Mixing 7D footage with the other cameras

[shorty15]

I will try to explain this as best as I can. I am currently working on a script for a film that in a nutshell, will be in black and white. The film is about a public access radio station that needs to find funding to stay afloat (it is a comedy). It will be shot in a film noir style due to the fact that the station plays vintage jazz music, but it will also have a documentary feel mixing traditional film noir lighting and camera work with a run and gun documentary-esque. Think a comedic mix of citizen kane, goodnight and goodluck and clerks in terms of cinematography.

I have done a great deal of research about the 7D and have decided to use it as my primary camera, but as many of you know, the 7D is not a great camera for run and gun, due to the presence of (in my opinion) severe rolling shutter, lack of in camera stabilization (i know i can get stabilized lenses but my funds are limited so I really need in-body stabilization). I have decided to also purchase a secondary camera to do things the 7D is not that great at. As of now, I have settled on the Canon HFS100 (ya I know its a grand but it is probably the best consumer cam you can by and the footage seems very good for its price). I am wondering if it will mix well with 7D footage. There are codec differences, the 7D shoots at 50 Mbps and the HFS100 shoots at 24Mbps.


I also planning on comedic uses of slow motion. I know that the 7D can do 60p but it is 720 and I from what I have seen, there is a noticeable drop in image quality when the camera goes from 1080 to 720. The Canon HFS100 shoots 60i at 1080. My question is, if I use JES deinterlacer, will I get 60p that I can them conform to 30p to get great slow motion while still maintaing full HD quality?

Finally, I am also looking to use a camera with a smaller sensor so I can get a nice mix of shallow and deep depth of field. I think that with these new DSLR's the shallow dof is being way overdone and it is losing its dramatic effect. I think that camera like the HFS100 will allow my to get a deeper depth of field and still shoot at a lower aperture due to the smaller sensor (the HFS100 has a minimum aperture of 1.8 with a 1/2 inch sensor so it should it should be decent with low light and still give me a deep depth of field. I know the 7D can do deep dof but not without stopping down and ruining the low light advantage that I had because of the large sensor). Any opinions on mixing 7D footage and HFs!00 footage? Or if you think I can do all of this with one camera?

[Michael Olsen]

Depending on what you plan on displaying your work on, you might consider waiting to see how the rolling shutter is when set in 720p/60. And you may also wish to consider something like this rather than shooting with a second camera:

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/pkg_overview.aspx?ui=47C4AB50-4636-4326-87D1-FB380B2119EF

[shorty15]

I am planning on festival projection so I def need the the full HD and not 720, I am not worried about the rolling stutter because I will only use the 7D for locked down shots and rig shots like cranes, dollys and steadycam. I want a smaller sensor cam for the documentary esque-fast motion stuff due to the stabilization and deeper depth of field. If you have seen arrested development of the office, that is the look I want to use part of the time (you know the hand held look with occasional zooms. It is not recommended that you zoom with DSLR's). I just want to know if people think these two cams would mix well together for theater project. I know that with proper grading, I can get the footage very close and most people wont notice but I am a little of a perfectionist and I don't want people to be like "wow that is totally shot on a different camera"

[kwoff]

In a different thread, Barry Green indicated that the HVX200 would not intercut well with a Panasonic GH-1 because the GH-1 would be sharper and have a shallower DOF. If this is true of the HVX200, which is a progressive frame camera, I would guess it would be equally true of deinterlaced HF100 footage and the 7D, since software deinterlacing often discards one of the two interlaced fields making up each frame, thereby reducing resolution, and the 7D has even higher resolution than the GH-1. The 7D would also have a much shallower DOF than the HF100, and I believe the HF100 has a smaller sensor than the HVX, which suggests that the HF100 might have a deeper DOF than the HVX. However, if you want a different look for the footage shot with each camera, maybe these differences won't be that important to you.

Hope that helps. Maybe Barry will toss in his two cents on this thread as well, which would be good since my conclusion is based entirely on his earlier post.

Kevin

[Barry_Green]

the 7D has even higher resolution than the GH-1
The 7D likely does not have higher resolution than the GH-1.


if I use JES deinterlacer, will I get 60p that I can them conform to 30p to get great slow motion while still maintaing full HD quality?

Short answer? No. Long answer: 1080/60i makes for okay-ish slow-motion. The motion is fine but you're looking at a massive drop in resolution. Some of that will be regained due to guesswork/interpolation, but -- you'd probably be better off with true 720/60p from a camera that can deliver proper 720/60.


There are codec differences, the 7D shoots at 50 Mbps and the HFS100 shoots at 24Mbps.

Yes, and based strictly on the codecs I would not be surprised at all to see that the HFS100 shots look *better* (codec-wise) than the 7D. The HFS100 may be using a full and proper implementation of AVCHD, whereas the 7D only partly supports it, and tries to make up for the rest with bandwidth. You cannot judge quality by the numbers alone.


the HFS100 has a minimum aperture of 1.8 with a 1/2 inch sensor
The HFS100's sensor isn't 1/2". It's closer to 1/3" than 1/2". It's 1/2.6", or 0.38", which is a lot closer to 0.33 than it is to 0.50.

So if you wanted deeper DOF, the HFS100 will be deeper than you were expecting.

Short answer: will they intermix? Not really, but with enough time and effort you can match most things together.

[shorty15]

All I m saying is, I love the look of the 7D but lets face it, the camera is not good for run and gun stuff and I want some shots in deep DOF and you can do this on the 7D but you have to shoot at around f8 and that just kills the low light capabilities. If I can do the shoot with one camera, that would be great but I don't think but I fear that the difference between the two cameras will be too much. BTW, I will be shooting with Schneider Classic Soft diffusion filters to get rid of the HD "bite" and make it look more like film.

In a nutshell, I want to know if the HFS100 would make an acceptable b-cam to the 7D
(also, alot of people get the HF100 and HFS100 mixed up, the HFS100 is a significantly improved version with a bigger lens and sensor).

[shorty15]

Barry, thanks for clearing up the the sensor size issue. I was wondering why deinterlacing 60i footage to 60p would decrease the resolution. I am just converting 60i to 60p and then using compressor to conform to 30p and extend the length of the clip by 2X. You think that 720 60p would be better than a 60i to 60p conversion? Now I am really confused. At this point, I am thinking about just eliminating the run and gun aspect of the film and just film within the limits of the 7D. I fear that the footage will not mix well.

There are a couple of videos on vimeo :http://www.vimeo.com/5643230, http://www.vimeo.com/6552062, that intermix 5D and HFS100 footage and honestly, it was really hard to tell but Barry knows what he is talking about and I am going so high quality and at this point, I am worried that the difference between the two cams will be too stark.

[visugeek]

You might also want to think about Super 16. B&W film is way cheap, and the processing is cheap as well.

Getting a place like Cinelicious to do the HD transfer would not be that expensive as there is only the gray scale to worry about, so there is little to no color timing involved.

Good Super 16 cameras rent for about $250 per day, depending on your shooting schedule, that might work for you.

If you you run the numbers you might see that for this project it's less money to rent the camera, buy and process the stock, and transfer it than to buy the 2 cameras and any additional lenses or gear for the setup that you are going to need.

6 months form now there will be a new digital camera du jour to drool over.



http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=20015&cat=605&page=1

I think it's a 3 day week rental.

http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=11

They are $275 per hour, but can transfer at least 20 minutes of color footage in that amount of time, and probably more since the B&W requires only a gray scale grading.

http://www.yalefilmandvideo.com/filmprocessing16mm.php?expandable=2

Fotokem, technicolor, and pro 8mm may have better deals.

Just a suggestion.

Cheers!

[shorty15]

I considered 16mm but I will be shooting on my college campus and the local rental house does not have a 16mm camera. Additionally, this film will be shot over a long period of time, basically whenever i can film and my fellow actors are free. Thus, 16mm would not work because of the scheduling and the fact that I cannot get one locally. Also, I have a source on campus that can loan me top notch Canon lenses so I have decided to go with digital. I have done the cost calculation and the 16mm telecine process is just too expensive. This is intended to be a portfolio piece for film school so I will have lots of options to shoot film later. Back to the 7D/ HFS100 mix..... Anyone have any ideas?

[Barry_Green]

I was wondering why deinterlacing 60i footage to 60p would decrease the resolution.
Because 60i = 540p. You have sixty "fields" per second, each of 540 lines.


I am just converting 60i to 60p
Yes, by taking each 540-line field and turning it into a full frame. So now you have 60 frames, but each of them only have 540 lines of detail.


You think that 720 60p would be better than a 60i to 60p conversion?
Probably, but you'll have to try it to see.


There are a couple of videos on vimeo :http://www.vimeo.com/5643230, http://www.vimeo.com/6552062, that intermix 5D and HFS100 footage and honestly, it was really hard to tell
Well, yeah, but that's on vimeo, where everything's been converted down to 720p and then compressed to death. See if you can get the original files and see what the actual comparison is. It may very well turn out that the little Canon will be a good match for what you want to do. Based on the questions you asked, I gave the answers that I think are probably right, but if you see the results and you like what you see, that's all that matters.

[shorty15]

if the 60i equals 540p, does that mean the the 24f and 30f is at 540p resolution? Afterall, the 24f is in a 60i wrapper.

I am starting to think that I should just shoot with the 7D. Does anyone have advice on shooting run and gun? The only thing I don't like is the lack of zoom with the 7D. I know you can zoom but it is very jerky. God, I wish there was a camera that fits my needs.

[cjwolff]

if the 60i equals 540p, does that mean the the 24f and 30f is at 540p resolution? Afterall, the 24f is in a 60i wrapper.

I am starting to think that I should just shoot with the 7D. Does anyone have advice on shooting run and gun? The only thing I don't like is the lack of zoom with the 7D. I know you can zoom but it is very jerky. God, I wish there was a camera that fits my needs.

https://store.zacuto.com/DSLR-Tactical-Shooter.html

[Barry_Green]

if the 60i equals 540p, does that mean the the 24f and 30f is at 540p resolution? Afterall, the 24f is in a 60i wrapper.
It's not the wrapper that causes the resolution drop, it's the interlaced scanning of 60i. 24F and 30F may be quite a bit higher res than 60i.

[Kegan]

You just need to learn how to shoot with the form factor. It might be jerky at first, but I think it is definitely possible to work with. I bought a Zacuto Rapid Fire for run n' gun stuff and when my 7D comes in, I'm going to practice until I get it down pat.

Kegan

[Michael Olsen]

if the 60i equals 540p, does that mean the the 24f and 30f is at 540p resolution? Afterall, the 24f is in a 60i wrapper. I am starting to think that I should just shoot with the 7D.

I think that's a smart move.


Does anyone have advice on shooting run and gun?

Not personal advice, but - keep the actual "running" to a minimum. A fast dolly or slider would do a lot to help your image quality and help reduce some of the skew difficulties. Using a rig like the Zacuto or Cinevate would be smart, especially with a Z-finder or LCDVF. If you can find someone with a steadicam...well, that's all the better! :)


The only thing I don't like is the lack of zoom with the 7D. I know you can zoom but it is very jerky. God, I wish there was a camera that fits my needs.

Er...lack of zoom? There are gobs of lenses that zoom...the kit lens zooms. And the zoom is totally manual - its as smooth as the operator or AC is. I'd imagine you could even put a follow focus on your zoom if smoothness and precision are a big deal.

The aperture will be jerky, unless you have the lens declicked or have managed to find a way to stick a cinema lens on there!