View Full Version : Filmout 1080 & 720 intercuttable?
Indyreel
08-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Is intercuttable a word? :p
Anyway, my question is; If 1080 and 720 GH1 footage are intercut on a filmout, will the images look noticably different when projected onto the big screen?
luke stewart
08-27-2009, 09:45 PM
Generally the 720P footage will look softer. And if the shutter speed is much different, that will be noticeable too. Fortunately, filmouts are going the way of the Dodo Bird.
Illya Friedman
08-28-2009, 04:54 AM
Is intercuttable a word? :p
Anyway, my question is; If 1080 and 720 GH1 footage are intercut on a filmout, will the images look noticably different when projected onto the big screen?
Depends on who is doing the work. The two can be made to look identical.
I'm going to be frank.
When I viewed the 720 v 1080 on my 1080p projector, I was pretty shocked how bad 720p was. It made me never want to use 720p for anything other than 32" downwards.
pix2pixels
08-28-2009, 07:07 AM
Some dudes did a film-out cropping the 1080x1920 to 800x1920 for a wide screen film projection. Apparently they got away with it: can be seen in cinemas under the title of 'Public Enemies'. Just saw the damn thing on a screen significantly larger than 32".
Go and look for yourself, listen to pixel peepers, or read here:
http://www.theasc.com/magazine_dynamic/July2009/PublicEnemies/page1.php
Most wedding videos look shocking on any video projector, what ever you do...
Ian-T
08-28-2009, 07:46 AM
The end result of what you see on a large monitor vs video projection vs film out are all different. I think sometimes the beautiful image that can be shown on a film-out can look terrible on a large video monitor. They are different perspectives that use different methods of presenting. I've seen Hollywood movies that looked not so good on home projectors but looked exceptionally well in regular theaters. I've also seen Hollywood movie trailers that looked excellent when downloading from Appletrailers.com but looked noisy as heck when shown in theaters (go figure). With that said why would a video camera be any different?
Then there are movies like the recent "Crank 2" that looked great in theaters. Some might not have liked the choice in color correction....but it looked good coming from the Canon A1 and the cheap HF10 (which by the way uses the same codec as the GH-1@ 17Mbps). The 720p (when shot right) coming from the GH-1 looks much better. Why wouldn't it look just as stellar on a properly done film-out? Like Illya suggests....it all depends on who's doing the work.
My thing is if the film (or video) looked bad on a screen bigger than 32"....then it was poorly shot. I've seen poorly shot FILM also that looked bad on a computer screen (forget large screen projection).
It's true film v plasma v lcd v dlp are all different. But quality is quality I'm afraid.
I can tell you what I know and (I've extensive comparisons between our HPX171, HPX500 Sony EX1 and GH1 on Plasma 42", Panasonic 1080p calibrated projector.)
And 720p from the GH1 looks poor blown up to my 100" projector, badly shot or whatever it has much less sample areas for colour resolution and luminance, and is worse than I expected. I've tried every combination going to make 720p look good and it just doesn't have sufficient colour resolution. Background colours just merge in one colour - this is 4:2:0 at work, certainly at 720p.
1080 looks a lot better, a magnitude better. (But we know the mud.)
The HPX171 looks silkier than the 1080 or 720 of the GH1 but there is more noise and less detail. But the 'look' of the HPX171 is preferable.
My projector is set up to grade (not at a cinematic level) but at a broadcast level - it's more than good enough to judge quality.
You wil maybe get away with CUs on 720 and wides on 1080.
720p on the 32" (LCD) looks fine and starts to look poor after that. I can't see how a film-out will improve on hefty sampling of colours; that look like video bleed with such a small sample area. I prefer to work in 1080p and keep the camera smooth.
Just my two pence, everyone has there own version of quality but you have to know your kit's limits.
(I wasn't that impressed with Crank 2, but isn't the main camera XH-A1 - 1440 x 1080 and not a 720p mode?)
vip77
08-29-2009, 05:06 PM
Hey ROne,
Just wondering, are you projecting the original avchd 4:2:0 or have you run your footage through e.g. Cineform NeoScene which is supposed to restore some of the colourspace???
Martti Ekstrand
08-30-2009, 09:13 AM
And 720p from the GH1 looks poor blown up to my 100" projector, badly shot or whatever it has much less sample areas for colour resolution and luminance, and is worse than I expected. I've tried every combination going to make 720p look good and it just doesn't have sufficient colour resolution.
How do you upscale the 720 to 1080?
Ian-T
08-30-2009, 11:35 AM
(I wasn't that impressed with Crank 2, but isn't the main camera XH-A1 - 1440 x 1080 and not a 720p mode?)
True, but what does that have to do with your issue of sample area and color resolution? I can go into other feature films that were blown up from SD to view on the large screen that looked good.
Don't get offended but I think maybe your problem is comparing the GH-1's 720p to its own 1080p. There will be a difference, yeah, when blown up....but is it passable compared to other cams that have been used on the big screen...more than likely yes. I'm also intersted in knowing what your method of upscaling is. This might be the problem.
True, but what does that have to do with your issue of sample area and color resolution? I can go into other feature films that were blown up from SD to view on the large screen that looked good.
Don't get offended but I think maybe your problem is comparing the GH-1's 720p to its own 1080p. There will be a difference, yeah, when blown up....but is it passable compared to other cams that have been used on the big screen...more than likely yes. I'm also intersted in knowing what your method of upscaling is. This might be the problem.
I am comparing it's own 720p to its own 1080/25 - I thought that was the thread question? Have I missed something?
There isn't a problem - 1280x720 @ 4:2:0 is NOT 1920x1080 4:2:0. They're not going to look the same, end of. Otherwise why would we need the superior mode of 1080? A scaler can only do some much, I've had outboard scalers on different set-ups.
How do you upscale the 720 to 1080?
Projector's internal scaler - which does a reasonable job. The HPX 171 720/25 looks pretty good when through the same set-up.
All I'm saying is when 720 compared to 1080 directly there is no comparison. That's why you have the 1080/25 mode. And it's specfically the colour in detail backgrounds give it away. I've tried this very thing; I wanted to cut 720 with 1080 for the obvious reasons - so I did loads of shooting in both. They won't cut together (detailed wides) - they look very different. I wouldn't risk a film out, personally. It's up to the individual whether they would or not.
(mud aside.) :)
Martti Ekstrand
08-31-2009, 02:24 AM
Projector's internal scaler - which does a reasonable job.
Try proper software rescaling like scaling up in After Effects or even better use Red Giant Software's Instant HD / Resizer advanced package. The scaling in NLEs are geared toward speed over quality.
http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/host-applications/adobe-after-effects/magic-bullet-instant-hd/
http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/host-applications/adobe-after-effects/magic-bullet-instant-hd-adv/
Illya Friedman
08-31-2009, 02:35 AM
All I'm saying is when 720 compared to 1080 directly there is no comparison. That's why you have the 1080/25 mode. And it's specfically the colour in detail backgrounds give it away.
Well I'm going to say that my mileage has varied.
Using a Quantel Pablo and After Effects we did some quick 720p60 uprezzing and detail enhancing and ended up with images that were at least 95% of the 1920x1080 24p mode. Images viewed on a 30' screen projected by a Christine CP2000.
There is some talent involved in working the best method for uprez. I'm not saying that I would choose to shoot in 720p60 over 1080p24 (I wouldn't) I'm saying that for the D.I. we did months ago, any person with a trained eye would have had a very hard time telling the difference after post processing to the image- I sure did. We also noticed slightly better handling of the red channel in 720p60, not sure why that was.
I recommend bearing in mind that uprezzing alone will probably not be enough to intercut with 1920x1080. You will likely also need to add a judicial amount of sharpening.
slinks
08-31-2009, 07:21 AM
well I don't know much about filmout but as I recall 28 days later was shot on SD dv and to me I thought it looked decent on the big screen. I'm sure they spent tons on post but hey if they can do it with dv they can do it better on 720. Just the right people i suppose.
Try proper software rescaling like scaling up in After Effects or even better use Red Giant Software's Instant HD / Resizer advanced package. The scaling in NLEs are geared toward speed over quality.
http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/host-applications/adobe-after-effects/magic-bullet-instant-hd/
http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/host-applications/adobe-after-effects/magic-bullet-instant-hd-adv/
It might be an interesting experiment. But the 1080p mode is for me so I don't really need to do anything with 720 in the long run.
I use AE fairly regular and it does resize better than NLE, but can only do so much.
Thanks.
well I don't know much about filmout but as I recall 28 days later was shot on SD dv and to me I thought it looked decent on the big screen. I'm sure they spent tons on post but hey if they can do it with dv they can do it better on 720. Just the right people i suppose.
I thought 28days looked plain terrible at the flix. It may have been a style choice but just substituting film for a DV look and then shooting as though they were shooting film didn't work for me.
When it switches to film at the end, it's a breath of fresh air. (Probably the point.)
Well I'm going to say that my mileage has varied.
I recommend bearing in mind that uprezzing alone will probably not be enough to intercut with 1920x1080. You will likely also need to add a judicial amount of sharpening.
Doesn't the sharpening produce horrible ringing on the big screen?