Circular Polarizer

[Chadfish]

Howdy

I want to pick up a circular polarizer, but I would like some suggestions first.

I like the looks of this Schnider: http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=1000836&cat=26&bestseller

I can't tell if any I've looked at will fit with the lens hood of the EX1. I'm not ready to lose the hood and go all french flag just yet, as I'm still reeling from the 7 grand dropped on the camera.

I just want something with no vignetting, will fit under the hood and still be able to turn.

Oh and one other question: Would a polarizer take care of the IR bleed fowling my blacks?

Chadfish

[Chadfish]

Nobody uses a circular polarizer?

[stephenmick]

B&W Slim Circular Polarizer works perfectly on my EX1.

[Chadfish]

B&W Slim Circular Polarizer works perfectly on my EX1.

So it fits under the hood, and you can turn it easily? Got a link to the exact one you have?

[stephenmick]

Yes.

As easy to turn as a filter can be behind the lens hood.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/181590-REG/B_W_66025844_77mm_Kaeseman_Circular_Polarizing.htm l

[Graham King]

This is the one I have: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/133012-REG/B_W_65_016930_77mm_Circular_Polarizer_Glass.html

Lens hood fits over it no problem. No vignetting. Does nothing for IR problem. If you're going to put the IR filter over it you'll need the non-slim version. Lens hood won't fit over that obviously.

[Chadfish]

Thanks DrKing

I was looking at that one too, but I'm not sure what the difference between the 90.00 and the 175.00 versions of this. Could the coating be better on the expensive one? I'd love to get away with only dropping 90.00, but also this should be a one time purchase that is the best for my EX1. If it's something to leave on most of the time it should be the best I guess.

Any ideas what's better about the expensive version?

[stephenmick]

Higher quality glass.

[Graham King]

Kaeseman has to do with how the filter is made. Not exactly sure what the difference is.

I'm the kind of person who usually spends more to get higher quality equipment but I just didn't feel it was necessary on this. I am totally satisfied with the performance of the regular circular polarizer from B+W.

[Chadfish]

Here's some info I just saw when searching for Kaesman:

Polarizer
The main point of using a circular polarizer instead of a linear polarizer is to ensure that autofocus and TTL metering would work properly with your reflex camera (although this might not always be necessary). If you intend to use your polarizer also on a reflex camera, it's probably safer to get the circular variety. Since a LF camera has no mirror, you can use either a linear or a circular polarizer on your LF camera. Linear polarizers are cheaper, and some people think they are better at removing reflections than circular polarizers.

A Kaeseman polarizer is sealed, and therefore more durable (the foil on other polarizers tends to degrade over time). It is also said they are better at removing reflections.

To avoid vignetting, you can use a slim polarizer (no threads for a clip-on lens cap or an additional filter), or a wide-angle polarizer which has a larger front element.

Many polarizers tend to have a cold color bias. It's generally better to have a warm color bias than a cold color bias, hence the interest of the warm tone polarizers. In a C&D article, Englander compared ten linear and circular polarizers. His densitometer readings are (total,red,green,blue):

Wratten (.6,.62,.62,.62)
B+W Warm (.56,.57,.57,.58)
B+W circular (.51,.55,.52,.48)
Heliopan circular (.58,.64,.58,.53)
Heliopan linear (.62,.69,.63,.57)
Heliopan Warm (.60,.60,.61,.56)
Tiffen linear (.50,.52,.49,.50)
Tiffen circular (.51,.50,.52,.47)
Hoya circular (.54,.56,.55,.53)
Hoya linear (.45,.47,.45,.43).
Tiffen Warm (.62,.58,.62,.62)

He concluded that the most neutral filter was the B+W Warm. The Tiffen Warm is linear. Hoya has subsequently introduced a Warm polarizer (called the Moose filter, after the so-named wildlife photographer) in circular version, which is relatively economical.

Englender also found the Wratten .6ND filter to match the density of the polarizers well. This confirms the rule to use a filter factor of two stops for a polarizer.




It looks like the more expensive one will last longer. Now, are these B+W filters considered "warm"?

[Carl Marxx]

Ive seen your posting a while back and just have to jump in. Polarizing filters are the secret of makeing your video perform over others. The ultraviolet rays can bleach out your scenes or as (most people don't know) fool the auto exposure iris setting. With every camera I owened, I have dedicated a polarizing filter to it. The truth is: each manufacture has a different feel/look to it. The view of the clouds in the sky are a great give away. Unfortunately, you can't audition each through the mail. The imporvement by even a inexpensive P/filter is so dramatic, I will not shoot outside without one. Water sceens are a must. The down side is moisture can get between the glass and in time fog the picture, so it is advized to remove the filter when not it use an place it in the case to protect it from moisture. Some manufactures have a seal built in on the rim just for this purpose. Other manufacures use thin glass for reflective purposes. On my EX-!, for some reason, at the widest angle shot, the rim of the filter is in view. So, I am looking for another P/filter with a thinner rim. Generally, the more you pay, the better the perforomane, but not always. I can't over emphisize the deept and beauty of a polarizing filter performance in outside and water shots particular; finding the right one for your camera is like having the knowledge of a french chef. -- Carl

[Chadfish]

Hi Carl. Thanks for the info.

I am aware of the benefits of a polarizing filter. I am just trying to hone it down to the right one for my EX1. I am now deciding between these two B+W models:

90.00 Circular Polarizer Glass Filter (Slim)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/133012-REG/B_W_65_016930_77mm_Circular_Polarizer_Glass.html

175.50 Kaeseman Circular Polarizing Multi-Resistant Coating (MRC) Glass Filter (Slim)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/181590-REG/B_W_66025844_77mm_Kaeseman_Circular_Polarizing.htm l#features


175.00 is a lot to drop on one filter! I wished I had one yesterday, as I was doing a TV spot for a bike race in Trinidad California, showing beautiful shots of the rocky coast of Northern California on a sunny day, with trees, ocean, and sky all in the same shot. It is very damp here, so perhaps I should just go for the more expensive one. It seems to be bragging it that is good for extreme temperature changes, which I think means it will keep condensation out from between the filter and the lens.

[Chadfish]

OK I decided to just go for the better filter!

B+W 77mm Kaeseman Circular Polarizing Multi-Resistant Coating (MRC) Glass Filter (Slim)

I looked in my bank account and noticed I had more money than I thought (I have been on full on expenditure lock down since I bought the camera) so I got the filter, and a hot shoe extension bar. My girlfriend likes to buy shoes, and so do I! Ba-dam-bum...

I feel good that I didn't compromise.

Chadfish

[Carl Marxx]

Chadfish: Let me know if the filter rim is visable on one or all sides of the video with this more expensive filter. You can not always notice it on aquasition, but on playback with the widest angle shot. I bought a $100 CP filter just before a trip about a year ago, and it is noticable that there is a haze between the lens now. I went to Alaska to take pictures of iceburgs of all things. So let me know if there is some kind of thin seal between the lenses; I need to replace the P/filter I have now! Also, If you have not used one before, start with the clouds and experiment with the adjustment ring. Next, check-out the glass in cars in a parking lots. Then, if there is a swimming pool somewhere, watch how it cleans up the picture by removing the glaze from the water. Let me know what you think -- Earl

[Chadfish]

Hi Earl

I should receive my filter on the 9th. If you think of it and I forget remind me to share an update as to my impressions. I don't suspect I'll see the rim, as this is a thin filter. From my reading, the thin filters work better as far as odd color shifts and vignetting due to there being less glass for light to travel through at the more extreme angles of the outer rim. For 175.00 the thing better carry my camera around for me too!

When you say there is a "haze between the lens now" do you mean between the filter and the lens? Or do you mean within the lens itself with the filter off? Anyway I think this filter is what you are looking for. It says in the description:

"Kaeseman ("encased") filters are completely edge-sealed for maximum durability under extreme climatic conditions. "

I think that means it keeps out condensation. Let's hope!

Chadfish

[Carl Marxx]

No. there is a haze inside the two pieces of glass itself. I have found this happening on other P/filters I bought for other camaras in time and it is something that is not talked about. You really can't take them apart to clean them either. I have previously left attached the filter on the cameras in the past a this could be the reason for it. To get technical, all cameras will "breath" as the air preasure changes from high and low and back and forth. It is not a big deal a couple of time, but think of the number of times a year this happens. Dirt and humidity are tranfered inside the camera if you leave it out or have a soft bag. Hard cases are used for a reason and you will often see a rubber seal on them near the edges. The same thing happens with the polarizing filters that uses two pieces of glass. I recommend also not to attach it to the camera in really humid conditions since water vaper between the filter and the camera outer lense can be traped; it many not seem to be a visual problem at first but soon condinsation starts attaching to the glass surface. Attach the filter in a dry enviornment before you go on that jungle trip and remove it and seal it afterwords in its case. let me know what you think of the filter after you receive it. Thanks, Carl

[dazzdeadmeadow]

Hi there.

How easy is it turning these filters with the hood on anyway??? Or is that a really stupid question?? Never used any with my Ex but thinking about it!

[Chadfish]

I'll tell you after mine gets in later today. I'm sure it's a little tricky, but possible.

[dazzdeadmeadow]

Cheers Chadfish,

Keep us informed!!

[Chadfish]

Well I've got it. It is not easy to turn with the lens hood on. The only way to do it is with a lint free cloth on your finger, pushing the glass around. So I don't know what to do.

And by the way how are you supposed to use this thing? Do you turn it so the image looks darkest, or lightest? It seems hard to see in the camera LCD.

And should one leave this on indoors?

[dazzdeadmeadow]

Well it works best at a 90 degree angle to the sun. So aim to shoot with the sun either on your left or right. I'm planning on getting one. Was thinking of the matte box option but that is another whole heap of cash!

[Graham King]

Point it into a blue sky at a right angle to the sun. Turn it so the sky is darkest. Use the histogram or zebras to find the optimum point. I often use reflections on the ground like off a wet patch. Just rotate until the reflection is most transparent. Could also use a car windshield.

It can be used indoors but you may need to take it off to get more light in.

[Graham King]

Haha didn't even see your post dazz but yea that's it. Use the rule of "thumb" to find the area of the sky most affected by polarization.

[dazzdeadmeadow]

Chadfish, anymore luck with the filter??

[Chadfish]

Well I tested it a little the day I got it, but I didn't know how to use it. Then it got overcast for the last few days, so I have not got a chance to use it.

I did find this to help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjD6tOWDhDE

And like I said, there is no turning it with the lens hood on. I thought it was something you could just leave on most of the time to make your color pop and cut reflection, but the angle of the sun is very important for proper use, so if you are out shooting random nature or people, you will have to stop to remove the lens hood, put on your polarizer, adjust(turn) it and your position in relation to the angle of the sun, put on your hood, shoot, then remove everything until you want it again. So it looks like something I will leave off until the right conditions present themselves. It's also pretty dark - reducing the light by a couple stops. I'm glad I have it, and that it's of the highest quality, but I'm not so sure I need it for 95% of my shooting. I was a little bummed because after ordering it my hours got cut to half at my video job, so I'm wondering id the 175.00 was worth it.

We'll see.

Does anyone have some tips, or will you share the way you use your polerizer? How often do you have it on your camera? What is the most common reason you use it - Sky saturation? Shooting through glass?

Thanks.

[dazzdeadmeadow]

Yeah that video pretty much explains it all. Seems a lot of hassle without a matte box but that is another load of cash!

I think it's just a case of experimentation!

[thxdave]

I use mine mostly for clouds and blue sky saturation. I'd also pull it out if I had a problem with shooting into glass windows from outside.

[Graham King]

Couldn't have done without it on a music video where the artist was driving and we were shooting through the windshield. As I turned the filter, the windshield went from fully opaque to almost completely transparent. I'll post the video when it's done.

[Chadfish]

Cool. I'm glad I have it even if it's not something to leave on most of the time when out doors. I had hoped you could.

Actually now that I have watched some polarizer videos - I can tell when it's being used, and over used. It seem to put a dull haze over the whole shot in some cases, and I have been noticing this while watching various reality shows on my HDTV. They will be shooting a short lead in showing the outside, and the sky is saturated, but also there is a grayness to the whole shot - as if you have the NT filter on when it's not needed.

It's apparent that knowing when to use a polarizer is as important as having a good one.

[Buck Forester]

I use a polarizer and a GND filter A LOT for my still photography, but less so with my EX1. My EX1 tends to do quite well without a polarizer, my landscape shoots have shown this, but there are times I still use one. It's harder to use, as has been noted, with video because we move and pan our cameras and the polarization effect noticeable changes. With a still camera I set up each shot statically and turn my polarizer to the desired effect, and making small changes of angle requires an adjustment.

If your general angle will be the same the polarizer works good on cutting glare on water (lakes, etc.) so you can see into the water if it's clear. If cloud contrast is especially bright it can help bring out detail in the clouds, but I prefer a GND filter for this situation if included in a larger landscape shot. Polarizers work wonders on rainbows and reducing the glare on trout to bring out the colors, etc. When going really wide angle you have to watch for uneven (distracting) polariztion effects on a blue sky, rendering some areas unnaturally darker than others.

But I always have a circular polarizer in my bag.

[Graham King]

It seem to put a dull haze over the whole shot in some cases

A polarizer shouldn't do that. I'm not sure about overuse. The only reason I can't leave it on all the time is because of the light loss. Otherwise I would.

there is a grayness to the whole shot - as if you have the NT filter on when it's not needed

An ND filter doesn't do that. It just cuts light evenly. So having it on when not needed would simply yield an underexposed picture.

[Chadfish]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Underexposed takes it closer to black - which looks more gray. And "dull hase" wasn't the best choice of words. Underexposed it is.

[Carl Marxx]

I always use the polarizing filter outside. Even when it is off, or not filtering the uv rays, it acts as a neutral density filter and protects the camera lense from dirt and oils. With the hood on the EX-1, i paint a small line on the front rim of the P/F that can be seen from inside the hood. I also turn the filter rim with my finger from inside in front to make small ajustment changes to the rotation. Don't slip, or you will get a fingerprint on the filter. The power of a great P/F ajusted right is outstanding. I have taken long footage of the same scene both ways, and though it may not me apperant at first, the dept and quality of using a polarizing filter on any video camera gives a teriffic feeling of richness to it. -- Carl