Using a Zoom H4n with the EX cameras

[Aodfilm]

Just wondering if anyone used the Zoom H4n as a seperate audio source with the Sony EX1 or EX3 camera. Can the Zoom H4n even handle 23.97 fps?

[xpycm]

Can the Zoom H4n even handle 23.97 fps?

What do you mean by that?..

[Aodfilm]

I'm trying to find an article that states that the Zoom H4n can be switched to record audio at 23.97. If not and it's recording audio at 29.97 and the EX camera is filming at 23.97, that would cause a major drift in audio in a matter of minutes.

[Chadfish]

I have the Zoom H4, and it goes out of sync quickly. I've seen tests done on possibly camcorderinfo.com comparing the zoom to video and it went way out. I lost sync in only a 6 minute clip where I was recording a play, and an actor entered from the back of the room, so I put it there for a short speech. It is a good recorder I have to say, but it's laborious syncing it with video. Get the Sony D50.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/524130-REG/Sony_PCM_D50_PCM_D50_Professional_Portable.html

Don't skimp on audio!

[basspig]

Unless you want to do surround sound, why would you want to go through the added hassle of separate audio recording?

[xpycm]

As I understand, H4n (or any other separate audio recorder) has nothing to do with frames rates of video (correct me if I am wrong...) I use H4n recording .wav files at 48k 16bit quality (same as your camcorder), and within 1hr on timeline video and audio go out of sync about 2 frames... I shoot usually 30p or 60i though, but I think, it'll work the same with 24p...

[Chadfish]

As I understand, H4n (or any other separate audio recorder) has nothing to do with frames rates of video (correct me if I am wrong...) I use H4n recording .wav files at 48k 16bit quality (same as your camcorder), and within 1hr on timeline video and audio go out of sync about 2 frames... I shoot usually 30p or 60i though, but I think, it'll work the same with 24p...


It's true. There is no frame rate choice on audio recorders. The best you can do is to have a time code BNC connection to the camera, but the EX1 doesn't have that.

I can't speak for the H4n, but I have used the H4, and it ain't too good for syncing. I use the Rolland R-4Pro and it syncs beautifully. You just find a nice loud transient like a hand clap or a drum hit and line those up. If the frame snap in your video editing app doesn't allow you to get it exact - put the audio behind the video, but as close as you can. It looks more natural because sound travels slower than light.

And basspig, I would use an external audio recorder for something like a play where I have 4 mics up to cover the whole stage, or if I want 24 bit which allows me a lower(safer) level with a lower noise floor/more headroom. I have situations where I need at least 3 tracks of audio, and the R4Pro does beautifully. There is also the Rolland R-44, which is 900.00 - 1,000.00 (a grand cheaper than the R4Pro) but records on SD cards rather than a hard drive. Anyway, my point is that if you have a good recorder you can trust, it's not a headache to line up the audio clips to the video, then just link them. I still export my audio anyway and mix it, then master it in Cubase and Wavelab. I rarely just go with the audio as it is straight off the camera.

Chadfish

[xpycm]

I can't speak for the H4n, but I have used the H4, and it ain't too good for syncing.
Chadfish

There is a lot (and I mean a lot!..) of improvement from H4 to H4n. It is an amazing recorder for the money...

[Chadfish]

There is a lot (and I mean a lot!..) of improvement from H4 to H4n. It is an amazing recorder for the money...

I'm sure. The H4 was awesome too. But can you verify that it syncs well with pro audio used for video? If you have one you should record 20 minutes of audio from the H4n and your video camera simultainously - both listening to the same audio source. Then line them up in your NLE at the beginning, and check if they are still lined up at the end of the clips.

That's really the only way to tell. I have no doubt the audio sounds good. The question is whether people can rely on it for use along with video.

[xpycm]

I'm sure. The H4 was awesome too. But can you verify that it syncs well with pro audio used for video? If you have one you should record 20 minutes of audio from the H4n and your video camera simultainously - both listening to the same audio source. Then line them up in your NLE at the beginning, and check if they are still lined up at the end of the clips.

That's really the only way to tell. I have no doubt the audio sounds good. The question is whether people can rely on it for use along with video.

I already answered that in my previous post: I use H4n recording .wav files at 48k 16bit quality (same as your camcorder), and within 1hr on timeline video and audio go out of sync about 2 frames... i.e., I synced camcorder video & audio clip (left ch. - on camera mic; right ch. - wireless mic) on one track with the audio file on the other track from an H4n, placed on the same podium, where the speaker presented, rolling for 1hr non stop... The result - 2 frame difference. So, I synced them in the middle of that hour - 1 frame out of sync at the beginning and 1 frame - at the end.

I ended up using H4n audio (much better quality) and disabled both audio channels from video clip...

[basspig]

And basspig, I would use an external audio recorder for something like a play where I have 4 mics up to cover the whole stage, or if I want 24 bit which allows me a lower(safer) level with a lower noise floor/more headroom. I have situations where I need at least 3 tracks of audio, and the R4Pro does beautifully. There is also the Rolland R-44, which is 900.00 - 1,000.00 (a grand cheaper than the R4Pro) but records on SD cards rather than a hard drive. Anyway, my point is that if you have a good recorder you can trust, it's not a headache to line up the audio clips to the video, then just link them. I still export my audio anyway and mix it, then master it in Cubase and Wavelab. I rarely just go with the audio as it is straight off the camera.

Chadfish

In these situations, where you need the flexibility to mix numerous tracks in post, of course a good multitrack recorder makes sense.
When I record symphony orchestras, I always use an 8-track 24-bit/96KHz recorder--when the client's budget allows this.
In budget situations, I use a mixer, multiple mics, and direct into the EX1.

[Chadfish]

xpycm

Sorry. I guess I was distracted as I read (I should have been working!) your post. That's good to hear that the H4n stays in sync pretty well! I have thought about upgrading to the H4n, but on the other hand for 150.00 more I can get the Sony D-50, which is much cleaner, and has better built-in mics. But then again the D-50 does not have XLR/Quarter Inch combo jacks, or Phantom power. You have to use an 1/8" mini jack, which isn't cool for long cable runs.

Have you used the H4n's Phantom power with any good mics xpycm? I tried to use an Audio Technica AT4033, and it worked, but the whole time the unused channel had a high pitched tone being recorded. You can't just record a 24bit mono file by plugging into channel 1 on the H4. It comes out as a stereo file with signal on channel 1. You have to use an audio editor to pull off a mono file from the stereo file. Just an extra step that it a mild pain.

Can the H4n record mono 24 bit files? Or 2 mono files? Just curious.

Chadfish

[DadinWestchester]

I use the H4n and 4073A's for stage recording. I rarely am off more than 4 or 5 frames an hour with the EX-1. Next up are concert season and stand up comics. Good budget equipment.

[Aodfilm]

So it seems that there's not much drift if you shoot at 29.97