://sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-sony-will-launch-a-new-camera-on-november-18/

Revsta
11-12-2009, 09:04 AM
Febuary 10 is hardly a "long" ways ahead. Who wants to bet they upgrade the GH1 and ignore our firmware update requests.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 09:09 AM
Watch this space ... sometimes things appear here first, sometimes not (Panasonic's official near-term product schedule web page):
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpanasonic.jp%2Fschedule.html&sl=ja&tl=en&history_state0=

"GH5"? That's a odd model number. Although in the wacky world of product model numbers, _anything_ is possible!

I'd be very happy if all we got was this ASAP:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1654842&postcount=7

Matty_g
11-12-2009, 09:22 AM
I saw this too, wonder if they will call in the GH1s in part exchange like RED?
Highly, HIGHLY doubt it.

Pelerino
11-12-2009, 09:23 AM
I can see panasonic updating firmware very soon if they are to compete with the sony christmas crowd.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelerino
I saw this too, wonder if they will call in the GH1s in part exchange like RED?


Highly, HIGHLY doubt it.

Agreed!

Chamber005
11-12-2009, 09:52 AM
Weird. I didn't know the GH1 was only 17mbps. My HF200 is 24mbps.

Most prosumer cams are 35mbps, right?

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 09:54 AM
I'll tell you what -- Panasonic will recall all the GH1s and exchange 'em like Red does, as soon as Sony recalls all the EX1s and exchanges them for EX1Rs, and Canon recalls all the 5Ds and exchanges them for 1D Mk IVs, okay?

Why do people even make these suggestions? Sigh.

Okay, back to the topic at hand -- if it's February of 2010, is that a long way off? Think about it, that's probably three and a half months -- about as long as the GH1 has actually been on the market.

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 09:56 AM
Weird. I didn't know the GH1 was only 17mbps. My HF200 is 24mbps.

Most prosumer cams are 35mbps, right?
You're talking about apples, oranges, and lawn furniture.

You cannot compare megabits (as a sole data point) and reach any meaningful conclusions.

The EX1 is 35mbps of MPEG-2. The HMC150 is 21 megabits of H.264. Which one has the better, more robust codec? The 21-megabit h.264.

The 7D has an h.264 codec at 50 megabits. Is it 2.5 times better than the HMC150's codec? No, it's probably about the same.

Then there's the 17 megabits of h.264 in the GH1. Is that almost as good as the 21 megabits of the HMC150? Not within three country miles. It's more like about 6 megabits worth of the HMC150's codec.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 10:31 AM
... if it's February of 2010, is that a long way off? Think about it, that's probably three and a half months -- about as long as the GH1 has actually been on the market.

Hi Barry: What you say is relevant to the US market primarily, but you'll recall the GH1 was available in many parts of the world by mid June '09, and late April/early May '09 in Japan. So, Feb. 2010 isn't completely out of line for some sort of "G" video-capable cam product line addition/change.

Also, wasn't the GH1 originally announced at a big industry trade show back in 9/08? If so then Panasonic has had lots time to gather feedback from potential & real customers & dealers and apply it to whatever internal roadmap they're using.

Meanwhile, it'll be fun if the Sony 11/18/09 announcement rumor turns out to be relevant: We know Sony is capable of making a kick-*ss cam in this space if they want to. Competition is good, sometimes even if it's only in the form of a rumor. ;-)

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 10:37 AM
Yeah, I don't know if a GH5 coming in June 10 is quick or not. Plus, if all we know about it is that it has a "5" in its name, that doesn't even mean it's gonna be in the same class, right? A 1D Mk IV is $5,000, and a 7D is $1700, so who knows, a GH5 might be a $300 microcam or a $3,000 ultra-M43 cam...

Looking forward to the Sony announcement, that's less than a week away! And then, of course, the Red announcements are a couple of weeks after that...

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 10:41 AM
... so who knows, a GH5 might be a $300 microcam or a $3,000 ultra-M43 cam ...

And, if you look at Panasonic's product schedule page linked in my previous post, a "GH5" might even be a rice cooker or an electric toilet! :-)

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 11:57 AM
On a more serious note, it would nice if Sony were to announce on 11/18/09 what I call a stop-the-madness "HD"* video-capable "DLSR" cam.

By that I mean, a cam with a strictly traditional DSLR form factor but without purely "arbitrary" limitations on its capabilities as a "HD" video & audio camera and recording device.

I'm not talking about some ideal, do-all HD cam. I'm talking about "simple" stuff:

For example, the new cam could have a full-time live audio line level outputs, or a headphone jack, without changing its DSLR form factor, with no significant engineering cost.

It could allow the user to turn audio recording AGC off/on (and switch the mic inputs to line level in) without changing its DSLR form factor, with no significant engineering cost.

It could record "HD" video without pulldown; the 7D shows it's possible to do this in a DSLR form factor, and maybe w/o much of a price penalty.

It could record "HD" video at a data rate higher than 17 megabits/sec. Again, the 7D shows it's possible to do this in a DSLR form factor. But, do we know if this can be done for significantly less cost than the 7D body?

It would be nice if it used a studly codec implementation (including B frames, etc.), but this may or may not be possible with current tech in a DSLR form factor, or for the price of a 7D or less.

It would be nice if it supported full-time quality uncluttered "live" HDMI output, but again: This may or may not be possible with current tech in a DSLR form factor, or for the price of a 7D or less.

Most importantly, it can make sense for Sony (or any the other major manufacturers) to do these things _today_ business & profit-wise because customers can always buy whatever camera _most closely_ has the features they want in whatever form factor and at whatever price point makes sense for them.

For example, if you must have XLR audio input connectors built-into the cam, then buy one of the many bigger-than-DSLR cams which include them. If that cam doesn't have a big sensor, too, then better luck until next year, or the year after that. The DSLR physical form factor can be a useful way to differentiate these cams from traditional HD video camcorders in the marketplace.

But this month, Sony _could_ release a "HD" video-capable DSLR which has the best features of the 7D, 5DM2 & GH1 with hopefully none of the simpler of these drawbacks and at a competitive price, too.

I can't think of any technical, business or market reason for _any_ of the manufacturers not to do it.

However, I could be way off base here. :-)

*I've put "HD" in quotes unless the video res is better than poor-quality 720p. :-)

Kholi
11-12-2009, 12:02 PM
12 megapixel sensor. How's this going to work for scaling video? I can't remember who said it, but was it a 13mpx sensor that would be perfect for scaling down the video?

... This isnt' a Sony topic BUT for some reason, they just don't excite me? I can't see the Sony Alpha product being anything incredible... if at all matching what we already have or had.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 12:05 PM
I might be mistaken, but for a single sensor using a bayer pattern, isn't the rule of thumb 1920 x 1080 x ~3.5 = approx. 8 megapixels?


P.S.: If this is true, then I vote for a ~8MP "HD" video-capable DSLR! Speaking for myself only, I don't really need any more than that for stills, especially if it means getting much better HD video. But I fear the MP horse may have left the barn a long time ago ...

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 12:13 PM
But this month, Sony _could_ release a "HD" video-capable DSLR which has the best features of the 7D, 5DM2 & GH1 with hopefully none of their drawbacks and at a competitive price, too.
Not likely. All engineering is a trade-off, it's all a compromise. If any of the manufacturers were able to do something that was better in all ways, with none of the drawbacks of the others, at the same price, then it could only be explained as profound incompetence on the part of the other manufacturers!

These manufacturers pick the compromises that they think are most appropriate.

Look at the last generation of HD camcorders:
Panasonic wanted variable frame rates, and needed 720/60p. So they built a CCD chip that could do that -- and the only way they could do it, was with a lower pixel count. You can't have a 1920x1080 1/3" 60P CCD, with any sort of sensitivity, the engineering on that is just impossible. So they made the compromise they felt they needed to make, to deliver the features they felt people wanted, and used Spatial Offset to up the resolution.

Canon, on the other hand, wanted the highest-pixel-count chip they could get, 1440x1080. Three times the pixel density of the HVX. But the only way to do that was with interlaced chips! So the Canon gets no 720p mode, and a pseudo-24p mode known as 24F, and no variable frame rates.

JVC wanted 720/60p and full-raster chips. Couldn't be done. So they took a wild approach -- two chips side-by-side. The tradeoff? The dreaded split-screen effect.

Sony wanted full-raster chips and 720p and variable frame rates. Not possible on a 1/3" CCD. So they did the only thing they could -- they went CMOS. And along with that came rolling shutter, partial exposure, skew and wobble, etc.

Tradeoffs are all inherent in the engineering industries, you have to pick what's important to you and live with the compromises it engenders (or, just raise the price tag high enough that you can afford better technology).

No matter what any manufacturer introduces, you can be absolutely assured that there were compromises made along the way -- either in capabilities, or side effects, or in the price tag.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 01:06 PM
Hi Barry: I hear you.

I edited my post after you replied. I changed "the drawbacks" to "the simpler of these drawbacks", which is closer to what I meant.

I agree with you that all products have compromises.

The point of my post was that it's time manufacturers moved on and added just a few more no/low cost features in their HD video-capable DSLR cams, more similar to what are the baseline features of most high-end consumer and entry-level prosumer camcorders (e.g.: headphone jack, line level audio I/O, live video out, etc.)

And to answer the question: _I_ get to decide which features are "baseline"! :-)

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 01:21 PM
I'd rather they just ignore the whole DSLR thing, and put the chip and lens mount in a regular video camera. Why reinvent the entire wheel, when all you have to do is chop off the lens and shove the chip in there? :engel017:

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 01:31 PM
Which is why god she invented WD40! :-)

Mattsan
11-12-2009, 01:33 PM
I'd rather they just ignore the whole DSLR thing, and put the chip and lens mount in a regular video camera. Why reinvent the entire wheel, when all you have to do is chop off the lens and shove the chip in there? :engel017:

couldn't agree more - all this pissing about when all we want is a small form factor proper featured camcorder with a 4/3 sensor - The 1st to do this will have a winner- its as if they all know this is the answer but formed a pact to never discuss this holy grail of products!

aghhhhh - someone sort it out now!!

Martti Ekstrand
11-12-2009, 01:41 PM
Why reinvent the entire wheel, when all you have to do is chop off the lens and shove the chip in there?

Or think totally outside the box. How 'bout this

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=370993&catGroupId=34402&surfModel=AG-HMR10

and then this but with a 4/3" sensor and the micro Four Third mount

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=370997&catGroupId=112502&surfModel=AG-HCK10G

and then we can all customize the rig around them exactly to our own whims and preferences :)

Ben_B
11-12-2009, 01:53 PM
I'd rather they just ignore the whole DSLR thing, and put the chip and lens mount in a regular video camera. Why reinvent the entire wheel, when all you have to do is chop off the lens and shove the chip in there? :engel017:

As always.....

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/861/ghx100.jpg


It's a digitally timed rice cooker that shoots AVCHD with B frames to SDHC and/or DVCPro HD to p2...diff models available.

And yes I realize I didn't chop off the full lens...I left extra room for all the magic smoke needed to make the thing work.

Camera Expert
11-12-2009, 01:54 PM
I've had the GH1 for 4 months now so if Panasonic releases it in February it won't affect me at all and the US date would be around April. Still that February date is for the new lenses and although that could also mean a new camera, I wont be surprised if nothing gets released on that date.

I do believe that it would be smart if Panasonic updates features that they know can be updated before what ever Sony releases. If you think about it, the Panasonic G1 is basically an updated, interchangeable lens version of the Sony R1. It's only natural for Sony to want to get back into this market now that they see that Panasonic and Olympus is getting a lot of success.

Anyway, I can't wait to see the next update for the GH and the 5D series.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 02:02 PM
As another follow-on to Kholi's post, it's funny to imagine how Sony will probably figure out how to "screw up" their first entry into the HD video-capable DSLR product space.

Although Sony makes a lot of great products, they also seem to make some amazing goofs along the way.

My favorite is the consistently below-average audio performance of their prosumer cams. It would only cost them pennies per cam to improve it, but somehow they just can't help themselves! ;-)

It's actually kinda of fascinating watching the manufacturers seemingly going out of their way to insure they include at least something dumb in everything they make. Bless them.

ydgmdlu
11-12-2009, 02:10 PM
couldn't agree more - all this pissing about when all we want is a small form factor proper featured camcorder with a 4/3 sensor - The 1st to do this will have a winner- its as if they all know this is the answer but formed a pact to never discuss this holy grail of products!

aghhhhh - someone sort it out now!!
Are you prepared to pay at least $5000 (probably much more) for such a product?

ydgmdlu
11-12-2009, 02:13 PM
As always.....

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/861/ghx100.jpg


It's a digitally timed rice cooker that shoots AVCHD with B frames to SDHC and/or DVCPro HD to p2...diff models available.

And yes I realize I didn't chop off the full lens...I left extra room for all the magic smoke needed to make the thing work.
How many times have you posted that, by now? I'm just curious...

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 02:13 PM
Are you prepared to pay at least $5000 (probably much more) for such a product? I am. Standing in line, credit card waiting. I bought an HPX170 at around $5k, you think I wouldn't spend $5k for the same camera but with built-in shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses? That's the no-brainer of the week, right there... :D

ydgmdlu
11-12-2009, 02:15 PM
I am. Standing in line, credit card waiting.
Well, we know you are, Mr. Super-Early RED Adopter Who Sold His RED Package Before It Got Much Use And Now He Wants a Scarlet! :)

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 02:17 PM
Are you prepared to pay at least $5000 (probably much more) for such a product?

The Barry Greens of the world (there's more than 1 of them?) will gladly pay >$5K for such a cam, and that's cool.

But that's why I keep advocating for a DSLR form factor cam with just a very few relatively minor & cheap to implement improvements in their A/V capabilities: To keep the cost down!

Martti Ekstrand
11-12-2009, 02:18 PM
I am. Standing in line, credit card waiting.

Ditto. But I'll just take a invoice.

JMG100
11-12-2009, 02:22 PM
The Barry Greens of the world (there's more than 1 of them?) will gladly pay >$5K for such a cam, and that's cool.

But that's why I keep advocating for a DSLR form factor cam with just a very few relatively minor & cheap to implement improvements in their A/V capabilities: To keep the cost down!

I'm with Barry- 5k is totally worth it for a cam like that- if they had one right now, I'd buy it without thinking.

As for more usable A/V qualities in DSLR form- I'd love that, too. But why would they want to do that- then we wouldn't buy their HPXs!

Ben_B
11-12-2009, 02:24 PM
How many times have you posted that, by now? I'm just curious...

I dunno...how many different threads have we had talking about the same thing over and over again where this has been relevant?

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 02:24 PM
My plan going forward is to own inexpensive (gear), and then rent expensive (gear) on an as-needed basis.

Of course, I don't advocate this for anyone contemplating buying my like-new slightly-used DSR-450WSL -- an excellent value for those who require its features. ;-)

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 02:27 PM
I dunno...how many different threads have we had talking about the same thing over and over again where this has been relevant?

Hi Ben: Please keep re-posting that graphic! It never gets old! :-)

There's a slight chance that the manufacturers might notice thousands & thousands of posts in which we whine about the shortcomings of current cams. Even if it's only a slight chance, it's well worth it if it has even the slightest positive affect on the design of their subsequent products. The more posts the better!*

* Plus it's good for DVXuser's adv revenue, and there's nothing wrong with that!

Mattsan
11-12-2009, 02:36 PM
yeah I'd pay $8K - Money isnt issue - I want image quality, features and small Form factor - u get me that and i'll give ya my $8K today

Ben_B
11-12-2009, 02:40 PM
If they could pull this off for $3500 like the did with the HMC-150 then that would be perfect.

Chamber005
11-12-2009, 03:06 PM
You're talking about apples, oranges, and lawn furniture.

You cannot compare megabits (as a sole data point) and reach any meaningful conclusions.

The EX1 is 35mbps of MPEG-2. The HMC150 is 21 megabits of H.264. Which one has the better, more robust codec? The 21-megabit h.264.

The 7D has an h.264 codec at 50 megabits. Is it 2.5 times better than the HMC150's codec? No, it's probably about the same.

Then there's the 17 megabits of h.264 in the GH1. Is that almost as good as the 21 megabits of the HMC150? Not within three country miles. It's more like about 6 megabits worth of the HMC150's codec.


I'm not a tech guy, but is mbps just the "robustness" of the codec? I see a dramatic improvement in image quality (less noise) from 5 to 12 to 17 to 24 mbps on my cam. Why is that?

ydgmdlu
11-12-2009, 03:10 PM
I see a dramatic improvement in image quality (less noise) from 5 to 12 to 17 to 24 mbps on my cam. Why is that?
You've totally missed the point. Barry was saying that bit rate has little meaning when you're comparing different codecs and different implementations of those codecs on different cameras.

Within a single codec implementation, on a single camera, of course using higher bit rates will always yield better quality. The higher the bit rate, the less compression used. Less compression means fewer artifacts.

If you care about image quality, then two main things about a codec matter: How efficient it is and how high the bit rate is. If you care about image quality, then there is no reason why you would not want the highest bit rate possible. But you also want a highly efficient codec, which can compress better with less data. Efficient codecs lead to space savings on storage media.

H.264 is more efficient than MPEG-2, which is more efficient than MJPEG. If you decide to go with MJPEG, then the bit rate that you'd want to use would be much, much higher than anything on MPEG-2 or H.264. This was one of the major shortcomings of the Nikon DSLRs: They used MJPEG at shockingly low bit rates, and the image quality suffered for it.

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 03:27 PM
I'm not a tech guy, but is mbps just the "robustness" of the codec? I see a dramatic improvement in image quality (less noise) from 5 to 12 to 17 to 24 mbps on my cam. Why is that?
Yes, within the same codec, adding more mbps will always make the quality better.

What you can't compare is mbps across *different* implementations of the codec, or (especially) between different codecs entirely.

So on an AVCCAM camera, unquestionably the quality goes up as the bitrate goes up -- 21 is better than 17 which is better than 13 which is better than 6.

But 9mbps of AVCCAM is better than 25 megabits of MPEG-2. And 21 megabits of AVCCAM is better than 35 megabits of MPEG-2.

And you can't even count on the same family being equivalent -- AVCCAM uses AVCHD, and the GH1 uses AVCHD, but 21mbps of AVCCAM is embarrassingly better than 17mbps of GH1 AVCHD.

So -- megabits are meaningless as a statistic to compare, unless you're talking about the exact same codec.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 03:47 PM
... As for more usable A/V qualities in DSLR form- I'd love that, too. But why would they want to do that- then we wouldn't buy their HPXs!

When we want a cam with, say, built-in XLR audio connectors, we can use a traditional form factor prosumer handycam or pro shoulder mount camcorder.

If the manufacturers want to make one with a >1/2" sensor for under $5K, great, but given the price of a EX1R, don't hold your breath.*

I'm advocating for a relatively inexpensive (<$2K) DSLR cam w/o dumb limitations.

A DSLR with simple, cheap design improvements like full-time audio out via a headphone jack, audio recording w/o AGC, full-time live video out for monitoring, recording w/o pulldown, a slightly improved codec implementation (like a 7D), swivel LCD _and_ hi-res VF (like a GH1), preferably using a M4/3 mount & sensor (like a GH1), and so forth. Nothing fancy, difficult or expensive to implement.

The physical form factor (DSLR vs. handycam vs. shoulder-mount) will partly determine features and allow for market segmentation. For example, a DSLR doesn't have room for XLRs, but there's no reason to leave out a headphone jack, or to not allow turning off AGC, etc.

Importantly, these simple changes I'm advocating don't interfere in any way with the primary mission in life of a DSLR: Sell as many units as possible to as many (primarily) photography users as possible. It won't cost these customers any more if these features are added. However, the manufacturers will also sell thousands of extra units to prosumer and pro users who want those few simple additional features.

Plus, many of these prosumer & pro customers will _also_ buy or rent -- in _addition_ to the DSLRs they buy -- more capable & more expensive cams for projects which require it, too. It's a win-win.


* But sure, anything's possible!

Isaac_Brody
11-12-2009, 03:48 PM
I bet you that if Sony delivers a product they're gonna tack on some proprietary format or recording method that involves having to invest in some technology no one uses.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Bingo! :-)



Oh, you mean like P2? ;-)

ydgmdlu
11-12-2009, 04:05 PM
Bingo! :-)



Oh, you mean like P2? ;-)
If it's part of a "killer app," then everyone will use it!

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 04:06 PM
OK, sure, then bingo it is! :-)

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 04:10 PM
Actually, Sony will use SxS cards in their new cam, just to drive us all crazy.

Of course, if it means we get variable frame rate stuff in a <$2K cam, even I will finally break down and buy a SxS card! :-)

Isaac_Brody
11-12-2009, 04:39 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of minidisc. :)

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 04:43 PM
Oh, you mean like P2? ;-)
No, he said "technology that nobody uses." So that would mean XDCAM discs. :evil:

P2 is used by 80% of the broadcasters worldwide. :P

ydgmdlu
11-12-2009, 04:44 PM
P2 is used by 80% of the broadcasters worldwide. :P
Like I said, killer app...

Barry_Green
11-12-2009, 04:48 PM
Hey, I'd be plenty happy with AVCCAM and SD cards. If they go P2, it'd better have AVC-Intra on it. That'd make it a killer, killer app -- 10-bit 4:2:2 at visually uncompressed quality with shallow-DOF 35mm look...

But if they go with AVCCAM, that means we'd get cheap SD memory card recording, and I'm fine with that!

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
11-12-2009, 05:09 PM
... P2 is used by 80% of the broadcasters worldwide. :P

Yeah, but, those are the same 10,000 P2 cards being re-used over & over again worldwide. :evil:

[grumble] ... environmentally correct socialist reusable media cr*p ... [grumble] :happy:

dust'n the callipygous
11-12-2009, 05:11 PM
i think it'll be MicroMV

JMG100
11-12-2009, 05:49 PM
When we want a cam with, say, built-in XLR audio connectors, we can use a traditional form factor prosumer handycam or pro shoulder mount camcorder.

If the manufacturers want to make one with a >1/2" sensor for under $5K, great, but given the price of a EX1R, don't hold your breath.*

I'm advocating for a relatively inexpensive (<$2K) DSLR cam w/o dumb limitations.

A DSLR with simple, cheap design improvements like full-time audio out via a headphone jack, audio recording w/o AGC, full-time live video out for monitoring, recording w/o pulldown, a slightly improved codec implementation (like a 7D), swivel LCD _and_ hi-res VF (like a GH1), preferably using a M4/3 mount & sensor (like a GH1), and so forth. Nothing fancy, difficult or expensive to implement.

The physical form factor (DSLR vs. handycam vs. shoulder-mount) will partly determine features and allow for market segmentation. For example, a DSLR doesn't have room for XLRs, but there's no reason to leave out a headphone jack, or to not allow turning off AGC, etc.

Importantly, these simple changes I'm advocating don't interfere in any way with the primary mission in life of a DSLR: Sell as many units as possible to as many (primarily) photography users as possible. It won't cost these customers any more if these features are added. However, the manufacturers will also sell thousands of extra units to prosumer and pro users who want those few simple additional features.

Plus, many of these prosumer & pro customers will _also_ buy or rent -- in _addition_ to the DSLRs they buy -- more capable & more expensive cams for projects which require it, too. It's a win-win.


* But sure, anything's possible!

Hey- I hope you're right and they do it- I would love a DSLR like that!

Jester2138
11-12-2009, 07:37 PM
My prediction is that this DSLR thing will last only a little while longer before "traditional" camcorders are all but forgotten and large sensors in ENG formats become the norm. At least among the professional gear - for consumers that kind of depth of field would only be a problem. I think the form factors required for photography and video work are different. Video cameras need to be operated in a certain manner that is different than still cameras. It's cool now that you can use still cameras to shoot video, but the only cool thing about it, ultimately, is the larger sensors. Eventually that will migrate over to the "normal" video cameras and photographers will get their cameras back :)

JMG100
11-12-2009, 08:47 PM
My prediction is that this DSLR thing will last only a little while longer before "traditional" camcorders are all but forgotten and large sensors in ENG formats become the norm. At least among the professional gear - for consumers that kind of depth of field would only be a problem. I think the form factors required for photography and video work are different. Video cameras need to be operated in a certain manner that is different than still cameras. It's cool now that you can use still cameras to shoot video, but the only cool thing about it, ultimately, is the larger sensors. Eventually that will migrate over to the "normal" video cameras and photographers will get their cameras back :)
Large sensor, ENG format cameras with interchangeable lenses under 10k. I think you're right. Once the companies figure out a business model for these, that will happen- although, I still like the portability of the DSLRs. Let's have it all!!!

Pelerino
11-13-2009, 04:23 AM
I think I may know what's going on here between Sony and Panny?? I reckon Sony have first dibs on the new spec that both companies have worked on together, after that Panny will rerelease the GH1 as a GH1.3 with marketing/ads and a big update, thus giving the general consumer a feeling of well being when they are buying a third gen product this christmas....and us our bloody frame rates and codec!

Kellar42
11-13-2009, 07:50 AM
It may be that the larger sensors will migrate to traditional camera layouts and pros will keep using them because of the better ergonomics, but I doubt they're ever going to take the video out of still cameras again (at least in this price range.)

dcloud
11-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Hey, I'd be plenty happy with AVCCAM and SD cards. If they go P2, it'd better have AVC-Intra on it. That'd make it a killer, killer app -- 10-bit 4:2:2 at visually uncompressed quality with shallow-DOF 35mm look...

But if they go with AVCCAM, that means we'd get cheap SD memory card recording, and I'm fine with that!

they should make a p2 and an sd card version

hmc with interchangeable lens would be great.
Id definitely buy that.

p2 gear is tough for me :P

Jester2138
11-13-2009, 08:24 AM
I doubt they're ever going to take the video out of still cameras again (at least in this price range.)

Probably not, but filmmakers won't be using them.

Chamber005
11-13-2009, 08:25 AM
Yes, within the same codec, adding more mbps will always make the quality better.

What you can't compare is mbps across *different* implementations of the codec, or (especially) between different codecs entirely.

So on an AVCCAM camera, unquestionably the quality goes up as the bitrate goes up -- 21 is better than 17 which is better than 13 which is better than 6.

But 9mbps of AVCCAM is better than 25 megabits of MPEG-2. And 21 megabits of AVCCAM is better than 35 megabits of MPEG-2.

And you can't even count on the same family being equivalent -- AVCCAM uses AVCHD, and the GH1 uses AVCHD, but 21mbps of AVCCAM is embarrassingly better than 17mbps of GH1 AVCHD.

So -- megabits are meaningless as a statistic to compare, unless you're talking about the exact same codec.


Gotchya...

So comparing AVCHD to AVCHD is fine, comparing cams that utilize MPEG-2 to one another is fine, but comparing codecs (as in regard to megapixels therein) shouldn't be done.

So people choose cameras with shoddier codecs because they like the camera itself better? I mean, if the H.264 ('er whatever) codec is typically "best" is there some reason why all the cams don't use it? Why even use MPEG-2 or AVCHD?

Also, I think I asked this before, but why is the EX1's picture better than the HMC150 if the EX1's codec is worse?

John Caballero
11-13-2009, 08:26 AM
Probably not, but filmmakers won't be using them.

Of course they won't. Yeah right!

dcloud
11-13-2009, 08:45 AM
So people choose cameras with shoddier codecs because they like the camera itself better? I mean, if the H.264 ('er whatever) codec is typically "best" is there some reason why all the cams don't use it? Why even use MPEG-2 or AVCHD?

Also, I think I asked this before, but why is the EX1's picture better than the HMC150 if the EX1's codec is worse?

ex1 has a different imaging sensor to the hmc150.. that makes it sharper.

if you put the ex1 image inside an avccam codec, itll be a very good combination
ergo look at barry's xdcamex vs avccam article.

Barry_Green
11-13-2009, 11:20 AM
Gotchya...

So comparing AVCHD to AVCHD is fine
Yes, but no. You've got the right idea, but unfortunately there's a whole different kettle of fish going on with AVCHD. The 1080 AVCHD in the GH1 can't hold a candle to the 1080 AVCHD in the AVCCAM products, so even though they both say AVCHD, they're still not directly comparable!

It's enough to drive someone mad...


So people choose cameras with shoddier codecs because they like the camera itself better? I mean, if the H.264 ('er whatever) codec is typically "best" is there some reason why all the cams don't use it? Why even use MPEG-2 or AVCHD?
Well, as far as SLRs, Canon and Panasonic are using h.264, Nikon was using a low-bandwidth version of MJPG, and Sony hasn't done video yet.

In professional video there's primarily MPEG-2 and h.264 out there. Sony is sticking with MPEG-2, and their reasons are stated as that it's easier to edit, etc. (which, it is).


Also, I think I asked this before, but why is the EX1's picture better than the HMC150 if the EX1's codec is worse?
The EX1 has larger chips with 4x as many pixels on them. And it costs twice as much. The higher price can probably buy a better DSP or other processing, etc.

That codec test was fun to do because it finally separates the camera away from the format. I'd been wanting to test the claims about AVC's superiority forever, but there was no way to do it without involving different camera heads, which compromises the testing to an extreme degree. So with that little external recorder I finally had a way.

Psynema
02-07-2010, 11:53 PM
Many people wonder why it's called GH5...

Very simple


type GH1 into Youtube / Google and guess what comes up?

Guitar Hero, the video game.

Type GH2 into a search engine, you get Guitar Hero 2.

Ditto for 3, 4.

GH5 - keeps Panasonic ahead of Guitar Hero sequels

:kiss:

ajamils
02-08-2010, 07:59 AM
Many people wonder why it's called GH5...


GH5 - keeps Panasonic ahead of Guitar Hero sequels

:kiss:

Not really, Guitar Hero 5 (GH5) came out last year...so Panasonic is still behind GH series :grin:

Isaac_Brody
02-08-2010, 09:10 AM
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=198047