GF1 official!

[Ben_B]

http://gizmodo.com/5350565/panasonic-lumix-gf1-camera-improves-on-the-olympus-e+p1-but-not-by-much

[cjwolff]

That pop up flash would snap off of my camera the first time I looked at it wrong.

[Ben_B]

That 20mm f/1.7 is $200 btw all you saliviating GH1 owners like me.


You know whats weird is that this thing body only is actually $100 more than GH1 body only?

[Ben_B]

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/PanasonicGF1/
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09090203panasonic20mm.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09090204panasonicdmcgf1.asp

[chrismagicc]

oooooooh, only 200 for the 20mm f1.7! me likey a lot.

but seriously, how do you think it would compare to other glass? canon fd, nikon etc...

[Ben_B]

My bad I think it's $400.

[Ben_B]

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Aspherical-Pancake-Interchangeable-Cameras/dp/B002IKLJVE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1251871867&sr=8-1

[yslee]

Awww snap! $400 for what essentially is a 50/1.8?!

[richtrav]

So I'm confused, does the movie mode basically allow for manual shooting? Some sites suggest yes and others no. I wish there were a manual online for it, I'd like to know what parameters are adjustable in movie mode and how much control you can have

[yslee]

No it doesn't. The movie icon on the GF1 dial has "P" next to it, unlike the "M" next to the GH1.

[Ben_B]

That's a fail. But might signal continued support for the GH1/GH1 form-factor/platform.

[Ben_B]

Awww snap! $400 for what essentially is a 50/1.8?!

You're paying for a tiny little lens that slims down the form factor and has auto focus, etc. It crops to 40mm yes but is still one of the cheapest, fastest, wide lenses available for the GH1, and is M4/3 which is nice.

Also it is 20mm, not 40mm, even though it crops, which means it will be useful for deeper depth of field type shots when you stop down, or at least deeper DOF than an actual 50mm (cropped to 100mm.)

It looks like it's taken some really nice photos actually, with pretty shallow, that I would have to get pretty far back and stop down a bit to get with my 50mm Nikon f/1.4....and the Nikon is nowhere near this sharp at those apertures.

From DPreview:
http://a.img-dpreview.com/gallery/panasonicgf1_previewsamples19573758/p1010103.jpg

[Stephen Mick]

I already pre-ordered my 20mm f1.7 lens. Should be a nice addition to the GH1 kit lens.

--SM

[commanderspike]

Maybe in the future I can see myself having the GF1 for snapshots and the GH2 (or whatever the successor's gonna be called) for video.

Sometimes a small form factor ain't what you want for shooting video, but that 20mm pancake lens sure is nice... probably the widest lens at that speed available for the GH1. Even Sigma 20mm F1.8 is bulky and not as fast.

[Ben_B]

Yeah I have a Sigma 24mm f/1.8 that I like a lot cause it's a macro but also works well as a wider lens (if you're really good at keeping focus which for the most part I think I am) but yes it is somewhat bulky and hard to deal with.

I'm looking forward to this lens but I am in no rush to buy it. I will wait till it's actually shipping. Hopefully there's no shortages.

[Tameside]

Actually, that new 45mm f2.8 will be just as nice too.

The system is shaping up nicely. The pancake you'll be able to carry in your pocket along with the 45mm which has is and silent af like the 14-140.

[Ben_B]

Is that a prosumer video camera in your "jacket pocket" (marketing speak for "not quite small enough to fit in anyone's actual pockets on any clothing items") or are you just happy to see me? 20mm pancake? I guess you're not that happy to see me.

Gh1 that is. GF1 is pocket sized easily from what I can tell.

[kainekainekaine]

Anyone know if it has AE-lock option in video? I know the EP-1 does not. If we could lock it at a specific shutter displayed on the LCD then it could still be a very cool little video camera.

[Ben_B]

No idea. Guess we'll be waiting for the manual?

[Tameside]

it has the ae/af lock button just like the gh1. Hit ae lock and you are all set.

[richtrav]

No it doesn't. The movie icon on the GF1 dial has "P" next to it, unlike the "M" next to the GH1.

This is what has me confused. It's straight from the press release:

"The GF1 also provides a colour mode, film mode and carries over 11 different scene modes from photo scene modes in movie recording. Motion picture Program mode that lets you change the aperture and the shutter speed for more creative HD movie recording. You can try professional-like movie recording with these variety of options like you do with photo recording".

There is also a mention on imaging-resource (I think, I've read so much the past 2 daze I can't remember what I saw where) that said the aperture was adjustable while recording. But dpreview says no manual nuttin

[AdrianF]

The 20mm looks like it's going to be a great addition, would like to know how it handles as far as MF goes, but it looks promising. There are some more samples with this and the GF1 over at fourthirds-user, including a few video clips:
http://fourthirds-user.com/2009/09/sample_images_and_video_from_the_new_panasonic_dmc gf1.php

[my0t1]

But didn't they say the 20mm doesn't have IS built in? It'd be nice if it also have IS.

[ajamils]

The 20mm looks like it's going to be a great addition, would like to know how it handles as far as MF goes, but it looks promising. There are some more samples with this and the GF1 over at fourthirds-user, including a few video clips:
http://fourthirds-user.com/2009/09/sample_images_and_video_from_the_new_panasonic_dmc gf1.php

some of the pics look really amazing.

[yslee]

You're paying for a tiny little lens that slims down the form factor and has auto focus, etc. It crops to 40mm yes but is still one of the cheapest, fastest, wide lenses available for the GH1, and is M4/3 which is nice.

Also it is 20mm, not 40mm, even though it crops, which means it will be useful for deeper depth of field type shots when you stop down, or at least deeper DOF than an actual 50mm (cropped to 100mm.)

It looks like it's taken some really nice photos actually, with pretty shallow, that I would have to get pretty far back and stop down a bit to get with my 50mm Nikon f/1.4....and the Nikon is nowhere near this sharp at those apertures.


I'm comparing format to format. The 20 is no way considered wide.

Consider this: In 35mm film photography cameras, the normal is about 43mm. For Micro 4/3s, it's about 22mm. So I'm essentially comparing normal lenses. Lenses around the normal focal length are easier to design; that's why they're cheap. US$400 for this? Sure, if it's metal-barreled, and has a proper focus ring, with distance and DOF indicators.

[Ben_B]

Show me a wider lens at or near that speed for that price or cheaper and I'll buy it.

[haojan]

I was initially looking at the Summilux 25mm f/1.4.
How would you compare these two lenses besides the summilux costing 2x as much.

[yslee]

Are we resorting to the "it's the only game in town so it's affordable by default" argument?

The 25/1.4 is half a stop faster, and has the Leica name to jack up the price a bit.

[Ben_B]

I was saying that I was interested in this lens because it was one of the widest available in that price range and at that speed. It's true that it's not a wide angle in the normal sense, and those of us with GH1s are already having to get used to shooting further back, etc, thanks to the 2x crop factor. The reason I am saying it is a good lens to get is that although it might have normal lens FOV it does not have the DOF you'd expect from a normal lens with that sort of aperture, with a 20mm lens it's going to be deeper, although, as you can see from the above photo, still somewhat shallow with a more open aperture, which also means it can serve as more of a normal lens, as you say, with the advantage being that we can get closer in than with using a traditional 40 to 50mm lens on the GH1, which means a less shakey handheld image, etc.

It is not the only game in town. I already have a Sigma 24mm f/1.8 which was actually a little cheaper and I'm still interested in this lens because of the small size, the fact that it gives a 40mm full-frame FOV instead of 48mm, and will likely be slightly deeper DOF in low light conditions (additionally my 24mm is also a macro which makes it somewhat finicky to use in certain situations.)

What would a good, affordable, fast, wide angle for the GH1 be? The Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 is slower than this lens, and costs $600, all for a lens which, on the GH1, has no aperture control.

Sigma makes a few lenses that are wider than this, but at f/2.8 and higher, and for several hundred dollars more (and that's for used.) Additionally Sigma is not exactly well known for build quality, and their lenses are usually pretty large. I love my Sigma 24mm...but the thing has a 77m filter thread and is very large and bulky, comically so for a non-telephoto lens, on the GH1.

This lens has a great form factor, is one of the widest/fastest available in it's price range for the GH1, will auto-focus, etc.

There is more to a lens than FOV. Just because a lens is affected by a 2x crop factor does not mean that it does not still have the properties of that kind of lens. This 20mm lens at f/1.7 looks sharper than say, a Nikon portrait lens, 50mm, at f/1.8, whether it's on a full-frame camera or not, despite the fact that the 20mm gets a normal lens' FOV on the GH1.

I've been shooting around with a borrowed Nikon 135mm f/2.8 and it looks great, despite the fact that it's getting cropped to 270mm. I love the shallow DOF look that it gives me, and I actually like it better than my 50mm f/1.4. Does that mean that I'll need to get further back from my subject, have a shakier shot, and be able to use it in less situations? Yes. But do I like it as a lens despite the limited FOV? Yes.

So again, I'll ask, regardless of what you interpret this lens' function and capabilities to be, show me a lens you would consider "better" that has the same FOV or wider, and is as fast, slightly slower, or faster, and that is in the same price range. I will go buy that lens instead. I will give you the small size and autofocus as freebies you don't have to address. I am in the market for a wider lens for my GH1 and I don't want to spend $600-1000 on a used lens or a lens that you can't set the aperture on. (I don't have anything against used lenses but we really should be comparing new to new.) Go ahead. Wow me.

[yslee]

I'm not sure why you're so defensive over this lens. Did I strike a raw nerve somewhere?

As someone who used to shoot with a 24/50/100 setup, believe me, I like my small primes.

I just don't like the idea of paying US$400 for what is the m4/3's normal lens. US$300 maybe.

Is there a lens that's like that? Of course not. But does it mean the US$400 is justified? Maybe. But I'm feeling like Panasonic is doing a bit of gouging here. Will I buy it? Maybe. I want my small fast primes too.

To give another example of what I'm railing against: Nikon several years back released, along with the FM3a, a 45/2.8 pancake with the CPU-chip to allow AF cameras to meter with it. It was highly lauded, but at US$400-500 (even more expensive than the 20/1.7) I questioned the sanity of those who bought it. It wasn't even groundbreaking lens design: Just a slightly updated Tessar.

$500 for an updated Tessar?

Needless to say, I somehow managed riled up people in the same way. Go on, they said. Show us a lens that's like this. All metal, pancake, and meters with AF bodies.

Of course there was no comparison. Nikon's last pancake, the 45/2.8 GN was an AIs affair only, and couldn't matrix meter with any modern AF camera in Nikon's lineup then (the F4 being discontinued).

Still. $500 for THAT lens?

A few more things:

The Sigma f/1.8 wide angles are not macro lenses. It's a misnomer on Sigma's part, to attach some fancy marketing to them. They're close(r) focus lenses at best.

The Tokina is a retrofocus wide-angle in design, is a zoom, and is very sharp. Considering that it's US$200 more compared to a normal lens (once again I need to reiterate that normal lenses are both simpler to design and make), I'm once again feeling that Panasonic is doing a bit of opportunistic pricing here.

[Ben_B]

First of all I reject your assertion that this is m4/3 "normal lens" because although this has comparable FOV to a normal lens (maybe a bit wider...I usually would call 50mm normal) it does not behave in the same way, and as I discussed above there is more to what makes a lens a lens than FOV.

Ok so you're railing against a price that you view as too high but the fact is that if it's desireable, which I think it is, then you pay the price they've set. A lot of the m4/3 lenses have been a little on the expensive side, look at the GH1 kit for example. Would I expect to pay $900, despite it's great focal range all it's technical goodness like distortion correction, OIS, etc, for a lens that is f4-5.6? Probably not. We're on the bleeding edge of a new format here and sometimes that comes with higher prices.

That said this thing is priced at about $100 higher than the Olympus m4/3 17mm f/2.8...is that extra price worth it for f/1.7, 3mm increased focal length (probably a bad thing), and (if I'm not mistaken..is it silent? I assume so) silent auto focus? I don't know. I think it probably is. I might end up going with the Olympus, maybe not. So...go get that one, that's $300 like you asked :) Here. Go order one. It's backordered though >.< http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/631778-REG/Olympus_261502_M_Zuiko_Digital_17mm_f2_8.html

In any case my point is complaining that the price is too high when it's one of the lowest priced lens of it's kind available for any system, not just for the GH1, then I don't really understand how you can say it's too expensive. By the same logic a $12,000 new car is too expensive because I wish I could get one for $1000. Buuuuuut...you can't. So $12,000 is "cheap."

As for the Sigmas, I would call it a Macro. It focuses extremely close, something like 18 centimeters although I've sworn it's less, and at open gives a band of focus that's about a centimeter thick or so. Furthermore the focus ring is incredibly fine-tuned, and variable, taking about 4 times the turning to go from 0.18 meters to 5 meters as to go from 5 meters to ∞. If that's not a macro I don't know what is...the thing is clearly designed for sensitive focusing at close distances. It might not be a macro in the traditional 1:1 sense but not many lenses today claiming macro are, especially not wide lenses, so the definition has changed some what. Regardless my point still stands, it's designed for focusing at close distances, which is a reason I am considering getting another lens with a similar speed/focal length.

[yslee]

Are you sure you're not confusing 4/3 standards with 35mm still standards? Because that's what you appear to be doing.

It is a normal lens, make no mistake. The fact that the DOF is deeper has nothing to do whether it's a normal lens or not.

And yes, on a 4/3 system, it *is* comparable to a 50mm on a 35mm still system, or a 35mm on an APS-C system. Bringing up things like DOF obsfucate the argument (which will always increase with the smaller imager); the focal length of the lenses compared are close to the diagonal of the imager.

Same goes for the phrase "Macro". Just because no wide angles do 1:1 doesn't mean the definition has changed. It just allows a marketing wannabe (Sigma is a close Canon follower) to (mis)place it on a series of wide angles that allow for very close focusing.

Finally, you *are* going for the "it's cheap because it's the only game in town" argument. Not a favourite stance of mine, because it doesn't let the argument about the object stand or fall on its own merits.

[Ben_B]

It's not the only game in town. It's the cheapest game in town. You can get fast 20mm lenses that will work fine on the GH1. I just said, ignoring autofocus, etc, show a cheaper one, from Nikon, Canon, etc, I don't care.

Yes I realize it has the same FOV as a normal lens does on 35mm due to crop factor, but my point is that it does not have all of the properties traditionally associated with a normal lens, which is a reason why it is more expensive than say, a (pre-AI at least) 50mm Nikon f/1.4.

As for Macro, a definition is only as good as it's real-world meaning, the term Macro, for better or for worse, has shifted away from the classical definition. At some point we're just debating diachronic vs generative linguistics and I have no interest in doing that, there is no real answer.

[admactanium]

I was initially looking at the Summilux 25mm f/1.4.
How would you compare these two lenses besides the summilux costing 2x as much.

It looks like it compares favorably. I have the Summilux. You have to factor in the cost of the 4/3 to micro4/3 adapter as well. If the 20mm 1.7 ends up being a really nice lens then I'll likely sell the Summilux and adapter and then spend the extra money on something else. The Summilux and adapter are alway quite bulky on the GH1. Not a big deal if your on rails, but for handholding and stills it's balanced a bit off. Not terribly but it's a little front-heavy.

[vip77]

@admactanium

How noisy is the AF on the 25mm f1.4?

I know the new 45mm macro is silent AF, but not sure about the new 20mm f1.7.

[admactanium]

@admactanium

How noisy is the AF on the 25mm f1.4?

I know the new 45mm macro is silent AF, but not sure about the new 20mm f1.7.
Very noisy. It sounds like a homemade robot wrestling match. Wheeet. Wheeet. Chunk.

I'd assume the 20mm will be very quiet for AF since it's also built specifically for a hybrid still/video camera. The Summilux was obviously built just as a stills lens and they didn't concern themselves with the quietness of it. Spectacular lens though. If the 20mm is even close IQ-wise then it'll probably be worth it for me to switch them out and spend the extra money perhaps towards the 7-14 or some FD lenses.

[vip77]

[quote=admactanium;1734986]Very noisy. It sounds like a homemade robot wrestling match. Wheeet. Wheeet. Chunk.
quote]

That's fantastic for when i'm filming people doing the "robot" dance.

Does the 25mm Autofocus whilst recording video?

Is there a way to dampen the sound?

If the Leica were to AF in the middle of a deserted forest would anyone hear it? <joke

[yslee]

admactanium, the 20 doesn't have the HD designation like the 14-140 has. It may still have some noise when focusing.

Incidentally your description of the 25 sounds like that of the Olympus's 17/2.8. Whirr whirr wheet click.

[haojan]

[quote=admactanium;1734986]Very noisy. It sounds like a homemade robot wrestling match. Wheeet. Wheeet. Chunk.
quote]

That's fantastic for when i'm filming people doing the "robot" dance.

Does the 25mm Autofocus whilst recording video?

Is there a way to dampen the sound?

If the Leica were to AF in the middle of a deserted forest would anyone hear it? <joke

From what I have read, it will auto focus except for the noise.
As to how noisy I do not know.
Ordered the 20mm f/1.7 and hope it is quiet and as good as the famed Summilux.
Hopefully Panasonic doesn't pull another "GH1 distribution" on this lens.

[Ben_B]

You preordered right? Does anywhere have it in stock?

[haojan]

Yes, I meant pre-ordered... So far I only found Amazon.com to have it available for pre-order.
Supposedly Adorama would carry it soon but I placed the order first and maybe do one there when they have it listed.

[Ben_B]

Yeah I would hold off preordering from Amazon if I were you given that they were the first site to get the GH1 for preorder and the last to have it in stock.

[wowubbzy]

I agree with yslee. $400 is serious price gouging for this lens. Nikon's most excellent DX 35mm f1.8 is only $200, tack sharp wide open, silent focusing. This pancake is a normal lens, 40mm is not wide, just like 52mm is not wide. They're going it because they can - what else are you going to buy with AF? The 20mm pancake does not AF during video.

That said, I just preordered the GF1/20mm. Let's see how Panny is handling this release.

[Ben_B]

And $200 is cheap for a 70mm (on GH1) f/1.8? Regardless of whether or not 40mm is wide or not the fact is that it's one of the widest lenses available for the GH1 at that price point. Here isn't anything wider at near that speed for near that cheap (except for the Olympus 17mm f/2.8)

So even if it's not a wide lens it's still one of the widest currently available, and if you're stuck shooting with tighter lenses right now like so many of us are, in the 50-100mm range with the crop factor.

[haojan]

I agree with yslee. $400 is serious price gouging for this lens. Nikon's most excellent DX 35mm f1.8 is only $200, tack sharp wide open, silent focusing. This pancake is a normal lens, 40mm is not wide, just like 52mm is not wide. They're going it because they can - what else are you going to buy with AF? The 20mm pancake does not AF during video.

That said, I just preordered the GF1/20mm. Let's see how Panny is handling this release.

I can't find the reviews that mentioned AF or non-AF during video. Is this a limitation of the GF1 or the 20mm pancake? Can you post the link?

[admactanium]

[quote=admactanium;1734986]Very noisy. It sounds like a homemade robot wrestling match. Wheeet. Wheeet. Chunk.
quote]

That's fantastic for when i'm filming people doing the "robot" dance.

Does the 25mm Autofocus whilst recording video?

Is there a way to dampen the sound?

If the Leica were to AF in the middle of a deserted forest would anyone hear it? <joke
It doesn't autofocus whilst recording. It will only work in AF-S and Manual. You can invoke a focus cycle whilst recording but it won't constantly focus. The refocus cycle isn't something anyone would want in footage as it's very fast and also very loud. But it's useful if you want to reframe something without stopping your take as long as you plan to cut around the refocus.

I don't really see how you could dampen the sound much unless you had some sort of rig around the whole thing.

[admactanium]

Just an FYI, if you guys know anyone who works for a company that has Panasonic Partner status then the price on Panny's direct site is much cheaper and from my experience they get products out much faster. I got my LX3 and my GH1 earlier than they seemed to be widely available.

[Fluke]

It doesn't autofocus whilst recording.

Oh, bummer. That's lessened my excitement a bit... I suppose the prospect of having the camera pull focus for me at f/1.7 was too good to be true. Just shows my laziness, I guess. Damnit, technology! Do all my work for me!

[AdrianF]

The 20mm pancake does not AF during video.
Where did you get that idea from? Everything I've seen so far says that it does.

The GF1 kit is being sold at 899 with the pancake at the U.S Panny store, which makes the lens even more attractive if you get a second cheap back up body for the GH1.

Imaging Resource have put up an early review of the GF1. On the movie recording they say that in Creative Movie mode, the iso reverts to auto, so it appears that even if you can lock the shutter whilst shooting Aperture Priority there might still be some variation in iso

[isotropy]

I'm assuming this this is the same lens mount that's used on the GH1? If so, will all the lens adapters (like the canon FD ones) work with this body, the same way they do with the GH1? For the price difference, I might be willing to take 30p and less manual control for the shallow DOF :)

[AdrianF]

Yeah, this, the Olympus E-P1 and the GH1 all share the m4/3 mount. You should be able to swap the the same lens mounts between them, providing you've got the right adapters. I think the Olympus can control more older 4/3 lenses for AF than the Panny's can, but that's about the only difference I can see.

[Fluke]

Where did you get that idea from? Everything I've seen so far says that it does.

Hmm. I just scoured a few articles I coud find on the GF1 and the 20/1.7 but couldn't find anything that says whether it supports video AF or not...

Can anyone point me to a source that says without a doubt that it does or doesn't?

My hunch is that it won't, as asking the GH/F1 to pick out a focus point from the shallow depth of field that f/1.7 can give and maintain it seems like a very big ask. Or is there no reason it should be any more difficult?

[AdrianF]

http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/dsc/connect/g1.html

This is the 4/3 > m4/3 list for the G1/GH1, it hasn't been updated yet to include the new lenses, but it would very surprising if they didn't support AF in movie mode. How well the AF will work, especially in low light, remains to be seen..

[Ben_B]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=32911679

[wowubbzy]

I just got my GF1/20mm pancake kit today. I apologize, the pancake DOES AF during videos even in the GF1.

What got me thinking it does not AF in videos is when I handled an early preproduction sample of the GF1/20mm pancake, AFC is grayed out in the AF selection screen (it still is). That applies to still photos. I didn't dig far enough into the menus. There's a separate continuous AF setting within the video settings, like the GH1.

So, the 20mm pancake does AF during videos (and does it very well, it's pretty quiet if you ask me). It does not allow continuous AF (AFC) during still photos.

This is probably old new by now, just wanted to apologize for posting the wrong information.

PS the 20mm pancake is tack-sharp on stills even wide open f1.7. But I still think the lens alone for $400 is too much, that is if you can find one anytime soon.

[haojan]

Where did you order yours from? Is it released in the US yet?

[wowubbzy]

Where did you order yours from? Is it released in the US yet?

Panasonic direct. They started shipping GF1 this past Wednesday.

[yslee]

What they did, I think, was to slow it down during video. That way it is not as noisy.

[isotropy]

Can you confirm what frame rate the video is shot at? I'm guessing there's no manual control over the shutter/aperture during video recording either? If that's the case, how jumpy is the exposure compensation? I'd love to see some samples :)

Thanks!