Differences between Canon 5D + 7D - IQ and look [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Uwe Lansing

09-08-2009, 05:13 AM

After watching Philip Bloom´s new clip "Dublin´s People" i was excited about the IQ, sharpness, hardly visible aliasing... etc. But after watching 2 or 3 times i wondered if there is something "weird" with the colors. It seems that everything/every face has a bluish tint!? Is it only the different light situation in Sofia and Dublin? Here are some screenshots:

5d
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/378/5dface1.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/5dface1.jpg/)
7d
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3848/7fface1.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/7fface1.jpg/)
5d
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5500/5d2faces.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/5d2faces.jpg/)
7d
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7613/7d2faces.jpg (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/7d2faces.jpg/)
5d
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/7452/5dface3.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/i/5dface3.jpg/)
7d
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3426/7dface3.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/i/7dface3.jpg/)
5d
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9429/5dface4.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/i/5dface4.jpg/)
7d
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2354/7dface4.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/7dface4.jpg/)

And what about sharpness, lowlight abilities + noise...? I for one don´t see any big difference in that regard - at first glance, it looks pretty much the same. Perhaps slightly more noise? I know its a bit early but nevertheless, any thoughts?...

Ian-T

09-08-2009, 06:19 AM

I can’t tell the noise difference between these two videos but I can believe that the 7D would be slightly noisier than the 5D. I also agree about the slightly bluish tint but I always thought the 5Dll produces a too red/orange(ish) type of image anyways. In post I would have pushed the 5Dll’s image more towards blue anyways just to tone down the red/orange color. Maybe it just boils down to how you white balance each shot. As far as sharpness it might still be too early to tell but I see no difference here between these two videos (or at least none that sticks out to me).

squig

09-08-2009, 06:34 AM

I've found the MKII to be slightly lacking in the blue channel but it's easily corrected with a bit of grading provided you shoot with the primo picture settings.

Michael Olsen

09-08-2009, 06:52 AM

squig

09-08-2009, 07:02 AM

could be that the bloomin pom doesn't know how to set his white balance :shocked:

ethan cooper

09-08-2009, 07:08 AM

I don't doubt that the 7D will be noisier than the 5D but from what I've seen thus far it doesn't appear to be night and day.

Barry_Green

09-08-2009, 07:17 AM

It is possible that it was a white balance issue, but it's more likely that this was completely UNGRADED footage. Philip normally applies some Magic Bullet to his footage, but for "Dublin" it's straight raw out of the camera, which is out of the norm for him.

Michael Olsen

09-08-2009, 07:19 AM

squig

09-08-2009, 07:21 AM

I don't think I've ever got my WB spot on and when I get it just about right 100k either way is too much. hmm 50k increment magic lantern suggestion

Uwe Lansing

09-08-2009, 10:20 AM

It is possible that it was a white balance issue...

May be yes, may be no. Perhaps Philip can enlighten us? We should keep an eye on it...

Uwe Lansing

09-09-2009, 03:51 AM

Ok, obviously he did some grading although he wrote it was ungraded:
http://96.30.23.131/showpost.php?p=1739730&postcount=82

A bit confusing but to get rid of yellow he needed to lift the blue. Maybe that´s the main reason for the blue tint. The faces look a bit "seasick"... ;-). Besides that he played around with the settings...

Ian-T

09-09-2009, 06:12 AM

I believe Phil recently stated that the original upload was not graded (that’s the one I downloaded). But he went back (after the fact) and graded the footage because of the oversaturation of reds etc. (don’t quote me on all of that though).

Everts

09-09-2009, 07:26 AM

I believe that's called color correction not color grading .

Nik Manning

09-09-2009, 07:32 AM

Ok so it's likely he pulled down the reds in post. No big deal from these images it seems the cameras really match

Ian-T

09-09-2009, 07:56 AM

I believe that's called color correction not color grading .Um...ok...how about "tweak?" :)
@Nik: I agree.

Tim Joy

09-09-2009, 08:07 AM

But these were shot with available light on the street! Street lights always look darn awful.

ryansheffer

09-09-2009, 08:33 AM

Picture style editor. It's incredible. The calibration I have been using (one I made) is lightyears beyond what comes with the camera. I'm fairly certain Philip is using what came with the camera.

Uwe Lansing

09-10-2009, 03:05 AM

Here on image resource you can compare various cameras:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

And it seems pretty obvious that the 7D has a more "coolish look" than the 5D:

5d
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8819/5dimageresource.jpg (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/5dimageresource.jpg/)

7d
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3516/7dimageresource.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/i/7dimageresource.jpg/)

But it holds up quite well in terms of high iso/noise

5d - 3200 iso
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4373/5d3200.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/5d3200.jpg/)

7d - 3200 iso
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1866/7d3200.jpg (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/7d3200.jpg/)

SPZ

09-10-2009, 03:30 AM

Creepy images!

mhood

09-10-2009, 05:34 AM

...almost 3D looking...

Michael Olsen

09-10-2009, 05:48 AM

Creepy images!

Kill it with fire!

But seriously...it does look a little cooler. Should this help with achieving a very flat look in camera, or will it hinder? (Did people consider the 5d too warm/red?)

Ian-T

09-10-2009, 06:22 AM

(Did people consider the 5d too warm/red?)I've always thought this myself.

Rakesh Jacob

09-10-2009, 06:28 AM

I always thought it looked peachy... not in the good way but literaly :)
Other than that though... WOW, especially considering the cost and the options

Uwe Lansing

09-10-2009, 08:55 AM

I know, there is no accounting for taste. I suppose you´ll have a whole range of settings inside the camera to manipulate the look + colors. This is an example with saturation +2:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2546/7d2saturationsmall.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/7d2saturationsmall.jpg/)

Rakesh Jacob

09-10-2009, 09:01 AM

Skin tone is a little plasticy :)

Creepy images!
seriously some one is dressing that thing up doing it's make up and fixing it's hair, posing it... I don't like to judge but it's creeping me out on a primal level, I'm sure it's innocent... probably...

Ian-T

09-10-2009, 09:05 AM

Me personally, I like to over saturate the image while shooting and then having the option to dial it down in post. Since we are starting to see much higher data rates and better ways of compression in these codecs it’s not like the old days where this method would produce banding issues etc.

f64manray

09-10-2009, 09:07 AM

Skin tone is a little plasticy :)

seriously some one is dressing that thing up doing it's make up and fixing it's hair, posing it... I don't like to judge but it's creeping me out on a primal level, I'm sure it's innocent... probably...

Yes, also tends to make people look lifeless. These cameras suck.

Uwe Lansing

09-10-2009, 09:07 AM

Skin tone is a little plasticy :)

Haha..., don´t get me wrong - this is not what i like. Only to show what is possible if "someone" want it...

Everts

09-10-2009, 09:59 AM

Um...ok...how about "tweak?" :)
@Nik: I agree.

yeah i can live with that :beer:
The colors from Dublin's people are just great and so are the ones from sophia's people. There's a bit more resolution with the 5d and also a more tan perhaps .

I still think the 5d produces better videoimages but that could be just personal taste. Afterall it's all about the glass .

Kholi

09-10-2009, 10:02 AM

I want to wait until I have a camera in my hands to judge, but it does look as though the MKii produces a better image. I didn't think there would be that much of a difference because of the compression, but there might just be enough to call it so.

Again, we'll see. But at least it's got everything else.

Rakesh Jacob

09-10-2009, 10:16 AM

Yes, also tends to make people look lifeless. These cameras suck.
LOL Perfect!

I want to wait until I have a camera in my hands to judge, but it does look as though the MKii produces a better image. I didn't think there would be that much of a difference because of the compression, but there might just be enough to call it so.

Again, we'll see. But at least it's got everything else.
I agree, the 5D2 seems better in overall IQ and just general textural quality, it just produces a richer looking image to me. I know it's early but there's been enough to establish that much I think. But as a usable camera, the 7D is pretty sweet! And as soon as Panny gets over their codec hump, they've got so much going for their line in terms of features and usability as well, COLOR ME EXCITED :grin:

squig

09-10-2009, 10:21 AM

I've found the MKII to be slightly lacking in the blue channel and I've been meaning to create a custom profile and push the blue, so the 7D could be just right. The major problem I have with the MKII is dropped frames on slow pans, if this has been fixed my MKII is getting replaced. I wouldn't worry too much about the colors, photographers wouldn't touch it if the colors were off.

Uwe Lansing

09-10-2009, 11:20 AM

...

I agree, the 5D2 seems better in overall IQ and just general textural quality, it just produces a richer looking image to me...

What makes you think so? I for one am not sure. So far i haven´t seen any aliasing, skew, crushing blacks... as with the 5DII. Lowlight ability + amount of noise (no noise) seems pretty much the same to me...

Ian-T

09-10-2009, 01:59 PM

From the footage I've seen so far I think the images between the two cams look similar. I don't see the aliasing in the 7D however. But the low light in the 5D might still end up being a tad better than the 7D.

Also, it's like I said before, if the 5Dll had 24p it's image wouldn't be as crisp as it currently is. It's like that with any camera. 24p vs 30p vs 60p/60i...they will all look different. Starting with 24p the image will (and should) get more crisp the more you go up the ladder. So if we want to compare the image of the 7D with the 5Dll we should probably compare both of their 30p footage with one another. IMO

Uwe Lansing

09-11-2009, 03:46 AM

... It's like that with any camera. 24p vs 30p vs 60p/60i...they will all look different. Starting with 24p the image will (and should) get more crisp the more you go up the ladder. So if we want to compare the image of the 7D with the 5Dll we should probably compare both of their 30p footage with one another. IMO

Right you are. I´d say that perhaps the 7d might be the better camera in many ways. And the rest will be nearly on par with the 5d. But, yes, its still too early - the jury is still out. We have to wait for more telling test footage...

Kholi

09-11-2009, 05:42 PM

After downloading Phillips uncompressed file I feel better. I really haven't commented on the image, especially positively, because frankly I was just as underwhelmed as a few other people.

Phillip's raw sample doesn't put me TOTALLY at ease, but it's a lot closer to MKii footage than I initially projected. Not exacts, and certainly not as fine to my eyes but I believe close enough.

What does still bother me is the chroma noise I'm seeing. I hope that it's a product of Phillip using off ISO's like 400 or 800. I'm pretty sure the 160 incremental carries over to the 7D, so I suspect that using 160, 320, 640 will be the areas to sit in.

On the 720 image... the aliasing is unfriendly. It'll be a "used sparingly" deal, anything that doesn't have straight lines or curves (vehicles especially). In the end, it may be better to shoot 1080/24 at a higher shutter speed and just half-speed it on the timeline or Twixtor. Not the same results, but you do what you can.

squig

09-12-2009, 01:20 AM

I'm not sure it does the in between ISO's maybe Phil can fill us in?

DrDave

09-12-2009, 01:25 AM

I can’t tell the noise difference between these two videos but I can believe that the 7D would be slightly noisier than the 5D. I also agree about the slightly bluish tint but I always thought the 5Dll produces a too red/orange(ish) type of image anyways. In post I would have pushed the 5Dll’s image more towards blue anyways just to tone down the red/orange color.

I've had orange cast with the MKII (in dim light) as well.

squig

09-12-2009, 03:11 AM

I've had orange cast with the MKII (in dim light) as well.

Shooting with standard picture control setting?

dadoboy

09-12-2009, 03:31 AM

Don't you think that a lot of these coloration issues are due to the fact that much of this stuff that people are shooting with these cameras are not "lit"?
For example, you will get an orange cast to your footage if your in dim house (tungsten) lighting or sodium vapor street light or...
A lot of the blue color fringing may be due to uknown street sources, a lot of mixed ambient lighting situations will give you all kinds of color spikes.
Under controlled HMI/Kino flo/tungsten lighting I bet a lot of these coloration problems will be under uh... control.

Ian-T

09-12-2009, 07:15 AM

I think you're right dadoboy. But that's where properly white balancing the scene comes in I would think (especially as the light/or lack of it changes). I think most of those shots were pretty much static (or under the same ligting).

mcgeedigital

09-12-2009, 09:12 AM

I don't think most people are white balancing at all or even know how to.

Hell, on the 5dMkii you can even dial in what specific degree of Kelvin you want!

Green Hornet

09-12-2009, 09:16 AM

I don't think most people are white balancing at all or even know how to.

Hell, on the 5dMkii you can even dial in what specific degree of Kelvin you want!

I hope it can white balance like my Canon point and shoot.
You program a button for white balance, and then just point at a neutral white or grey item, and press the button, a flash emits of known intensity, and it auto white balances from the result. It literally takes seconds.

Tim Le

09-12-2009, 09:33 AM

I'm not sure it does the in between ISO's maybe Phil can fill us in?

According to the 7D manual, the ISO speed increment can be either 1 full stop or 1/3 stop by changing Custom Function C.Fn I-2.

The white balance can be set manually by reading a white object or dialing in the color temperature within a range of 2500K to 10000K in 100K increments.

Uwe Lansing

09-12-2009, 10:05 AM

This review deals mostly with the photo abilities but it sounds good:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.naturfokus.info/EN/&rurl=translate.google.com

As a summary I would say that the new AF system in the 7D is very impressing, and I will rate it as the best AF system I have tried (including 1D/1DS Mark III)
Therefore, I have been very excited about the image quality of the new 7D camera, especially considering that it has APS-C image sensor (1.6 crop factor)..............
what I've seen so far, it can withstand comparisons with image files from both the 5D Mark II and 1DS Mark III, especially with ISO settings below ISO 800 I photographed most of my test pictures with ISO values at ISO 500, but with the water droplets, I used ISO 1600. Even at ISO 1600, I think there are surprisingly little noise, even without any noise reduction.

Video Feature

I'll be back soon with some beta-clips from the 7D-video, so stay tuned....

Ian-T

09-12-2009, 10:15 AM

This review deals mostly with the photo abilities but it sounds good:
Man-man...did you see the detail in that crop of the goose? If this thing had uncompressed HDMI out it would have been (more) dangerous.

xbourque

09-12-2009, 01:05 PM

Why is the link using Google Translate? The page is in English!

http://www.naturfokus.info/EN/

Uwe Lansing

09-13-2009, 03:20 AM

@ xbourque

You´re right, but i only copied that link from another forum. Its the same text and actually it isn´t worth to talk about ;-)

Man-man...did you see the detail in that crop of the goose? If this thing had uncompressed HDMI out it would have been (more) dangerous.

Yes, its quite a lot of information and perhaps that could be a bit of a problem...

Uwe Lansing

09-14-2009, 04:45 AM

A first 720p slomo test clip: http://www.vimeo.com/6568876

Sure, a full report will follow on his site:
http://www.naturfokus.info/EN/

Michael Olsen

09-14-2009, 06:21 AM

A first 720p slomo test clip: http://www.vimeo.com/6568876

Sure, a full report will follow on his site:
http://www.naturfokus.info/EN/

720p slowmo test...but the quicktime file for download is 1080p?

Ian-T

09-14-2009, 06:41 AM

That really does not look like it was filmed in 60p. It looked like 24p slowed down.

Uwe Lansing

09-14-2009, 06:54 AM

720p slowmo test...but the quicktime file for download is 1080p?

Oops..., you´re right. I didn´t notice it. Its actually 1920x1080p29.97. What the hell is this supposed to be? Certainly, he´ll explain it on his blog...

Uwe Lansing

09-15-2009, 05:42 AM

... Certainly, he´ll explain it on his blog...

He said that he´ll upload the original file:

The video is captured in 50P (1280 x 720 pixels), but I set the export to 1080p as usual in Compress (Final Cut). I will replace it with a 720P clip tomorow… Ole Jørgen
This might also be interesting: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/396915-canon-7d-vs-5d-any-questions.html. Perhaps he will give us a bit more information in the next couple of days...