50p => 25p conversion program

[vip77]

I'd read in another read that you could use Toast to convert 50p to 25p by dropping every other frame.

But alas, I'm on a pc and I edit with Vegas.

So does anyone happen to know a lossless solution for converting 50p to 25p?

[dmoreno]

From what I have experienced with Vegas, as long as you set the clips properties in the timeline to "Disable resample" it will simply drop frames. I am in "NTSC land" so I have only tried 60p to 24 conversions, but I am guessing this workflow for PAL footage should work:

a.drop original 50p footage in a Vegas 25p timeline
b. select al clips
c. go to edit/switches/disable resample
d. edit your footage
e. render to as 25p in the format you like

you can also edit your footage first and then do steps b. and .c, the only problem is that you will see some ghosting in your footage during editing because of vegas blending frames

[sammysammy]

demoreno, thanks!
how about the project properties do we set that to 50p or 25p?

so far i know the time line and the final render are 25p , does the project properties it self need to be 25p or stay like the orig. file 50p?
thanks!

[dmoreno]

In vegas project and timeline settings are the same. They should be set to 25p. Good luck!

[sammysammy]

thanks!

[vip77]

Cheers dmoreno!

Also, has there been any consensus reached on what's better:

1080 25p @ 1/50 shutter

or

720 50p @ 1/100 shutter (in a 25p timeline) and uprezzed to 1080

??????????

I can't tell on my old telly!

[dmoreno]

If you plan to edit 720 50p in a 25p timeline it is better to use 1/50 shutter speed and make sure you're NLE is simply dropping every other frame ( In Vegas set clip properties to "disable resample" in other NLEs like final cut I've heard it is "turn of frame blending" or something like that).
If you convert 720 50p @1/100 to 25p by dropping frames it might appear to "stroby" due to the low motion blur. Resampling or blending frames might help emulate a 1/50 shutter motion blur, but usually results in ghosting and artifacts.

Summing up: use 1/50 shutter if you plan to edit in a 25p timeline and no slow motion is gonna be applied (1/100 will work great for a 50% speed slo mo in a 25p timeline).

720 upresized to 1080 will never have the same amount of detail as 1080 but you probably need a big full HD TV to really notice the difference. The advantage of shooting 720p is that the codec appears to hold compression better (less "mud" artifacts).
If you're using a tripod and shooting low motion footage use 1080, if you're hand holding the camera, doing fast pans, or shooting high motion footage use 720.

I hope that helps!

[ROCKMORE]

dmoreno
Do you know if the lower end Lumix TZ7 the also shoots 720 50p will play back as 50% slow motion?

[dojoman]

How do you do this in Toast dropping frames from 50p to 25p?

[Martti Ekstrand]

Just set the output to 25 fps.

[dojoman]

Ok thanks. Let me try that.

[dmoreno]

dmoreno
Do you know if the lower end Lumix TZ7 the also shoots 720 50p will play back as 50% slow motion?

any camera that shoots 50p can give good slow motion at 50% or can be easily converted by dropping frames to 25p at regular speedl

[Martti Ekstrand]

TZ7 does not shoot 50p, it's 25p. Nonetheless it's a neat little pocket point-n-shoot for both stills and video.

[ROCKMORE]

TZ7 spec
Motion Picture Recording
[4:3] VGA: 640 x 480 pixels, 30fps (Motion JPEG) QVGA: 320 x 240 pixels, 30 fps (Motion JPEG) / [16:9] WVGA: 848 x 480 pixels, 30 fps (Motion JPEG) / [HD Movie] 1280x720, NTSC Mode: NTSC model: 60p(CCD output is 30p) / PAL model: 50p(CCD output is 25p) (AVCHD Lite, SH: 17Mbps / H:13Mbps / L:9Mbps ) / 30fps (Motion JPEG)

GH-1 spec
Motion Image
Motion Jpeg [4:3] QVGA : 320 x 240, 30fps / VGA : 640 x 480, 30fps / Motion Jpeg [16:9] WVGA : 848 x 480, 30fps / Motion Jpeg [HD] 1280 x 720, 30fps / AVCHD NTSC [Full HD] 1920 x 1080, 60i (sensor output is 24fps)(FHD: 17Mbps) / AVCHD NTSC [HD] 1280 x 720, 60p (SH: 17Mbps, H: 13Mbps, L: 9Mbps) / AVCHD PAL [Full HD] 1920 x 1080, 50i (sensor output is 25fps)(FHD: 17Mbps) / AVCHD PAL [HD] 1280 x 720, 50p (SH: 17Mbps, H: 13Mbps, L: 9Mbps)

[Martti Ekstrand]

[HD Movie] 1280x720, NTSC Mode: NTSC model: 60p (CCD output is 30p) / PAL model: 50p(CCD output is 25p) (AVCHD Lite, SH: 17Mbps / H:13Mbps / L:9Mbps )

I have one TZ7 PAL model and can assure you that the AVCHD files coming out of it runs at 25 fps even if they are inside a 50p wrapper.

[ROCKMORE]

Hey Martti that was quick. I'm just passing along info I found. What does the 50p function do?
What is the best way to pull slow motion out of the GH1? I'm using a PC with CS4.

Thanks

[Martti Ekstrand]

I understood that which is why I bolded the relevant parts in that chunk of info. No idea why it's in a 50p wrapper. I'm on mac with FCP so can't really help out there but I would fathom that if you drop the files on a Premiere sequence set to 50p (PAL) or 59.94 (NTSC) you can simply slow down the clip to 50%.

[Martti Ekstrand]

Or if Premiere has the same "Interpret footage" function like After Effects you could open that window and tell it to read the 50 fps file as 25.

[Simon Höfer]

Open a 25p project (e.g. 720 or 1080). Drop a 720p50 clip onto the timeline. Right click on the clip and select speed. Type in 50% and confirm. There you go!

If you are in a 1080 project, you can also right click and scale the clip to frame size.

[ROCKMORE]

Thanks Simon I'll try that when I get the GH1, Just trying to get a jump on problems before I get the camera.
I've seen some nice slow motion out of the GH-1 pal version. One clip from Bordeaux France you may have seen, but only with the vimeo compression. How good is it from the original file?

[ROCKMORE]

Is the there any advantage to shooting at 720 50p if your end result will be real time playback over shooting your original file at 1080?

[Simon Höfer]

Well, I just shot a short handheld test last weekend. Played back on the 40" Sony KDL40Z4500 LCD at work it looked really nice and smooth.

720p upscaled to 1080 looks awesome. Hard to see the difference. Much sharper than my HVX200.

[Simon Höfer]

At 1080 the codec breaks much faster at rapid motion than 720. So you have to be careful with 1080.

[Martti Ekstrand]

I've seen some nice slow motion out of the GH-1 pal version. One clip from Bordeaux France you may have seen, but only with the vimeo compression. How good is it from the original file?

Very good. I got a short film where the bigger part is in slow-motion here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=179537

on Vimeo you can get the h.264 file for it for better viewing than their crude Flash video compression.

[ROCKMORE]

So if I'm not mistaken shooting at 720 50p is almost the same as shooting film at 50fps, then transfer back to tape at 50fps to give effectively double the data per frame played in real time (25fps) I have tested a few 1080p cameras and seen a lot of strobe problems during even a slow pan. This 50p looks like a good solution to that problem.
Simon, so the consecutive frames once you have changed the frame rate to 50% in CS4 become 50 different consecutive images in each 2 seconds of playback? Same as film shot at 50fps?

[Martti Ekstrand]

Yup, the 720p 50 fps mode is exactly like shooting 50 fps on a film camera. On the NTSC it depends on if the output is NTSC 29.97 or 24 fps. The latter gives 40% playback speed of the real-time.

The major thing to avoid strobe when panning is making sure the shutter speed is at 1/50 for 25 fps. Shorter shutter speeds don't yield enough motion blur to smooth out pans/tilts or fast action. Which means having two ND8 filters (or equivalent) available for GH1 in daylight if you also want to utilize open apertures for short DOF. It's really light sensitive even at 100 ISO.

[ROCKMORE]

That's great news about 50fps.
I have a few links you may have seen. What's your gut reaction to this tech data and images as compared to your hands on experience?

<http//vimeo.com/5981422 (http://vimeo.com/5981422)>

http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/08/10/comparing-a-red-one-5d-mk-ii-and-panasonic-gh1-highly-illogical/

www.vimeo.com/channels/panasonicgh1 (http://www.vimeo.com/channels/panasonicgh1)

http://www.rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html

[Martti Ekstrand]

Already discussed here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=179719

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=179744

Way more GH1 clips on Vimeo here

http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1

[ROCKMORE]

I'll be shooting with the GH-1 Pal version in S.E.Asia and sending test footage back to NY. Will the 1080/720 h-264 footage shot at 50p or 25p be able to convert to 29.97 NTSC or do I have another problem?

[TrueIndigo]

"720p upscaled to 1080 looks awesome" -- I elected to shoot 720 after being worried about the GH1's 1080. Simon, what software/workflow method are you using to upscale the 720?

[Martti Ekstrand]

http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-instant-hd/ <--- two great up-scalers in one $99 package.

[Simon Höfer]

Well, I just scale the 720 footage up to fit the 1080 frame in Premiere CS4. No need for a third party scaler. That's when I work in a 1080 project and also have 1080 clips in there. If you've only got 720 files, theres no need to upscale, just work in a 720 project.

I don't know if a third party upscaler works better than this, but I don't care. I watched it on a 40" sony lcd and it looks really sharp. No normal person is going to see any difference anyway.

[ROCKMORE]

I have one TZ7 PAL model and can assure you that the AVCHD files coming out of it runs at 25 fps even if they are inside a 50p wrapper.

Martti
How smooth is the footage from that tz7 50p setting?. The new FZ38/35 is coming out here in 2 weeks here. I bought an 8gig Extreem III card. and have been trying to run some of my own tests. Not so easy here, (Jakarta) but I managed to shoot some with the Canon SX1 1080p in a store with not great light, and was surprised it still looked pretty bright and sharp. The motion is rough on my PC. I loaded it into cs4 1080p project. Played ok but did not render out correctly. So I tried a CS3 HDV project (CS3 only has HDV option) Worked normal. I exported back to quicktime mp4 and it looks good, but it still doesn't feel quite right maybe my pc.
I tried a smaller export at 1024x576 which played back better, but still not sure about the image. I exported to a dvd vob file which is smoother but sharpness is lost. Maybe the sx1 camera or maybe me,
i'm not really sure. i have seen no smooth moving camera samples on vimeo from any sx1 though.
Smooth playback is the most important thing for me. i can live with less resolution for now but even slightly choppy footage will kill it.
That's what got me interested in the tz7 after testing the LX3 which had a lot of strobe.
I saw MICK JONES shots and was impressed with what he did with it. nice work and post.
The GH1is great but i think i want to pick up the fz38/35 and shoot a ton of test material and wait for the next GH1 in 6 months or so. The cameras are coming out so quick now. Even next month arrives the GF1.
My question is how good is this 50p / 25p out feature? Is it worth it to get one of theses ccd models? Any links to uncorrected samples you have seen
thanks

[ROCKMORE]

In vegas project and timeline settings are the same. They should be set to 25p. Good luck!

Hey dmoreno do you know Bruce Barham in Costa Rica? Old friend from NYC

[dmoreno]

Hi Rockmore. I don't! What does he do around here?

[ROCKMORE]

Bruce Owns American Production Services. been there for 20 years and every place else in Central and South America since around 1980 I shot a Sprite spot with him there in 1999. He's a great guy and has lots of camera grip and lighting rentals.

[dmoreno]

Is his company located in San Jose? I might be interested in finding out his rental rates!

[ROCKMORE]

He is in San Jose. It's been a while so I'm not sure if he's in the same location. I will try to find his email for you. He's got a few grip & lighting trucks, HMIs etc. San Jose's not very big so he should be easy to find. He also has a location in Miami so goes back and forth.
Mike Rockmore

[dmoreno]

PM his email if you find it!! Thanks
Daniel

[ROCKMORE]

PM his email if you find it!! Thanks
Daniel

Daniel,
I finally heard back from Bruce and it seems he sold his grip truck and moved back to Miami 2 years ago. Here's his email address. Maybe he can tell you who has the grip business now.
"Bruce Barham" <amerprosvs@bellsouth.net>,