View Full Version : Pulling focus around
J Davis
09-09-2009, 01:23 PM
Pulling focus around on the GH1 kinda sucked because the tiny LCD will not stay 'zoomed' in while recording plus there was no HDMI out. The good thing about that cam is the LCD is articulated so my neck didn't get strained.
The 7D on the other hand has HDMI but I've read posts that it is only 480p
480p is 853x480 = 409440 pixels
Specs on dpreview.com list the 7D LCD monitor as having 460,000
can someone tell me what is the point of using the HDMI out ?
7D EVF on the other hand is listed as having 1,440,000 'dots' which I assume to mean pixels (dpreview)
The point is the HDMI at 480p is the best quality 'out' you're going to get out of the camera. Don't want to strain your neck? - get an external marshall with false color and peaking to help with neck strain and focusing.
Rick Rock
09-09-2009, 01:33 PM
7D has no EVF. It's a standard DSLR viewfinder AKA a mirrored view of what the lens is seeing.
And according to the Canon 7D manual, page 255: LCD monitor size is 3" with approximately 910,000 dots (VGA).
The point of using the HDMI out, even if it's only 480p, is that you get to use a monitor much bigger than 3" and you can put it anywhere you want.
.
J Davis
09-09-2009, 01:37 PM
I sensed a little defensive tone going on. Hey I've got a 7D on pre-order too !
Just disappointed thats all.
Rick Rock
09-09-2009, 01:44 PM
Yeah, no tone intended, but it is disappointing the HDMI output is not full res. Better than nothing, though.
Sttratos
09-09-2009, 04:49 PM
I see this being a major problem. When reviewing footage, if it's just slightly out of focus it will look in focus in a 480p monitor. Then you think you got the take and once you get back and watch it in all it's 1080p glory you find out your focus was soft. But then it's too late.
xbourque
09-09-2009, 04:52 PM
The camera plays back clips in Full HD through HDMI. It's only when recording that it drops the 480p, presumably because the CPU lacks enough power to drive the monitor and record at the same time. So you can check your clips for focus after the fact.
You can also use the live view zoom feature (x5 and x10) to check focus marks before takes.
Philip Bloom swears by the Zacuto Z-Finder to assess focus while shooting.
http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/08/21/review-of-new-zacuto-z-finder-v2/
Eddy Robinson
09-09-2009, 05:03 PM
WFT-5a - monitor via wifi or ethernet. (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=182734)
Sttratos
09-09-2009, 05:08 PM
The camera plays back clips in Full HD through HDMI. It's only when recording that it drops the 480p, presumably because the CPU lacks enough power to drive the monitor and record at the same time. So you can check your clips for focus after the fact.
You can also use the live view zoom feature (x5 and x10) to check focus marks before takes.
Philip Bloom swears by the Zacuto Z-Finder to assess focus while shooting.
http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/08/21/review-of-new-zacuto-z-finder-v2/
Well, that's better already.
But another bummer is the LCD is disabled when the video out is used. So basically ither the director has no monitor during the take and he has to watch every take in playback to see if he got the take he needs, which doubles the time, or the camera operator has to operate from the optical viewfinder, which for most shots like moving ones is impossible or very difficult.
ydgmdlu
09-09-2009, 06:41 PM
the camera operator has to operate from the optical viewfinder, which for most shots like moving ones is impossible or very difficult.
Bad news: The optical viewfinder doesn't work when live view (and thus video mode) is enabled.
I don't see why the director couldn't also just monitor from an external monitor and check the footage for focus after each take.
Sttratos
09-09-2009, 06:46 PM
Bad news: The optical viewfinder doesn't work when live view (and thus video mode) is enabled.
I don't see why the director couldn't also just monitor from an external monitor and check the footage for focus after each take.
if the director monitors from an external monitor, what does the camera operator sees then? If you send a video signal out the on board LCD is disabled right?
J Davis
09-09-2009, 06:48 PM
The problem is that no matter how big the external monitor is, you are still only looking at 480p. There is a error when trying to pull focus around on a moving actor when you are capturing 1080p and monitoring on 480p.
The LCD gives better res than the HDMI out so even tho its smaller, if you are prepared to squint, strain your neck (and get mad at canon) then you have a better chance.
vcfilms
09-09-2009, 10:22 PM
Come on Canon just figure out a way to give us full res HDMI out for monitoring, or at least 720p, I'm sure you can do it if you put your best tech's on it, lol. 480p on a 9" external monitor, what a shame!
vcfilms
09-09-2009, 10:26 PM
One more thing to consider as well, it's going to be difficult too to shoot on a tripod from a lot of angles without an external monitor without killing your neck or looking at it from odd angles. Maybe you get used to it, but coming from the full sized camera world it may take a lot of getting used to.
xbourque
09-09-2009, 11:30 PM
We don't need more pixels. We need decent peaking/edge detection.
ryansheffer
09-10-2009, 01:56 AM
The 5d has the best onboard LCD I've ever used and apparently the 7ds is better. I it much easier to pull focus on my 5d vs my gh1. The gh1 onboard is wayyyyyyyy worse than the 5ds.
Illya Friedman
09-10-2009, 02:16 AM
The 5d has the best onboard LCD I've ever used and apparently the 7ds is better. I it much easier to pull focus on my 5d vs my gh1. The gh1 onboard is wayyyyyyyy worse than the 5ds.
Nonsense. Having used both extensively, focus pulling is much easier on the GH1.
The GH1 has more depth of field (Cinema) at the equivalent HAOV of the 5D. The GH1 has two live monitoring options- the LCD and unlike any mirrored SLR, the viewfinder. The GH1 also still has the best focus assist of any DSLR I've ever used.
It is currently possible to pull focus as a professional would with the GH1- on lenses that were designed for the task which actually have real and accurate focus marks on the barrel.
The 5D and 7D have their pluses, but to declare that the non-orientable LCD of the 5D is vastly superior to the GH1 is at best opinion, and at worst a distortion of the truth.
On REJOUER there was a shot at 180mm at T2 with an actor running towards camera at full speed, and the 1st AC was able to pull focus tack sharp from begining to end. Speaking as a focus puller for a moment, the same shot with the same end to end sharpness is currently impossible on a 5D.
Sttratos
09-10-2009, 03:41 AM
On REJOUER there was a shot at 180mm at T2 with an actor running towards camera at full speed, and the 1st AC was able to pull focus tack sharp from begining to end. Speaking as a focus puller for a moment, the same shot with the same end to end sharpness is currently impossible on a 5D.
Why?
Sttratos
09-10-2009, 03:48 AM
I just wonder why Zacuto or somebody else can't come up with a viewfinder attachment that swivels up and down and rotates like a shoulder camera viewfinder. That would already help. This is basically what the EX3 viewfinder is, a LCD with an attachment. Normal optical viewfinders on still cameras have had 90 degrees viewfinder attachments for decades now. Not exactly the same but shows it's needed.
Just something like this, but that would fold out to become straight for shoulder shooting and would attached over the LCD: http://cgi.ebay.com/Angle-Viewfinder-for-Canon-EOS-1000D-500D-50D-40D-5D-1D_W0QQitemZ350241473882QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item518c04c55a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Rhys Day
09-10-2009, 05:29 AM
I just wonder why Zacuto or somebody else can't come up with a viewfinder attachment that swivels up and down and rotates like a shoulder camera viewfinder. That would already help. This is basically what the EX3 viewfinder is, a LCD with an attachment. Normal optical viewfinders on still cameras have had 90 degrees viewfinder attachments for decades now. Not exactly the same but shows it's needed.
Just something like this, but that would fold out to become straight for shoulder shooting and would attached over the LCD: http://cgi.ebay.com/Angle-Viewfinder-for-Canon-EOS-1000D-500D-50D-40D-5D-1D_W0QQitemZ350241473882QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item518c04c55a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
I think Cinevate are developing something of this nature.
J Davis
09-10-2009, 05:56 AM
On REJOUER there was a shot at 180mm at T2 with an actor running towards camera at full speed, and the 1st AC was able to pull focus tack sharp from begining to end.
Thats some pretty hot sh*t right there – kudos.
For me I think its very likely the 7D will be a flipper not a keeper but won't decide till I have it.
Don't want to be spending on accessories that are not needed later. Articulated screens, better HDMI are bound to be on later models.
Just gotta use the LCD 'zoom' in before my take and pick a smaller aperture for more manageable dof.
Kholi
09-10-2009, 10:07 AM
Contact Kit Hannah and get ready to purchase his 720 5.6" LCD. It'll be pretty future proof if all specs and quality hold up, this is regardless if output is 480p now. Sooner or later, it'll be 720. Kit's price-to-performance Ratio is very promising.
I'll probably get one, but I've gotten used to using the SD out to a 2.5" Ikan LCD. In the end, I think I would rather have a 3 or 4" SD LCD but I can pull just fine on a 2.5" + MKii combination.
I only suspect it to be that much easier going back to what I'm accustomed to seeing (APS-C). The primary idea is to just break out of the LCD on the back side of the camera and get something on an arm that you can put in front of your face no matter where your head is positioned.
Why?
Because the 5D is a full frame sensor with less depth of field making it harder to get spot on focus. Not impossible but more difficult. The Gh1 and 7D have smaller cine like sensors.
Marshall makes the only worthy monitor option with a 7" LCD with peaking and false color. You'd have no problem getting focus with that monitor but its 7". I'm hoping someone comes out with a small monitor with peaking with a slim battery.
And lets hope cinevate gets their thing out soon.
Also Sept 29 Canon is unveiling something big. This might have the features we want but it will cost if its the 1D MKIV..
http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/september29.jpg
Jester2138
09-10-2009, 10:35 AM
The 5D is perfectly capable of having an equivalent DOF to the GH1. You just use f/5.6 instead of f/2.8 or something (I'm not sure of the specifics.)
Luis Caffesse
09-10-2009, 10:54 AM
Also Sept 29 Canon is unveiling something big. This might have the features we want but it will cost if its the 1D MKIV..
http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/september29.jpg
I would have my doubts that their announcement will be anything video related - it would see unwise to announce the 7D, fill up preorders for a release at the beginning of October - only to announce on Sept 29th that a model with better video capabilities is coming out.
Then again, I don't run Canon - so who knows.
Not if the Canon product is a Red competitor that costs 3X as much as the 7D. It could be the best camera ever created, but I still don't have that kind of dough and would keep my 7D order.
I was thinking this too but the alleged MKIV might cost 2x to 3x more than the 7D and I'm getting the feeling that pro photojournalists now expect the video option.
zacuto
09-13-2009, 09:15 AM
Some have asked why we cannot make a right angle for the Z-Finder for low angle shots. The problem with that it would require a prism which I'm afraid would be more than the cost of the Z-Finder. Plus, I think soon all of cameras will have either flippable screens or at least a screen that will flip up perpendicular to the camera body then when the Z-Finder is attched you will be able to do those low shots. As it stand now, it's much like when I used to use 16mm film cameras in the early 1980's. I remember one shot in which I had the crew dig a hole in the ground which the DP went into to get his eye in the viewfinder ;-0
Steve
Some have asked why we cannot make a right angle for the Z-Finder for low angle shots. The problem with that it would require a prism which I'm afraid would be more than the cost of the Z-Finder. Plus, I think soon all of cameras will have either flippable screens or at least a screen that will flip up perpendicular to the camera body then when the Z-Finder is attched you will be able to do those low shots. As it stand now, it's much like when I used to use 16mm film cameras in the early 1980's. I remember one shot in which I had the crew dig a hole in the ground which the DP went into to get his eye in the viewfinder ;-0
Steve
Steve,
I'm not an optics engineer but maybe this is a possibility. Have you looked into making a add on mount attachment for the cameras 3" lcd that could incorporate the Canon Right angle Finder C. It was designed to look through the smaller eyepiece but maybe one optic placed in this add on mount might be able to minimize or direct the lcd image area so that the Canon Angle finder can let the image come through just like if it were on the eyepiece for which it was originally intended.
Seems you have the mounting thing down because this add on mount would use the same thing as the z finder. The cost of this add on mount wouldn't seem to be prohibitive then.
If this is something doable I humbly expect a limited free Zacuto shopping pass for the sale life of this mount :)
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
09-13-2009, 11:13 AM
... I remember one shot in which I had the crew dig a hole in the ground which the DP went into to get his eye in the viewfinder ;-0
Steve
Hi Steve: I wonder if this now time-honored technique was used before Orson Welles did it in Citizen Kane, or if it was original to him?
http://www.directorsguild.org/news/dgaq_306/images/features-0306/rko-9t.jpg