Bad idea to convert to XDCAM format?

[ratatosk]

Hi all

I use my GH1 (a little marvel of a camera, isn't it?) with FCP and use "log and transfer" to import the files.

However, the files are getting huge, as you already know. Compared to the footage from my Sony EX3, the files were almost 4 times as big.

So I came up with the brilliant? idea of converting the files that FCP log and transfer made to XDCAM EX 720 50P format.

As far as I can see, it works beautifully. When I toss the files on a regular EX timeline they adapt nicely and I keep the 50 frames per second.

Before I try to get someone to write an applescript for me to automatize the workflow, I just thought I should ask if any of you experienced shooters see any flaws with this way of saving valuable hard disk space.

TIA

[Martti Ekstrand]

If it looks good to you it's good. And if it fits in your workflow then it's even better, sounds like you can work with both GH1 and EX3 footage in the same timeline without hassles this way. Just so you don't paint yourself into a corner try some colour corrections from soft to harsh and see how it holds up.

But one thing; do you first convert to ProRes and from that go to XDCAM? If so I may have a one step alternative.

Since I've only been playing around so far I've used Toast 10 to convert my footage to Apple Intermediate Codec. Toast is relatively fast, all installed QT codecs are available and I can output 720/50p footage at 25 fps (PAL) thereby skipping every second frame which immediately cuts file sizes in half. The few shots I've wanted to use slow-motion on I've simply gone back and re-converted at 50 fps. Just as in FCP Log&Transfer it's possible to select sections of the .mts file for conversion which also keeps down file sizes. The one thing I don't think it does is pulldown removal on 1080/24p NTSC files.

This method may work for you as well, I haven't tried the XDCAM codec. Toast also includes a video player that plays back the .mts files natively without errors unlike VLC. Very handy for quick looks and finding clips.

[ratatosk]

Yes, I do it in two steps, and there is a hassle with the quicktime conversion. Unless I uncheck the aperture parameter under the "presentation" tab in properties I get a cropped image. The option "clean" (obegripligt nog översatt till "barnvänlig" på svenska) is default, and with it checked you don't get the full 1280x720, but rather 1248x704.

When choosing the EXCAM codec from within Quicktime player it seems that it strips the file of every other frame in the 25P mode since the filesize only gets half of the 50P mode.

I think Toast might be a good way to go. I looked for a demo version, but there doesn't seem to be any. Thanks for the input.


/Göran

P.S. This reconverting that you do, that means that you keep your .mts files?

[Martti Ekstrand]

Unless I uncheck the aperture parameter under the "presentation" tab in properties I get a cropped image. The option "clean" (obegripligt nog översatt till "barnvänlig" på svenska) is default, and with it checked you don't get the full 1280x720, but rather 1248x704.
Hahaha, I didn't know, I run my system and apps in english. There are too many oddities in the swedish translations of pro apps like Photoshop and Illustrator plus all good info out on the net is in english anyway.

I think that crop is just a metatag, it should be possible to change it in QuickTime Player 'Show Movie Properties' or whatever it's called in swedish.


When choosing the EXCAM codec from within Quicktime player it seems that it strips the file of every other frame in the 25P mode since the filesize only gets half of the 50P mode.
You should be able to change the fps with 'Options' > 'Settings' when chosing 'Export' > 'Movie to Quicktime Movie'. Toast brings up the same panel and that's where I chose between 50 and 25 fps.


I think Toast might be a good way to go. I looked for a demo version, but there doesn't seem to be any.
Indeed there doesn't seem to be one but they give a clear walkthrough of the process here, click 'Converting Video' on the right. http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/titanium/overview.html


This reconverting that you do, that means that you keep your .mts files?

Yup, or maybe not all my silly tests I've been doing, but since the .mts files are comparatively small I see no reason to thrash them so they stay on the harddrive. A WD 1TB Studio Edition w FW800/eSATA is just SEK 1500:- now and I fill up like 3-4 of those in a year for my daytime job backups anyway. Who knows, maybe somebody comes up with a superduper-converter-interpolates-into-64bit-space-colour-correct-like-crazy in the future.

[ratatosk]

Thanks for the advice on Toast 10. I had my doubts, but it turned out to work flawlessly. And since it uses the usual Quicktime stuff there's no quality difference at all compared to my previous and much more cumbersome workflow.

Just thinking, would it be smart to save the .mts files on virtual .dmg-discs in order to make it easier to recapture a project if needed later? That way the paths wouldn't be messed up.

Or am I just making problems where there aren't supposed to be any.

But again, thanks for the tip.

[Martti Ekstrand]

As long as you keep all the content in the 'PRIVATE' folder unchanged you can open it in Log & Transfer, you don't have to make a .dmg of it but maybe that compresses it a little. Since the .mts files already are compressed it usually don't make that much of a difference. The rest of the files in 'PRIVATE' are pretty small already. You could try making a .zip and see if there's any difference.

One more little tip then now you got Toast, chose any .mts file in Finder, open the Info window (Get Info) and set the Toast Video Player as default for opening all .mts files and all you have to do is double-click for a quick playback. It looks better than VLC for AVCHD with no macro-block errors and I've only seen it skip frames a few times but then something else was running in the background.

Guess I should have said earlier that my only gripe with Toast is the lack of presets - one has to manually set up everything when launching the app but at least it keeps the setting until quitting.

[Finster]

One more little tip then now you got Toast, chose any .mts file in Finder, open the Info window (Get Info) and set the Toast Video Player as default for opening all .mts files and all you have to do is double-click for a quick playback. It looks better than VLC for AVCHD with no macro-block errors and I've only seen it skip frames a few times but then something else was running in the background.

I just purchased Toast 10 Titanium. I'm not seeing the Toast Video Player? In my Toast application folder I see ...

CD Spin Doctor
Disc Cover 2 RE
DiscCatalogMaker RE
Get Backup 2 RE
Mac2TiVo
Streamer
Toast Titanium

I'd love to be able to view my .mts files within the Finder. That would be so cool!

[Martti Ekstrand]

It did show up as a option to open .mts files in the Info panel for me so I set it as default. For some reason it's placed within the Toast 10 package, possibly to enable the preview when converting - right or ctrl-click on Toast Titanium, choose 'Show Package Contents' and you find it in 'Contents' > 'Resources'. DO NOT move it from there but make an alias and place that in the Toast folder or just drag it straight to the dock.

[Ben_B]

Well, Pro Res is 10 bit and is a full raster codec....I think it handles color correction and other stuff better. I've had films that I've edited in DVCPRO HD and then converted to Pro Res to do color correction and it worked better. Worked a bit with XDCAM workflow but not as an editor, just doing footage logging and tech support.

[Finster]

It did show up as a option to open .mts files in the Info panel for me so I set it as default. For some reason it's placed within the Toast 10 package, possibly to enable the preview when converting - right or ctrl-click on Toast Titanium, choose 'Show Package Contents' and you find it in 'Contents' > 'Resources'. DO NOT move it from there but make an alias and place that in the Toast folder or just drag it straight to the dock.

Ahhhh, there it is! Thanks Martti.

[ratatosk]

Thanks for the input Ben. I believe you are right about ProRes holding up better.

But I'm reevaluating this now. Since it now seems to be fully possible to keep the archive in AVCHD through a Toast workflow, there is really no need to save files in XDCAM format, is there?

Actually, all this is great news. I can store 1 hour on only 8 Gb, raw quality (so to speak).

I will look over my workflow again today (especially since it's one of those swedish rainy summer days).

[Martti Ekstrand]

The absolutely best quality codec to convert GH1 footage too I've seen so far is Cineform and I would probably use it if I'd do something serious and intended for HD distribution or even a film print. Cineform's file sizes are roughly the same as AIC and it looks better under colour correction than ProRes. But it lacks real-time support in FCP so for my testing I've stayed with AIC to keep the pace high. Once rendering out to h.264 for vimeo / YouTube the differences between AIC / ProRes / Cineform simply vanishes...

However, unless the NeoScene app gets a real overhaul (it's GUI bugs are frustrating), I'd probably use Toast to convert to Cineform. What I do hope is that MPEG Streamclip will get AVCHD/.mts support as that's the best video converter on OSX - period! That would seriously make me happy.

[Rab]

My editor has been trying to convert 1080 footage in toast 10 to prores, and it seems to be jumping frames and really 'jittery'
could someone offer ideas..
toast seems to see the footage as 1080, 25p should he somehow be treating it as 50i and deinterlacing once its in FCP?
should he use the add button and direct it to the whole 'private' folder?

I'm really getting nervous that this 1080 footage is unusable (although it looks acceptable when viewed on camera's lcd).

any advice gratefully recieved..