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View Full Version : PP CS4 VS. Vegas



robzoo
10-25-2009, 04:05 PM
I am thinking about switching over from Vegas9 to PP CS4 and was wondering what some GH1 users opinions about CS4 were. I want to be able to incorpoate AE and PS into certain projects, but see a lot of people having issues with AVCHD editing on CS4. I dont want to jump into another NLE if it is going to hinder more than help. Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.

Park Edwards
10-25-2009, 04:20 PM
only flaw is the pulldown. other than that, you can easily edit avhd with ppro with the patch.

robzoo
10-25-2009, 05:39 PM
I am going to use NeoScene to remove pulldown, if that makes a big difference.

tflak
10-25-2009, 05:44 PM
And pulldown only applies to 1080. I've found that just dropping 720p 60 into a 24p timeline in Premiere CS4 works fine. That said, CS4 (on a Mac at least) can be finicky if you're doing any dynamic linking between Premiere and AE.

Park Edwards
10-25-2009, 05:45 PM
ahh, yep, forgot that 720p has no effect on pulldown...err. but i use cineform too. what's your rig? maybe i can compare specs and give you my opinion. i also use cineform for pulldown.

ajamils
10-25-2009, 06:16 PM
is NeoScene really worth $100 ? I'm a newbie to video editing but I do not see any difference between the 1080 60i file from GH1 and the 24p file converted by Neoscene. I have even tried dropping both files in Vegas and rendering a mp4 file and I was unable to distinguish between them. Am I missing anything ?

robzoo
10-25-2009, 06:37 PM
XPS w/ Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 (2.4GHz/1066Mhz FSB/3M L2 Cache)
320GB 7200rpm Sata II
4gb ram

Park Edwards
10-25-2009, 06:49 PM
XPS w/ Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 (2.4GHz/1066Mhz FSB/3M L2 Cache)
320GB 7200rpm Sata II
4gb ram

psht, you're plenty fine.

Park Edwards
10-25-2009, 06:51 PM
is NeoScene really worth $100 ? I'm a newbie to video editing but I do not see any difference between the 1080 60i file from GH1 and the 24p file converted by Neoscene. I have even tried dropping both files in Vegas and rendering a mp4 file and I was unable to distinguish between them. Am I missing anything ?

yes. well, i can't really speak for vegas. but to remove pulldown, cineform is flawless. the editing is smooth too. maybe vegas removes pulldown properly. are talking about the 1080 24p mts files or the 720p 60p? and i'm also on pc. so if you're going off mac, i can't really give an opinion on it's performance.

ajamils
10-25-2009, 06:55 PM
yes. well, i can't really speak for vegas. but to remove pulldown, cineform is flawless. the editing is smooth too. maybe vegas removes pulldown properly. are talking about the 1080 24p mts files or the 720p 60p? and i'm also on pc. so if you're going off mac, i can't really give an opinion on it's performance.

I'm on PC too. I've been using Vegas 9 but I got PP CS4 yesterday. As for the video, I'm talking about 1080 24p. I see no difference between raw files from the camera (24p in 60i container) vs the 24p files produced by Neoscene after pulldown removal. That's why I was wondering what's the use of doing the pulldown removal if there is no difference (at least to my eyes) between the two videos.

Park Edwards
10-25-2009, 06:59 PM
yeah, must be a vegas thing. or maybe you have a magic trick. but premiere pro can't remove pulldown and there's a profound significance between cineform and adobe. then again, are you stepping through it frame by frame? because when i first got some raw gh1 footage exported the files through premiere, it looked fine, sort of, but then i eventually saw repeated and or skipped frames when playing it back.

robzoo
10-25-2009, 08:58 PM
If I'm not mistaken Vegas doesnt actually do pulldown. It has the option to set your time to a 24p but it really only applies to footage you have that has already been pulled ie: through cineform. Vegas automatically turns your footage to a 30p from whatever you have. Vegas loves the converted cineform files, and will probably make your editing process a little smoother.

ajamils
10-26-2009, 05:38 AM
I never said Vegas does pull down. I'm just comparing 60i video vs 24p videos (regardless of the NLE) and I don't see the difference and that is why I was wondering if it was worth spending $100 on Cineform when *visually* the end result is the same.

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 09:59 AM
most likely when you stick a 60i file in a 24p timeline and export it, you're not going to see a difference right away. if you scrub through the file after you export it you'll see repeated frames or dropped frames. i noticed it especially in busy situations like cars and people walking. yes, visually cineform is wayyyy better than dropping a 60i file in a 24p timeline.

ajamils
10-26-2009, 10:14 AM
can you actually see the difference in videos (when played back on monitor or TV) between a 60i (24p inside a container) Vs 24p file ? If so, could you please post a link ? I would love to see it because so far I have found zero evidence that would make me interested in spending $100 to convert 60i file to true 24p.

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 10:18 AM
sure, i'll take a file and render it out, give me like 5mins

ajamils
10-26-2009, 10:49 AM
sure, i'll take a file and render it out, give me like 5mins

here were some raw videos that I uploaded. You can convert any of them

http://www.armjamil.com/gh1_videos/

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 10:59 AM
i just went outside and filmed some cars. watch the cars and you'll see a huge difference. it almost looks like the car(s) are going one step forward, then one step back then forward again. it's incredibly jerky.

http://www.adrive.com/public/2522b5e11c58458cc2c70e60abd330de2d4e82c93e74caa75d 5d8726be17c2d8.html

ajamils
10-26-2009, 11:24 AM
i just went outside and filmed some cars. watch the cars and you'll see a huge difference. it almost looks like the car(s) are going one step forward, then one step back then forward again. it's incredibly jerky.

http://www.adrive.com/public/2522b5e11c58458cc2c70e60abd330de2d4e82c93e74caa75d 5d8726be17c2d8.html

How did you create this ? I've never see this much jerk on a regular 60i video. Did you do anything extra to magnify the issue ?

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 11:31 AM
nope. I just sat the 60i avchd file in a 24p timeline. then deinterlaced, exported.
i'm wondering if you're getting a couple of things confused here. the reason for cineform is to extract 24p from the 60i file. if you playback a 60i file then you're going to get 60i. and it'll be nice and smooth, although, it won't look 24p which is the reason for removing pulldown. but if you want 24p from the 60i file, only way to get it is to remove pulldown and get true 24p.

ajamils
10-26-2009, 11:35 AM
I understand the reason for removing the pull down (i.e to get 24p out of 60i) but I do not understand the need for it because my experience (which is not much) with both types of files and watching them side by side. I could not tell one from another or what I achieved (in terms of quality) by removing the pull down........... :confused:

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 01:33 PM
I understand the reason for removing the pull down (i.e to get 24p out of 60i) but I do not understand the need for it because my experience (which is not much) with both types of files and watching them side by side. I could not tell one from another or what I achieved (in terms of quality) by removing the pull down........... :confused:

sorry man, i really don't know what you're trying to say. maybe someone else can chime in. or maybe it's still vegas is better?

if you don't want 24p from the 60i file, then don't remove pulldown. if you can't tell the difference between 60i and 24p, then it doesn't matter for you. however, if you want true progressive frames from a 60i file, you have to remove pulldown, and cineform does that. adobe does not. you can't simply put a 60i file and output to 24p and get acceptable results. are you outputting that 60i file to 24p or just outputting it to 30p?

SLoNiCK
10-26-2009, 03:11 PM
Car3o

24p in 60i container and native 24p have equal smoothness of motion just because they do have same amount of motion phases every second - 24. The main reason people remove pulldown is ease of postproduction. Problem with non-converted 24p-in-60i are:

1) Processing overheads. 60i needs 25% more calculations for any effects, 25% more bitrate (and space) for same "per frame" quality with intermediate codecs.

2) Messed interlaced structure after edit. If NLE system treats 24p footage as 60i you probably won't be able to remove pulldown after you finish cuts. Every temporally developing element (like moving title, transition, fast changing color correction) added on time will have 60i interlaced structure, not 24p-over-60i. So you will loose 25% of its original motion phases after fair pulldown removal. Besides, you can simply shift pulldown sequence during editing. So you'll have to make some complex deinterlacing or leave it in 60i in hope that player will solve the problems.

3) Unpredictable result on different playing and viewing devices. Due to 2) player may try to restore 60p from 60i by scaling fields, deinterlace to 30p, or remove pulldown to get 24p. But only the first variant will cause no problems (if I didn't forget something)

Scenarios for work with 24p-in-60i, from best to worst:
1) Remove pulldown in raw footage, edit native 24p
2) Select "24p over 60i" project preset if your NLE soft affords it
3) Work in 60i
4) Drop raw footage in 24p project.
The last variant is the worst because usually NLEs have some simple deinterlacing methods for realtime work. Looks like in Car3o's case NLE just threw all interlaced frames (2 of every 5) and replaced missing one with duplicate of neighbor to get 24 fps. Watch video frame by frame: 3 changing frames, 1 dupped, 3 changing frames, 1 dupped and so on...

yabyum
10-26-2009, 03:23 PM
Dang... I didn't know about this pulldown stuff. Is there a free way to do this on a PC without buying Neoscene?

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 04:00 PM
Slonick,

okay great. so what does this all mean for ajamils? he doesn't see a difference between 60i and cineforms 24p. so, i can't suggest using cineform. sorry.

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 04:03 PM
Dang... I didn't know about this pulldown stuff. Is there a free way to do this on a PC without buying Neoscene?

i think there is, but it's really not worth the hassle. i've seen tutorials, but it takes ages to convert and a pain in the ass. it's probaby the best $100bux spent.

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 04:04 PM
Car3o

24p in 60i container and native 24p have equal smoothness of motion just because they do have same amount of motion phases every second - 24. The main reason people remove pulldown is ease of postproduction. Problem with non-converted 24p-in-60i are:

1) Processing overheads. 60i needs 25% more calculations for any effects, 25% more bitrate (and space) for same "per frame" quality with intermediate codecs.

2) Messed interlaced structure after edit. If NLE system treats 24p footage as 60i you probably won't be able to remove pulldown after you finish cuts. Every temporally developing element (like moving title, transition, fast changing color correction) added on time will have 60i interlaced structure, not 24p-over-60i. So you will loose 25% of its original motion phases after fair pulldown removal. Besides, you can simply shift pulldown sequence during editing. So you'll have to make some complex deinterlacing or leave it in 60i in hope that player will solve the problems.

3) Unpredictable result on different playing and viewing devices. Due to 2) player may try to restore 60p from 60i by scaling fields, deinterlace to 30p, or remove pulldown to get 24p. But only the first variant will cause no problems (if I didn't forget something)

Scenarios for work with 24p-in-60i, from best to worst:
1) Remove pulldown in raw footage, edit native 24p
2) Select "24p over 60i" project preset if your NLE soft affords it
3) Work in 60i
4) Drop raw footage in 24p project.
The last variant is the worst because usually NLEs have some simple deinterlacing methods for realtime work. Looks like in Car3o's case NLE just threw all interlaced frames (2 of every 5) and replaced missing one with duplicate of neighbor to get 24 fps. Watch video frame by frame: 3 changing frames, 1 dupped, 3 changing frames, 1 dupped and so on...

sorry, but this isn't the case. 60i in premiere reognizes the files at 29.97. maybe vegas doesn't. unless pulldown is removed the playback between the two are no longer equal.

SLoNiCK
10-26-2009, 09:53 PM
Car3o

I was mainly answering this:
ajamils
I never said Vegas does pull down. I'm just comparing 60i video vs 24p videos (regardless of the NLE) and I don't see the difference and that is why I was wondering if it was worth spending $100 on Cineform when *visually* the end result is the same.

Benefits of Cineform workflow don't lay in plane of better visual perception, it's all about proper and efficient processing. Especially in case you can't tell NLE that there is 24p in that 60i footage.

yabyum

Well, you can try some AVISynth scripting. Or tell the problem to somebody making one of these dozens of free batch video converters, may help.

robzoo
10-26-2009, 10:12 PM
Vegas recognizes the dropped footage at 29.97 also, and I thought one the main reasons you want to pull your footage to a native 24p is to give it the "film look" and because if you ever planned on transfering your footage to film you absolutely would not want it to be 30p. If ajamils is only planning to put out web based footage then 30p would be just fine for him, especially if he doesnt see any difference in film quality and doesnt want to shell out the money.

Park Edwards
10-26-2009, 10:21 PM
Vegas recognizes the dropped footage at 29.97 also, and I thought one the main reasons you want to pull your footage to a native 24p is to give it the "film look" and because if you ever planned on transfering your footage to film you absolutely would not want it to be 30p. If ajamils is only planning to do put out web based footage then 30p would be just fine for him, especially if he doesnt see any difference in film quality and doesnt want to shell out the money.

that's where i'm confused by his comparison. if he's just comparing a 60i file to cineforms 30p file, then no, you'd notice no difference. i mistakenly did not convert to 24p using cineform and if you don't do that, there's no reason to use cineform at all.

ajamils
10-27-2009, 05:44 AM
that's where i'm confused by his comparison. if he's just comparing a 60i file to cineforms 30p file, then no, you'd notice no difference. i mistakenly did not convert to 24p using cineform and if you don't do that, there's no reason to use cineform at all.

There is nothing to be a confused about. Here is the scenario

1) Two video clips


One from GH1 (unprocessed) filmed at 1080i (24p in 60i container)
One from GH1 filmed at 1080i. Pulldown removed with Neoscene

2) Neither file is processed or edited in NLE

3) Played both files on TV and computer

Result:

Do not see any difference between 24p (in 60i container) or proper 24p video (achieved by doing the pulldown removal with Neoscene)

Question:

If there is no **visual** difference between the two files than the only reason to remove pull down is to make file more compatible (easier) to edit in NLE ?

SLoNiCK
10-27-2009, 06:32 AM
Yes. Maybe 60i will even look little more jerky.

Park Edwards
10-27-2009, 09:18 AM
There is nothing to be a confused about. Here is the scenario

1) Two video clips


One from GH1 (unprocessed) filmed at 1080i (24p in 60i container)
One from GH1 filmed at 1080i. Pulldown removed with Neoscene

2) Neither file is processed or edited in NLE

3) Played both files on TV and computer

Result:

Do not see any difference between 24p (in 60i container) or proper 24p video (achieved by doing the pulldown removal with Neoscene)

Question:

If there is no **visual** difference between the two files than the only reason to remove pull down is to make file more compatible (easier) to edit in NLE ?

have you never even edited either in a NLE? it seems you've only played them back from the camera or directly on your hdd? do some tests man. take a raw mts and drop in a NLE and try to export 24p. and you'll now see why cineform is used. if you don't do any of the former or see a difference in quality, well that's your choice. forget cienform and keep your workflow the way it is.