Deciding between EX-1 and Canon 5d Mark II, will a new Sony come out soon?

[ModernDemagogue]

I'm looking to upgrade my acquisition equipment. I'm primarily an editor and fx artist, but my production needs have been increasing so I'm going to make a purchase. Some directors have spoken wonders about the EX-1, and how it suits their needs well from handheld docu, to more cinema-esque when combined with a Letus and some nice glass. However, this will be a significant purchase for me so I want to make sure to get it right.

I think I've settled on the EX-1, after considering the HPX170, HPX300 and 5d Mark II (love the DoF, think it would be difficult to do lots of production with). Deciding factors were 1/2" full res chips, manual lense features, low light response, image quality, and price of cards, all balanced with it being at a price point where I won't be kicking myself in a year if I need to go out and buy a Red (hence staying away from the EX-3 and HPX300).

What I'm most curious about is Sony's timeline for the next year. The EX is 2007 hardware, is this a problem? Is there something new coming out? Is there a reason to really wait for the Red Scarlet? (I figure as a non-Red One customer, I could be on a waitlist for upwards of a year anyway). Where as for $6k plus accessories, I can be shooting at a much higher level tomorrow.

Also, what are people's experience with the best prices? I know B&H and Abel are the usuals, but do either negotiate? Are there any rebates or financing deals right now as with Panasonic?

Anyway, any help would be appreciated — if I like what I hear, I'm hoping to pull the trigger this week.

Thanks,

[jeffmiller]

Just an FYI, I'm selling mine, love the camera but cant focus on my wedding business and shoot video without one of them suffering in quality.
Link to ad

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=181772

[Bobonli]

To address the title of your post, the two cameras are not even close to being in the same league. The Sony is a proper video camera with all the bells and whistles of a pro tool. I have one-it was a significant purchase for a "serious hobbiest" (me) but I cannot say enough good things about it. It is not the most comfortable hand-held device but tolerable. I have tiny hands for a guy and can still hold it comfortably. Just hold it like you would a pistol, supporting the camera from underneath with your other hand. It makes wonderful images with a 35mm adapter too. Either with the adapter or not it will make unbelievable images.

The Canon is a DSLR with a neat video feature but does not have the pro controls of the Sony. 'Nuff said. If your primary deal is video, get a video camera. If you'd just like to have the ability to shoot some video with stills, the V_DSLR is okay.

Like you, I wondered about what was over the horizon when considering the EX-1. Bottom line there's always something cool coming in the future but do you really want to wait for it? ""It" could be 6 months or 18 months away....time you could be shooting!

As for where to buy, I could not give B&H my money on this purchase. They had a beater EX-1 on display and the salesman (at the time) was pushing other products. I couldn't get him to help me in the showroom. So I went down the road to Abel and have a wonderful relationship with them. They did me a solid on the price. The camera price is set by Sony but their are bucks to be saved on the batteries and other accessories. I cannot rave enough about Abel.

If you're in a city with a rental house, I'd suggest renting the EX-1 (see if they will give you credit toward purchase---Abel did with me---- and try it for yourself.

[JDDalllas]

I use Abel as well, great place. EX would be my choice as well, I wouldn't to show up to a pro shoot with a SLR. It's cool, but not for production work. And audio is a whole other ball of wax with the Canon.

[GuyB]

Just on the 5DMKII, there is a rumour of a new 7D comming out with 1080 24/25/30p and 720 50/60p.

For me, the DSLRs are just an extra tool in the bag, they are no where near replacing my EX1 in so many ways, but they can do some creative work the EX1 simply can't with its tiny little 1/2" type sensor...

[GuyB]

... The camera price is set by Sony....
Isn't that price fixing?

[adamr316]

I'm looking to upgrade my acquisition equipment. I'm primarily an editor and fx artist, but my production needs have been increasing so I'm going to make a purchase. Some directors have spoken wonders about the EX-1, and how it suits their needs well from handheld docu, to more cinema-esque when combined with a Letus and some nice glass. However, this will be a significant purchase for me so I want to make sure to get it right.

I think I've settled on the EX-1, after considering the HPX170, HPX300 and 5d Mark II (love the DoF, think it would be difficult to do lots of production with). Deciding factors were 1/2" full res chips, manual lense features, low light response, image quality, and price of cards, all balanced with it being at a price point where I won't be kicking myself in a year if I need to go out and buy a Red (hence staying away from the EX-3 and HPX300).

What I'm most curious about is Sony's timeline for the next year. The EX is 2007 hardware, is this a problem? Is there something new coming out? Is there a reason to really wait for the Red Scarlet? (I figure as a non-Red One customer, I could be on a waitlist for upwards of a year anyway). Where as for $6k plus accessories, I can be shooting at a much higher level tomorrow.

Also, what are people's experience with the best prices? I know B&H and Abel are the usuals, but do either negotiate? Are there any rebates or financing deals right now as with Panasonic?

Anyway, any help would be appreciated — if I like what I hear, I'm hoping to pull the trigger this week.

Thanks,


Coming from someone who started his HD career with the JVC HD100, then went to the Panasonic HVX200 and am currently an EX1 owner/user...Sony hands down is the winner. I call it the "workhorse" of prosumer HD cameras because it shoots high quality footage, many different formats (save standard def, unfortunately), best in class lowlight sensitivity, 1/2" chips and uses no tape.

The Red Scarlet is vaporware at this point so I wouldn't hold my breath. The EX1 makes really nice images and has NLE support NOW.

The EX1 looks great on the big screen. Search this forum and you'll find the thread about it. Stunning is what observers were saying. So if image quality/resolution are important the EX1 is the best choice at this price.

Do some more research though because this is indeed a significant purchase for you and you can't afford to waste money. I can honestly say that there are very few things the EX1 is bad at. The CMOS chip (skew, half-frame camera flash and soft pans), ergonomics and infrared contamination. But for all the cons of the EX1 the pros to me far outweigh it.

The audio is fantastic, the image is fantastic and you won't go bankrupt buying hard drives with the other 1 Gigabyte per minute cameras. And going the MxR memory card route (or Hoodman SxSxSDHC) will save you even more money. You won't be disappointed with the EX1 and I think it'll be around for years despite newer gear, just like the PD150 was/is. I think they're using that darn thing over in Iraq for news coverage.

B&H and Abel are amongst your best choices for price. Abel I hear has better customer service.

[timn2087]

Get a canon 7D.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos7d/

Sizes
• 1920x1080: 30/24 fps (NTSC), 25/24 fps (PAL)
• 1280x720 (HD): 60 fps (NTSC), 50 fps (PAL)
• 640x480 (SD): 60 fps (NTSC), 50 fps (PAL)

Format
.MOV MPEG-4 AVC, H.264 File size 5.5 MB/sec (1080P), 5.5 MB/sec (720P), 2.8 MB/sec (VGA) Max file size per clip 4GB, max duration 29min 59sec, Running time 12 min for 1080P, 12 min for 720P, 24 min for VGA

[zijital]

If you want use the 5D MII for video, be ready for a much more complex workflow.

Take a peek at this: http://www.dvinfo.net/news/5d-mk-ii-hits-the-bigtime.html
The Canon is about the cheapest thing in that picture, and what isn't in the picture is at least 2 other guys to get audio in a manner that will sync w/ the video in post.

EX1 has XLR inputs which makes it work as a professional video camera out of the box. Add to it the EX1 can adjust iris/focus/shutter/gain etc. LIVE, while you're recording.

The 5D MII has some cool potential in it, as does the GH1 (& from what I hear is MUCH easier to use as a video camera), but a DSLR is still first & foremost a DSLR.

Mostly figure out what you want to do & the workflow you want to use, then purchase the camera that best fits you.

[ModernDemagogue]

Thanks all, the comments have been really helpful to get me over the edge — I have a call into Abel to discuss kits and accessories etc... I think EX-1 is going to be the way to go. The limiting factors will be the CMOS moving shutter issue on strobes in music videos, but as long as I plan around it, I should be fine and can always fix it later. I guess my only other concern is remote for jibs/cranes? I don't think I'll need genlock for anything, and removable lenses, I'll just rent a letus + a nice lens I can't afford anyway.

To comment from my own experience, we almost always work with 35mm source material but more recently we've been seeing a lot more RED and other digital and I really want my work to be able to hold up against my editorial reel. A lot of web stuff coming in has been shot XDCAM, often EX-1/3, looks great, and the post workflow is unbelievably smooth, so I appreciate the comments about the potential difficulties with the 5d, DSLRs, and Scarlet — I don't even want to deal with syncing audio and sending RED to color correct while better than it used to be, requires careful prep work and a huge data backup. The 7D is tempting, but sounds like its coming in at a price point where I might be able to pick it up in a couple months to augment the EX-1 when I need really shallow DoF. Plus its data rates and compression schema just aren't going to cut it. While I'd prefer the HPX300's 4:2:2 AVCIntra100, with the EX-1 at least I can go HD-SDI out to a Kona for 10bit color space if needed.

I guess I just didn't want to drop 6-10k on something I might want to replace in 2 months. Sounds like that won't happen and it will give me a lot of freedom to develop creatively for the next year or two, which is exactly what I want. Thanks guys,

[Robert Ruffo]

We shoot with both a 5D and an EX1.

The EX1 only has a few significant advantages over a 5D, but some are HUGE:

1 - The EX1 can shoot true 24p. Yes, you can use twixtor to convert 30p footage to 24p, but it is render-intensive, and a PITA. Let's hope the 5D will fix this via firmware eventually, but for now, it only shoots 30p.

2 - The EX1 does not moire. We've shot over 100 hours of footage with it, including lots and lots of modernist buildings with lots and lots of venetian blinds and little grates and so on, and we've yet to see serious aliasing or moire problems that were noticeable in any way. The 5D moires A LOT - making weird psychedelic rainbows and other artifiacts. Shoot a city, ANY city, at f8 or f11 on the 5D and I guarantee that something will be strobing with weird moire patterns. I can deal with 30p, but I can't rely completely on a camera that can't shoot in-focus bricks, or that will moire a random jacket or tie without warning. Attempts to correct this will filters were semi-successful at best.

3 - The EX1 has better ergonomics, and a truly sweet fold-out LCD. This would not be a deal-breaker IMO, for the 5D, as you can always add accesories to make the 5D better, ergonomically, but handy things like the mentionned LCD, a powered zoom (20X and SUPER-SHARP!) with a good rocker, peaking, on-board audio (with the 5D, you need to use an external recorder for pro work) etc., do add-up to an easier shooting day.

4 - The EX1 has more actual resolution,. which is visible on fine textures - making them look more vivid and real. You see this on things like concrete, fabric, and human hair. The 5D is skipping lines to get 1080p out of 21 mp, so it is "missing" little bits of such textures. The result is that such complex textures look like digitally re-created artificial sharpening - you feel less like you are there. This is not visible all the time, but quite often - basically any time a visible feature isn't large enough to continue over skipped lines, our eyes are not allowed enough info to be able to re-create what was in fact in front of the 5D lens.

5 - The EX1 has a 10bit SDI-out, enabling very high data rate recording. Basically, add a lens adapter and an SDI recoreder, and you've got something not so far off from a RED (in some ways better).

The 5D has a few advantages over the EX1/EX3:

1 - Very light. Ths means you can use a low-weight Steadcam and get flying shallow depth of field shots, even with the added weight of a remote follow-focus. It also means you and your crew are shlepping less weight. An EX1 plus an adapter = at least 10 lbs not counting lenses/rails etc.

2 - Excellent low-light performance BUT... Not as good as an EX1 when shooting very deep DOF. An EX1 at f5 is like a 5D at f16. At f16, a 5D will give you lots of noise at night (not to mention who knows how much moire and aliasing.). You cannot beat the high DOF performance of the EX1. (Peopel seem to forget that you don't always WANT shallow depth of field. Not everything is a romantc close-up.

3 - The 5D is a superb stills camera. This is handy, even in video-only shoots. Awesome stills can be used in many ways.

4 - The 5D costs about $3000 - EX1 + M2 Encore adapter = about $10 000.

5 - No complications/problems/hassles associated with depth-of-field adapters.

6 - Slightly better dynamic range - particularly in the highlights.


You decide.

[DavidChia]

Ex1 shots time lapse , slow mo or under crank footage...And I'm a sucker for that.

[ThereIsNoLimit]

The 5D has a few advantages over the EX1/EX3:

6 - Slightly better dynamic range - particularly in the highlights.


Doesn't the EX1 have a little over 10 stops of dynamic range and the 5d about 8.

I also saw a video that compared the two. It was about snowboarding and to my eye EX1 clearly did better.

[ryansheffer]

Everything thinks that the 5d's dynamic range is worse than many cameras because most people shoot with the camera using the out of the box "standard" calibration. Once the camera is calibrated, I can attest that the dynamic range is definitely better than the Ex-1.

I think an important consideration is technical dynamic range vs. usable dynamic range. You may get information on a Ex-1 4 stops over exposed, but that information inevitable is gross and very video looking. I had the same problem with the GH1, and my Xh-A1. The 5d's sensor deals with the highlights much better than these cameras. There is a soft fall off of overexposed data. Actually that fact and the color rendition, specifically in skin tones (once properly calibrated) are the two facts that, in my opinion separate the image positively apart from an Ex-1.

[Lucian]

I also saw a video that compared the two. It was about snowboarding and to my eye EX1 clearly did better.


Link please?

[Chadfish]

IMO the EX1 looks much better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewyV2_VRLfc&feature=related

You see the cool 35mm look on the 5D, but the color is dim and the highs are blown out.

[ThereIsNoLimit]

Everything thinks that the 5d's dynamic range is worse than many cameras because most people shoot with the camera using the out of the box "standard" calibration. Once the camera is calibrated, I can attest that the dynamic range is definitely better than the Ex-1.

I think an important consideration is technical dynamic range vs. usable dynamic range. You may get information on a Ex-1 4 stops over exposed, but that information inevitable is gross and very video looking. I had the same problem with the GH1, and my Xh-A1. The 5d's sensor deals with the highlights much better than these cameras. There is a soft fall off of overexposed data. Actually that fact and the color rendition, specifically in skin tones (once properly calibrated) are the two facts that, in my opinion separate the image positively apart from an Ex-1.

I agree, EX1 looks flat and uninteresting ("video looking") but that is the magic right there. There is data in the overexposed parts and you can use it. 5D won't have the same amount of data (assuming the technical details given earlier are indeed correct)

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5Dmarkii/page25.asp

And the details seem to be correct, at least when it comes to the 5D.

8.6 stops of dynamic range at best - in still mode. Most likely slightly less in video mode. Adam Wilt tested the EX1 dynamic range and it was about 10 stops if I remember correctly, which I do.

Now back to Ex1 looking flat.
It is in post that you make it look movie-like.

Also, you can calibrate the EX1 to look more interesting straight away but that means compromised data.

I do not know how the 5D deals with clipping but in that, EX1 does not shine. (thought film is the only thing that handles clipping well from what I've seen)

I have not used 5D so I cannot positively say that it is worse when it comes to dynamic range. I have not had the chance to play with similar images at the flattest most settings from both. I have used EX1 quite a bit but I only have the specs and the examples from 5D so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

I could be wrong about everything.

[basspig]

Once you've seen EX1 footage on a huge projection screen, you'll realize it has nothing to fear --even from Panavision cameras. If you avoid more than 90% on the zoom, the lens is remarkably clean, and cleaner than a lot of the lenses used to shoot many longtime classic films.

WRT dynamic range, I think it may have been Allistair Chapman who did some tests of the CINE gamma curves and came up with a figure of 12 f-stops of dynamic range.

There is an important thing to realize:

You can only fit so much dynamic range into 0-110 IRE. That is a limitation of 8-bit/ch digital quantizing. The CINE gamma curves are designed to squeeze the sensor's 500% of video dynamic range into video dynamic range. IOW, the sensor has way more dynamic range than the medium can store. That's what the gamma curves are designed to deal with, besides mirroring the gamma curve of the display device. The knee on these curves is designed to provide a gradual roll off of details as the brightness approaches saturation. On the CINE gamma curves, it works astonishingly-well. On the STD curves, it's not very pretty.

An out of the box EX1 is pretty much a video camera. But once the CINE gamma curves are engaged and some other tweaking and customizing of the paint tools, the camera takes on an extraordinary film-like look. It's really beautiful how it renders light.

The mention of moire patterns on the EOS 5D MKII reveals one of the drawbacks of single imager cameras: the Bayer filter. Not only are there moire issues, but the real color resolution is reduced, ie., red and blue are sampled 1/4 as much as the luminance values, and green is sampled 1/2 as much, assuming a luminance that is the sum of all the R/G/B pixels in the Bayer matrix. Now on a 3-chip camera, the color resolution actually equals the luma resolution, at least at the imager block, so effectively, it is like a 6.6MP still camera in that respect, at that point in the signal chain. And the moire is nonexistent because there isn't the Bayer filter to create a hetrodyne (alias) at relatively low spacial resolution in each channel. Moire is simply low-frequency generated difference signals that are the subtraction from the highest sampling frequency minus the high frequency spacial component of the image being aliased. They are a biproduct of sampling errors. 3-chips raise the effective sampling frequency by a factor of 3, which is why we don't see much aliasing on XDCam footage.

When I watch properly-shot footage on the EX1, on my 154" projection system, it is stellar. The material I transferred to Blu-ray disc holds its own with the very best of Hollywood's offerings, and bests the other 90% very obviously. I keep asking myself, "why does this camera do this at only $6100, when there are cameras shooting at $250,000 that have the same flaws?" To me, it's a slam dunk decision. I now own 2 EX1s and an EX3.

[Graham King]

Isn't that price fixing?

No. Price fixing is collusion between competitors.

[Bobonli]

No. Price fixing is collusion between competitors.

Yes, I think that's correct. Price fixing has a definite meaning in the US.

As it was explained to me, Sony sets the MSRP on the camera and dealers must sell it at that price or risk losing their dealership. I believe this statement can be found somewhere on the Sony site, because I looked into the matter before buying mine.

Now a dealer can negotiate on batteries and other bits of kit and that's where I prefer Abel over the big box store in NYC, which does not haggle.

[Barry_Green]

Close but not exact -- Sony doesn't enforce that you sell it at the MSRP (suggested retail price), but they do set a minimum selling price and if you violate that, you lose the ability to sell the CineAlta line.

It's not "price fixing", per se, but it is fixing the price at which the product can be sold.

Canon did the MSRP thing with the XLH1, enforcing that no XLH1 could be sold for a penny below the MSRP when it first came out. Don't think they're still enforcing that though.

[chrisccw]

I appreciate your technical comparisons of the 5d and EX1. I also own two EX1/one EX3 but I bought a Panny GH1 to try out the DSLR system. I am on the fence about getting a 35mm adapter for the EX's, so I thought I'd try the DSLR to circumvent that whole rig. My main complaint about all the DSLR craze is that there is no reliable audio yet...that's a gigantic drawback for me. Syncing sound is no picnic. It should be highlighted in the plus/minus column of all of the DSLR's. But, having said that, the image is amazing right out of the box. This is exactly how I felt about the EX1 when I first saw it's image on a big HD monitor. WOW. The first difference you see is the seriously crunched blacks, I suppose due to compression? This makes for a gorgeous image a lot of the time. I suspect I can go into the EX1 matrix and achieve the same thing? It's eye-popping stuff. I figure I can use the GH1 for interesting angles and for stock footage, but the EX's are my main money maker and will be for some time. They can do it all, and they do it very, very well.

[Chadfish]

"The first difference you see is the seriously crunched blacks, I suppose due to compression? This makes for a gorgeous image a lot of the time. I suspect I can go into the EX1 matrix and achieve the same thing?"

Hi Chris

I'm not sure how you are using your EX1, but yes you can totally customize your image with the EX1. I don't go for "crushed" blacks until post so I have some room to wiggle. A picture profile of some sort should be used 100% of the time (if you aren't already) because the stock (out of the box) image is designed to be flat/neutral - so one has a blank pallet to build from.

Are you ever shooting without a picture profile?

[chrisccw]

Yes, I'm a big fan of the Vortex recommended Picture Profile settings. However, the DP's I work with are always setting the gain to -3db to crunch the blacks. I prefer doing this in post myself with the EX1 through Filmlooks. The GH1 has the look already. I'm too chicken to
mess with the EX1 matrix. But I know the film clients would love to see the blacks dropped further in the field. This is off topic now, sorry. Moving on.

[Chadfish]

I set my gain to -3 too, most of the time. But I see it as keeping the noise down more than crushing the blacks. That would be done in the matrix. Yes moving on...


I would love to have one of those fancy DSLRs as well as an EX1. I don't see it as an either/or thing. They are 2 different beasts. With only one chip I still look at a DSLR as a still camera primarily with a pretty cool video feature - though not ready for prime time. Prime lenses maybe...

[basspig]

Using CINE1 gamma and -3dB gain, I don't see any crushed blacks. At a recent car show, the EX1 captured not only the cloud higlights in the sky, but the detail of the undercoatings under the fenders of cars. That's even challenging for the naked eye.

[RonnieMartin]

There is another vendor that I would recommend. ...... Armato's in NY. I have bought and traded cameras with them for over 10 years and they have always treated me super on price and on trades. Recently I bought the Ex-1 used it for a year then traded it for the EX-3. My experience with them and my sales representative (Dennis Hopkins) has been outstanding.
Before you make your trade give them a shot.

www.armatos.com

Ronnie Martin
www.dirtracingvideo.com

[Bassman2003]

About a new model coming out soon...

It is my opinion that Sony and Panasonic are in a tough spot right now.

Their upper end of the market is in a slump and the image quality is so good in the middle that some serious questions are being asked.

When the $6000 EX-1 can come close to the $30,000 PDW-800 in certain circumstances, there is a brick wall that has been hit.

Why would they need to put out an improved EX1 if they are already eating into the thier premium models?

I see the market as being quite stagnant for a while until the economic landscape shows more clarity.

[basspig]

That certainly is an intriguing dilemma. Why would Sony do this? Did they miscalculate? Or are they banking on the possibility that the 'cheap HD' cameras will break in a year or two, whereas the expensive HD cams will last 15-20 years? Perhaps the EX are a new form of 'disposable cameras', use a few times til they break, then buy new ones?

[Chadfish]

Yeah. I'm just going to throw mi EX1 out after a year or so then get a fresh one.

[basspig]

I certainly hope that is not the case! I invested more money in these EX cameras in the past 18 months than the purchase price of my home. I expect them to outlast me and pass them down to my daughter and wife. In the past, every Sony camera I have owned, had been completely reliable and sold in perfect working order, after 5+ years of use. I hope the EX cameras will be working perfectly, ten years from now.

[booth]

I wouldn't mind a Canon 7D as a second camera ;)

[FrankC]

You're making the correct choice with the Sony EX1/3. Check to see what camera the pros are using... overwhelmingly this camera. Here's even better news for you. Buy a couple of MXR Flash 34 readers from the Australian company that developed them... they're about $45. They take SDHC cards (class 6 or better) which run about $40 or so for a 16gb card...which gives you nearly an hour of full 1080p HD. Compare that to a $600 P2 or SxS card!!! That should absolutely make the decision to go with the Sony. And then... take a look at the new NanoFlash recorder from Convergent Design and you can get a nearly uncompressed 4-2-2 color space out of the EX1/3 SDI jack. Ah...life is good.

[Lucian]

Based on the video, the 5d is third rate. EX1 all the way. Not even close.