SDXC cards

[Denwa]

Originally Posted by Denwa
Hi Jan,

Will the HMC150 be able to use the new SDXC cards coming out soon? If so, will a firmware upgrade be necessary?

64GB or more cards would be very useful to use, especially for event coverage.

I know a number of users are wondering the same thing.

Thank you,

Denny Lajeunesse




Yes they should work, and if not out of the box, an upgrade will do it.

Best,

Jan

There. The answer to an often asked question. :)

[Mike Harvey]

I still want to know what the heck you're shooting that's more than 3 hours long (32GB) and won't let you change cards in that time :)

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi everyone,

I have been corrected the SDXC cards will not work with the Current set of AVCHD products, AG-HMC150, HMC70, and HMC40. Sorry if I mislead anyone.

Best regards,

Jan

[Denwa]

That makes Denny :cry:

I shot an airshow that was a nightmare 5+ hours of heat stroked continuous never get a chance to even drink some water action a few years back. Tape changes were a pain.

Oh well.....

HMMM... can you record via firewire and an SDXD reader?

It's not that big of a deal. I just would have like to be able to use the new cards. Who knows. It may become a failed format do to the fact that half the people haven't even figured out SdHC cards yet. Needing another format their card readers canlt read may have a backlash. This type of thing has happened before. The SDHC format could go above 32GB. The tech is capable of it. It's just the "standard" that states 32GB max. That standard could be changed if SDXD fails. Time will tell. Regardless 32gb cards should drop soon.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Since the AVCHD codec does not travel over 1394, that would be difficult. And for your shoot Denny, you would only have to change cards once, nothing like the 5 tape changes. And you won't have to wait for the tape to thread up to start recording. Time your card change. Much faster than a tape change.

Best,

Jan

[matt s.]

yeah if you have the card handy it probably takes 10 seconds to swap cards and press record again.

[Denwa]

I meant USB and a card reader.

Anyway.. I'll just have to heavily invest in 32gb cards.... once the prices drop. ;)

[Denwa]

yeah if you have the card handy it probably takes 10 seconds to swap cards and press record again.


What if that was the 10 secinds that you missed during the JFK assasination? You can just never tell.

[ZazaCast]

What if that was the 10 secinds that you missed during the JFK assasination? You can just never tell.

Really?

Then buy a second camera and start it 10 seconds before your card change!:happy:

[averan]

yeah if you have the card handy it probably takes 10 seconds to swap cards and press record again.

have you discovered some way to switch cards without turning the camera on and off?!?

the power cycle itself takes 10 seconds.

[KnoxHotch]

technically you don't have to, but it's supposedly safer to power cycle between card changes

[andythefilmer]

What about pre record?

[Mike Harvey]

You don't need to power down the camera to swap cards. So long as you aren't recording, you're fine. As for the prerecord, isn't that recorded to a cache in the camera and written to the card once you actually hit record?

[KnoxHotch]

as long as the card light isn't flashing (being accessed) it's fine to pull it out. I think you're correct that pre-cache is in camera and not on the card.

[Denwa]

I find it interesting that Win7 now has a patch that allows SDHC card readers to handle SDXC cards.

So.. Why can't panasonic release a firmware upgrade for the HMC150 (and HMC40) that would enable the camera to use SDXC?

Looks like it's just a file system issue if you already have an SDHC device.



SDXC Memory Cards for PCs
The exFAT file system used for SDXC is available on Microsoft Windows 7, Windows Vista and Windows XP (SP1 or later) with exFAT file system update (KB955704) available from the Microsoft Download Center.

You can access the SDXC card by using an SDXC compatible USB reader or adapter.
If you want to use an SDXC card in the SD slot on your PC, you need an SDXC compatible driver for the SD slot.*
Contact your PC manufacturer to confirm the SD slot on your PC is compatible with SDXC cards and for availability of the SDXC driver.

* SDXC compatible driver for the SD slot can be downloaded from the following Microsoft sites. However, please check with the manufacturer of your PC to determine if the following download is applicable to your PC before applying the download.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Frankly it just isn't that easy as a lot more testing would have to take place to make sure that it was reliable in all states of the camera. Frankly I fully believe that being able to record for 3 hours on a 32GB card should be plenty of time. And in my opinion, that might be the limit that I would be interesting in waiting for a transfer of data. I don't see the payoff for the R & D that would be required to make this happen. I mean do you really want to have 6 hours of footage on one card? Why wouldn't 2 32GBs be better or at least as good?

Hope that makes sense,

Jan

[Denwa]

Jan, It has more to do with eventual availability and price points of SDHC vs SDXC cards once SDXC becomes the norm.

Your consumer division handles SDXC already (ie TM700). It's just a file system. And for what it's worth, the manufacturers (and Panasonic is one) keep claiming that the SDXC's exFAT file system is more reliable than the FAT32 file system which is on SDHC cards.

From what I have come to understand, you can even reformat an SDHC as exFAT and SDXC as FAT32 (though it will only be readable as 32gb max).

So I guess in the future when SDHC has disappeared I can always take some nice 64GB+ SDXC card and reformat it as a 32GB SDHC. Seems a waste though.

Personally I would prefer that Panasionic become a little more proactive on updates in there pro lines. Since cams change so fast now, buying any pro cam (and the higher end/expensive it is, the worse it is) feels like buying a "high end" computer". Within 1 year it is out of date.

Gone are the days of a camera format/mdoel lasting half a decade or longer, so some updates would keep us happier. I don't feel like buying a camera means recycling it in 2 years. (Brings to mind the half price vari cam fiasco)

[Jan_Crittenden]

I would be willing to be that the camera will be in its last legs before the SDHC is no longer available.

Best,

Jan

[Denwa]

I would be willing to be that the camera will be in its last legs before the SDHC is no longer available.

Best,

Jan

Yes, but at what price point? I can still get ram for a 5 year old computer, but price per megabyte is way more expensive than newer ram.

On another note, it would be nice that if Panasonic offers a rebate item, that they actually deliver it. I have been waiting since September for my 16GB SDHC card. :)

[Jan_Crittenden]

2 things, the price of SDHC cards have routinely come down as they become more entrnched in the market place. Since the 32GB card for all intents and purposes has just started to deliver we should see this card come down in price. We are now looking at the third year of the 4GB card and they are very cheap. While I cannot speak for the memory you have chosen as your example, the SDHC examples seem to offering a pattern.

On the second note. I would assume that you have been in touch with the rebate folks and they have indeed identified you on the list? If you have not done this I suggest that you do. 1-901-346-9941. Verify that you are just waiting. We have indeed have had some delivery problems, and then add to that the fact that all claims do not come in complete and there is the inevitable waiting for paper to exchange. It isn't pretty. All I can say is that I am cured. I will never do another rebate. Sorry for your wait, if you are on the list it shouldn't be too much longer.

Best regards,

Jan

[Denwa]

2 things, the price of SDHC cards have routinely come down as they become more entrnched in the market place. Since the 32GB card for all intents and purposes has just started to deliver we should see this card come down in price. We are now looking at the third year of the 4GB card and they are very cheap. While I cannot speak for the memory you have chosen as your example, the SDHC examples seem to offering a pattern.

On the second note. I would assume that you have been in touch with the rebate folks and they have indeed identified you on the list? If you have not done this I suggest that you do. 1-901-346-9941. Verify that you are just waiting. We have indeed have had some delivery problems, and then add to that the fact that all claims do not come in complete and there is the inevitable waiting for paper to exchange. It isn't pretty. All I can say is that I am cured. I will never do another rebate. Sorry for your wait, if you are on the list it shouldn't be too much longer.

Best regards,

Jan

OK, Thanks. No I did not know their number. I will give them a call. (Next timne, just include the "rebate" in the box. Problem solved, lol.)

As for the SDXC debate. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. :)

[Denwa]

I was in a major retailer today asking about SDHC card pricing. I like to know that in a crunch a I can grab a Panny/Sandisk Extreme, etc and thus like to know current pricing.

They told me that a LOT of SDHC lines were being dumped in favor of the new SDXC cards.

So.. needing more than 3 hours of recording time on my camera is definitely not the issue. Since all these consumer cams are now coming out with 1080-60P modes requiring high storage volumes... It might just be I won't be ABLE to get a 32gb or lower SDHC card in the not so far future.

Seems consumer cams are driving the bus now, not like the old days where pro cams were in the driver seat.

[ggrantly]

Note for the interested:

I checked my local retailers for sd cards a few weeks ago. Not Costco, Best Buy or Walmart had any, not any, class 6 or better cards in stock. Best Buy did have class 4 at some really inflated prices. So the idea of being able to buy cheap local memory went out my window. Your mileage may very.

Grant

[Jan_Crittenden]

Let's see, I went to Best Buy and bought four Class 10 SDHC cards, just a couple of weeks ago with no issue. And as far as the SDHC card going anywhere, this is highly doubtful. Heck the first SDXC card Best,

Jan

[Denwa]

All I'm saying is Panasonic better have plans for a firmware update if SDHC cards become even close to obsolete or my next pro camera will be a sony. And I hate sony.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

I am sorry, but from what the engineers have told me, this is not possible. I know it sounds simple but it is not.

Best regards,

jan

[ggrantly]

Jan,

Must be different in NJ. Everything in Washington State is slower, even our memory cards.

Grant

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi Grant, So the good news is that you can use the class 4 cards with the cameras. Or you can get online which is what I normally do but the need came up too quickly for me to do that. On line I have gotten an over night shipment from the larger resellers.

Best,

Jan

[Barry_Green]

Guys, keep in mind that there are about seven trillion SD devices out on the market right now. Pretty much every consumer still camera in existence uses SD or SDHC. It would certainly seem a safe bet to say that there will be some pretty strong demand for SDHC for several years.

[David W. Richardson]

If you need to shoot 5+ hours continuous of something, can't beat the DVX100a for that. Connect a cheapo MiniDV camcorder to it via firewire, set the camera to the chain setting, and you can shoot continuously until you wear the heads out. Shoot in squeeze mode, uprez, and you're good to go! :)

[Denwa]

Well, I suppose we will be reformatting SDXC cards as Fat32 in order for these cams to have media in the future.

Jan, no offence, but I have a hard time seeing how it can be an engineering issue when SDXC is a filesystem. My SDHC readers on my win7 system are now magically SDXC readers all via a small update from Microsoft.


My main concerns are: Availability and the ability to use cards that you have purchased for newer cameras so you aren't in the middle of a shoot sorting out what is and is not an SDHC/SDXC card.

[Barry_Green]

My SDHC readers on my win7 system are now magically SDXC readers all via a small update from Microsoft.
Have you actually read an SDXC card on an SDHC reader, through using some software update? Do you have SDXC cards to test that with? I haven't, but this just doesn't sound right. There are more differences than just a file system.

EDIT: Denwa, I just don't think you're right on this. A little Wikipedia surfing shows that SDXC has limited compatibility with SDHC readers. An SDHC reader can only access SDXC cards that use the slower UHS104 speeds, but SDHC readers/devices are *incompatible* with SDXC cards which use the faster SD 4.0 spec.

Look at this page, from the SD Card association:
http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdxc/using_sdxc

In the graphic, you can flat-out see that they're saying that SDXC cards are *only* compatible with SDXC devices. That arrow only goes to one area on the chart, and that's to the SDXC-compatible device. And they say on it, "look for the SDXC logo."

They also say:

SDXC memory cards can be used only with SDXC host products

It also says:

Contact your PC manufacturer to confirm the SD slot on your PC is compatible with SDXC cards and for availability of the SDXC driver

Sounds to me like there may be some limited compatibility, but definitely not across-the-board compatibility, and just because you download a firmware update that doesn't "magically" make your older SDHC slot become an SDXC slot. The firmware update adds support for the SDXC card's file system, but that doesn't change the hardware to make it able to read SDXC cards, at least as far as SD 4.0 cards goes.

In fact, now I'm wondering if there's any compatibility at all between an SD-only slot on a PC, and SDXC cards. If the slot is made to support the SDXC hardware, then you'd need the firmware update to download to add the file system so that Windows 7 could read it. That doesn't mean that an old card slot is "magically" becoming SDXC, it means that an SDXC-compatible slot, which previously wouldn't work with SDXC cards, now can work with them because file system support is now added.

Note also that for USB readers, it specifically says "SDXC-compatible readers. Installing a firmware update won't make your existing SDHC USB readers work for SDXC cards. It only applies to a direct on the computer slot.

My new laptop has such a slot, so if I had an SDXC card I'd try it...

[accelv]

Is there a firmware update for SDHC Class 10 cards?

[Denwa]

Have you actually read an SDXC card on an SDHC reader, through using some software update? Do you have SDXC cards to test that with? I haven't, but this just doesn't sound right. There are more differences than just a file system.

EDIT: Denwa, I just don't think you're right on this. A little Wikipedia surfing shows that SDXC has limited compatibility with SDHC readers. An SDHC reader can only access SDXC cards that use the slower UHS104 speeds, but SDHC readers/devices are *incompatible* with SDXC cards which use the faster SD 4.0 spec.

Look at this page, from the SD Card association:
http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdxc/using_sdxc

In the graphic, you can flat-out see that they're saying that SDXC cards are *only* compatible with SDXC devices. That arrow only goes to one area on the chart, and that's to the SDXC-compatible device. And they say on it, "look for the SDXC logo."

They also say:


It also says:


Sounds to me like there may be some limited compatibility, but definitely not across-the-board compatibility, and just because you download a firmware update that doesn't "magically" make your older SDHC slot become an SDXC slot. The firmware update adds support for the SDXC card's file system, but that doesn't change the hardware to make it able to read SDXC cards, at least as far as SD 4.0 cards goes.

In fact, now I'm wondering if there's any compatibility at all between an SD-only slot on a PC, and SDXC cards. If the slot is made to support the SDXC hardware, then you'd need the firmware update to download to add the file system so that Windows 7 could read it. That doesn't mean that an old card slot is "magically" becoming SDXC, it means that an SDXC-compatible slot, which previously wouldn't work with SDXC cards, now can work with them because file system support is now added.

Note also that for USB readers, it specifically says "SDXC-compatible readers. Installing a firmware update won't make your existing SDHC USB readers work for SDXC cards. It only applies to a direct on the computer slot.

My new laptop has such a slot, so if I had an SDXC card I'd try it...


Barry, I even found reference to what I was saying on Panasonic's own website. I'll have to find that info again.

[Denwa]

Is there a firmware update for SDHC Class 10 cards?

Yes.