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View Full Version : Red Announcement Disappointment



pmark23
10-30-2009, 09:19 PM
What a letdown.

Nothing but irrelevant specs and renders(!?) for products that STILL have no release date.

That was like a big F U to the Red community.

I like Red and what they're doing, but now they're coming off as amateurs.

Anyone else feel the same?

Nick Walters
10-30-2009, 10:16 PM
I think they make great stuff, and I've never expected a quick delivery of product, so I'm not disappointed....I've heard of more then one person holding off on a purchase to wait for Red-Scarlet, and I try to tell each one to just buy a camera already...it's just a tool anyway :)

thekreative
10-30-2009, 11:15 PM
Wasn't there something right at the first talk of Scarlet that Red One owners get first dibs? I wonder how long for non-Red One owners to get a Scarlet once (if) they start rolling?

David G. Smith
10-30-2009, 11:31 PM
I have to give Mr. Jannard major props... he is a master salesman, I mean, he made a billion bucks selling $200.00 (give or take) sunglasses for Pete's sake! Of course, they are great sunglasses, but they are, just sunglasses. What he sold with the Oakley sunglasses is not sunglasses, but a self image, crystalized in a pair of sunglasses.

Now, with the Red Digital Cinema Cameras, I think that it is pretty obvious that photography and cinematography are one of his passions and I think that he is endeavoring to make a great set of cameras, as is shown by the Red One and I think, if and when these announced cameras come to market they will be very good cameras. However, I am amazed at the pretentiousness of the announcement today. To call it hyperbole, would be generous. As an example, here is the pitch for the "Stage One" Program ("Tattoo"):

"This is the beta testing camera option. This only for those that really want to use and test the camera, not unlike the first RED ONE owners. There will be firmware upgrades and issues to deal with. Every owner of the "TATTOO" cameras will have a direct line to the BOMB Squad and my personal cell number... and will be encouraged to use it. The "TATTOO" program is not cheap. You will NOT be able to trade in your RED ONE. (and here is the part that I really love) You'll keep it because you love it so much that you could never part with it. The RED ONE Serial number will be marked as "Executed" internally at RED so it can never be used for trade-in at any time in the future. But you will forever be on the RED "A-List". STAGE ONE is for HARD-CORE RED users. You make money with your cameras. You recognize that being 1st IS the best deal. You know who you are"

Of course, the cost of being first, is $28,000.00 and you get the privilege of spending another $4500.00 to upgrade your RED ONE to a Mysterium-X sensor. Now, this package does include some accessories that make the package worth better than $35 grand or more and, more important...."Every piece of this system will be tumbled aluminum and differentiated from production units in as many aesthetic ways as possible."

Yeah, after reading that, I was very much taken aback. I am sure that the upcoming RED cameras will be wonderful tools and I so look forward to seeing the images that creative filmmakers create with them, but I just could not get over the feeling that these potentially great filmmaking tools were being sold to us like a pair of $200.00 sunglasses. Yes, they are great sunglasses, but a great pair of sunglasses isn't going to make me a better person, or make all of my dreams come true....

Cassius
10-31-2009, 03:23 AM
But it is going to appeal to a certain market, and he needs funds if he ever wants those great cameras to come off a production line. That's what I'm reading into this more than anything; a greater need for some sales, considering the dry spell between product releases. I suspect the long term plan may not have been thoroughly developed, or it wasn't followed through quick enough.

Giganova
11-02-2009, 12:13 PM
I agree that the "famous Oct 30 announcement" by Red was a HUGE disappointment. Clearly, the Red community disagrees (just go to the Red Forum; I have never seen such a level of excitement!).

The bottom line of the long anticipated release was:

"We hereby announce that we will an announcement on Nov 30."
"Only existing Red One users will be able to purchase an Epic for a long time to come."
We cannot deliver any cameras this year, contrary to what we have said for more than a year".

And of course they released more renders and some photos of a prototype to keep people guessing and the level of excitement high.

Not only was the release a big letdown, I question the entire Red philosophy of promising products for a loooong time, only releasing renders of products that don't even exist yet, in an attempt to keep everyone from buying an _existing_ product. This attitude really pisses me off and does NOT help us: Thousands of potential Red users have locked their money already in accounts and are waiting for a new Red. This could be a real problem for the Red competitors because: who is buying a new high-end camcorder until the new Reds are released? Red is doing us a huge disservice by trying to destroy a market with a non-existing product!

There's a bunch of other "details" that really bother me:

- 7,000 Existing Red One users can trade in their Red One for the same amount they bought it. So Red is not making any profit with the first 7,000 customers. Well, guess who pays the tab: WE, the "other" guys who are allowed to order a new Red some time late next year. I wonder how much cheaper a new Red could have been for us non-Red One users, the guys who were graciously allowed to purchase a camcorder much later.

- The Red Forum is heavily moderated. Every critical post magically disappears after a short while.

So is this Red's original idea of "starting a revolution" and "bringing high-quality camcorders to the masses" by favoring a few and making all the others pay the tap"??

On a related note:
The new generation of digital ARRI camcorders (http://www.arridigital.com/teaser) will be released around the same time -- probably even earlier than the new Red -- at almost the same price. Next summer will be interesting for us film makers!

Until then, I'll try to get some flicks done with my existing camcorder :D

ChipG
11-02-2009, 12:30 PM
It was an announcement about an announcement.

Barry_Green
11-02-2009, 02:19 PM
I agree that the "famous Oct 30 announcement" by Red was a HUGE disappointment.
For those who wanted Scarlet news, certainly. For those who wanted Epic news, they seem much happier.

And EPIC is Red's priority. That is what they've said they are focusing their efforts on producing first.



"We hereby announce that we will an announcement on Nov 30."
"Only existing Red One users will be able to purchase an Epic for a long time to come."
We cannot deliver any cameras this year, contrary to what we have said for more than a year".
Well, that makes things easier. Since you've said Red makes you angry, well, your life just got easier: now you know you don't have to pay attention to anything else about Red for at least another month, right? And that if you need something this year, don't worry about Scarlet, because it won't be here, just go ahead with one of the other many excellent alternatives that are available today.


I question the entire Red philosophy of promising products for a loooong time, only releasing renders of products that don't even exist yet, in an attempt to keep everyone from buying an _existing_ product.
Other companies have used this type of technique to "freeze out" the market, so it's not an exclusive Red thing. Although it does seem that Red has been able to hold on to the waiting faithful longer than other companies could have.

And, frankly, if anyone is delaying a project or delaying a purchase because they're "holding out" for the "miracle product", that's pretty foolish. Just buy something today and go to work. If Red produces your ultimate Scarlet Super-Duper camera at a great price some point in the future, just sell what you bought and put the money towards the Scarlet at that time. And, if you've managed to put your existing camera to work, you'll probably have made some money with it and can afford the Scarlet even easier.

Waiting is a lose-lose.

Not-waiting is a win-win.


This attitude really pisses me off and does NOT help us: Thousands of potential Red users have locked their money already in accounts and are waiting for a new Red.
Then I have advice that I think you should very strongly consider: STOP WAITING. Seriously. If it makes you angry, if it's interfering with your plans, etc., just get off the merry go round and quit waiting.

Go buy something else and get to work. Ignore Red, and their promises and their delays and whatever else is "pissing you off". Buy a 7D or a GH1 with 1/4 of the money you've saved, and go make some great work, and even actually earn some money.

Then, check in every three months or so, and say "what's the latest news on Scarlet?" If people say "we're waiting for the new announcement six weeks from now", then you know you haven't missed anything, and you'll be healthier and less stressed too.

And if they say "it's out", then you can start paying attention to Red again.

But constantly waiting on them? To what purpose? Especially if it's making you mad? How does that benefit you in any way?

If you think they're jerking your chain, take the chain off. You won't lose anything. They've already said there will be no pre-orders for Scarlet, it'll be first-come first-served and they'll have plenty available for everyone when it's finally released. They've already said they're not going to do a beta-test development stage, they're going to release it when it's ready. So don't worry about it. Forget about it. Put it totally out of your mind, and just get on with life.

Of course, if you're one who enjoys speculating, enjoys the merry go round and the thrill ride, get amped when you see new renders, and enjoy the idea that they're listening to suggestions and even incorporating them into the product, then by all means continue participating, that's what ScarletUser is all about. But if it's not fun anymore, just ... change the channel. Tune out.


- 7,000 Existing Red One users can trade in their Red One for the same amount they bought it. So Red is not making any profit with the first 7,000 customers. Well, guess who pays the tab: WE, the "other" guys who are allowed to order a new Red some time late next year.
You're "allowed" to order one right now; Red Ones are in stock and shipping immediately.


I wonder how much cheaper a new Red could have been for us non-Red One users, the guys who were graciously allowed to purchase a camcorder much later.
Again, just go ahead and buy one. They have brand new Red Ones available. Or buy a used one. What's the problem? You're "graciously allowed" to buy one immediately.

OOOOh, you wanted a super-duper-killer-Scarlet-that's-better-than-a-Red-One and you wanted it TODAY and it better be cheap? Ah, yes, I can see how that might be a problem.

Sorry. Ain't gonna happen. Red's focus is (rightly) on their Epic customers. That's who they're targeting their efforts on.

Besides, we don't know what Scarlet even *is*. All we know about it can be summed up in two words: November 30th. Everything else you can just throw out the window, as we've been repeatedly told "things have changed." Scarlet isn't what it was. It isn't a "3K for $3K" wondercam. It's not for Soccer Moms. And it's not gonna be sold at Best Buy. They never promised anyone anything, and they never took a dime of anyone's money, they never entered into a contract to produce whatever particular product people are waiting for, and frankly, it'd be well within their rights to just ditch the entire Scarlet program if they felt like it. Note: I'm not suggesting that they will, I'm just saying that for those who are "waiting", how horrifically would it impact you if they decided Scarlet wasn't worth going forward with? Because they COULD. And if someone's that tied up in it that an announcement like that would shake their world, then I suggest they're too attached and have put all their eggs in a basket that they've been TOLD will change.

Scarlet may not even be marketed to the masses. It might be a $6,000+ product. It might be $10,000+. It'll be whatever they decide they can build. They don't OWE anyone anything.

If that bothers you, I seriously strongly recommend just not going to that site anymore. Just buy a 7D or a 5D Mk II or a GH1, or an HPX300 or EX3, or an HMC150, or whatever other product is out now, and ignore Red until they actually make a product that you want to buy.


- The Red Forum is heavily moderated. Every critical post magically disappears after a short while.
So? Forums are private property. This forum is owned by the same team that owns and administers RedUser and ScarletUser. Since Red uses RedUser as their official communications outlet, it's well within their rights to delete any post they feel like. Their house, their rules. Again, if you aren't comfortable with that, your recourse is to not go there. But they have a right to conduct their forum however they see appropriate, and if that means deleting posts, that's what they'll do. They say so right in the forum rules, about when & why they'll delete posts.


So is this Red's original idea of "starting a revolution" and "bringing high-quality camcorders to the masses" by favoring a few and making all the others pay the tap"??
I've been saying for a while, I don't think they want the masses. I think Scarlet will go upmarket, and the masses can be left to the 7D and the GH1, and whatever "pro" GH1 that Panasonic dreams up, and whatever "pro" 7D (XLH2) Canon dreams up. I could be entirely wrong, but to me it makes a lot less sense to pursue the original course. They've made an absolute fortune catering to the mid-to-high-end, the "masses" are an entirely different can of worms. If I was to advise Red, I'd advise them to forget the low-end Scarlets and concentrate on what they do best. Make a newer entry-level Scarlet at the S35 sensor size, $10k kitted-out, and go from there. Of course, Jim's a billionaire and I'm not, so he doesn't need my advice!

EVERYTHING is subject to change. Including who they want as their target market. That doesn't mean they've changed that, but the point is, they COULD.

You shouldn't be emotionally invested in them to the point where they're drawing such emotional reactions from you. They don't owe any of us anything.


Until then, I'll try to get some flicks done with my existing camcorder :D
Yep. That's been my tactic since the last "everything changed" announcement. There's too much work to do, and too many amazing products to do it with, to get caught up wondering what one company will or won't do, now or ever, for affordable or expensive, etc.

If Red produces a Scarlet that does what I want, I'll buy it the day it's available. If they don't, no sweat -- I'll use whatever else I can afford and is available.

Giganova
11-02-2009, 02:31 PM
Good points & advice, Barry.

dadoboy
11-02-2009, 03:23 PM
Judging by their original price points and rhetoric when the Scarlets were first announced - "3K for 3K", etc. I think RED originally were thinking of the masses. But I think they've realized that it would be impractical for them, mostly because of the cost of manufacture and also the amount of customer service they would have to contend with, so they're back pedaling without admitting that they are.

Still, offering a 3K Raw 2/3" sensor complete camera for less than the cost of a Sony EX1R is fantastic if they can pull it off. It always surprises me to find people complaining about the cost of the 2/3" Fixed, but I find it's mostly newbies who don't realize the relative cost of value.

RED is already perfectly positioned to market to the mid-level cinema market due to their pricing, and I agree it would be a big waste of Jim Jannards money to try and cater to the low-end when they have so many challenges they're grappling with: leave the low end to the Japanese co's - they do it so well!



I've been saying for a while, I don't think they want the masses. I think Scarlet will go upmarket, and the masses can be left to the 7D and the GH1, and whatever "pro" GH1 that Panasonic dreams up, and whatever "pro" 7D (XLH2) Canon dreams up. I could be entirely wrong, but to me it makes a lot less sense to pursue the original course. They've made an absolute fortune catering to the mid-to-high-end, the "masses" are an entirely different can of worms. If I was to advise Red, I'd advise them to forget the low-end Scarlets and concentrate on what they do best. Make a newer entry-level Scarlet at the S35 sensor size, $10k kitted-out, and go from there. Of course, Jim's a billionaire and I'm not, so he doesn't need my advice!

Justyn
11-02-2009, 05:29 PM
I'd say that it's the cavalier nature of the announcement that leaves me wanting. It's done in a thread and seems to be somewhat spontaneously produced, but yet again it couldn't have been. It also had a typo that many people were armed by.. an omission of the Super35 camera format and that's the one that I was interested in. I guess it's a two way street here.. The masses are so eager and rabid and Red is equally willing to fuel that fire. It's not a bad thing for someone to be clamering for your "perfect" camera. Lots of us are waiting for that end all be all, but that's something that's probably beyond human ability. As technology gets better, we get more reliant and also more impatient. Think about how long we had to endure DV before it got out of the way? Now, if something is 2-3 years old it's a dinosaur...

Zak Forsman
11-02-2009, 06:05 PM
Now, if something is 2-3 years old it's a dinosaur...

heck, the D90 is a dinosaur.

Justyn
11-02-2009, 09:46 PM
true.

Gweilo66
11-03-2009, 01:35 AM
" great pair of sunglasses isn't going to make me a better person, or make all of my dreams come true"

Clearly, you haven't experienced the power of properly selected sunglasses. I have all you mention and more. At least when there's enough light to keep from bumping into stuff.

Max Smith
11-03-2009, 01:49 AM
It's kind of funny comparing the recent Red announcement to the recent Sony announcement.

Some people complained about Sony's EX1 upgrade as not going far enough.

Other's complained about seemingly yet another push on the Scarlett.

The truth is both companies are probably just doing what the current rate of technological innovation allows. Sony is making incremental improvements and releasing more often. Red is waiting until they have a higher level of technical achievement before releasing at all.

There's no right or wrong, just different approaches for different types of brand recognition.

ChipG
11-03-2009, 04:15 AM
Scarlet very well could be for the masses, I say that because after Jim's announcement 3 days ago the feedback page for it has had over 700,000 views (in 3 days). Never saw a GH1 or 7D thread get anywhere close to that many views however I do realize lots of boards had topics about it, no centralized meeting place like Reduser has.