Brand New EX1 User - Is Stroby looking LCD Normal?

[Chadfish]

Hi all.

I just took delivery of my beautiful EX1 yesterday, and have finally gotten around to playing with it. I had already watched the Vortex Media DVD and read most of the field guide before it came, and I am about to go through the DVD again with the cam in hand. God it's awesome...

As it is now, I have it set to 720/30P and created a couple picture profiles with Doug's recipes. What I'm seeing is that the LCD and Viewfinder are slightly strobing (is that a word?) when I pan. It looks a little jittery. I have not worked in progressive (coming from a VX2100) and I am not sure if this is normal, or if I have something else set wrong. My shutter is at 1/60.

Thanks.

Chadfish

[Iudex]

Welcome to progressive!

Have fun.

[Chadfish]

Welcome to progressive!

Have fun.

Well I just thought it odd because though it looks stroby in the VF/LCD, the footage looks fine when played back or captured. I thought there might be some monitor refresh rate to adjust.

[buhce]

Word of advice regarding the LCD. get a protector for it. It scratches very easily.

[Chadfish]

Thank you buche. I will.

One other think I don't understand is the 720/60P setting. Does that shoot 60FPS? And if I use 720/60P should I have my shutter at 120? If one's usual project is 30fps I don't know what one would use 60P for. To play back at 60fps for a smoother look on TV or DVD or web?

[Sverker Hahn]

Yes, it shoots 60 fps. You may have your shutter at 120 or any other shutter speed available. If you turn shutter off, you get 1/60th of a second. Use 60fps if you shoot high speed objects, flying birds, sports etc. Makes movements more natural.

[cheezweezl]

use 60p if you want a "video" look. only for that reason.

[Iudex]

Be careful with 720/60p mode and 720/30p with overcranking at 60fps, they are two different things. 60p mode does not overcrank, so the quality will not be as good as shooting 30p and overcranking at 60fps.

In a 30p project you would use overcranking at 60fps for slow motion playback at half normal speed. Check it out, the camera automatically processes the clip to 30fps and half normal speed (60 fps -> 30 fp0.5s).

[Chadfish]

OK Guys I got it now. I am aware of the cool overcrank mode while in 720/30P. I just wasn't sure that you could deliver anything at 60P. I thought TV, or DVDs or web video topped out at 30fps. And I definitely don't want anything to have a "video" look. I am liking the filmic look of the EX1 footage at 30P with the shallow DOF combo.

Praise be the EX1.

Chadfish

[Iudex]

Go all the way down to 24p :D, I love it.

[adamr316]

Beware of 30p. It is difficult to convert to other formats, is non-standard (BluRay Disc doesn't support it, for example) and it's a framerate that most people aren't used to. It's fine if you are delivering ONLY for NTSC viewers or computer screens but if you ever plan to use your footage elsewhere...24p is your best bet.

60p, by the way, is the compromise HD format to get smooth motion. 1080/60i is technically the highest resolution/smoothest motion but because all HDTVs are going progressive-only (the i in 60i means interlaced, the technical opposite of progressive) therefore a lot of displays have issues displaying interlaced footage correctly.

I could go on but I'd highly recommend googling HD formats and learning more about them.

[basspig]

Just a couple thoughts about why the LCD may appear more 'strobed' than the edited version.. it could be a matter of the ambient light.. I noticed that the LCD appears to flicker when viewed in direct sunlight. The other possibility is that the refresh rate is different than the material shot. I noticed that it makes a difference if the display you're viewing on is set up for 60fps or native 24fps for instance. My new projector has a 24p mode where it displays each frame twice, emulating a double-bladed shutter on a film projector. This results in smoother looking motion and less visible flicker, as the picture is updated at 48Hz.

The science of capture and display with regard to frame rates is somewhat complex and often confusing. But these are a couple of reasons why the flicker/judder might be perceived to varying degrees depending on what display you watch it on.

BTW, I recommend 24P shooting, because not only is it compatible with Blu-ray, it also gives each frame 33% more bits to work with, so the quality is much better.

[Chadfish]

Beware of 30p. It is difficult to convert to other formats, is non-standard (BluRay Disc doesn't support it, for example) and it's a framerate that most people aren't used to. It's fine if you are delivering ONLY for NTSC viewers or computer screens but if you ever plan to use your footage elsewhere...24p is your best bet.

60p, by the way, is the compromise HD format to get smooth motion. 1080/60i is technically the highest resolution/smoothest motion but because all HDTVs are going progressive-only (the i in 60i means interlaced, the technical opposite of progressive) therefore a lot of displays have issues displaying interlaced footage correctly.

I could go on but I'd highly recommend googling HD formats and learning more about them.

Hi Adam

I am generally aware of the various resolutions & frame rates and interlace vs. progressive etc. I had just never encountered 60P. My Sony Bravia goes as far as 1080i 120hz, and I'm pretty happy with it, even though there is no HD brodcast higher than 720 (save for a special order of "Hancock" on Dish Network). Viewing my EX1 footage at 1080/30P last night was mind blowing to say the least. Finally I own a real camera!

What suprises me the most is that BlueRay does not support 30P. WTF? I personally prefer it to 24P. Did Doug Jensen screw me by suggesting I shoot everything in 1080/30P? LOL. He said in the Vortex training vid that the small population shooting for actual film are the ones who SHOULD use 24P, but he did not mention BlueRay not supporting 30p.

The thing is: I work for a multimedia marketing agency. We don't do blueray at the moment, but when the market up here in Humboldt wants it we'll go there. I want it so I can enjoy my work, or just home movies at full resolution. But about all of my paid work goes to SD TV, now with a web version in HD. It's kind of a drag to do something in 24P, then make it NTSC. With BlueRay not allowing 30P it causes me to have to choose a frame rate I don't particularly prefer if I expect it to end up on one of those discs. Going from 24P to SD TV in the past has resulted in fluttery looking footage.

How does one deliver for TV while leaving the door open for BlueRay in the future?

[basspig]

This is a rapidly-changing technological world. What was true when Doug published his video has changed somewhat. Last year, most of the HD shot was destined for a 60i broadcast world. You'd choose 30P or 60i in that case.

Today, with Blu-ray becoming the dominant distribution disc medium, 24P is king. With internet distribution, 24P again is at an advantage due to it's bandwidth conservation, making a better picture for the given bitrate.

24P to 60i should not be a problem---your DVD player does it all the time when you watch a movie on DVD. Motion picture films are broadcast on television all the time. They're all 24fps.

Where it gets ugly is when 30P footage has to be squeezed into 24fps Blu-ray. It doesn't look pretty at all when the camera pans or zooms.

Unless requested by the client, I now shoot everything 24P.

Another option is to shoot 720/60P. That can distill to Blu-ray or broadcast equally well. I have one client I sub for that chooses that format for most of his projects.