PDA

View Full Version : 7D vs 5DMk2 - How much worse is the 7D?



salils
10-16-2009, 12:40 AM
Besides sensitivity, how much worse is the quality of the 7D compared to the 5D Mark II?

jensenfilms
10-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Many tests that I have read/viewed actually put the 7D up on the 5D for sensitivity, although the 7D shows more grain. For overall 'quality' differences, you may be splitting hairs. Both cameras produce an outstanding picture. Bloom actually prefers the 7D (framerate):

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/10/01/5dmkii-or-the-7d/

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 08:28 AM
Like when any new camera comes out there has a been a lot of hyperbole about the 7D on this forum. I have seen a lot of stunning 5D night time footage, and my own tests in low light confirm that it absolutely 'sings' in such conditions. The low light stuff I have seen from the 7D so far doesn't really do it for me. Show me some amazing stuff, not a test.

Personally (and it is just an opinion personal to my own needs) the 5D works better for me because I can use 35mm lenses on a full frame sensor.

When you take that into account, all these tests, charts and noise pale into relative insignificance. It's the lens that most defines the look of your film, after all.

A Zeiss 25mm T* Distagon is a magical lens for the money, and on the 5D it really is a 25mm wide angle. A Canon L lens for example, at 17mm is really really wide and uses the full image circle of the lens on the 5D. On the 7D it is much less impressive.

Of course, sure, there are some very nice wide EFS lenses. Canon 10-20mm for example. The new 15-85mm IS kit another. But the classic lenses of the 1970's look better on the 5D. For example, a Asahi Pentax Super Takuma 50mm F1.4 on a 5D is what it is - how it was designed to look - but to replicate that look on a 1.6x crop 7D is a lot harder. I found myself with the GH1 and it's 2x crop having to spend £600 on a fast F1.4 portrait lens, because the lens has to be twice as wide to achieve 50mm equiv. - quite an engineering challenge for the manufacturers.

I am not sure about things like colour and dynamic range. I'd like to test that head to head. Detail also. I think they're probably quite close although I do notice the 5D's low light performance counts for a lot when it comes to colour tones. It holds onto it's colours extremely well in low light. Can a much smaller sensor do the same? I have seen with my own eyes that the GH1, with it's 2x crop sensor, cannot. So I have my doubts but have yet to seen evidence either way.

But for me, full frame lenses trump 24p any time. 30p is not too hard a hit to take when you have such a large advantage in terms of lenses.

morgan_moore
10-16-2009, 08:32 AM
Other threads have shown the 7d to look a bit sloppy in grabs

persoanl experience it has not 'sung' for me yet

given the obvious noise due to sensor size issue i think the question should be..

Is the 7d worse under similar good light circumstances?

If I hadnt sold my 5 I would be testing

S

Stephen Mick
10-16-2009, 08:50 AM
All good points, Spike. And I happen to have a slightly different view on a few of them. :D

Having shot the 5D and 7D side by side, I can say with confidence that there is no "stomping" going on, except maybe in low light. And even then, it's not a stomping. The 5D wins, but the 7D performs admirably, and far better than the GH1 I had. Color rendering and dynamic range "felt" very similar to me. Now, granted, the 5D is going to produce superior still images, no doubt. But from what I saw, the difference in video was imperceptible, at least to my eye.

While I agree that matching a "look" between FF lenses and EF-S lenses takes some effort, I wouldn't call it hard. I've got lenses that cover 11mm to 200mm for my 7D. When a friend brought over his 5D and 50mm f1.4 lens, it took maybe five seconds to match his framing (near-perfectly) on my 17-55 zoom lens. So I see this as a non-issue, though others may not.

If you have a collection of legacy lenses, and you're comfortable with focal lengths as they are, then maybe the 7D is not for you. And if the additional frame rates of the 7D are important to the OP, than maybe that will help make his decision.

And something to think about… Having shot full-frame with "L" lenses in the past, sometimes the corners and edges of these lenses (any lenses) can be soft wide-open on a full-frame camera. But put them on an APS-C camera, and the "crop factor" can work to your advantage. I had this experience with the Canon 35mm f1.4L lens, one of their top lenses. On a 5D, edge softness wide open was obvious. But when I stuck it on my old 40D, it became a really sharp "normal" length lens. As soon as I can convince a client to pay for it (soon, hopefully), I'll pick up the same lens for my 7D. It makes a great walk-around prime lens on a 1.6x crop camera.

Ultimately, the OP asked specifically about "quality," which isn't really specific at all. It could mean any number of things, and without some clarification from him, it's hard to answer his question with any real accuracy.

jensenfilms
10-16-2009, 08:58 AM
...."not a test"...http://vimeo.com/6487566

mhood
10-16-2009, 09:02 AM
When a friend brought over his 5D and 50mm f1.4 lens, it took maybe five seconds to match his framing (near-perfectly) on my 17-55 zoom lens.

Just curious...do you remember where the 17-55 matched? And did they match in terms of FOV and/or DOF? Similar bokeh?

Stephen Mick
10-16-2009, 09:09 AM
If I remember correctly, I think FOV matched pretty closely around 32mm on the zoom. (I don't have the 5D or I'd run a test and let you know for sure.) DOF was perhaps a hair shallower on the 5D/50mm combo, but it wasn't a huge difference.

The quality of the bokeh was (to my eye) fairly identical, which isn't a surprise to me as the 50mm has 8 aperture blades and the 17-55 has 7 blades, and both lenses (I believe) have rounded blades.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 09:39 AM
I think the slight difference in personal opinion between Stephen and I shows that the difference in quality between the two cameras in video mode is small enough to be down to what works best for your own personal shooting style.

The 5D fell into my hands first, and the image in low light seems to have an 'edge', and it works well with my existing Zeiss lenses. So my opinion of it is quite positive.

I think we've both right, in our own way, so your own personal opinion of which to get, having read all the pros and cons of each must be the overriding factor.

Bokeh is lens dependant, and on the Contax Zeiss range is often ninja-star shaped. The Zeiss Hasselblad I have is almost hexagonal, while other lenses are rounded especially beyond F4. So again it comes down to personal taste a lot of the time.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 09:43 AM
...."not a test"...http://vimeo.com/6487566

This is a really nice one, which has been doing the rounds for quite some time.

I was talking about really low light stuff though.

Stephen Mick
10-16-2009, 09:45 AM
And hey, there are even people who like the donut-shaped bokeh of mirrored lenses. To each his, or her, own.

Stephen Mick
10-16-2009, 09:58 AM
For many people, I think it becomes largely about "where you come from."

Example… If you're a still shooter, and you think you might want to get into shooting video, the 5D is a natural. All the FF benefits, and with 30p video.

If you're a young aspiring filmmaker, the 7D is likely better, as you probably have few, if any lenses, likely need the additional frame rates, and have a more limited budget.

And if you're like me, and want either a "b-camera" to get additional shots, or a more compact "a-camera" for travel, the 7D wins, again simply based on being able to match framerates easily with my other cameras.

--SM


I think the slight difference in personal opinion between Stephen and I shows that the difference in quality between the two cameras in video mode is small enough to be down to what works best for your own personal shooting style.

The 5D fell into my hands first, and the image in low light seems to have an 'edge', and it works well with my existing Zeiss lenses. So my opinion of it is quite positive.

I think we've both right, in our own way, so your own personal opinion of which to get, having read all the pros and cons of each must be the overriding factor.

Bokeh is lens dependant, and on the Contax Zeiss range is often ninja-star shaped. The Zeiss Hasselblad I have is almost hexagonal, while other lenses are rounded especially beyond F4. So again it comes down to personal taste a lot of the time.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 10:24 AM
5D versus 7D clips are still mostly in their infancy but I will round up the best that I find here.

*** Jello ***
http://www.vimeo.com/6986229
(Shows that in 60p the 7D is better, but at 24p it's about the same. In 30p the difference is also marginal).

*** Low light ***
http://www.vimeo.com/6876905
This needs to be seen at full res, on a big TV 42 or 50 inch really. The 5D is a lot sharper at ISO 1600. But it's not exactly the greatest kind of shot to gauge low light performance. It's actually a well lit room!

*** Colour, dynamic range and 'punch' ***
http://www.vimeo.com/6869516
For me, the 5D is my preference here. Deeper colour and more contrast.

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 10:26 AM
This is a really nice one, which has been doing the rounds for quite some time.

I was talking about really low light stuff though.

http://www.vimeo.com/7002302

First minute and then the final shot are f4 and iso 1000.

I'd say the 7D can handle lowlight pretty good from some shots I tried out.

There's a shot going over a bridge Shot at f4 and iso 1250 as well near the start.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 10:29 AM
Yes but high ISO in good light and in low light are very different matters.

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 10:29 AM
I think you can match colour pretty easily between the 2. 5D will have an edge in DR though.

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 10:35 AM
All shots f1.4 shutter 1/50, First is ISO 320 to show how dark it is in my bathroom, second is ISO 800, 3rd is ISO 1250.

Compressed frames grabs, but noise isn't objectionable. I'll throw the video on vimeo in a bit. All handheld though, so it'll be shaky for sure.

Decided I'd add a 4th frame grab and this video I'll add to vimeo right now.

It's from last night of my dad smoking a cigar. Backlit by only a 40watt bulb, some fill from a fireplace 20feet away, a tv screen, and the most remote of light coming from outside and twilight.

For the towel shots I'm obviously trying to expose for the red towel.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 10:37 AM
Thats pretty good. Seems very close to the 5D but can you do some colourful scenes and see how it holds onto colour saturation when the lights are turned waaay down at ISO 1600?

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 10:44 AM
Yeah no problem.

Keep in mind I shoot with saturation turned all the way down in neutral, so you can definitely boost more colour into the shots.

What settings are you using on the 5D? Faithful? I can set-up a colour profile to try and match your settings on the 5D

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 10:49 AM
Also on that link I sent you at around 3:30 there's an ISO 6400 shot of cigar smoking at like f5.6 or 8 so that might help you out too in gauging saturation at a high ISO

That was a similar set-up except stopped down to see how the camera can peform at something like ISO 6400.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 10:56 AM
Also on that link I sent you at around 3:30 there's an ISO 6400 shot of cigar smoking at like f5.6 or 8 so that might help you out too in gauging saturation at a high ISO

That was a similar set-up except stopped down to see how the camera can peform at something like ISO 6400.

Which link is that? Can't find it anywhere. Would like to see that.

I think the newer sensor is improved, but smaller. So trade off is not that big. They look quite evenly matched.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 11:03 AM
ISO 1600, 7D is on the left, 5D on the right.

http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/canon7d/assets/ISO1600_5DMKII_vs_7D.jpg

Main article here (http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/canon7d/)

That gives you an idea of the ISO performance of the sensor, also the base image the video mode has to scale to 1080p from.

For stills that is no small difference. For video mode, the difference should be less but you will lose some colour accuracy due to the discolouration from noise.

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 11:05 AM
This one http://www.vimeo.com/7002302

it's 3:30 in. I was basically going around testing high ISO and aliasing in deep focus shots.

I just turned off all the lights in my bedroom and shot a kodak picture cd envelope with nothing but the ambient light of my computer screen filling up some of the room. I'll throw a few frame grabs up and post the video on vimeo. I need to sign up for a plus account.

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 11:06 AM
Based on that grab the 7D has more noise, but retains more saturation.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 11:23 AM
Based on that grab the 7D has more noise, but retains more saturation.

I have a slightly different view. I think the noise makes the image look darker. Darker green, but not a more saturated green.

commanderspike
10-16-2009, 11:28 AM
This one http://www.vimeo.com/7002302

it's 3:30 in. I was basically going around testing high ISO and aliasing in deep focus shots.

I just turned off all the lights in my bedroom and shot a kodak picture cd envelope with nothing but the ambient light of my computer screen filling up some of the room. I'll throw a few frame grabs up and post the video on vimeo. I need to sign up for a plus account.

Some nice moments in there. Like the shot of the building and sunset from high up, it goes well with that point in the song. And the ending was good.

The ISO 6400 shot seemed pretty great to me. In the dark areas, obviously there is a lot of noise but the 5D is like that too.

Rory_B
10-16-2009, 11:34 AM
ISO 6400 is definitely usable for certain scenarios for web-based showings I'd say. It's pretty surprising that any sort of usable shot could be obtained.

KeeganFlynn
10-16-2009, 11:49 AM
ISO 1600, 7D is on the left, 5D on the right.

Main article here (http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/canon7d/)

That gives you an idea of the ISO performance of the sensor, also the base image the video mode has to scale to 1080p from.

For stills that is no small difference. For video mode, the difference should be less but you will lose some colour accuracy due to the discolouration from noise.
They used ACR to process the RAW 7D files. By most accounts, DPP has been doing a much better job of conversion, especially in regards to noise. I don't expect the 7D to beat the 5D Mk2 in noise at all because of the FF sensor, but I think the 7D can do better than that in 1600.

At this point I don't really think any reputable site should be reviewing 7D RAW performance with the beta support for the 7D that ACR has right now.

morgan_moore
10-16-2009, 12:39 PM
err these are stills are they not ?

S

Uwe Lansing
10-17-2009, 03:14 AM
...
The ISO 6400 shot seemed pretty great to me...

Yes, take also a look at this clip here: http://www.vimeo.com/7062843 its all shot with the kit lens 18-135 + 50/1.8 at iso 6400 (quite shaky)...

dcloud
10-17-2009, 04:27 AM
Had some noise problems at 1200 iso. but overall, i love the low light performance. asking for more just means you reaaally dont know how to light a scene.

commanderspike
10-17-2009, 07:12 AM
The ISO 6400 footage is really well lit indoors but still impressive. I am bit confused as to how the first shots in good light have more noise than the later shots though. Is it all shot in ISO 6400?

Although the 7D has a smaller sensor, Canon have clearly improved it's sensitivity in the extra year they had to develop the 7D.

And the noise reduction looked to be doing a very good job. It was clearly turned up high, but still... pretty good.

Uwe Lansing
10-17-2009, 08:22 AM
...
And the noise reduction looked to be doing a very good job. It was clearly turned up high, but still... pretty good.

I think you´ve got a point there. I´ve read it several times now - it seems that canon has improved the nr quite a bit by comparison to earlier models (incl. 5DII).


The EOS 7D features not one but two DIGIC 4 processors, which produces noticeably faster image processing, start-up and image review times than previous Canon DSLRs that we've reviewed (as you'd expect), and better noise reduction in high-ISO imageshttp://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/canon_eos_7d_review/

ericcosh
10-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Very nice. Kudos.