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View Full Version : Canon is listening. Will Panasonic Follow?



shzr
10-20-2009, 08:36 AM
Canon is working on a 24p firmware update.
Will panasonic take care of us as well??

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0910/09102003eos5dfirmware.asp

noirist
10-20-2009, 09:30 AM
Go Panasonic! We're counting on you for 24Mbps AVCHD and 1080p24 without pulldown. Gambatte kudasai!

SPZ
10-20-2009, 09:46 AM
Yes, seems like we loyal Panasonic costumers are the ones left in the dust in this times of video revolution... No choice but to jump ship...

shzr
10-20-2009, 11:18 AM
I regret getting a gh1, should have gotten the gf1 since the 1080i aint cutting it anyways.

SLoNiCK
10-20-2009, 11:23 AM
noirist

Better if it will be 1280+ 24/25(for PAL) JPEG with bitrate pushed up to the limit of SDHC class6 card. It's easier to edit and it's something that current hardware in GH1 can handle. It shoots 12Mpix JPEG stills at 3 fps (36 Mpix/sec) with only SD card as limiting factor. Something like 25 1536x864 JPEGs per sec are even an easier job, and we'll get some nice footage with ability to stab and reframe it a little.

Camera Expert
10-20-2009, 12:10 PM
To be fair, the GH1 outputs a true 720 60p signal. The GF1’s chip outputs 30p and doubles it in the codec. In other words, the GH1’s 720p mode is infinite times better. The GH1's 720 60p mode is also better than the 7D's.

With that said, I also hope Panasonic takes Canon example and add more 1080 modes. The least they can do is fix the 24p mode. All people ask is native 24p from the beginning. We shouldn't need to deal with removing pull down.

PappasArts
10-20-2009, 02:02 PM
If you have any doubts whether the gh1 is capable of delivering an "A" performnace image; then you should look at this video.

http://vimeo.com/6942561

From the day I decided to go with the GH1, months ago after testing the 5DMII, I have not regretted it once; even for a second. Which is a first for me with cameras. This camera delivers an image that is far an above anything we had before anywhere near this price range; and that, I dont want to loose perspective of... It can hold it's own against very expensive systems and not be ashamed.

I do notice one thing. All the actual people who do and deliver; have been the tiniest group of complainers. The ones who don't, or "the neophytes", have been the loudest complainers in the GH1 bashing/FUD arena IMHO.......... Hmmm interesting!


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com

kaplanfx
10-20-2009, 02:48 PM
In other words, the GH1ís 720p mode is infinite times better.

By "infinite" you mean "twice as good" right? :engel017:

-kap

shzr
10-20-2009, 03:22 PM
Anyways, my point was to bring the news to the panasonic community in hopes that panasonic will take care of their customers as other companies have.

In regards, to the "complainer" comment. Its sad that those that offer an honest critique are labeled "complainers." If it wasn't for "complainers" the MarkII 5D would not have gotten full controls and now 24p etc.

I know I should be careful with using the word Fact, but I will use it now.

FACT: Panasonic is not taking care of their clients the way Canon is, but that can change.

noelsphoto
10-20-2009, 03:40 PM
I've been using my gh1 with a nikon 35mm f2.0 lens in worst low/dull light indoor conditions. I've been getting superior results. Something my sd1 never gets close to. I'm not sure if 24mb/s is much better than 17mlb/s. I remember canon's camcorders were reviewed. Results are there weren't much of a difference between 24/17mb/s. I think this is the max @ this time AVCD will produce. I'm very satisfied with my results. No mudds etc. If one is looking for sharper results, you'll have to step up to canon's / sony's expensive models. Then sacrifice all the positive things about the gh1. Ironically, I sure don't mind a firmware to 24mb/s though. IMHO 50mb/s will equal any highest pro cams with this cam.

themartist
10-20-2009, 05:56 PM
I do notice one thing. All the actual people who do and deliver; have been the tiniest group of complainers. The ones who don't, or "the neophytes", have been the loudest complainers in the GH1 bashing/FUD arena IMHO.......... Hmmm interesting!


BEAUUUUUUTIFULLY said. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

noirist
10-20-2009, 06:08 PM
The maximum bitrate that the AVCHD specification allows is 24Mbps. Since the GH1 is fundamentally an AVCHD device, that's the most that we could reasonably hope to get in a firmware update. Given the high level of compression offered by AVCHD, I think that an extra 7Mbps on top of our current 17Mbps (+40%) would be very noticeable.

vip77
10-20-2009, 06:12 PM
I have a GH1 and think it's fantastic.
I also briefly tested out a 7D and thought it was nice.
Altogether, I would say I probably prefer the GH1's sleekness, simplicity, etc.

But...

Isn't this a case of diminishing returns in sticking with the mFT system?
-Most of the faster FT and mFT lenses are overpriced due to design.
-And the sensor can't get any bigger, so essentially the best Panasonic can do is up the bitrate.

While Canon is obviously listening very closely.
-An investment in Canon glass will last many years.
-And the sensor sizes are already big, but technically can improve.
-And the hardware will improve soon enough.

So looking ahead what's better:
a GH1(?) with 50 mb/s bitrate OR a Canon ?D with an Aps-c or FF with Digic V optimized for video???

jamesjjs
10-20-2009, 07:17 PM
You need to ask what is of primary importance right now:

1. Portability? - Small, lightweight, can fit in a small bag
2. Stealth? - Does not bring attention to itself, plus articulating screen helps for discreet angles.
3. Electronic Viewfinder? - Ability to shoot video through EVF helps tremendously in stability and in bright light
4. Autofocus? No other VDSLR can do this - but I think the upcoming Nikon 1D MkIV can do this - but at USD 5199 MSRP body only
5. Recording time? - GH1 shoots until card is full (non EU models though)
6. Reliability? - So far no overheating issues
7. Sound? - Full stereo (but unfortunately with AGC)
8. Versaltile? - Can adapt almost any lens with the help of adapters (but you lose autofocus and any electronic communication with the lens)
9. Quality? - Out of the box, the GH1 with the kit lens provides an incredibly rich experience with a 10X zoom that is in a useful range, and the image quality is very good. And it is noiseless, with somewhat quick autofocus

So for me, the GH1 is a keeper because I value all the points above. Yes, it has its weaknesses - the biggest for me was FPN (Fix Pattern Noise) in low light - but I managed to minimize that with "burning in" the sensor.

Also, the future of mFT is looking brighter - seems that more camera manufacturers (Fuji is rumored to be joining) are coming to the party, so the lens selection should increase over time. While prices are pretty stiff, the quality has been impressive.

But I understand if you have a legacy of Canon or Nikon glass - GH1 would be less compelling

Ben_B
10-20-2009, 07:30 PM
GH1 works fine with most canon and nikon glass, especially nikon (aperture adjustments.)

Also, Canon 1d mk IV not Nikon.


Lastly: yes Panasonic, take care of us, come on. Wow. Just wow.

TimurCivan
10-20-2009, 07:38 PM
panasonic IS listening. if history is any indicator...

these updates take time.

you guys cant let the speed with which technology has advaced lately cloud the fact that it will still take some time for these upgrades updates to happen.

jamesc
10-20-2009, 08:03 PM
i do notice one thing. All the actual people who do and deliver; have been the tiniest group of complainers. The ones who don't, or "the neophytes", have been the loudest complainers in the gh1 bashing/fud arena imho.......... Hmmm interesting!

+2

Revsta
10-20-2009, 08:09 PM
More on this "burning in" the sensor to avoid FPN?

shzr
10-20-2009, 08:21 PM
More on this "burning in" the sensor to avoid FPN?

I returned one gh1 for another. The one I have now definately has less obvious FPN. I really do think it is different for each camera, but many disagree.

shzr
10-20-2009, 08:32 PM
I know you all like your Gh1's and it is a good camera-corder. But I bring the link up, wondering if Panasonic is willing to make the GH1 better in the same way Canon made the 5D better w/ updates.

Noirist, thank you for pointing out that going from 17 to 24mpbs is a 40% increase. That's huge!

Panasonic has been too quiet for my taste. And if they ever do decide to bless us w/ higher bitrates(& other fixes), all of you are going to update your firmware. When/If that happens, you have us "complainers" to thank. :)

JerryB
10-20-2009, 08:57 PM
I can't see how Panasonic doesn't realize that unless they offer native 24p for 720 and 1080 AVCHD that they will be losing most of their potential/current customers to the 7D & 5D. No ext. monitoring and a 17mbs codec is fine for me at $1500. If I would be able to get native 720/24p, then this camera would be a great investment. Even with all the conversion methods, mathematically 60p is not going to look as good as native 24p. I've done countless tests myself and so have others. I also have a fast computer that can (for the most) handle AVCHD. So having to remove pulldown for 1080 is an incredible waste of time.

I bought the GH1 because it !!WAS!! Panasonic. I formerly owned a DVX100b and shoot exclusively on an HVX200 at film school. I loved the image Panasonic puts out and have found there cameras reliable for capturing a filmic look. I for one am not the type of camera buyer who purchases a new camera every year. Being a recent student I purchased the GH1 for it features and price and can't afford to buy a new cam every year, even if it's just the body. I believe I'm probably not the only one in this situation.

I assume there will be many appealing factors to the GH2 (better codec, faster auto focus, better processer, etc) so Panasonic should not be afraid that if they add the 24p that it will dissuade people from purchasing the GH2.

I think we need to continue to find ways to get the word out about the communities unhappiness with this small (easily fixable) issue. Please let everyone know if there are any other suggestions on how to get the word out to Panasonic like the 5D Mark II people did with Canon. The petition was great. We need to keep the fire under Panasonic with things like that.

John Caballero
10-20-2009, 09:30 PM
The GH1 has the Panasonic "Mojo". 1080p native, 720p24 and mjpeg 24p would be great in a firmware upgrade.

Park Edwards
10-21-2009, 01:49 AM
Mk2 Sept 2008
Gh1 July 2009

really? it's going to be just shy of two years and the mk2 is just now getting a 24p firmware. the gh1 has barely been out 2months. where are your heads?

Ben_B
10-21-2009, 02:05 AM
Ummm...our heads are in the place that it looks like they're supporting a product that's been out for 2 years with firmware updates and our new product is just gonna get ignored till the next piece of hardware comes out..

Ozpeter
10-21-2009, 03:41 AM
I can't see how Panasonic doesn't realize that unless they offer native 24p for 720 and 1080 AVCHD that they will be losing most of their potential/current customers to the 7D & 5D.I'd love to know the market research that went into that assertion.

noelsphoto
10-21-2009, 03:51 AM
I have to admit @ this point I couldn't care any less for gh2 or whatever camera's out there.
What I'm looking for are fast HD lenses primes/zooms.
Firmwares that will keep this camera going........
Fast continuos autofocus/better bitrates. Why not.

commanderspike
10-21-2009, 04:07 AM
Mk2 Sept 2008
Gh1 July 2009

really? it's going to be just shy of two years and the mk2 is just now getting a 24p firmware. the gh1 has barely been out 2months. where are your heads?

2 years? It's not Sept. 2010 yet. 5D Mark II has been out just over 1 year. GH1 since April in Japan, June / July elsewhere.

I think Panasonic have lost a lot of 'prosumer' video orientated customers to Canon because of the bugs and lack of firmware update, myself included. Also the number of clips on Vimeo and YouTube from professionals using the 5D and 7D greatly out number the clips from pros using the GH1 so there is an issue here, but I doubt Panasonic can address all this with firmware. It's a new camera system and it needs to time to get noticed more widely.

The future is still bright for the G system. Remember, the EOS system has been established for much of the digital age, and so the number of calls from customers regarding a 5D firmware update was a lot greater than what I expect the GH1 generated. Canons are more common in the market. The companies are simply reacting to demand.

ydgmdlu
10-21-2009, 04:16 AM
Mk2 Sept 2008
Gh1 July 2009

really? it's going to be just shy of two years and the mk2 is just now getting a 24p firmware. the gh1 has barely been out 2months. where are your heads?
The 5D has only been on the market for a little over a year. The 24p firmware has been announced. The manual controls firmware came a few months ago. These major firmware updates are not mere bug fixes. The 5D did not have the sort of bugs that the GH1 has.

The GH1 launched at the end of April, not in July. So far, Panasonic has stayed mum about the issues that users have raised. There have already been two firmware updates, and the only major change that they have introduced (not counting the tweaks and bug fixes) is to lock-out third-party batteries. When comparing the behavior of the two companies, Panasonic certainly doesn't look good.

thisisapocalypse
10-21-2009, 07:18 AM
Lastly: yes Panasonic, take care of us, come on. Wow. Just wow.

Completely agree...the press release for the GH1 only came out in March of this year, and even now it's relatively tough to find a GH1 here in the states. I'll bet its not too long before we get a meaningful firmware update, there's so much buzz about this camera and so many folks interested in it, that I can't imagine Panasonic is going to turn its back on so many potentially new converts to its camera system.

For me, my favorite thing about the GH1 is the ability to put nearly any lens ever made on to this sucker...no other DSLR can touch it in that respect, and for me that counts for a lot, it's low light performance is excellent, I just can't wait to begin production on the feature I'm shooting this January with the GH1 and loads of Canon FD & Zeiss Lenses. Shooting in Boston...in January...FUN!

If money were no object, I suppose the Canon system is maybe where I'd go...the cost of the camera isn't too bad, but the lenses (while worth it) are quite expensive if you want to put together fast primes covering lots of focal lengths, and want anything bordering on exotic (i.e. superfast lenses and tilt/shifts) and I prefer the feel of Manual Focus lenses anyways...

Considering you can pick up Canon FD glass for so very little, and it's so good, often as good as newer generation glass, it's something that really not be overlooked...exotic lenses in older mounts can be so much cheaper than the modern equivalents, it's amazing, and I think the overall build quality is better with the older stuff too. Not only that, for narrative work, it's almost desirable to have lenses that are sharp, but not *too* sharp...I've certainly heard the criticism before from other filmmakers that some modern lenses really are *too* sharp.

I got a west german made Zeiss 50mm f1.4 for Rollei SL35 mount that I'm using on the GH1 with a Rollei-Eos/Eos-m43 adapter and that lens cost me $200...the modern ZF Zeiss 50mm f1.4 is what $600-700? and it's still manual aperture, manual focus, and *not* made in West Germany...the low cost of good old lenses I think are what really make the GH1 such a good option, I just love this camera.

xmephestox
10-21-2009, 07:52 AM
in all defense to panny, the camera in it's pre build was shown off a lot before anybody had a chance to buy it, everybody knew it's limitations, codec issues, and that it was using advanced pulldown. anybody who bought it and isn't happy with it because of those issues, it's simply their own fault because it's been discussed to death and is still being discussed to death as i'm writing this right now. every camera in its kind has its limitations, it's all about cost benefit. gh1 is dirt cheap, super light and tiny, swivel lcd, and you push yourself to get somthing good out of it like any other camera, shoot it's strengths and avoid the weaknesses and your going to get something wonderful out of it.

asking for these changes are a lot easier said then done, 17 mbps to 24 mpbps is a decent amount of bandwidth to ask for in a increase, are the processors in there capable of it? possibly. will it increase heat and noise issues? most likely. 24 mpbs and full raster 1080/24 no pulldown, even more for the processors to do to crunch out the kind of stuff you want. why didn't they just build a better sensor then? probably a lot of reasons. be more cost effective for one, trying to keep a super small form factor another, pushing their micro 4/3 line even more probably due to a decent success with the original g1, and also probably not wanting to cut into their HMC line of sales because they make this one too good, it's gonna compete against the rest of their lines. it's all still a business after all.

i'm sure we are gonna have a gh2 in 6 months and it's gonna have a lot more to it. at least they aren't coming out with a camera every 2 months like canon and leaving you nothing to look forward to and having you buy and sell your camera bodies every other day. just be glad we have these kind of options, years ago this was just a pipe dream. and personally i think one of the best things about gh1 is that you can get any swinging camera mount you want for it and mix and match any lense you want on it. the benefits of that are wonderful!

shzr
10-21-2009, 07:55 AM
The 5D has only been on the market for a little over a year. The 24p firmware has been announced. The manual controls firmware came a few months ago. These major firmware updates are not mere bug fixes. The 5D did not have the sort of bugs that the GH1 has.

The GH1 launched at the end of April, not in July. So far, Panasonic has stayed mum about the issues that users have raised. There have already been two firmware updates, and the only major change that they have introduced (not counting the tweaks and bug fixes) is to lock-out third-party batteries. When comparing the behavior of the two companies, Panasonic certainly doesn't look good.

If feels like its been out for 2 months only because Panasonic took forever to mass produce.

shzr
10-21-2009, 08:45 AM
i'm sure we are gonna have a gh2 in 6 months and it's gonna have a lot more to it. at least they aren't coming out with a camera every 2 months like canon and leaving you nothing to look forward to and having you buy and sell your camera bodies every other day. just be glad we have these kind of options, years ago this was just a pipe dream. and personally i think one of the best things about gh1 is that you can get any swinging camera mount you want for it and mix and match any lense you want on it. the benefits of that are wonderful!

I must completely disagree with your statement about canon leaving you to sell your camera bodies. Maybe you did not read this whole thread, but canon has been doing a good job updating the MarkII 5D, and breaking away from previous company policy of ONLY fixing bugs and not adding features.

Here's the proof if you need it again http://www.dpreview.com/news/0910/09102003eos5dfirmware.asp

On the other hand, panasonic has been very quiet and is not communicating with the community. Have they addressed any issues with the camera that have been brought up and proven?
This only leaves us to speculate. And its a speculation on your part that the cpu cannot handle 24mbps. Some even believe higher bitrate means less compression, thus less CPU processing.

Anyways, this thread is not about how great or how bad the GH1 is.

Nitsuj
10-21-2009, 08:51 AM
I do notice one thing. All the actual people who do and deliver; have been the tiniest group of complainers. The ones who don't, or "the neophytes", have been the loudest complainers in the GH1 bashing/FUD arena IMHO.......... Hmmm interesting!


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com


Nailed it. The assembly will not stand for this though you know.

shzr
10-21-2009, 08:54 AM
To be fair, the GH1 outputs a true 720 60p signal. The GF1ís chip outputs 30p and doubles it in the codec. In other words, the GH1ís 720p mode is infinite times better. The GH1's 720 60p mode is also better than the 7D's.

With that said, I also hope Panasonic takes Canon example and add more 1080 modes. The least they can do is fix the 24p mode. All people ask is native 24p from the beginning. We shouldn't need to deal with removing pull down.

Just to add to my 720p/1080i comment.

"t is missing a few features of itís big brother the GH1, no flip out screen, no electronic viewfinder and no Full HD. But the screen is nicer, you can add an electronic viewfinder to it and to be honest 720p on the GH1 is what I use anyway as I find the 1080p a little weak codec wise."
http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/10/19/the-panasonic-lumix-gf1-z-finder-fits-on-it-very-well/

Sorry slow day at work :grin:

Barry_Green
10-21-2009, 09:08 AM
Okay, a few things to keep in perspective:
1) Panasonic, on the pro/broadcast side, has been the most-listening, most-communicative, most-proactive company of them all.
2) This is really the first time we (DVXUser) have dealt with any product from the consumer side of the business.
3) The GH1's been out in very limited quantities for 3 months. The 5D Mark II was out for nearly a year.
4) Companies are not used to being yanked around on the end of the consumer's chain, and dancing when ordered to dance.

I can guarantee you that Panasonic is listening. If it is possible to fix it, I am certain that they will, companies usually use firmware updates to fix bugs and address compatibility issues.

As to the other things that people want, such as no pulldown or higher bitrates or whatever -- some of those things may not be possible to do in a firmware update. Some might be hardware limitations. We don't know what's possible. It sure would be nice to get someone from Panasonic Consumer to communicate with us to let us know, but that hasn't happened and I don't know that it will happen, either. Nobody from Canon Consumer or Nikon Consumer or JVC Consumer or Sony Consumer communicates back with us, and -- for that matter, nobody from Sony, JVC, or Canon broadcast/professional communicates back with us either.

Panasonic remains the only broadcast company that has a presence here, that directly communicates with us.

I can only hope that their consumer side will follow suit. But even if they don't, that leaves them in the same boat as everyone else.

As for if/when a firmware update will come out, that is absolutely anyone's guess.

dcloud
10-21-2009, 09:10 AM
my theory, panny will release a professional m43 camera next year.

no more cutesy cam (gf1).. no more 'tiniest' interchangeable cam (gh1)..

it should be built bigger, better processor...
but itll still be 24 on 60i... LOL

Justyn
10-21-2009, 09:11 AM
This intial concept of this thread seems so conveluded and doesn't take into the account the years upon years where Panasonic has been listening to its customers, been on this site, and been implementing our requests into its products. This view is a recent one, and it just seems to only see the current state of affairs as the end all be all. What's happened is the other manufacturers have taken notice of this site, and of people like Jan coming on this site to comment and educate, and also to LISTEN. I think you'll see some great products come out from every manufacturer, as they realize that things and times have changed. Social networking site, the internet and rapid fanboys are where things are at...

Nitsuj
10-21-2009, 09:19 AM
Barry Green and Justyn are completely correct. Unfortunately it will be overlooked and thrown out as nonsense by the bash mob. :violent5:

Revsta
10-21-2009, 10:14 AM
I'm a big Panasonic fan and I think they will address a lot of our concerns as well. They know they need to keep us. I think they know the competition the 5d/7d places on their product. I love my GH1 and if the mud issue was resolved, I'd be 100% happy with it. Mud and FPN and I'd be ecstatic. For 1,500 this camera is the most insane deal I've ever seen.

Park Edwards
10-21-2009, 10:30 AM
2 years? It's not Sept. 2010 yet. 5D Mark II has been out just over 1 year. GH1 since April in Japan, June / July elsewhere.

I think Panasonic have lost a lot of 'prosumer' video orientated customers to Canon because of the bugs and lack of firmware update, myself included. Also the number of clips on Vimeo and YouTube from professionals using the 5D and 7D greatly out number the clips from pros using the GH1 so there is an issue here, but I doubt Panasonic can address all this with firmware. It's a new camera system and it needs to time to get noticed more widely.

The future is still bright for the G system. Remember, the EOS system has been established for much of the digital age, and so the number of calls from customers regarding a 5D firmware update was a lot greater than what I expect the GH1 generated. Canons are more common in the market. The companies are simply reacting to demand.

the firmware won't be out until 2010 fella. that's just shy of two years. boy oh boy.

pailes
10-21-2009, 10:34 AM
Guys, guys this is ridiculous. You know what... the indie filmmaker community is only a tiny percentage of all the potential GH1 customers. All the others are photo enthusiasts, pure consumers. They don't care about all these issues. After I bought the GH1 two of my work mates also bought one, just for fun. None of them EVER talked about "mud" or "fixed" pattern noise or any other issue. They use the camera for what it is, nothing more and nothing less. And that's the main customer group of the GH1.

You got to be realistic about the importance of all your whining. It means nothing at all. The GH1 sells very well and I bet Panasonic is very well aware of all the issues and I'm also pretty sure if they can fix one or the other issue they will do it but neither MUD nor FPN will be fixed. And I can tell you why, because Panasonic knew about it right from the start and they accepted it. It was their decision to put the camera out knowing that it's operating at its limits accepting all the flaws it has. It was carefully considered as good enough for the average customer and that's what it still is.

Park Edwards
10-21-2009, 10:36 AM
the Gh1 was not officially launched in the US till July 09. Although, not incredible, 2 firmware updates have been launched for the gh1. yes, to lock out 3rd party batteries, but also a slower shutter speed and better autofocus for the lens. but whatever these comments are great.

xmephestox
10-21-2009, 10:38 AM
they'll do what feels right to them according to their business plan. they'll listen, and they'll take it to account. but what makes more sense right now, re fashioning their existing camera that might very well have serious limitations they can't do much about, or concentrate on their next line of product that may effectively cut into this line of camera but give us what we want? they'll have their demographic they want to aim to, they'll do what they see fit with all our comments in their notebook. time will tell, they know they have serious competition, and even more down the line with so many other companies. how many people are really complaining and yelling at nikon? their d90 still sells, and a lot of ppl just wrote them off as they don't matter cause we have gh1 and 7d's, and 5d's, and 1d's.

i'm sure panny is doing intensive r&d to accomplish a lot of these things, keep their customer loyalty, and still maintain a proper business model that's kept them a successful company this whole time. just because we don't understand why the camera can't do something doesn't mean they don't for very good reasons.

JerryB
10-21-2009, 10:39 AM
Ozpeter,

The only market research I've done is...

A couple weeks back someone was selling a GH1 and adaptor on Craigslist (New York City). I already have a Gh1, so I wanted to know if he would sell the adapter separately. I then proceeded to ask "Just out of curiosity, why are you selling your GH1". He responded that he likes the 7D better.

Almost every other day there is someone selling the GH1 on Craigslist. Why would this be, when the camera has only been out for a few months? I might be making assumptions, but I'm pretty sure he's not the only one who is selling for the 7D

Nitsuj
10-21-2009, 11:17 AM
But they will just be trading one set of problems for another. They are both HDSLR's and they both have separate problems. Personally I couldn't deal with the added aliasing and no swivel out LCD myself but they are both comparable. What I find crazy to me is the number of complainers that bark the same bark over and over in all the threads. I wonder what the point is? Why not just send the concerns to Panasonic and stop repeating the same thing over and over? It's like they want the people that actually like the GH1 to come out and say "Alright guys, you got me, I actually hate this camera and I'm going to sell it. Silly me for trying to fool you." Not gonna happen here so why does it keep getting thrown on here? It's strange. I mean there are countless threads about this already so why are new ones started every week all saying the same things over and over? :violin: Some I think are just upset because they got a paying gig and once they did what others said not to they got pissed and started a whole chain of threads to feel better about their mistake. Least that is how it looks to me. Anyway... I'm off to work on my screenplay instead of saying the same thing over and over again myself. Have fun in this bash war. If anything it is entertaining to see despite it getting old. :kali::badputer::violent5::nads:

Park Edwards
10-21-2009, 11:22 AM
i for one wish panasonic would come out with a firmware update that makes the gh1 give backrubs. i'm so pissed off panasonic didn't include this feature. maybe gh3?

thisisapocalypse
10-21-2009, 01:00 PM
i for one wish panasonic would come out with a firmware update that makes the gh1 give backrubs. i'm so pissed off panasonic didn't include this feature. maybe gh3?

I dunno...that sure is asking a lot...maybe it could be done with a firmware update and a new folding out LCD panel with a slot to insert various backscratching attachments, we'd need an extension arm and a motor as well...but geez, they've held out on us so much already, I don't know what would get them to start listening to what we really want now...and of course, these upgrades should all be free and sent to all of us via FedEx overnight. I think you're being overly optimistic about it appearing on the GH3, I can't imagine we'll see this until the G6/G7...man we're all such suckers!

thisisapocalypse
10-21-2009, 01:16 PM
Oooh, here's another idea!

Get yourself a GH1, make a great film with it...truly great, push your limits creatively, work within the cameras limitation (this can often be a really *good* thing creatively), sell your film (as after all, it's going to be great) and then when the time comes to make your next film, you'll be able to get whatever camera you want...that perfect camera...which...doesn't exist! Can you believe that 35mm film cameras don't have lcd panels that show you exactly what the finished product is going to look like in real time? Can you believe that they use FILM that has to get developed? Then scanned in for editing? You've got to run dual system sound too! My God, the 35mm film camera makers are really running a racket! Somebody really needs to put them in their place!

Content is everything, would any of us care and/or notice if our favorite films had been shot on GH1s instead of whatever they were originally shot on? I'd bet you a fair number of those film directors/producers back in the day would have dumped their film rigs for just a lowly GH1 and thought it was the most amazing thing they'd ever seen...things will get better and better over time, but if you've got a film to make, you can make it today on GH1, and if its good, then nobody is going to care what camera you shot it on...notwithstanding the fact that the GH1 is a damn good camera!

shzr
10-21-2009, 01:35 PM
the firmware won't be out until 2010 fell. that's just shy of two years. boy oh boy.

That's exactly my point. Canon is making an effort to communicate with their consumers.
Why are allot of you upset and taking this as a GH1 bash? It isn't.

The sad fact is, w/out a little noise, Panasonic(consumer side) will not do anything.

And thank you Barry for pointing out this is Panasonic consumer division issue, and not denying that they have been unpleasantly quiet.

commanderspike
10-21-2009, 01:41 PM
Content is everything, would any of us care and/or notice if our favorite films had been shot on GH1s instead of whatever they were originally shot on? I'd bet you a fair number of those film directors/producers back in the day would have dumped their film rigs for just a lowly GH1 and thought it was the most amazing thing they'd ever seen...things will get better and better over time, but if you've got a film to make, you can make it today on GH1, and if its good, then nobody is going to care what camera you shot it on...notwithstanding the fact that the GH1 is a damn good camera!

Good point.

One that comes up again and again. One which is quite obvious really. But one not relevant to the discussion of bugs and the attitude of Panasonic towards these issues, which frankly sucks. I am not bashing Panasonic's know-how and achievement with the GH1 especially at that price point, but something stinks in their strategy to ignore customer demands for firmware updates. Either that or the demand simply isn't large enough.

AdrianF
10-21-2009, 01:42 PM
But they will just be trading one set of problems for another. They are both HDSLR's and they both have separate problems. Personally I couldn't deal with the added aliasing and no swivel out LCD myself but they are both comparable. What I find crazy to me is the number of complainers that bark the same bark over and over in all the threads. I wonder what the point is? Why not just send the concerns to Panasonic and stop repeating the same thing over and over? It's like they want the people that actually like the GH1 to come out and say "Alright guys, you got me, I actually hate this camera and I'm going to sell it. Silly me for trying to fool you." Not gonna happen here so why does it keep getting thrown on here? It's strange. I mean there are countless threads about this already so why are new ones started every week all saying the same things over and over? Some I think are just upset because they got a paying gig and once they did what others said not to they got pissed and started a whole chain of threads to feel better about their mistake. Least that is how it looks to me. Anyway... I'm off to work on my screenplay instead of saying the same thing over and over again myself. Have fun in this bash war. If anything it is entertaining to see despite it getting old.

+1 and one does really need a good sense of humour to keep reading these threads.

Panasonic just announced a new firmware update for the LX3, how long's that camera been out? Even if they don't update the firmware for the GH1, I really couldn't give a shit. The camera does far more than I could hope it to, considering the cost and size. What's more I think it's entirely reasonable to think that Panasonic might not have crippled the camera on purpose to protect the broadcast division, but instead, the broadcast division could well have been consulted to help create a small functional little camera, that can be carried in a small bag, can shoot in low light, takes pretty much any lens out there and let's face it, it's IQ can give a lot of far more expensive cameras a run for their money.
I personally think that most of us here are as close as we are ever likely to get to a free lunch and while there's nothing wrong with asking for improved functionality, suggesting that people have been somehow misled into buying this camera is a bit of a joke.

thisisapocalypse
10-21-2009, 02:27 PM
I personally think that most of us here are as close as we are ever likely to get to a free lunch and while there's nothing wrong with asking for improved functionality, suggesting that people have been somehow misled into buying this camera is a bit of a joke.

+1

I'm producing my first feature (have done lots of shorts before in the pre-HD days during college...Sony PD150s, Canon XL-1s) with the GH1 this Winter, and up to this point there's just no way I could have done it with this sort of quality, this versatility, and this sort of money...this camera will give me an image good enough to compete with the big boys at Film Festivals, I simply could not be happier.

I consider myself fairly new to this all still, and I've been doing photography/video for 25 years, I've processed a hell of a lot of film, sat there digitizing video on old school Avids, used all the first generation DSLRs that cost insane money, and delivered pictures that looked like poop...all that sort of thing...and that stuff, which wasn't all that good...was still really expensive, and miles away from broadcast/hollywood quality...now we have an slr sized camera with iso 400 that acts like its 2500, can take any lens you can throw at it, and it costs $1500 with a lens, about $800 without it?

If you were new to digital photgraphy and hadn't put up with the pain of the gear for the last 20-30 years, I think I get that...but coming from a predominantly film background for still photgraphy and a vhs/vhs-c/8mm/Hi-8/MiniDV background for video, I'm just in absolute awe of how fast we've gotten this sort of quality, and at the price we're getting it. Just 10-12 years ago the early HD cameras cost 50-100k and you had to carry around 10 lb recorders in order to shoot...10-12 years later, we've got the GH1 sure, it's more compressed, but it weighs like 2 lbs and costs $800-900 for the body.

I think if you take a step back and look at the product life cycle development of these things over a period of greater than...oh I don't know, a year...say 5 years, 10 years (which really isn't that long a time) it really puts in perspective just how much these camera companies have given us in such a short amount of time.

The GH1 is as free as a lunch gets, in my opinion.

shzr
10-21-2009, 04:34 PM
Oh please its a $1,499 lunch and now I'm looking for free desserts.

The GEO
10-21-2009, 05:28 PM
Oh please its a $1,499 lunch and now I'm looking for free desserts.


Sell it and get the gf1 then. I'm sure you could sell it for almost as much as you paid for it.

Barry_Green
10-21-2009, 05:34 PM
Panasonic just announced a new firmware update for the LX3, how long's that camera been out?
Looks like about 15 months; introduced July 2008.

commanderspike
10-21-2009, 06:12 PM
15 months? That's a long time to wait to have your dangerous 3rd party batteries disabled. :)


Panasonic just announced a new firmware update for the LX3, how long's that camera been out? Even if they don't update the firmware for the GH1, I really couldn't give a shi*.

You don't care if they improve the product? Had you said that 20 years ago we'd still be shooting on Hi8 tapes.

$1500 is not a free lunch, not even to someone in America. African kids are still making movies their imagination. Now THAT is a free lunch.

Ben_B
10-21-2009, 09:15 PM
My imagination has superior dynamic range to yours.

John Caballero
10-21-2009, 10:37 PM
If somebody that wants to make movies on the cheap doesn't even have $1500 for a great camera for the price like the GH1 then he/she should stick to pencil and paper and spend his/her time writing a great novel instead. It is a lot cheaper and as creative . You can write great things if you just push your imagination. In the meantime he/she can go flip burgers to earn the aforementioned $1500 for the camera and then start shooting blockbuster movies.

Nitsuj
10-21-2009, 10:40 PM
$1500 and it does all this yet there are people that expect it to do as much as a professional HD camera? I think the meaning of "free lunch" is expecting to have a firmware update that will add features with no additional cost. Bah here I am waisting my time on this thread again, off to sleep I go.

Park Edwards
10-21-2009, 11:25 PM
My imagination has superior dynamic range to yours.

quote of the day

PappasArts
10-22-2009, 01:07 AM
But they will just be trading one set of problems for another. They are both HDSLR's and they both have separate problems. "What I find crazy to me is the number of complainers that bark the same bark over and over in all the threads".
:kali::badputer::violent5::nads:

Maybe this is the answer..

Excerpt from the script of The Matrix; on why the first Matrix failed:

Agent Smith:

"" but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from.""



This might answer why many ( the majority ) of people can never be satisfied; or if they are, it's a temporary mental state to prepare them for the next situation that will jar them back into the vicious cycle of an unhappy dissatisfied state of mind which people truly feel comfortable engaging in.

When will the human species learn, and move up the evolutionary path?


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com

greymog
10-22-2009, 01:19 AM
Still kinda hurts that Stu Maschwitz is disappointed in the GH1.

Yet after that last post it would be difficult to keep complaining.

Very happy with my GH1. A friend arrives today with a 7D.

We've got this 'plan' where we stock up on the DSLR models that are kickin right now, (sold my D90) We've got a GH1, a 7D, and have preordered a 1DMKIV, and a D3s (one of which would be sold easily in beirut as things take a while to come out here) and work off all their features.

After spending 5g's/2g's/2g's we still haven't accumulated the cost of the RED one. Even if we keep the other flagship DSLR. Once its here of course.

But it's looking like PL and weird angles for the GH1 during the day, 1D for the fast moves/lack of jello and the lowlight, and the 7D for general shooting.

Heck, we take pictures for money so the 1D doesn't seem too bad for us. We shoot guns going off etc we need fast shutters plus lowlight.

I dunno, even at all their price points, we can add a 5D for studio stills.

I like that these cameras 'aren't video cameras'. Two fields coming together so accessibly to the public will change some aesthetic 'tradition' that resulted previously from a technological limit.

We're just renegotiating the compromise. Skimp on the codec, get a small and cheap size.

Form factor changed, movement will kinda change.

Shallow depth of field is gonna lose its grounding for a bit, as we saw with the 5d, everybody couldn't get enough, but it'll pass.

The codec on the GH1 hasn't bothered me. If it does, I'll be glad we bought a 7d, and still didn't spend 5g's. We have both. Best solution I think.

I'd work on making sure the footage mixes well in a final result.

greymog
10-22-2009, 01:22 AM
Another thing these DSLR's are good for, is learning. I have an easier time shooting film after playing with these SLR's cause they stress the importance of getting things right on camera. The price is too high to pay if you don't.

We've kitted the cameras out and when we're not using them they're rented out to students and enthusiasts for a fraction of the price a Z1 or Z7 (most popular cams here) go for the day.

We've not had many negative reactions from the DSLR phenomenon.

PappasArts
10-22-2009, 01:31 AM
Still kinda hurts that Stu Maschwitz is disappointed in the GH1.


Who cares what the F&*^ Stu likes or doesn't... He's not god, or some superior intellect that will change the course of humanity. It's 100% irreverent to me what he or others think in the end. I only care if I like it, and it works for me. I'm sure Stu could give a Sh*T if I, you or anyone here doesn't like something he likes...

Like you, I'm very happy with the GH1. I have a friend that tried to make me feel bad about my GH1 for quite awhile. All I heard from this person ( coincidentally a 5DMII owner ) was the GH1 mud issue, even though he has never even seen a GH1; the senors size is to small and how AVCHD sucks on the GH1 and on and on. I think I told him to finally shut the "F" up in a nice way. :-)


.
Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com

Park Edwards
10-22-2009, 01:40 AM
Who cares what the F&*^ Stu likes or doesn't... He's not god, or some superior intellect that will change the course of humanity. It's 100% irreverent to me what he or others think in the end. I only care if I like it, and it works for me. I'm sure Stu could give a Sh*T if I, you or anyone here doesn't like something he likes...

Like you, I'm very happy with the GH1. I have a friend that tried to make me feel bad about my GH1 for quite awhile. All I heard from this person ( coincidentally a 5DMII owner ) was the GH1 mud issue, even though he has never even seen a GH1; the senors size is to small and how AVCHD sucks on the GH1 and on and on. I think I told him to finally shut the "F" up in a nice way. :-)


.
Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com

a little harsh, in some way, but i agree. the bloggers are great for conveying information to the people, but it's mainly their opinions. but i could see how some of these guys on here see the bloggers as rock stas cause they're in the "industry", but it's completely subjective.

shzr
10-22-2009, 06:44 AM
Wow, this is a frustrating thread.

The heading sugests that it is about whether or not Panasonic will follow Canon in providing firmware updates, and alot of you turned this into defend the GH1 at all costs! We all know the GH1 is a good camera, and so was the Mark II but Canon decided to make it better.

And if you are defending the gh1 or panasonic to state that a firmware is not needed, then please clarify. Say that you are completely happy with the gh1 the way it is and that panasonic does not need to update firmware.

Nitsuj
10-22-2009, 07:59 AM
"Hey that fast food joint is giving away free cookies with their meal. We DEMAND you give us something free with our meal too!"

"Hey I just bought this car but I noticed the other car lot is giving away free tune-ups. I demand you give me free tune-ups too buddy."

"Hey this guy I know bought this very same laptop from a different store but that store gave him a free puppy, I wan't my damn PUPPY!"

jamesjjs
10-22-2009, 08:13 AM
shzr,

all due respect - I defend nothing, merely stating what the strengths of the GH1 are. The GH1 is a fantastic camera - back in July 1st when I got it - I continue to learn. The price I paid to get into the game of producing mind blowing video was even cheaper than when I got a Panasonic GS400 in Feb 2005 - that was a 1/4 inch SD consumer cam with full manual controls - recording to tape!

The GH1 is not in the same league as the 5D, 7D - it is a consumer grade camera. So, for it to be compared with prosumer grade stuff like the Nikon D90, the Canon 5D MkII and lately the 7D is already testimony to its capabilities. I shot side by side with a friend who has a Sony EX1 - even he was blown away by what this cam can do, particularly with a Nikon 50mm f1.2. Shallow depth of field, low light, sharpness.... equal or even better than the EX1

Let me ask a question back to you - who is completely happy with their camera? Whether GH1, D90, 5DmkII,7D,EX1,1Dmk4,D3s.... all will have some issue.

Of course Panasonic will follow up with a GH2 - I believe the GH1 it is a successful camera for them. I only hope (like all of us do) that it will be a worthy upgrade.

If not, I will keep the GH1 as my point and shoot and go get something else!

PS - I would be happy for any firmware upgrade the Panny offers to helps make the GH1 better

greymog
10-22-2009, 08:25 AM
Who cares what the F&*^ Stu likes or doesn't... He's not god, or some superior intellect that will change the course of humanity. It's 100% irreverent to me what he or others think in the end. I only care if I like it, and it works for me. I'm sure Stu could give a Sh*T if I, you or anyone here doesn't like something he likes...

Like you, I'm very happy with the GH1. I have a friend that tried to make me feel bad about my GH1 for quite awhile. All I heard from this person ( coincidentally a 5DMII owner ) was the GH1 mud issue, even though he has never even seen a GH1; the senors size is to small and how AVCHD sucks on the GH1 and on and on. I think I told him to finally shut the "F" up in a nice way. :-)


.
Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com

wow. sorry man.

For the record, I still am using my GH1, and do love it.

Stu Maschwitz doesn't tell me what to buy, and I'm not seriously claiming that I will get rid of my GH1 cause he doesn't like it.

Nevertheless, I read his blog, it's taught me a bunch, just like dvx, and just like a lot of posts you made man. I've never read this many swears in your posts. I spologize for ticking anyone off. I buy my own things, and make my own decisions.

Still, Stu Maschwitz is an incredibly eloquent and intellectual man, he writes well, and has his eye on the ball at all times, always concerned with the big picture, which is basically using whatever camera you have. I think it's good if I can let his opinions influence me just a bit. It's fun having someone to look up to, I look up to Stu. Never met him, just read his work, and learn a bit.

He's got skills, seems much friendlier and cooler than not caring so violently about what i think, and yes Stu's opinion I think matters in the field.

I think the same of Kholi. Kholi's a friggin celebrity here in Beirut. I'll listen to what he says. David Mullen on REDuser, I'll listen to.

Your posts even, I would always read the same way I read kholi's, stu's david's, and barry green's. You've almost never given bad advice, the most important thing is the author's objective, and I think you'd shoot with whatever you have and make it happen, as one should.

Your reply kinda hurt man. I don't think I should be made to feel like a passive fool for reading a very capable man's advice.

If Stu didn't care what we thought he wouldn't blog.

Whether or not he cares isn't my point. I was just saying that to show a bit of that looking up. No 'sheep' messages intended. I ain't sellin my cam.

Lots of folk are unhappy about the codec in the GH1, has it stopped anyone serious? I just came back from a shoot today with it and things are looking good.

The rest of my post indicates that I believe that each and every one of these cameras has a good use, and am planning to use them in tandem, not bashing a single one.

Even if panasonic don't listen as hard as canon, the point in relation to the thread itself is that you can pick all of these cameras up in time, using one to pay for the next etc if cash is good, and still not spend too much compared to other options.

So, yeah, no need for the anger.

Sorry for ticking you off Michael.

greymog
10-22-2009, 08:27 AM
a little harsh, in some way, but i agree. the bloggers are great for conveying information to the people, but it's mainly their opinions. but i could see how some of these guys on here see the bloggers as rock stas cause they're in the "industry", but it's completely subjective.

Forget rock star, some of these bloggers/posters are smart based on what I've read then thought about hopefully.

Everything's subjective. I think it's ok to appreciate an opinion.

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 09:49 AM
"Hey that fast food joint is giving away free cookies with their meal. We DEMAND you give us something free with our meal too!"

"Hey I just bought this car but I noticed the other car lot is giving away free tune-ups. I demand you give me free tune-ups too buddy."

"Hey this guy I know bought this very same laptop from a different store but that store gave him a free puppy, I wan't my damn PUPPY!"

You know that's kind of the way things work though...note how often fastfood promotions at different companies will mirror each other, how often car dealerships in an area will offer similar things....that does happen, and it happens frequently...so yes, thanks for the example, Panny should get on this and listen to their customers like Canon did.

You ever heard of "will match best price" and "will take competitor's coupons?"

Park Edwards
10-22-2009, 09:50 AM
Forget rock star, some of these bloggers/posters are smart based on what I've read then thought about hopefully.

Everything's subjective. I think it's ok to appreciate an opinion.

i agree, why wouldn't you appreciate it? but some people out there think their word is the freaking gospel and base their decisions solely on what they think.

Nitsuj
10-22-2009, 10:00 AM
You know that's kind of the way things work though...note how often fastfood promotions at different companies will mirror each other, how often car dealerships in an area will offer similar things....that does happen, and it happens frequently...so yes, thanks for the example, Panny should get on this and listen to their customers like Canon did.

You ever heard of "will match best price" and "will take competitor's coupons?"

Hehe I guess I am old fashioned. I appreciate what I have now and don't envy those that have more. I have never been the "More I want more!" type myself. I kind of think this way of thinking is one of the underlying reasons this country, US, is in it's financial position. In the end I think it's our own greed that has hurt us. But as far as driving new technology goes, yes I think that is important, but I don't think it prevents somebody from making a good picture.

Park Edwards
10-22-2009, 10:08 AM
That's exactly my point. Canon is making an effort to communicate with their consumers.
Why are allot of you upset and taking this as a GH1 bash? It isn't.

The sad fact is, w/out a little noise, Panasonic(consumer side) will not do anything.

And thank you Barry for pointing out this is Panasonic consumer division issue, and not denying that they have been unpleasantly quiet.

your point is that you're not even giving panasonic a chance to listen to people before getting a firmware out. canon spent well over a year to get manual control, 2years later and now 24p.

the sad fact is, canon's done something out the of ordinary for any company. and that's great. jump ship over to canon. it's probably more suitable for you. canon never announced they were going to give anyone these features until they were going to be released. so why is everyone getting upset about panasonic not doing anything when it's been less than 6months since the camera's been out?

Barry_Green
10-22-2009, 10:15 AM
I appreciate what I have now and don't envy those that have more.

"Happiness is not getting what you want; it's wanting what you've got."

greymog
10-22-2009, 11:07 AM
i agree, why wouldn't you appreciate it? but some people out there think their word is the freaking gospel and base their decisions solely on what they think.

I know I know. sorry if I implied that. in prolost's case there's very little i don't agree with, still think about it after i read it.

Oh well, cheers all. Happy shooting.

t

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 11:31 AM
"Happiness is not getting what you want; it's wanting what you've got."

Yeah, Panasonic should want the customers they've got...and make it so we're likely to stick around.

Barry_Green
10-22-2009, 11:48 AM
Yeah, Panasonic should want the customers they've got...and make it so we're likely to stick around.
Go, or stay, with whoever and whatever makes you comfortable.

But if you think expecting a firmware update after a couple of months is realistic, you might find a "grass is greener" scenario going on.

After the GH1 has been out as long as the 5D was when it got the manual-control update, then we'll be able to judge fairly whether Panasonic is listening or not. But when it took Canon a year to add the manual controls update, and you're clamoring for something comparable here after the GH1's been out for three months (and, truthfully, only in widespread release for a few weeks) it just smacks of being a little unfair of a comparison, does it not?

shzr
10-22-2009, 11:57 AM
Anybody attend the Photoplus expo in NYC?
I'm gonna try to stop by on saturday. Will hit up the Panasonic booth and ask what's going on. Hopefully, they have something to say.

Here's a link if any of you are interested.

http://www.photoplusexpo.com/ppe/5300/attendee/index.jsp

Stephen Mick
10-22-2009, 12:01 PM
I would not expect a firmware update to provide pulldown-free 1080/24p. I would, however, expect a firmware update to fix the color shifting issue, and I'd expect that as soon as is humanly possible.

shzr
10-22-2009, 12:03 PM
Go, or stay, with whoever and whatever makes you comfortable.

But when it took Canon a year to add the manual controls update,

Just a correction, it was not more than a year. It was more like 6-7 mos. MarkII was release around Oct 08 w/ firmware released on June 09, with communication from Canon in between.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-10249950-39.html (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-10249950-39.html)
http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20080917_5dmkii.html

And people couldn't really get a Mark II till 09

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Not necessarily given the way the product cycle works differently for consumer devices vs pro devices...there isn't a replacement on the 5D mk II on the horizon, and yet we can probably expect a GH1 replacement announced sometime within the next 6 months...so I think you have to look at announcements at a percentage of the way through a product's shelf life.

Anyway that said, I don't really expect anything from them, no more than I expected anything from Canon. However, Canon just announced a firmware fix that won't be out for months...if Panny is working on something all they have to do is say it...but of course they won't because they can't promise things that they then might not be able to deliver.

I love this camera and I'm keeping it, no doubt. Besides, right now my camera shoots 24p and my friend's 5D doesn't :D And his will likely never shoot 60p. I got the GH1 because I needed it for projects this fall and winter...I'm a student and don't have a lot of money so I'm sure it will serve me long after that, but I got it cause I needed a camera now and I have one, I am not dependent on it being improved in the future...but oh my word would it be nice.

It's not so much about wanting it improved so much as it is about something totally different: being treated as inferior. I am a filmmaker. I may be a student but my creativity and technical skill (thanks in no small part to this forum) can rival many pros out there. I bought this camera because I thought (rightly so) that it would help enable my creativity more than cameras many times its price from Panasonic broadcast. However, because of the way Panasonic is structured, my camera, despite what I'm using it for, and in a manner that is in so many ways contrary to its true capabilities, is classified as a consumer product, and therefore not given the same kind of transparency as the pro level products (which yes Panasonic has been great about talking to us with.) I don't like this feeling.

I work in IT as well. When we have a problem with a macintosh and we call up Apple, it doesn't matter if it's with a server or with a mac pro or with an iMac, it usually doesn't take more than an hour on the phone before we're put through to an engineer that designed the hardware, or wrote the part of the operating system in question. We bring bugs to their attention, they help us work through them, and then they make sure they're fixed in the next patch (hell we've gotten all but our names on the patch notes). Does it matter to them that it's a consumer product or not? No. What matters to them is what their customer is using it for and what the problem is, or even if there is no problem, what the customer is trying to do with it.

I'm not saying that Panasonic needs to do this, or that I need to talk to whoever decided to put pulldown on the GH1 on the phone directly, or whoever wrote the software side stuff for auto gain control...but if they're not even giving us 10% of the transparency or access that Apple gives us, even when dealing with consumer products.

Yeah, with my IT work we're not consumers, but we're using consumer products for a lot of the stuff (the fact that Apple is now selling a Mac mini that ships with OSX Server should show how these lines are being increasingly blurred) we do. The reason we get help from Apple is because they care about what we're doing with their stuff, and they care when it's broken or if there's features that are more convoluted than they need to be, or features that should be added.

Yeah your average consumer might not be able to get in touch with an engineer at Apple, but we're a relatively small outfit....we are to the average mac user what the average DVXuser is to the average video using consumer...and they take care of us.

Barry_Green
10-22-2009, 12:26 PM
However, because of the way Panasonic is structured, my camera, despite what I'm using it for, and in a manner that is in so many ways contrary to its true capabilities, is classified as a consumer product, and therefore not given the same kind of transparency as the pro level products (which yes Panasonic has been great about talking to us with.) I don't like this feeling.
The GH1 is built and sold through Panasonic Consumer. It's not about "classifying" it as consumer, it's that the consumer division built and sold it. Broadcast is a different company. Different corporation, different employees, different structure, different everything. Different warranties, different customer support policies, etc. Panasonic Broadcast works a lot more like the Apple you're describing.

If I substitute a couple of words in your quote, I think the distinction can be made a lot more clearly:

However, because my camera was made by Nikon, my camera, despite what I'm using it for, and in a manner that is in so many ways contrary to its true capabilities, is classified as a consumer product, and therefore not given the same kind of transparency as the Panasonic pro level products (which yes Panasonic has been great about talking to us with.) I don't like this feeling

Same basic thing. Panasonic Consumer is not Panasonic Broadcast, any more than Nikon is Panasonic Broadcast. Panasonic Broadcast has made the commitment to interact with us daily, entirely accessibly. Nikon and Canon and JVC and Sony don't do that, and neither does Panasonic Consumer.

Doesn't mean that none of those companies read the boards, because they all do. But they don't interact with us.

If you don't like that feeling, perhaps it's best to not buy the consumer product, but stick with what the broadcast division offers. Same as if you like the service you receive at the Lexus dealership, don't go buying a Toyota Corolla. Of course, if Lexus doesn't offer something comparable to the Corolla, and that's all you want and need, then you go with Toyota -- but don't expect Lexus-class service at the dealership. They're different.

but if they're not even giving us 10% of the transparency or access that Apple gives us, even when dealing with consumer products.
And who else does? Panasonic's the most transparent of the video companies, the most accessible. Nobody else comes within a million miles of them. So compare your experience against peers (other consumer electronics companies), not a totally different industry (a computer manufacturer or a broadcast equipment manufacturer).

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 12:39 PM
The GH1 is built and sold through Panasonic Consumer. It's not about "classifying" it as consumer, it's that the consumer division built and sold it. Broadcast is a different company.

If I substitute a couple of words in your quote, I think the distinction can be made a lot more clearly:


Same basic thing. Panasonic Consumer is not Panasonic Broadcast, any more than Nikon is Panasonic Broadcast. Panasonic Broadcast has made the commitment to interact with us daily, entirely accessibly. Nikon and Canon and JVC and Sony don't do that, and neither does Panasonic Consumer.

Doesn't mean that none of those companies read the boards, because they all do. But they don't interact with us.


And who else does? Panasonic's the most transparent of the video companies, the most accessible. Nobody else comes within a million miles of them. So compare your experience against peers (other consumer electronics companies), not a totally different industry (a computer manufacturer or a broadcast equipment manufacturer).

Yeah I realize they're different companies, but they're all under the Panasonic umbrella and someone at a higher level at Panasonic should care more about overall brand consistency and reputation....we know they're different companies but if my Panasonic microwave burns down my house I'm gonna be less likely to buy a Panasonic TV set...just saying.

As for the Apple comparison I think it's a fair one. It shows what is possible in customer service. Yes Panasonic broadcast has been more forthcoming than others in the same industry, and Panasonic consumer electronics haven't been more or less forthcoming than anyone else in their industry...but that doesn't change the fact that the quality of the customer service in both industries is, on the whole, total shi* compared to customer service in other industries...just because it's better than (in the case of broadcast) or no worse than (in the case of consumer) doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

I might be able to get Jan (or someone else from marketing [note, marketing, not an engineer..not that there's anything wrong with that, I love product managers]) to respond to a post on DVXuser that I made, and Barry Green might be able to get an engineer from Panasonic on the phone...hell maybe I could get one of the original developer engineers on the phone if I was having trouble with an HPX-3700...but I can't get past the call center peons (no offense intended they're very hardworking people they just aren't much help through no fault of their own) if my GH1 isn't behaving the way I'd like it to. But I, Ben, or Barry (well you're a PC guy right), or my friend Doug, or my grandma could get an engineer from Apple on the phone if we ask the right questions.

The fact that there exists, I don't care what industry its in, customer service where a consumer can talk directly to the engineer that designed the part of the product that is malfunctioning, or even not malfunctioning, by making a freaking phone call, should serve as an example of what is possible in customer service...and it's an example that all companies, regardless of industry, should strive to emulate...even if they only get to 10%.

noirist
10-22-2009, 12:57 PM
It seems like this thread is being interpreted as fanboy versus basher, which isn't a fair or accurate description of me or (I hope) most of us. I am very happy with my GH1 in most ways but I feel cheated in one respect.... The specs promise 1080p24 but the camera doesn't deliver that. Barry's resolution charts clearly show that we're not getting anywhere near 1080 horizontal lines or 1920 vertical lines of resolution. And in real life filming, it's clear that the GH1 isn't giving 1080p24. Here's a simple test... Start filming a person in 1080p close by and have them slowly walk backwards away from the camera. When they're about 15 feet away their image will suffer a marked degradation in resolution which would not happen if the camera was providing 1080p. So as is the GH1 is really providing something closer to 720p. How many people would have bought the GH1 if Panasonic had advertised it as upscaling 720p24 into a 1080i60 AVCHD wrapper? Increasing the bitrate of the codec will I hope mitigate this deficiency and so I think that's an entirely reasonable request.

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 01:02 PM
It seems like this thread is being interpreted as fanboy versus basher, which isn't a fair or accurate description of me or (I hope) most of us. I am very happy with my GH1 in most ways but I feel cheated in one respect.... The specs promise 1080p24 but the camera doesn't deliver that. Barry's resolution charts clearly show that we're not getting anywhere near 1080 horizontal lines or 1920 vertical lines of resolution. And in real life filming, it's clear that the GH1 isn't giving 1080p24. Here's a simple test... Start filming a person in 1080p close by and have them slowly walk backwards away from the camera. When they're about 15 feet away their image will suffer a marked degradation in resolution which would not happen if the camera was providing 1080p. So as is the GH1 is really providing something closer to 720p. How many people would have bought the GH1 if Panasonic had advertised it as upscaling 720p24 into a 1080i60 AVCHD wrapper? Increasing the bitrate of the codec will I hope mitigate this deficiency and so I think that's an entirely reasonable request.

That might be hardware so it might not work! Same with composite out while recording (HDMI out certainly is) or even 24pn (I've heard the sensor is native 60 which might be why 1080p uses a pulldown...) you never know...and that sucks :(

John Caballero
10-22-2009, 01:05 PM
Anybody attend the Photoplus expo in NYC?
I'm gonna try to stop by on saturday. Will hit up the Panasonic booth and ask what's going on. Hopefully, they have something to say.

I'll be going tomorrow. Panasonic is not in the exhibitors list.

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 01:09 PM
I'll be going tomorrow. Panasonic is not in the exhibitors list.

Of course not, everyone at the company is too busy working on our GH1 firmware to attend!

Barry_Green
10-22-2009, 01:17 PM
Yeah I realize they're different companies, but they're all under the Panasonic umbrella and someone at a higher level at Panasonic should care more about overall brand consistency and reputation....
What are they doing wrong? Where is the problem?

Anyway, Lexus and Toyota and Scion are all under the same umbrella, but I'm pretty safe in saying you'll get a different ownership experience for each. That's what paying more does for you.

You cannot expect to buy the bargain-basement model and get treated like you bought the top dog. That's just irrational.


As for the Apple comparison I think it's a fair one. It shows what is possible in customer service.
And that's the kind of service you'll get from Panasonic Broadcast. Now, go try to get an iPhone engineer on the phone and see how that turns out.


hell maybe I could get one of the original developer engineers on the phone if I was having trouble with an HPX-3700...
Yes, you could.


but I can't get past the call center peons (no offense intended they're very hardworking people they just aren't much help through no fault of their own) if my GH1 isn't behaving the way I'd like it to.
Correct. But you're talking about a commoditized $1500 piece of electronics, vs. a $40,000 specialized industry item.

And now it becomes a little more clear why broadcast stuff costs more, right?

You could get a Sales Support Engineer to fly out to your site and integrate your HPX3700 and HPM110 and all that into your facility. Guess where the budget for that comes from? Yep, the fact that you paid more for the product.

That isn't gonna happen if you go buying a TM300, and it's profoundly unrealistic to expect the service operations to work the same. Where does the budget for that come from?


But I, Ben, or Barry (well you're a PC guy right), or my friend Doug, or my grandma could get an engineer from Apple on the phone if we ask the right questions.
For something like a server? Yes. For an iPod Nano? I doubt it.


The fact that there exists, I don't care what industry its in, customer service where a consumer can talk directly to the engineer that designed the part of the product that is malfunctioning, or even not malfunctioning, by making a freaking phone call, should serve as an example of what is possible in customer service...
And if you're dealing with something like a server, that's possible. Or a broadcast product that costs $40,000.

But in those cases, you're talking about 1,000 or 5,000 units sold, and so the number of customers who might actually call is maybe 2%, so you'll deal with maybe 20 calls a month. So you build in the budget some room to afford that support.

Versus a GH1, which might sell 50,000 units a month, and the percentage of customers who might call will overwhelm the little 15% (or whatever it is) margin on the product.

If you want world class customer support, you can have it. If you want the lowest possible price, you can have that. But you cannot have both.

Try shopping at wal-mart, and shopping at Neiman Marcus. You'll find that the customer support is a little different at those two stores (and, coincidentally, so are the prices).

Still, I have no idea what this has to do with the original topic?

Barry_Green
10-22-2009, 01:20 PM
The specs promise 1080p24 but the camera doesn't deliver that. Barry's resolution charts clearly show that we're not getting anywhere near 1080 horizontal lines or 1920 vertical lines of resolution.
Neither does any other camera, including an HPX3700. The specs promise imaging that's recorded in 1080/24p, and that's what you get. You cannot ever have 1920x1080 discretely perfectly resolvable lines of detail out of any of these cameras.

If you're mad about the GH1 not giving that level of sharpness, pity the poor 5D and 7D users who are getting even lower res. But they're not complaining about it.

And in fact, NO DSLR is actually giving you high-definition footage anyway. None of 'em do. They're all, at best, medium-def with a whole lot of aliasing thrown in on top to make it look as if they're high def.

And that's the truth.


So as is the GH1 is really providing something closer to 720p. How many people would have bought the GH1 if Panasonic had advertised it as upscaling 720p24 into a 1080i60 AVCHD wrapper?
All the same folks would. Where else are you gonna go? The 7D and 5D and even the new 1D Mark IV all do the same thing. And they all cost more, from double to 7x as much. You'll get better sensitivity and noise performance and maybe some dynamic range improvements as you go up that ladder, but you're not going to get any more actual resolved detail.


Increasing the bitrate of the codec will I hope mitigate this deficiency and so I think that's an entirely reasonable request.
Nope, it'll have no effect whatsoever. The 7D has about 3x the bitrate of the GH1, and lower overall resolution. Fewer compression artifacts, yes -- but no additional resolution*. And far worse moire and color contamination.

It is due to the way the DSLRs work. Read the aliasing article and you'll see -- if it's a DSLR that also takes stills, it's gonna have these same issues.

You cannot, and will not, ever, get something for nothing. If you want true HD performance and shallow DOF, but all you're willing to pay is $1500, guess what -- there's gonna be some compromises. There's a reason that an HPX3700 costs $40,000...



*but the higher bitrate can help prevent the degradation of the resolution that you do have. We all want a higher bitrate in the GH1 because of its propensity to give up its resolved detail when the codec is under stress.

Nitsuj
10-22-2009, 01:26 PM
Once again you nailed it Barry.

John Caballero
10-22-2009, 01:38 PM
Barry Green knows what he is talking about. It is amazing how the complainers are complaining about a $1500 camera that delivers a superb image for its price if you really know what you are doing. Especially at 1080p. Just amazing.

Ben_B
10-22-2009, 01:44 PM
Barry Green knows what he is talking about. It is amazing how the complainers are complaining about a $1500 camera that delivers a superb image for its price if you really know what you are doing. Especially at 1080p. Just amazing.

I love the camera, of all the cameras I've ever used it's my favorite...and that includes the entire "low end" line from Panny broadcast D/H VX/MC/PX-100/200/200a/150/170/300/500, whatever.

bumkicho
10-22-2009, 01:49 PM
A year ago I was shooting with hv20+twoneil static adapter. A year ago or many months ago I was amazed as I watched 5D videos on vimeo and thought if I could only. Now? Everyday I am amazed that I have my GH1 and people compare it to 5D. Is this real? Was I able to buy, with my budget, a camera that could be compared to 5D? Wow. Just Wow.

Is Panasonic listening? Didn't GH1 come out because Panasonic listened in the first place?

Nitsuj
10-22-2009, 02:12 PM
I'm not sure I understand why people think they will be able to shoot a Kubrick-like masterpiece from their $1500 camera without any prior experience or solid works. It's been taken out of context for what it is I think. You certainly can shoot a beautiful film with this I think, but I have a feeling that people are expecting a look to come out of this camera that makes them an instant hit over night. I bet you anything that if Roger Deakins got a GH1 he would blow the minds of people here who think it is faulty. Then they would yell it is their unit that is defective because they couldn't achieve the same look. It's not so much the hardware but the craft of cinematography and of course the direction that leads to memorable images in a film. People want a magical camera that makes their images in their heads appear before them on the screen. The camera is just a peephole into the magic of filmmaking as a whole. The magic has little to do with the actual camera itself.

JerryB
10-22-2009, 05:04 PM
I understand what you are saying about talent over gear (this is no new concept). No one can open the box without any experience and produce Christopher Doyle images. I just don't understand some peoples stance. I think the overall consensus is that this camera is amazing for the price (why does this keep having to be repeated), but there are some features that hopefully could be added (much like canon did) that would make everyone's life a little easier. A firmware update with native 24p will not produce a better cinematographer, but it will produce a simpler work flow and possibly smoother 24p image.

If all the 5D Mark II buyers sat down and said, "this is the best we're gonna get and that's final", then there would be no manual controls or future native 24p. I don't understand why everyone won't rally together in supporting the possibility of more features. I don't think anyone would be making such a fuss over firmware updates for this camera if there wasn't a history of a similar camera getting them through consumer feedback (5d). The consumers had to RALLY TOGETHER to get them.

I also don't understand the "price" theory. The Mark II runs for $3500 new with the lens. With the new firmware update for 24p it seems impossible to find something comparable for that price. When you factor that the GH1 has a smaller sensor, lower bit rate, 4:2:0 color space and slower stock lens, I think it's somewhat reasonable at $1500 to have 24p native.

If someone doesn't support this, there's no need to knock the attempt. But I'm sure everyone will be in line to download a firmware update that offers any of the features we all are asking for, if they happen to get released. Correct?

I have not stopped shooting with the camera because there has not been a firmware update. I'm actually loving the camera more and more each day (the more primes i get) and only spending a very small amount of my time dreaming about new firmware for the camera.

shzr
10-22-2009, 07:03 PM
Jerry B

Thank you for a fair minded response.

thisisapocalypse
10-22-2009, 07:17 PM
jerry b

thank you for a fair minded response.

+1

The GEO
10-22-2009, 08:34 PM
+1

+2

TimurCivan
10-22-2009, 09:01 PM
My imagination has superior dynamic range to yours.

So awesome..... i love this quote.

TimurCivan
10-22-2009, 09:04 PM
"Happiness is not getting what you want; it's wanting what you've got."

Sheryl Crow?

PappasArts
10-22-2009, 10:51 PM
It's not so much the hardware but the craft of cinematography and of course the direction that leads to memorable images in a film.

You nailed it. It's those people that always see an amazing video and then go. ""I need to get the lens you have so i can get that great hard working look you got"" It's ridiculous; it's no different when the same lenses in Panavision's rental have shot the best movies; and as well have been used on the worst pieces of crap too. You won't here people who actually "DO" ever say. "" Man your last movie that won Best picture was so amazing that I need to get your lenses you rented so I can get best picture the following year. I mean come on. I have read this so many times on here with lenses. It's the Man, not the camera or the lens.

It's like this video shot using Canon FD primes.

http://vimeo.com/6942561

There FD primes, not the best, not the worst, however the reason this GH1 production looks good, is the Man behind the camera 100%; Not the lenses or gear!


.

ydgmdlu
10-23-2009, 01:01 AM
I've heard the sensor is native 60 which might be why 1080p uses a pulldown...
That's impossible. There's no possible way of obtaining true 24p (doesn't matter if it's "24p native" or "24p in a 60i wrapper") if the source is 60p or 60i. Furthermore, the fact that the degree of jello changes as you change frame rate modes proves that the camera is scanning the sensor at different rates to achieve different video frame rates.

Ben_B
10-23-2009, 01:18 AM
Sheryl Crow?

Lol that's what I was thinking but I think it's something else first.

AdrianF
10-23-2009, 01:51 AM
If someone doesn't support this, there's no need to knock the attempt. But I'm sure everyone will be in line to download a firmware update that offers any of the features we all are asking for, if they happen to get released. Correct?
You're correct, but I don't think anybody is knocking the attempt for a firmware update, well I'm not. I think all that some of us are saying here is, this camera is what it is. It's not a Canon 7D or a Varicam or a DVX or whatever. It comes with it's own strengths and weaknesses, just like all cameras do and it's pretty pointless IMO, to expect the camera to be updated to try and match the specs of another.

If the firmware update doesn't come, then I don't think we've got much to moan about. 2010 looks like it's going to be an even more interesting year, judging by what is coming from Red, Ikonoscop, Canon etc. Maybe the GH2 is around the corner? Either way there are increasing options for using different bodies for different purposes and I would quite happily keep the GH1 'as is' to shoot along side one of these others.

Nitsuj
10-23-2009, 09:15 AM
I understand what you are saying about talent over gear (this is no new concept). No one can open the box without any experience and produce Christopher Doyle images. I just don't understand some peoples stance. I think the overall consensus is that this camera is amazing for the price (why does this keep having to be repeated), but there are some features that hopefully could be added (much like canon did) that would make everyone's life a little easier. A firmware update with native 24p will not produce a better cinematographer, but it will produce a simpler work flow and possibly smoother 24p image.

If all the 5D Mark II buyers sat down and said, "this is the best we're gonna get and that's final", then there would be no manual controls or future native 24p. I don't understand why everyone won't rally together in supporting the possibility of more features. I don't think anyone would be making such a fuss over firmware updates for this camera if there wasn't a history of a similar camera getting them through consumer feedback (5d). The consumers had to RALLY TOGETHER to get them.

I also don't understand the "price" theory. The Mark II runs for $3500 new with the lens. With the new firmware update for 24p it seems impossible to find something comparable for that price. When you factor that the GH1 has a smaller sensor, lower bit rate, 4:2:0 color space and slower stock lens, I think it's somewhat reasonable at $1500 to have 24p native.

If someone doesn't support this, there's no need to knock the attempt. But I'm sure everyone will be in line to download a firmware update that offers any of the features we all are asking for, if they happen to get released. Correct?

I have not stopped shooting with the camera because there has not been a firmware update. I'm actually loving the camera more and more each day (the more primes i get) and only spending a very small amount of my time dreaming about new firmware for the camera.

You are correct JerryB but you also must see the certain people that come to these forums to say "My paid shoot was messed up because of this and that" and are blaming Panasonic for not coming out with a firmware update. If the issue was known before the shoot and discussed at length then why shoot in those circumstances? Or the other people that are saying "If Panasonic wants to keep me as a customer they will listen" as if that particular individual is the main reason they made the camera. It's falling into the lines of "The customer is always right!" which I think is BS. There are countless times a customer blurts out something they demand but don't understand the actual process involved with doing what they ask. And it's not that they ask or submit a suggestion, they try to rally up people that they believe should think the same way they do. If you don't think the same way then oh my Lord you are insane. And then you have the others that simply complain for complaining sake. The cynical vortexes of negativity that have either failed at what they tried or never tried at all. So they must push their frustration out onto others that are trying so they can feel better knowing it wasn't them but the equipment or other circumstances.

See the thing is there is a freaking sticky post in this very forum about this very subject yet you have countless posts being started that ALL say the exact same thing. Which brings me to my original point of why does this keep happening? It's like I am stuck in a time warp and see the same exact thing week after week? So I should send myself the winning lottery tickets.

SPZ
10-23-2009, 09:27 AM
I agree. The point here is to see how the GH1 could be upgraded in the same way the 7D and the 5D where- through software. Native 24p and maxing out the AVCHD codec to 24mbs or 25 are theoreticaly possible through firmware. What we want is for Panasonic to be back to its older form and be king of costumer feedback and support.

Barry_Green
10-23-2009, 10:05 AM
The 7D hasn't been upgraded through firmware at all yet. And the GH1 already has been, slightly, they took the maximum burst FPS rate from 3.000 fps to 3.500 fps.

So if you're wondering if they can and will upgrade it, apparently the answer is "yes" seeing as they have already done so.

shzr
10-23-2009, 11:10 AM
Of course not, everyone at the company is too busy working on our GH1 firmware to attend!

LOL, they're really not there! I'll ask the Olympus spies if they got any info.

Ozpeter
10-23-2009, 04:14 PM
For the market the Panasonic perceives the GH1 is aimed at, and selling mostly into, would the kind of firmware update people here are asking for (people I suspect represent a smallish proportion of the camera's market) make any kind of commercial sense? We have to remember that Panasonic are running a business not a charity, and while fixing actual bugs is one thing, providing capabilities beyond the advertised spec which was in force when we put down our money, is another.

Ben_B
10-23-2009, 04:28 PM
It puts the camera back into the news and on all the tech blogs...it's good from a marketing standpoint. Places might go back and review the camera again with the new firmware. Dealers have new information to use to sell the camera and might order more. The company will sell more...all with a product they already have developed, manufactured, and saturated throughout the pipeline...at no additional cost to them outside of developing and QAing the firmware...a fraction of the cost of developing a new camera, or allowing them to start to clear out inventory of the old camera in preparation for the launch of the new model...it could be great for them on a number of levels.

John Caballero
10-24-2009, 10:09 AM
LOL, they're really not there! I'll ask the Olympus spies if they got any info.

Info about what?

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
10-24-2009, 10:39 AM
It puts the camera back into the news and on all the tech blogs...it's good from a marketing standpoint. Places might go back and review the camera again with the new firmware. Dealers have new information to use to sell the camera and might order more. The company will sell more...all with a product they already have developed, manufactured, and saturated throughout the pipeline...at no additional cost to them outside of developing and QAing the firmware...a fraction of the cost of developing a new camera, or allowing them to start to clear out inventory of the old camera in preparation for the launch of the new model...it could be great for them on a number of levels.

Word(s)! :thumbsup:

onesock
10-24-2009, 07:37 PM
Out of curiosity, is there a reason there's no 720p 24p? Or MJPEG 24p for that matter? It seems like that'd be a pretty easy "fix" if they don't want to mess with bitrates and AVCHD.

Illya Friedman
10-24-2009, 11:58 PM
The 7D hasn't been upgraded through firmware at all yet. And the GH1 already has been, slightly, they took the maximum burst FPS rate from 3.000 fps to 3.500 fps.


7D has a new firmware upgrade to 1.0.9, went up last week.

shzr
10-26-2009, 07:15 AM
LoL a link from Edweirdo

from theblog of Stu M. (the magic-bullet dude)

http://prolost.com/blog/2009/10/22/the-ballad-of-the-gh1.html

Panasonic, you listening yet? say something.

JerryB
10-28-2009, 04:16 PM
I realize this is getting beat to death, but... I'll beat a little more. I sent a link of the petition (plus request for 24p in 720 & 1080 AVCHD) to the Panasonic customer support representative maybe a week ago for the second time since when the petition first was posted. I got a response back today from Panasonic saying, in quote...


Dear MR ********

Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately this firmware is not available.
However this has been requested and hopefully will be available in the
near future. Thank you for contacting Panasonic

Thank You,
Panasonic Consumer Support


This to me seems very promising and maybe ends this forum with answering, "Yes, Panasonic is listening, there just not being very vocal about it." Seems like a pretty positive response.

Nitsuj
10-28-2009, 04:22 PM
RUN! Zombie horse from hell! We just keep beating it and it keeps getting up! It won't die and now it's pissed! Aaaaaaahhhhhh!

But seriously I believe that is a good response. Thanks for sharing.

sirk
10-29-2009, 11:16 AM
indeed this is a good message! At least they acknowledge the issue!

Camera Expert
10-29-2009, 06:38 PM
I think we need to limit what we want of Panasonic because requesting them to do to many things at the same time may prove to be problematic. Having native 24p output as well as some form of video output should be the top priorities. All I’m saying is have them work on those first.

noirist
10-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Personally I don't care about 24p. If you want 24p, you can already shoot in 1080p24 or you can easily convert 720p60 to 720p24 in post. Nor do I care about the video output. But we will ALL benefit from increased image quality if Panasonic increases the bit rate of their AVCHD codec from 17Mbps to 24Mbps. And we will ALL benefit from a simpler workflow if Panasonic changes the 1080p AVCHD wrapper so that 1080p24 is represented as 1080p24 rather than 1080i60 requiring reverse telecine. So those two requests are to my mind the top priority.

JerryB
10-29-2009, 08:19 PM
I would think 720p24 would be at top of list. Unlikely that they will bump codec up. Processors are already pushing a lot for such a tiny cam at $1500 (but we can dream). At least in 720p the codec is more robust and there is much less mud and jello. It is mathematically impossible to get an even 24p out of 60p (Damn those PAL users). So to say "easy" to convert 60p to 24p is a little bit of an overstatement. The actual process may be easy, but the outcome varies on how good it's looks compared to native 24p.

matt9b
10-30-2009, 01:24 AM
COME ON PANASONIC!!! GIVE US PAL GH-1 USERS in the UK A FIRMWARE UPDATE TO INCLUDE 24p ............. PLEASE!!!!

Hopefully I shouted it loud enough for them to hear ..

matt9b
10-30-2009, 01:29 AM
Where do we go to make UK firmware requests from panny anyway? Doesn't seem to me much in the way of contact info for this on their websites..

matt9b
10-30-2009, 01:35 AM
I It is mathematically impossible to get an even 24p out of 60p (Damn those PAL users).

The 25p PAL model really isn't anything compared to your US models with 24p. The look of 24p (or 23.9xx) makes a HUGE difference to the feel of the motion. 24p is a world standard and is used on almost all music vids, and films, regardless of country.

Even though I'm in pal land, I would gladly swap my 25fps pal GH1 for a 24fps ntsc GH1 any day.

Camera Expert
10-30-2009, 01:39 AM
Personally I don't care about 24p. If you want 24p, you can already shoot in 1080p24 or you can easily convert 720p60 to 720p24 in post. Nor do I care about the video output. But we will ALL benefit from increased image quality if Panasonic increases the bit rate of their AVCHD codec from 17Mbps to 24Mbps. And we will ALL benefit from a simpler workflow if Panasonic changes the 1080p AVCHD wrapper so that 1080p24 is represented as 1080p24 rather than 1080i60 requiring reverse telecine. So those two requests are to my mind the top priority.
I donít get what you mean. You either donít care about 24p or you do care.

I love shooting in 720 60p over 1080 24p anyway but I do think itís beneficial if Panasonic fixes it and thatís what I meant earlier.

JerryB
10-30-2009, 11:34 AM
The 25p PAL model really isn't anything compared to your US models with 24p. The look of 24p (or 23.9xx) makes a HUGE difference to the feel of the motion. 24p is a world standard and is used on almost all music vids, and films, regardless of country.

Even though I'm in pal land, I would gladly swap my 25fps pal GH1 for a 24fps ntsc GH1 any day.

Good to know. I knew 25 over 24 would make a difference, but I didn't know how global it was. Either way, it would be nice to get native 24p and anything else we are all asking for.

Barry_Green
10-30-2009, 11:43 AM
The 25p PAL model really isn't anything compared to your US models with 24p. The look of 24p (or 23.9xx) makes a HUGE difference to the feel of the motion.
25p vs. 24p makes almost no difference in the perception of motion. A little tiny difference, yes, but only 4%. Movies for TV have been shot at 25fps in PAL territories for decades.

Camera Expert
10-30-2009, 01:00 PM
I would say that in the case of the GH1, 25p destroys 24p. With 24p you must remove pull-down and with 25p you don't deal with all that headache although you do have an annoying time limit on Pal models.

Revsta
10-30-2009, 01:10 PM
I don't see the point of native 720x24. Just drop it in a 24p timeline or convert with Neoscene. Simple.

Martti Ekstrand
10-30-2009, 01:12 PM
although you do have an annoying time limit on Pal models.

Not if you get the Hong Kong / Australian version, those are PAL and no taxation limit on recording time.

Ben_B
10-30-2009, 02:03 PM
I think we need to limit what we want of Panasonic because requesting them to do to many things at the same time may prove to be problematic. Having native 24p output as well as some form of video output should be the top priorities. All I’m saying is have them work on those first.

Agreed. Those seem like the things that are easiest to implement and would help the most. Monitor out would solve a lot of problems because people could be sure of their footage on set (I watch critical shots back over HDMI to a production monitor but realtime would be nice...while most codec crap doesn't show up in real time and only on playback, things like banding do.) Improving the codec may not be feasible.

Barry_Green
10-30-2009, 02:06 PM
I would say that in the case of the GH1, 25p destroys 24p. With 24p you must remove pull-down and with 25p you don't deal with all that headache although you do have an annoying time limit on Pal models.
As far as workflow, certainly. The pulldown is nonsense and should be exorcised like a demon from any future products.

I'm just talking about the look. I seriously doubt there's any person alive who could tell the difference between something shot at 24p and something shot at 25p.

Barry_Green
10-30-2009, 02:08 PM
Improving the codec may not be feasible.
Indeed it may not be. But it might be. I say keep complaining if it's something that bothers you. Maybe it can be fixed. And if it can't, at least our voices will make them think twice before putting a similar codec in any future product.

In the meantime, you have to learn to work with the product you've got; recognizing that complaining about any particular shortcoming is not likely to change the camera that you have in your hands. So work with it, while directing your wishes and complaints to those who have the power to do something about them.

Ben_B
10-30-2009, 02:10 PM
Indeed it may not be. But it might be. I say keep complaining if it's something that bothers you. Maybe it can be fixed. And if it can't, at least our voices will make them think twice before putting a similar codec in any future product.

In the meantime, you have to learn to work with the product you've got; recognizing that complaining about any particular shortcoming is not likely to change the camera that you have in your hands. So work with it, while directing your wishes and complaints to those who have the power to do something about them.

Exactly. And lets not kid ourselves. "Improving" the codec is the correct phrase, "fixing" is not. This is a great camera and people can do kick ass stuff with it.

matt9b
10-30-2009, 03:24 PM
I seriously doubt there's any person alive who could tell the difference between something shot at 24p and something shot at 25p.

I can tell the difference, hands down, on the GH-1. Have taken blind tests of a GH-1 PAL and GH-1 NTSC and got it correct 100% of the time. The NTSC version just looks so much more filmic. There's no contest. It's not even subtle or guess work. Smashes me in the face.

When we ask for this 24p update, it should be for ALL models, not just the US one.

If they don't introduce 24p to PAL model soon (whether it be through 60i pull-down or not, any 24p would be a relief), then I'm going to have to consider moving across to the Canon 7D. I don't undestand how they could leave the major function of 24p off the european model. Do we not make music vids or films? Anyway, come on Panny give us a 24p firmware update please, in the UK.

The least they could do is allow a firmware update so we can choose whether we want PAL or NTSC. THat would seem to solve everyone's issues with frame rate.

JerryB
10-30-2009, 08:19 PM
Exactly. And lets not kid ourselves. "Improving" the codec is the correct phrase, "fixing" is not. This is a great camera and people can do kick ass stuff with it.

I agree fully. There have been great things done with the current codec and although I would like an improvement, it is definitely not at the top of my list. I have personally been shooting a doc at 720p with lots of gun-stock hand held shots. 720p looks holds up great and if it had native 24p if would look even more filmic right out of the cam. Right now for $1500 I can deal with only using 1080p for very controlled narrative shots.

stevedocmaker
11-14-2009, 12:08 PM
If you have any doubts whether the gh1 is capable of delivering an "A" performnace image; then you should look at this video.

http://vimeo.com/6942561

From the day I decided to go with the GH1, months ago after testing the 5DMII, I have not regretted it once; even for a second. Which is a first for me with cameras. This camera delivers an image that is far an above anything we had before anywhere near this price range; and that, I dont want to loose perspective of... It can hold it's own against very expensive systems and not be ashamed.

I do notice one thing. All the actual people who do and deliver; have been the tiniest group of complainers. The ones who don't, or "the neophytes", have been the loudest complainers in the GH1 bashing/FUD arena IMHO.......... Hmmm interesting!


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com


I've been in the business for over 25 years. Look at this video, you can tell instantly which scenes were shot with the stock lens and which were shot with primes. Using primes on the GH1 negates almost all the advantage of this camera over the 5dII or 7d (except price). Maybe they will release a high quality IS lens soon, but until they do there will be few converts.

John Caballero
11-14-2009, 12:53 PM
I've been in the business for over 25 years. Look at this video, you can tell instantly which scenes were shot with the stock lens and which were shot with primes.

Can you please enlighten us which ones are they so Mr. Shaw can corroborate your findings?

Park Edwards
11-14-2009, 01:43 PM
Using primes on the GH1 negates almost all the advantage of this camera over the 5dII or 7d (except price).

and can you elaborate on this a bit more? i don't quite understand your thinking here. why is it that primes are worse than the kit lens?

edit: whoa? did anyone else see the naked chic hanging on the wall in that video?

Ben_B
11-14-2009, 03:59 PM
Using primes on the GH1 negates almost all the advantage of this camera over the 5dII or 7d (except price). Maybe they will release a high quality IS lens soon, but until they do there will be few converts.

No...it brings it up to par with those cameras which you'll also be using primes on if you're smart....the GH1's prime (pun) non-price advantages are its small size, EVF, swiveling LCD, and video-camera like controls.

Martti Ekstrand
11-14-2009, 04:30 PM
Plus thanks the short focal flange length the ability to attach lenses with nearly any kind of lens mount ever made with inexpensive adapters found all over eBay.

Ben_B
11-14-2009, 04:36 PM
There's just so many reasons :)