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Polanski
09-25-2009, 07:41 AM
I would like to buy any of this camera.
Is there any article comparing the pros and cons of each?

Thanks

Michael Olsen
09-25-2009, 07:48 AM
Just a quick list...I'll edit it with other comments.

7D

Pros:
- Native 24p, no pulldown
- Relatively better codec
- Low light sensitivity
- Possibility for shallower DOF
Cons:
- Aliasing/moire
- Fixed LCD
- 4GB filesize limit (roughly 12 minutes)

GH1

Pros:
- Can accept pretty much any lens with proper adapter
- Record time limited only by the size of recording medium
- Flip-out rotational LCD
Cons:
- Compression/codec can create mud
- 24p requires pulldown in post

Some people like the look of the GH1 image, some prefer the Canon. My advice on everything in general - go to a camera store and try them both out. Bring an SD card and a CF card, take some footage, look at it at home or in the office, throw it around for quick CC and get a feel for things. Sure, you'll just be shooting in a store, but that should be enough to give a general feel.

Does anyone know if the resolution of the GH1 has been measured on some charts anywhere? That would be an interesting comparison.

Jean Dantes
09-25-2009, 07:49 AM
I know this isn't what you asked for, but this article by Philip Bloom compages the 7D to the 5D:

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/09/23/5dmkii-or-the-7d/

The one comparison that I would like to see between the 7D and GH1 would be a rolling-shutter comparison. There have been none yet. You may have to wait for the 7D to become more widespread before you see a direct test between the two.

PaPa
09-25-2009, 08:52 AM
im sure its no question that the GH1 is much better in terms of rolling shutter over the 7D, we've seen some good examples and i think the GH1 comes pretty close to the RED in those terms.

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 09:29 AM
im sure its no question that the GH1 is much better in terms of rolling shutter over the 7D, we've seen some good examples and i think the GH1 comes pretty close to the RED in those terms.
The problem is that it's only really good in 60p mode, so the comparison isn't very fair.

PaPa
09-25-2009, 09:31 AM
really? hmm, thought i had seen previous tests with it in 24.. I could be mistaken.

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 09:42 AM
One of the first things that I did when I got my GH1 was test the rolling shutter in every mode. I did the standard whip-pan test. In 60p mode, it was essentially imperceptible. In 24p and 30p, it looked pretty bad. So there.

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 11:13 AM
I just did a test in my apartment for the rolling shutter on the GH1 in 24p mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCleAbZyhW0

This was shot with the kit lens at 14mm, with Mega O.I.S. on Mode 1.

xbourque
09-25-2009, 11:31 AM
Don't forget crop factors.

Compared to full frame stills:

7D = 1.6x crop
GH1 = 2x crop

Getting fast wide lenses on the GH1 is even more challenging than on the 7D.

Michael Olsen
09-25-2009, 12:34 PM
I just did a test in my apartment for the rolling shutter on the GH1 in 24p mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCleAbZyhW0

This was shot with the kit lens at 14mm, with Mega O.I.S. on Mode 1.

o_O

Was all that nastiness in the beginning on the footage, or is that youtube?

http://www.michael-olsen.com/images/gh1.png

mikeshu
09-25-2009, 01:10 PM
Youtube HD hasn't quite matched up to that of Vimeo. That being said, it could very well be how youtube encoded it after upload. It happened to a couple of HD videos I uploaded on there before.

I have to say from my own experience that jello-vision on the GH1 in 24p is pretty bad. It pretty much has to have a super steady image or a tripod to be useable, especially with the longer lenses. I shot some long lens stuff with it with OIS and with what I thought was a very steady hand and... jello

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 01:52 PM
o_O

Was all that nastiness in the beginning on the footage, or is that youtube?

http://www.michael-olsen.com/images/gh1.png
It's an example of just how bad the mud problem is!



JK. Yeah, that was YouTube. The original looks fine.

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 01:54 PM
I have to say from my own experience that jello-vision on the GH1 in 24p is pretty bad. It pretty much has to have a super steady image or a tripod to be useable, especially with the longer lenses. I shot some long lens stuff with it with OIS and with what I thought was a very steady hand and... jello
See? That's what I've been saying. Now could we please stop making assumptions and assertions about the 7D's rolling shutter performance, especially as compared to the GH1's, until people get their cameras and do proper comparisons?

Michael Olsen
09-25-2009, 02:07 PM
JK. Yeah, that was YouTube. The original looks fine.

Good...had me wondering there.


See? That's what I've been saying. Now could we please stop making assumptions and assertions about the 7D's rolling shutter performance, especially as compared to the GH1's, until people get their cameras and do proper comparisons?

I removed my comments re: the rolling shutter in my first post. Too true...need to see a real experimental comparison with some controls

NoahK
09-25-2009, 02:24 PM
7D is undoubtedly the better camera specs wise. But the GH1 is a bit cheaper- especially lenses and more compact.

Noah

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 02:37 PM
7D is undoubtedly the better camera specs wise.
Eh, I don't know about that. It depends on what specs you deem important.

But I know that that sort of statement will have Ben_B, over in the GH1 forum, foaming at the mouth! Alas, I kid.

John Caballero
09-25-2009, 02:45 PM
I just did a test in my apartment for the rolling shutter on the GH1 in 24p mode.

Again, one more time, what part of: that is a nonsense rolling shutter test people don't understand? Really, do that to a Red One and you will see the exact same thing. If anybody is going to shoot anything resembling that, unless is an earthquake scene perhaps, does not deserve to be called even any kind of filmmaker. There are plenty of people out there with a great knowledge of cinematography that are using the 1080p mode on the GH1 with absolutely no problem. As for the artifacts it is a fact that if you yank the camera they will happen, so what a real cinematographer does? Guess? Don't yank the camera. That simple. !080p on the GH1 works beautiful, if you are a real cinematographer that knows how it is really done properly.

Kamizanate
09-25-2009, 04:00 PM
I am torn right now between these two cameras as well.

What is leaning me closer to the GH1 is the ability to use so many different lenses. Not only is this a cheaper option, but it yields a lot more options.

I would really like to see a comparison of the 7d's native 24p vs. the GH1's pulldown removed 24p. That is, a comparison of the same camera move or subject.

Barry_Green
09-25-2009, 04:09 PM
There will be plenty of comparisons when they start shipping. I have a GH1 and have ordered a 7D, I believe Kholi has a GH1 now (or maybe not?) and is getting a 7D, Philip Bloom has both, etc... there will be comparisons done.

commanderspike
09-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Here is my take on it.

The GH1 is much much lighter and much smaller, and in general so are it's lenses. The 7D is even heavier than the 5D Mark II.

The 7D has better video quality but the GH1 has better usability. It's flip out screen, it's full time live view system. No mirror box. It just feels more like a camera of the future.

The 7D has a 12 min recording limit. Not much good if you plan to do interviews or events footage, i.e. a speech at a wedding. For the rest of us, no problem.

The 7D's depth of field is slightly shallower than on the GH1 but the lens is by far the dominating factor in that respect. 7D's stills are better but the GH1 is very respectable in this regard.

The 7D has a better viewfinder but the GH1's EVF is the best on the market and can be used during video recording while the 7D's can't.

Personally I recommend the 5D Mark II over the 7D.

The 1.6x crop factor is a lot to sacrifice simply for 24p if you have classic 35MM SLR lenses or enjoy wide angle lenses. The GH1 has a 2x crop factor which is worse for your wides but brings it within acceptable parameters with regards C-Mount lenses, some of the more expensive of which are simply stunning and unique to the Micro 4/3rds form factor.

The lens adaptability on the GH1 in general is much better than on the 7D.

Buy GH1
If you value portability, ease of use, usability as a video camera, lens adaptability and a more modern feel (especially as a video camera, GH1 is your friend.

Buy 7D
If you value a camera which returns a better image in more shooting conditions, you have lots of EFS lenses, or you really put a high value on 24p.

Buy 5D Mark II
If you value the absolute best in image quality both in video and stills, you have lots of 35mm SLR lenses or want to pay less for a super-wide lens or make your 28mm lens a true wide, want the shallowest DOF and the best low light performance, think 30p is as good 24p as near as makes no difference and wanna risk the may-or-may-not turn up 24p firmware update.

Personally I'm torn between the GH1 and 5D Mark II right now. I own both but need to sell one by the end of next week.

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 06:42 PM
Again, one more time, what part of: that is a nonsense rolling shutter test people don't understand?
Philip Bloom talked about how good/bad the rolling shutter on the 7D is on his 5D vs. 7D comparison. He posted a screenshot. Then he mentioned that it was "very apparent" when he was panning between people in his sample video.

Now people are wondering about how good or bad the rolling shutter is in comparison to the GH1. And there are people who think that it will definitely be worse. There are people who don't see rolling shutter as a problem on the GH1. They look at Philip's page, his screenshot, his video, his words, and they get the impression that the 7D's rolling shutter must be worse. Or at least, it must be a real problem.

I posted the video so that people who don't have a GH1, who don't know first hand, will grasp the reality of the matter. I agree with you: Don't do whip pans. Don't do a lot of handheld stuff. And if one wants to do that sort of thing, then one should use the 720p60 mode, which also happens to be virtually mud-free. The point is that if Philip had been shooting with the GH1 in 1080p24 mode instead of the 7D, then we would see the exact same result.

So the moral of the story is: Just don't do fast motions on these DSLRs, no matter if one is using the 7D, the GH1, or even the 5D.

BTW, John, please carefully note the conditions of my test. I was holding the camera with both hands, and it's not like I was waving it around like a maniac. The lens was on the widest setting, with OIS enabled, so rolling shutter skew should've been minimized. And yet it was still "very apparent."

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 06:44 PM
As for the artifacts it is a fact that if you yank the camera they will happen, so what a real cinematographer does?
You haven't been paying attention, because I said that the artifacts were due to a YouTube encoding glitch.

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 06:45 PM
I believe Kholi has a GH1 now (or maybe not?)
Not for the last couple of months...

ydgmdlu
09-25-2009, 06:47 PM
HThe 7D has a 12 min recording limit. Not much good if you plan to do interviews
You could always stop after each answer.

Jean Dantes
09-25-2009, 09:40 PM
Again, one more time, what part of: that is a nonsense rolling shutter test people don't understand? Really, do that to a Red One and you will see the exact same thing. If anybody is going to shoot anything resembling that, unless is an earthquake scene perhaps, does not deserve to be called even any kind of filmmaker. There are plenty of people out there with a great knowledge of cinematography that are using the 1080p mode on the GH1 with absolutely no problem. As for the artifacts it is a fact that if you yank the camera they will happen, so what a real cinematographer does? Guess? Don't yank the camera. That simple. !080p on the GH1 works beautiful, if you are a real cinematographer that knows how it is really done properly.

Amen!

Jean Dantes
09-25-2009, 09:46 PM
ydgmdlu, I think your test was good and should put some anxiety to rest for those caught between a GH1 and 7D (I know it did for me! So thank you for that!). I think a lot of people think the GH1 is "rolling-shutter-free". But like John Caballero said, if you did whip pans with a RED ONE, you'd get the same result.

tony240sx
09-25-2009, 11:05 PM
For me I decided to switch to the 7d purely for the codec and process involved with gh1 footage. I loved a lot of things about the camera and the footage, when shot properly was incredible. My big problem was that the footage than had to be transcoded and pulldown removal and I had to go easy on grading ect. Now if that isn't a problem for users, and it wouldn't be for me as far as personal projects go, than go for the gh1. It has a lot up on the 7d in some ways. Flip lcd, full time live view, smaller, lighter, cheaper ect. I just feel that the hoop jumping to get the footage edit ready is too cumbersome, and may deter a lot of potential clients. With the 7d those problems go away. A lot of professional applications are currently using the 5d and I think the 7d should fit right in their as well, possibly more so because of native 24p and slow mo in 720/60p. For me it comes down to what I can get paid to shoot with and I think I will have a better shot with the 7d. It took me plenty of time researching and experimenting with a workflow for the gh1 just to try and get the footage in FCP and retain the most quality. That is just a step, that if I can pay a few bucks more for a camera, and avoid completely I'm going for it. I realize it is at the expense of some of the convenient features of the gh1 but it is a price for my needs I am willing to pay. The gh1 is an amazing camera and for the price and features, if you do not mind the post process, it can't be beat. Just weigh out your needs for a camera and either way at the end of the day your getting a great image for a bargain price compared to hd/35mm adapter setups. Just realize they are dslr's first and there will be pitfalls no matter what camera you choose.

Ian-T
09-26-2009, 06:59 AM
I'll take PQ over handling any day. I could work around the handling...(adapt, improvise) because in the end (4 me) it's all about the "potential" of the final picture (storyline included).