DIY micro35 kit (New Footage!)

[redrock]

Well I think I've got a sellable mini35 kit for those guys who don't want to go through the pain of making them.

I'm still having a problem with the small blue hallo or highlights around the very edges of the frame. Does anyone have an idea of what PCX/DCX would be good to stop this?

http://www.sunrushmusic.com/mini35_rack2.wmv

[TC]

1. That looked BEAUTIFUL.
2. That file is WAY too big, compress it my friend.
3. How much are we talkin here?
4. I've always wondered this of mini 35 users, what do you do about a mattebox?

[redrock]

Check it out.

http://www.sunrushmusic.com/1.jpg
http://www.sunrushmusic.com/2.jpg

I've got some new footage with this lens and setup. I'll post it soon! (I'll compress it better!)

[Mike_Donis]

That looked very nice - the footage was a little soft though - but it was a nice shot *:D



edit*

After seeing the set-up, I just about went nuts. Hell, even if this did NOTHING to the footage, it would be worth some money to have your rig look like THAT :o ;D

[redrock]

Thanks.

The new footage looks much better because of the small distance I'd added between the camera and the dcx lens and because of the nicer SLR lens.

[Barry_Green]

Obviously this is a spinning-ground-glass solution? Looks promising. What's the asking price?

[redrock]

It's a spinner. Using semi-transparent 'etched' looking vinyl. No sanding or grinding.

Don't have a price yet. There's really not much in it so it should be cheap. Once I resolve the small halo around the edges, I'll post a price. I've got to figure out if it's coming from the DCX or the Diopter. There's also a chance that I'm not zoomed in far enough to the right frame size. This may eliminate the problematic edges...

Here's some caps from the older setup (a little out of focus (Manual focus via lcd)):

http://www.sunrushmusic.com/mini35_cap1.jpg
http://www.sunrushmusic.com/mini35_cap2.jpg
http://www.sunrushmusic.com/mini35_rack.wmv

[TC]

This looks promising. Please keep us posted on this!

[Terry_Lasater]

Wow, this thread is giving me deja vu. I know I've seen it before...

Did we mention it 'looks promising'? *;D

[Shane Realm]

impressive

[TC]

Damn it Terry! I'm trying to blindly get my hopes up. DONT RUIN THAT!!

[charles]

I'm assuming this will work with any decent dv camera? If so, I'm interested. Definately keep us posted.

[redrock]

Yes, will work on any dv camera...

And yes, the thread has been here before, but now it's time to take it to the next level... Everyone's been talking about this for a long time. Now it's time for us design engineers to push it on through!

Stay tuned.

[Terry_Lasater]

I'm glad to hear it... and see it! :D

[Barry_Green]

Having used the mini35, I am quite interested (there's that word again) in seeing what you come up with, and the final price of course.

I do hope you find a high-quality ground glass solution. I have been completely unimpressed with the scratched-plastic CD's that others have used on other homemade adapters. The only problem with the mini35 (if you can call it a problem, that is) is that it definitely lowers resolution substantially, so I'd hope to have the option of the highest-quality ground glass solution possible.

With that said, if it works, it works, so let's see the finished version! ;D

[TC]

What's a good resourse for buying 35mm lenses online?

[theos]

wow what happened over the weekend. The footage is nice and the setup looks awesome. I can unsderstand the problem with the soft footage as I just got that same sigma lens (I think for my D70) and boy *. . . it is a beauty, it is a 70mm to 200mm at 2.8 all the way! The one thing is that the DOF does get shallower & *shallower so picking focous on particular spots in frame starts to become tricky for a quick setups I would imagine it starts to call for more planning and composition.

[astroanalyst]

I'm all amped up about an inexpensive mini 35 solution.. keep me posted paul@kameon.com

[redrock]

While our attourneys check for any potential patent problems, I've got a couple of questions for you guys that have built or used a DIY mini35.

1. Why do think your version wasn't successful?
2. And what would it take for to believe it would be successful enough to use?

Thanks for the feedback!

[dolby]

Has anyone seen or made this?

Homemade mini35 from a CD and old CD player. http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dof/index.htm


dolby

[redrock]

That's basically the same thing I've show above.

I'm currently changing up the spinning design to an oscillating design which will take up less space. I'm also finishing up the errecting functionality which will be handled inside the device.

[disjecta]

Is there a reason why the main centerpiece between the camera and the external lens is so big? From the looks of the photo, it could be a lot smaller and more streamline.

I'm totally ignorant about this so I'm sure there is a good reason for its size.

[taubkin]

It accomodates a spinning disk that serves as a ground glass. Since it's spinning, ll minor imperfections of the surface will translate into a diffuse softness on the image, so they don't appear visible as they are over your image. He just said he's trying to change the design so the box can be smaller.

I have a question: Do you record the image upside down?

[redrock]

The design above does record the image upside down. The next revision will include image errecting mechanisms.

Taubkin is correct, there's a clear CD spinning inside of the box. The new design incorporates a much smaller device that oscillates rather than spins.

We're very excited about the results so far!

[amoildani]

just curious, no need to be rushing or impatient, but by when do you think you'll have a near-to/finished product with an estimated price? again, no rush, just curious!
Just wanna know if I should keep hitting refresh on this post :)
I'm excited!

[Hayden_Rivers]

I really liked the footage. I'm definetly excited to see more footage (hint, hint) and what improvements you've made on your device.

[redrock]

I should have some new footage up in a week or so. I should be wrapping up a doc this week. Plus my Magiqcam just arrived and I'll be testing my setup on that as well..

Thanks for the interest! Much more to come!

[GenJerDan]

Yeah...what's all this spinning nonsense? Go down to the local sex shop, buy a vibrator, and glue it to the ground glass/brushed CD/whatever you're using.

Dan

[Shaw]

Hows this project coming along btw?

[Guest]

First of all I checked out your pictures and I'm real impressed how you were able to used common parts to make a very well put together mini35. Great work!

Secondly the softness issue mentioned about the mini35 adapters can be greatly improved apon when you step up to larger GG. I personally decided to change mine and make it a medium format oscillating mini35 for this and many other reasons. Nearly no rez loss, all and sometimes better DOF, brighter in low light and no need for costly achromat diopters. If the the blue fringing is coming from your diopter then this could be one solution for you. You might want to look into this idea as you finalize your design and get it ready to sell. Good luck!

[j]

I'm kinda curious about the support rods and base plate. Are those purchased, or home built?

-j

[redrock]

The rods and base are were made by me. The rods were off the shelf and cut down to size. Then threaded. The base was cutout and tapped for the rod threads. The problem with that setup was the rods were always the same length and they were solid alumunim because they needed to be threaded. The new setup allows you to slide the rods out and tighten them down from the base plate. Much lighter.

Brett,
Could you elaborate a bit more on your design? The blue fringing is still a problem and I'd hate to throw money (expensive diopters) at it... Just means a higher selling price :(.

The new Magiqcam is sooo whip ass! I was so amazed at the results right out of the freak'n box!!! I'll probably start a new thread here or over at dvinfo with all the results.
And it works great with the micro35 kit!

[speedbump]

The rig looks slick. The edges are just too soft for my purposes... maybe with a little more experimentation you'll solve that problem. Looks like a promising project, however. Good luck!

[araujofh]

This seems promising, but I think the footage is a bit soft.
It looks really great, but the softness puts me off.

We'll see more tests and probably it may be a solution to what we have been looking for.

[JasonFox]

Hey, it's been 10 days since the last post. What's the scoop of the day?

[Guest]

Yeh, no kidding. I've been crapping my pants waiting for this to be available...

[Unix]

Cool as heck
don't have to order from Germany anymore!!!!!
or Birns and Sawyer (rip offs)

so please how much is it?
does it include the rods?
is it compatible with Zeis lenses?
how, where can I preorder?

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaasssssssss eeee

[Guest]

I'm seriously dying here waiting for you to sell these things haha... I'm ready to pay you whatever so please let us know how the progress is going...

[goober542]

Are there options for mounting anamorphics to this set up. I have never worked with 35mm lenses but I am sure there are som at least some form of 35mm anamorphic.

I am supposing this is a Barry question as well.

Thanks, Ryan

[rpster]

i've been working on a similar project as well.
i did make a few changes though.
i was able to find a pentaprism, mirror, and high precision ground glass (1500 grit non-sand blasted)
the use of a pentaprism and mirror? usually, 35mm lenses project a reversed upside-down image onto the focal plane.
using a mirror in conjunction with a pentaprism, the image is flipped and rotated for the dv cam. exactly what the mini35 does.
i haven't started building this yet since i don't have the funds, but i do have all the plans laid out. it should cost around $500.
optics were found at http://www.thorlabs.com
parts to be machined at http://www.emachineshop.com
bearings and 15mm rods at http://www.mcmaster.com

[BLUESPIDER]

rpster,
I'm sure plenty of people will fund you if you build them one as well. Thanks for the info.

[Brett_Erskine]

Rpster-
Are you making a static or oscillated GG adapter? If its a oscillating adapter can you give me a direct link to the model of offset rod your going to use?

P.S. About the pentaprism. You wont be able to use one out of a 35mm SLR because their exit face is too small. You will have to either get a much larger pentaprism (good luck/$$$) or use the different style prisms (2) that the P+S Technik uses. Let me know about the link.

Brett Erskine

[Bill__Turner]

Given that I am in the Optics business and have been for 40 years, I find this thread and similar ones interesting. It is relatively easy to make something that sorta works, much harder to make something that will be acceptable to customers.

A prism erecting system introduces a whole new set of problems that will not be easily or inexpensively solved.

I think the best bet is to make a system that records upside down, use a small monitor (upside down) during production and flip the image in post if you want to make something inexpensive that has a chance of having the necessary optical quality.

Having said all that, good luck and I will follow the thread with interest.

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics

[rpster]

im not sure if this has been done before, but i would actually classify my ground glass as rotating, but on its center point. im using an ultra-thin precision ball bearing and mounting the ground glass into the bore. then rotating the ground glass by use of a collar and pulley. my design can easily be converted to oscillating version by simply reducing the diameter of the ground glass. its one hell of a ball bearing to use, but boy it's silent.

as for the penta prism idea, once i get this thing built, ill get back to you guys on it.

being the job-less high school student that i am, im going to use old minolta md lenses. for the sole reason that i already have a minolta x-700, and the plethora of cheap(but somewhat good) lenses availible on ebay.

[BLUESPIDER]

rpster


Keep up posted and hook it up with some screen shots of your design. peace

[rpster]

here are some paper mock-ups of my design
computer models are great, but the physical mock-ups are better. the minidv tape is there for reference.

front
http://www.concordhighbands.com/rp's%20stuff/mini35mockup1.jpg

rear
http://www.concordhighbands.com/rp's%20stuff/mini35mockup2.jpg

you can see how dinky my design is compared to the usual cdr design. the reason for the small 37mm mount at the back is because i have a canon optura 10, but you can easily hook up a dvx100 using a stepdown ring or two.

[Brett_Erskine]

It looks like a solid SLR design concept. I can tell by the shape that your thinking about using a pentaprism/mirror combo. While this obviously will work fine for 35mm cameras it may not work for your video camera. I alraedy went down this road and despite all my efforts I wasnt able to zoom in close enough with my video camera to look thru the eye piece end of the pentaprism. Its extremely tiny. But then again I was using a DVX. Perhaps your camera will be able to. I recomend you test this issue out before you put too much money and time into this design. If it doesnt work check out the prisms used in the P+S Technik for a alternative solution or simply flip in post. Good luck.

[rpster]

I already ran some tests with close-up lenses (tiffen +7 +10) and they achieve the close focusing needed (about 22 cm focal distance from the 37mm mount to the ground glass).

The pentaprism is not from an slr, it will be purchased from http://www.thorlabs.com *;D
it will be pretty massive, but it provides a 38x38mm square apreture (large enough for the 36x24mm still image projection)

[Bill__Turner]

Ripster,

On the off chance you have over looked the fact:

Penta Prisms do nothing to the image except deviate 90 degrees. I believe you will find that the Penta Prism used in a 35mm SLR is a roof type which is different than the standard Penta Prism in the catalog you list.

Most SLR's these days use mirrors arranged to mimick the result of a roof penta because it is much cheaper in massproduction. I assume from the layout that you intend to use a mirror at 45 degrees (like the mirror in an SLR) to bounce the light up into the Penta Prism.

Without a roof the resulting image (in the camera)will be right side up but reversed left to right , I think you will find. Adding a roof to the prism is a big deal as it needs to be VERY accurate to avoid a double image - far more accurate than the finder system of an SLR that is just used for viewing by the eye.

Once again, good luck

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics

[HansK]

Penta Prisms do nothing to the image except deviate 90 degrees.

Here's the design I have been playing with which sounds just like the design being discussed here. Do you believe this won't work?

http://www.zoomforce.com/dvxuser/photos/images//320144142.jpg

[Bill__Turner]

Yes, if you read my post, the image will be reversed left to right (like looking into a mirror) lettering will read backwards etc---but it will be right side up in your video camera. I do not see the image plane location for camera lens (and the ground glass focusing screen but assume it either right before or right after the 45 degree mirror).

I believe another potential problem is trying to get the proper magnification of the 35mm SLR image at the working distance dictated by the prism's long (4x the aperature? not positive from memory) optical path length.

I am not trying to discourage anyone or be a party pooper, this is a difficult problem to overcome properly, especially when you add the problem of inverting and reverting the image so that it is recorded in the correct orientation.

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics

[rpster]

the type b prism here http://www.plxinc.com/pages/hollow-penta-mirrors.php is the one you are probably talking about.

[Bill__Turner]

Ripster, you are correct, if you are making an erecting system using a 45 degree mirror and a penta prism(or a mirror box equivalent), you need a roof type which is type b on the site you referenced.

Just as a note, you probably need at least a 5 second accuracy on the 90 degree roof to insure good images.

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics

[rpster]

I just realized something.
If i put a roof prism in place of the mirror, then just use a regular pentaprism, the image will be perfect!

[Brett_Erskine]

Keep in mind as you work thru this problem that there is a way you can "trick" your DVX LCD monitor to display the image correctly by doing both:

1)Select "mirror" image in the DVX menu and...
2)Place small magnet next to LCD pivot point.

The magnet triggers the camera into thinking that the whole camera is upside down when it fact it isnt. The resulting image is corrected perfectly, up and down AND side to side.

Personally I've given up on fliping the image optically for this reason and so many others ($$$, weight, size, quality, complex) but at the same time if you have hopes to sell your adapter you'll most likely need to figure out a way to do it so you can offer a complete solution.

Bill-
Hows the optical quality difference between a roof pentaprism and one made of mirrors? How about cost and size differences for one off pieces?

Thanks

[HansK]

Here's another variation on the previous design. Any thoughts on using the ground glass surface as the mirror? Or, would this be a problem for the focusing?

http://www.zoomforce.com/dvxuser/photos/images//321100243.jpg

Thanks!

[rpster]

Definetly problems with focusing, the focal plane has to be parallel to the lens or else focusing problems will ensue!

so far, i've found alot of roof prisms, but most arent the right size. a roof prism from a telescope eyepiece has a big enough apreture as well as a high enough quality (<5 arc sec. deviation) for this project (cost is about $200)
so that will kick it up to almost $700

the price breaks down as follows:
$180 - Machined Body
$60 - Pentaprism
$200 - Roofprism
$30 - Diopters
$200 - Hardware (bearing, rods, etc, motor)

keep in mind that this option is extremely similar to what the mini35 does, and far more complex than the blank cdr design.
id pull that little trick brett talked about IF i had a dvx100 and save a ton of money.

[BLUESPIDER]

geez, I hear all this talk, I want to see a complete one for once. Too much talk guys. I know it takes time but its been a week. :)

[Shaw]

You should check out the threads at DVi then ;) A month is nothing compared with those threads!

[HansK]

Definetly problems with focusing, the focal plane has to be parallel to the lens or else focusing problems will ensue!

Yup, that's what I figured. Oh well.

i've found alot of roof prisms

A roof prism will flip the image but it also redirects the light path 180 deg, back towards the direction it came. How would the roof prism be used, for example in the design above, so that the light path would continue in the same direction? By direction, I mean from left (the source) to right (the camera) in the diagram.

[HansK]

Hah, I just found this site:

http://www.dvdof.com/

Deja vu! :D

[rpster]

Thats pretty cool stuff, but its just the blank cd design all over again.

Probably the main reason there's so much talk is the fact that i pretty much have no cash to start building this all. *

Hans: You might be thinking of a retroreflector (180 deg. deviation). A roof prism does a 90 deg. deviation.
The roof prism would take place of the mirror set at 45 degrees. It would reverse (correct left to right) the image and deviate it 90 degrees toward the pentaprism which would deviate it another 90 degrees to the camera. slr designs have an all in one penta roof prism(see earlier post).

those guys at DVi have decided not to use pentaprisms and the like to correct the image and are sticking with the cd design for the most part (though some have opted for a vibrating design)
for the sake of not sifting through 80 pages of posts, why are they using fresnel lenses???

[HansK]

Thats pretty cool stuff, but its just the blank cd design all over again.

Dig further and check out the links. For example, the "Blind Cat Films" site.

why are they using fresnel lenses???

To reduce the image to fit the roof pentaprism? It looks like it's hard or expensive to find a roof pentaprism large enough for the images.

[edit] I just read this info posted by Brett E:

Actually the fresnel is used in the 35mm adapters for the same purpose as its used in a 35mm SLR: To reduce the hot spot effect on the GG.

[Bill__Turner]

Barry, as you know the only way the Mini35 works is by forming an image on the gg that is re-imaged by the video camera. If you used an aerial image system (no ground glass) you could improve the sharpness but loose the depth of field of the 35mm image and wind up right back where you started with the same depth of field as the MiniDv Camera alone at the same FOV.

As the ground glass or what ever medium is used to form the image becomes increasingly fine, it starts to become transparent and prone to hot spotting and even vignetting as the system more and more approaches an aerial image situation.

In my experience, there is never anyway to get a sharper image using complex relays etc than the original camera recording with a quality lens directly. The additional optics invarilably degrade the image quality.

Quality, well engineered devices like the Mini35 give you the "look" but the image is not as good in terms of resolution and contrast as the camera alone-- which does not mean that it is not good enough, or that the benefits of the shallow depth of field etc may not outweigh some loss of resolution and contrast, it is a trade-off and a choice.

My experience with professionals tells me that one must never confuse making a video that looks film-like with making a video to be transferred to film--they are different things and many times require different techniques and choices.

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics

[mickeloaf]

I have been thinking that the DIY Mini35 could come in useful for a few specific functional needs.

For example, I have a scene planned where someone is running down a long hall during a dream sequence. The effect I am after is a for a focus to follow the individual as he goes down the long hall, forground and background focus changes as he moves away from the camera.

For this scene, i desire some tunneling and vignetting, and slight loss of contract and light, so the Mini35 I believe might give me a unique surreal look.

I don't think the home made mini35's as they exist today would be good enough for a full length feature, but it could be a tool that may provide some "special effects" type scenes..

[redrock]

Sorry guys! I've gotten carried away getting my machine shop put together! I should be able to knock these out pretty quick. (With the rails and base if your interested).

I plan on taking some time this week to post some more footage.

[Shaw]

You have a price yet? And are these oscillating adapters?

[redrock]

I'm going to offer the spinners first. I got a lathe and have been perfecting the offset shafts. I've actually been practicing my metal shop by building a 24' jib/crane with pan/tilt... Modeling it all first then building to the specs...

should turn out well!

[rpster]

hey redrock, does your design have high precision ground glass or the transparent cd?

[redrock]

Right now it's just a clear cd with my "special" coating. When my oscillating design is complete, I'll use something similar.

I just finished putting together a video of tests. I'll post the link in a few minutes.

[redrock]

Okay,
I took a few minutes this evening to throw this together. Sorry it took so long!

http://www.sunrushmusic.com/micro35/micro35test.htm

[Slimothy]

how much? :D

[Guest]

I would also like to know how much and also if it would work with another camera besides the dvx

[redrock]

I'll get a price posted this week. I've got to track down one more part!

Yes, it wil work on any video camera that can support a macro mode or use a screw on achromat.

[BLUESPIDER]

wow, looks good. Will I be able to get a cousin discount? You know we cousins n all. right? ;D ;)

[Unix]

Given that I am in the Optics business and have been for 400 years and always will be.
how about I use two tetraprizms and one giga-hexaprizm
and a shoe box and some PVC rods


Red Rocker please keep us posted on YOUR work

that footage is dope,
I saw that lil' wal-mart drum set
and also when u turn the ground glass on again I can se some motion like on the wall.....
maybe it's just me

Micro35 is a good name so u don't have any problems with PS Technik

so please keep us posted

[redrock]

Thanks Unix,
I think the motion on the wall was from the cd not up to full RPM...

[Joe94]

What are you using for a macro lens?

[NickMilo]

Redrock,
The footage looks amazing.
The close-up of the little girl looked real good. You should Post a vid once you get the new diopters set up. I'm not an optics master, but I though the rotating glass looked just fine.

...Hey Bill, what do you think?

[Taylor Moore]

Redrock is your setup working on a 100 or 100a...
I have a 100 and would really like to get this system :)

Great work.

[Bill__Turner]

Nick Milo posted:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redrock,
The footage looks amazing.
The close-up of the little girl looked real good. You should Post a vid once you get the new diopters set up. I'm not an optics master, but I though the rotating glass looked just fine.

...Hey Bill, what do you think?

Assuming I am the Bill in question: Clearly the shallow depth of field is acheived. Whether the quality is sufficient, I cannot tell from what I see on my computer screen.

As I said previously (probably earlier in this thread), my OPINION is that a simple form such as this, with and upside down image that you deal with in post has the best chance of decent quality at relatively low cost.

I do think that the longer focal length lenses used for the demo are not necessarily what one would use in telling a story , except for a special shot. I also believe and have said before that shooting video to look like film, is different than shooting video to transfer to film. I would be concerned about giving up image quality (resolution and contrast) in exchange for shallow DOF if I knew the end product was a 35mm release print.

These are my opinions based on experience and interaction with those who have done MiniDV to film transfers and tests, but hopefully some will comment. I think that when this device is available for testing under real world conditions to do real narrative work, then you will know more. I am sure there are many on this board qualified to put it thru its paces.

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics

[HansK]

I also believe and have said before that shooting video to look like film, is different than shooting video to transfer to film. I would be concerned about giving up image quality (resolution and contrast) in exchange for shallow DOF if I knew the end product was a 35mm release print.

That's a very good point. I haven't heard it addressed before.

[redrock]

Thanks for the comments guys!

Great points Bill. I think anyone that would be using these adapters, especially DIY adapters, won't be heading to a filmout. Although, I've got no doubt that I'll acheive the same resolution and contrast as the Mini35. I'm betting that a good diopter will allow me to concentrate more on the image quality. Right now, the video looks amazing on my calibrated sony video monitor.

Hey Bill, I've emailed you a few more questions. (Jamey)

Thanks again guys!!!

[BLUESPIDER]

redrock- can I see some of your latest clips with you redrock35? thanks.

[redrock]

The post above is the only footage I have online right now. Maybe I'll get some outdoor stuff this weekend.

One thing to note from the conversation and footage above, I was only using two 40 watt lights.... Maybe I can break out the two 1ks and the 650 for some testing...

EDIT: I like the name, 'Redrock35'. Sweet.

[Guest]

The issue of loss of clarity when using a Mini35 device can be made a non issue if you switch to medium format lenses and GG. At 4+ times the images size any imperfection the Mini35 has should become unnoticeable and ready for a quality film out. Also the larger GG negates the use of diopters (their costs and quality issues) and shorter focal lengths can be used on the DVX lens which translates to the ability to open the DVX lens to a wider stop thus the image is brighter as well.

Mini645

Brett Erskine
www.CinematographerReels.com

[redrock]

Brett,
I've heard you discuss this before. Do you have any sample footage or pics?

[mastermind]

that was hillarious unix.

I saw a short film from some guys in germany who made a mini35 with a minolta camera and 2 boards on nailed to each other at a 90deg. angle. the camera is on the horizontal plane and they had a gl2 pointing down to the camera at a vertical angle. they then used blackwrap to cover the space b/w both cams. not the prettiest of setups but the footage was awesome. I have the link somewhere at home and i'll try to find it for you guys.

[disjecta]

The movie you are talking about can be seen at the following Website:

http://www.marlathemovie.com

[JasonFox]

Great, I finally manage to get a DVX (as in today) and now I have to buy one of these! ;D

Footage looks great.

Fox

[rpster]

From the sample video that you've shown us (which by the way looks great ;D), it seems that only canon ef mount lenses are supported. will other mounts be availible? i.e. nikon, maxxum, arri PL (if you even have the money to rent or buy PL lenses)
it would be nice to use different lenses on a great system.

[Guest]

I'll try and get some frame grabs out of my adapter and post them soon but its not finished yet. Im having a real problem finding the correct set of PCX lenses to colminate the light to its new focal length. I cant tell you how many times I've had to put this back on the shelf. But from what we already know from photography all the concepts I talked about should ring true (ie. 1-Larger GG and image sharper and less grainy it appears 2-Shorter focal lengths on the DVX allow for wider apertures 3-Larger image means no need for a diopter, etc.) There are draw backs of course. Medium format lenses are more expensive, the adapter will be larger than a static adapter (but not as large as a rotating "CD" style adapter). Finally medium format lenses generally arent as fast as 35mm lens. Expect minimum f/stops of around f/2.8. But since DOF is shallower on medium format lenses then 35mm you still can get that f/1.4 35mm look out of a f/2.8 medium format lens.

[goerik]

Hi Redrock,
Very nice package.., do you know any price range yet.. ?
And final question, on your webpage you mention trying to fly the camera on your Magiqcam Rig, so.. did it work ?

Regards, Erik

[redrock]

Thanks again for the comments guys!

rpster:
I'm looking for a source on some professtional mounts for the lenses you've mentioned. I plan on supporting all of them.

goerik:
I'm finishing up my oscillating design before pricing either unit. I've got several people beta testing the spinning design now.

[J.R. Hudson]

Been watching this one for awhile; keep us inthe LOOP redrock. Im game.

[crazymcnutjob]

Hmm.. it has been awhile, what's going on with this project redrock? I'm still psyched! ;D

[aanbalagan]

her redrock,
I'm waiting for some good news too! I'm game for this, your stuff looks amazing. Keep us notified

[Unix]

hey redrocker
do u have a price yet?

how about a follow focus system?

thanx

[Ernest_Acosta]

Hey Brett, I've followed your posts on the dvinfo forums. I am interested in seeing your adapter. Please keep me informed when you are done. Also Juan Pertiere who managed to get a 4.4.4 uncompressed image out of the dvx said it is very easy to invert the image from the main board in the dvx. I think a combination of a mini-35 with minimal loss of resolution, 35mm DOF and Juans mod will yield a very good image possibly good enough for a film transfer. I plan on shooting a feature (if the screenplay doesn't get optioned by April) and I would like to incorporate these tools with my DVX. Guys keep up the good work.

[Ernest_Acosta]

Redrock, I started building a crane last year never completed it. I'm using 6061T aircraft aluminum 1/8 thick, 4 4-foot pieces for a total length of 16 feet, not counting mount. I also started building a pan/tilt head using servo gears but also never finished. When you are done, I would love to see your design. Also are you using pnuematic tires on the dolly?

[Niebs]

what in the hay? where's the rock?

[wdl]

Hi all...Is this adapter good for Sony PD-150 and what is the price and when it will be available for purchase? (Heh, too many questions?) Thanks...

[goober542]

So what is everyone's take on this over the use of the anamorphic as far as for a film out. I have been driving myself nuts lately as to part with the ana or not. BTW I may have a brand new ana plus the guide for it for sell soon.

[Policar]

Mini35s are very very bad for film out. A home-made one (because the optics would be inferior) would be even worse.

With the anamorphic adapter, you gain a great deal of resolution. With the mini35, you lose a great deal.

[Shaw]

Not if you use a custom anamorphic adapter with your mini35 :D

You really don't loose any practical res (try shooting a res chart and see what I mean). The main problem is the softening of the footage and lack of contrast that can ensue.

[redrock]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay. I guess the 'notification' emails stop after a period of time. I've really been busy finishing the crane (~20ft). I've recently finished the pan/tilt using gears. Work great. I've got all the metal (Aluminium), I just need to finish putting it together. The wheels are (10'' PNEUMATIC SWIVEL CASTERS).

And on to the adapter. I'll make the spinners that match mine for $500 if anyone is interested. The image won't be flipped right-side-up and it won't come with a macro. So basically it will come in a box with a switch that spins the cd. If you want to send me a lens cap, I'll make you a mount out of it. To be quite honest the $500 is pretty much a labor expense...

Now, I'm making good progress on developing a more 'production' type device with a real mount, but it just takes time. I'm almost finished with my cnc/mill conversion, so having that machine ready to go will allow me to make more precise parts and a much nicer encloser. This version will come with a rod system as well. I'm also evaluating the prism path. It's looking very good. So you won't have to flip the image in post... I expect to sell this version for less than $1000.

One thing that's causing me time is finding a Achromat/Doublet that works well with the DVX so I can post some great footage. That stupid thing alone is holding me back!! (hint-hint Bill_Turner! Help a brother out!) Because any footage posted will be from a crappy 55mm Hoya doublet that has side distortion and chromatic aberration and I believe people will get that confused with the adapter's output quality.

So.. I've been focusing on battles I can win. Like a motorized pan/tilt.

Oh, by the way, I'd love to build a follow focus setup and probably will soon. (Now that I got the whole gear thing going..)

[Shaw]

How much light do you loose with your adapter? I'm not likely to buy one but I'm just curious :)

[redrock]

To be honest, I tried it without the adapter and then with the adapter and the fstops stayed the same. I did notice a change with different types of 35mm lenses though.

I plan on posting a more technical evaluation later... But light loss doesn't seem to be a problem.

[Shaw]

Hm, interesting. Some light loss must occur at the ground glass (CD in this case). I wonder where your system is making it up. Very interesting! I'd be surprised if you were getting less than a full stops loss of light at that point. Anyone actually measure how much light you loose from a CD?

[Taylor Moore]

Hey Redrock,
Thanx for the update...looking forward to seeing the production version and some output video.

Keep up the good work....

[redrock]

Hey guys,
Well, I've finally resolved my abberation problems with my macro. I ended up making my own. I bought enough parts to make many more as well. So overcoming this milestone allowed me to move on to completing the production grade micro35. I'll be releasing a guide on how to do it yourself. I'll also be selling the parts online for you guys that live in the sticks. And all you guys with two left hands, I'll assemble them for you as well. I promised myself I wouldn't post anymore "test looking" shots. So I'm finishing up some mock scenes to post using the adapter. I'm very happy with it and its size (3"x4") and the new rail setup.

For all you guys that emailed me and anyone interested, please check out www.micro35.com and get on the list! I'll have the new scenes up soon!

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions!

[Shaw]

Are you using a static GG now? And what exactly does signing up do? Info updates or is it a commitment to buy one?

:)

[redrock]

It just means you're "interested"....

[redrock]

Okay, here's some footage messing around today.

Let me know what you think!
15mb (Please save to your computer!)
www.micro35.com/micro35.wmv

[dakotapod]

Man, this is coming along nice. Looks great! I'm on the list!

Nice work red

[JasonFox]

Behold, I salivate.

[Barry_Green]

That is the FATTEST horse I have ever seen. Please tell me it's a pregnant mare or something like that...

And this footage looks really good! Can you post like 10 or 20 seconds as a raw DV .avi, so we can download it and play it back to our TV's/monitors to judge the effect of the perma-grain? .wmv and all other web compression algorithms mask grain like that, so it'd be nice to see it in its native state.

[redrock]

Thanks guys. It is a pretty fat horse...

I've watched it on my hi-res smpte-c monitor and don't notice any grain. I do see a very slight flicker because I forgot I was using my first rev gg (dogh!)... I'm going to be shooting a music video with it in the next few weeks, so I'll be excited to get it into a real production...

www.micro35.com/micro35.avi (78MB!!) (I hope I saved it right.. (24P)...

[mastermind]

liked the footage but I saw a weird jerkiness during the pan, was that due to an unstable pan or did it have something to do with the adapter. and did you use a star filter on there? the reflections of the pond were really beatiful.

[Slow_Eddie]

I noticed the flickering too. From what I gather from your posts you've corrected that problem?

Eddie

[wawacoffee1]

it looks far btter than the standard dvx lens, aside from the shallow depth of focus what other qualities does it offer the dvx look? the colours definitely seem brighter

[redrock]

The flicker was resolved long before I shot the footage. I just messed up and left the old one (GG) on. But after the hundreds of responses I've gotten so far (people wanting me to provide them assembled), I decided to look into something more "production" for a GG. Solution found (ended up being a higher resolution gg at a fraction of the original cost!). They're being made as I type this.

Any jerkyness during the pan was probably my gigantic bogen 3066. The adapter is free of vibration.

By the way, the post of the horse footage was NOT color corrected AT ALL. That is straight out of the DVX default F6.

[jaredalv]

How is the spinning CD powered? Does it draw much? Or did you go to a 'static' GG solution?

I signed up. Nice work.

[Taylor Moore]

Hey Redrock, any tricks up your sleeve on eliminating the lens pulsing during a rack focus?

[redrock]

Yeah! Get a better 35mm lens! That video (at least the big rack scene ;) ) was with a loose old canon lens, and not with the sigma...

I'm sure a follow focus would help too.

[smkoch]

This looks perfect for what I'm looking for, hopefully you'll have the system perfected around spring time.

[Shaw]

The pulsing you are refering to may be what is known as "breathing." This isn't an inherent problem with the adapter it's a problem with your lens. What happens is the focal length of your lens changes ever so slightly when you change the focus. This isn't noticed in still pictures but shows up dramatically in video. Since still lenses are not designed for video you may have to experiment to find lenses which do not have this problem. Generally speaking though a cheap lens will always have this whereas a high quality less has lens chance of a problem.

[Taylor Moore]

I imagine the pulsing/breathing could be resolved with renting a set of Arri primes ;D

...but what would be a 35mm still lense that minimizes this problem? I guess testing will be the only answer?

[Shaw]

Yeah, testing is the only thing I can think of. Each lens is different in that respect.

Wish I had a set of Arri primes!

EDIT: This is assuming that the problem you are seeing really is breathing. Is this the shot of the rack focus with the horse and the fence?

[Shaw]

The more I think about this the less like breathing your problem sounds to me. I think you're probably still seeing the effects of the old ground glass.

That said I just watched the footage again and there is slight breathing on the first rack focus (horse -> fence). Can't see any on the second.

[Barry_Green]

Wild speculation, but how likely is it that you'll find a still-camera lens that doesn't "breathe"? It seems like when designing a still-camera lens, the designers probably wouldn't care one fig about whether the lens breathes or not, because still-camera lenses are inherently designed to be used in single-shot circumstances, so breathing would never be apparent...

Not saying that there aren't still-camera lenses that don't breathe, but I can't imagine that being a design priority...

[JasonFox]

I was finally able to do a quick test of my adapter last night at it definitely breathes. I'm using a 50mm Canon FD f/1.8. I just bought it for testing as it was only 20 bucks. Of course, I still need better diopters which would let me zoom in a bit more. Which probably just exaggerates the breathing. Hmmmm. Oh well, the footage was exciting to me, if not very stylish. I have feeling that after al of this work I'll end up buying redrock's. :o

Fox

[FilmDingo]

Another question would be what lens to choose that could be adapted for a follow focus rig - redrock, maybe you could figure out a package with a Micro35, follow focus, mattebox (bet you could whip up a shade to go with a support system). you could build this around two lenses (super wide, tele) (maybe Sigma, they are easy to adapt, economical) that you could test and reccomend. A sort of "production package" for the serious user on a reasonable budget.

Then the only thing left would be a geared head that fits on a 75mm bowl tripod (a microWorral instead of miniWorral).

If we had similar production tools to some of the big boys, we could all really kick some ass. We are already so close with the DVX and NLE.

[redrock]

Sounds interesting... May need to get someone like Barry to help me out with a good lens selection. I could handle the fab work... I've already got a couple of Follow Focus mfgs calling...Although I'm kinda getting the bug to design one. Mattebox should be pretty simple..

[JasonFox]

Redrock -- you're mounting the 35mm lens by modifying a rear lens cap, correct? Have you tried/considered using the front half of a C-mount adapter instead? The adapter unscrews leaving the camera mounting ring and a metal lip on the back for mounting to the other half (if that makes any sense). I'm using it right now on my own adapter. Just thought it might be a little bit more secure than a lens cap. The one I'm using is here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=116732&is=REG

Just a thought.

Fox

[redrock]

I like it. But that mount costs more than all the materials for the whole micro35 adapter.

I'll have some details on that in the guide...

[JasonFox]

Oh really? Well, I hope you get your guide posted soon before I waste any more money on my efforts. :D

[Shaw]

I think a package would definitely be cool. I wouldn't want a lens included with it though.

Barry, good point. I've noticed that the breathing isn't as bad (or even noticable at some focal lengths) with high end still lenses. I don't know why this is. Surely it isn't an intentional thing as you point out!

Redrock, are you going to be adapting the adapter (heh) for each individual brand?

[redrock]

Hey Guys,
I've updated some information on the site. I'm trying to get emails sent out to everyone but I'm not having much luck with the number of address... I'll have this fixed soon!

Here's the update:
www.micro35.com/welcome2.htm

Also, here's a solid model of the unit:
www.micro35.com/pics/3d.jpg

Thanks!

[JasonFox]

Redrock -- got your email. Very exciting. Any idea when the kit will be available? If it's going to be a while I'll just get the guide, endure a long period of frustration, and then buy the kit. ;D

Also, if anyone wants to buy a ThorLab 52mm tube, a 50mm OptoSigma GG and PCLX lens, plus other miscellaneous parts for a static adapter, let me know.

Fox

[redrock]

Hey Jason,
I'm hoping the assembled units will be shipping in two to four weeks!

Thanks!

[JasonFox]

Oooooo, excellent. I'll probably just wait for a kit, then. Hopefully, someone on dvinfo.net will snag my static adapter parts.

Fox

[Shaw]

Redrock, does the pre-built kit come with built a rod system?

[goober542]

Does it have the macro as well in the kit. If not how much extra is it for the rods and macro?

[redrock]

The pre-assembled units will come with the Macro, Rods, and the new GG (and probably a different mount).

But I urge you to get the guide now so you can check it all out. I'll be discounting the $45 for the guide for anyone that purchases the guide and then decides to buy the kit or assembled units. Some people have asked how they'll get moved up in the line for assembled units. The people that purchase the guides first and then buy the assembly will get priority.

Also, just got back from the glass shop, the new GGs are awesome!

Thanks!!

[JasonFox]

How should I preorder the guide? Respond to sales@micro35.com?

And do the kits come with the rods, etc. as well or just the assembled version?

Fox

[redrock]

You can pre-order the guide at:
http://www.micro35.com/pre_order.htm

The rails and macro wasn't initially part of the "Kit". But I'm trying to get them in without raising the price. The assembled version will come with both.

Thanks!

[JasonFox]

Done. ;D

[rbilsbor]

Redrock... are you going to put up more test footage/charts/graphs etc. so we can gauge for ourselves any loss of resolution/chroma abber. etc?

[redrock]

Yeah, depending on when I get the footage back, the next post will be from a short, music video, and or the test charts. I'm concentrating on the guides out first.

[smkoch]

I look forward to seeing more footage before making a decision, Thanks for all your effort redrock

[ronik15]

How much does it cost for a setup like on your 2 first pictures. (35mm adpater price, lens price and mattebox price)
thank you

[henrygrins]

This is amazing. To date I've shot several music vids and a couple of commercials on the DVX/Mini35 rig. *Ridiculously expensive. *I'd rather spend the cash on primes. *Speaking of which, will the adaptor work with S16 primes? *I've got an A-Minima and would love to be able to use my lenses. *If there's not enough image area/resolution, it's cool. *Just wondering. *Another thing I was thinking (daydreaming) about was combining the Micro35 idea with Juan's uncompressed tool. *Combining those two items, losing the DVX glass altogether, and then repackaging them in a sleek boxy enclosure (make it look like a Range Rover ;D). *So HOT. *A good example of what the finished product might look like can be found here: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=6 8598&catGroupId=14617&displayTab=S&surfModel=AK-HC900&surfCategory=HD%20Cameras *Make it happen people!

Henry, DP NYC

[disjecta]

I'm curious, and maybe some of the experts in this field like redrock, Barry Green, or Shaw can answer this one for me.

While the narrow DOF look is really beautiful, personally I would most benefit from being able to use telephoto still lenses...the one thing that is missing on the DVX. I'm assuming this is possible but what I'm trying to figure out is what the telephoto range equivalency is.

For instance, my wife has a 400mm EOS lens and I'm wondering what my focal length would be with the DVX zoomed in to max, with this adapter and the 400mm lens.

[henrygrins]

Disjecta-

That's not how this device works. The focal length of the "taking" lens (the 35mm lens) would not change. Well, perhaps slightly. As a whole however, it would not change significantly. This means that your current 400mm tele lens would remain a 400mm lens.

Henry, DP NYC

[disjecta]

Of course, what was I thinking? ::)

Thanks for unclogging my brain. I need more sleep.

[redrock]

Ronik,
The parts on my setup cost less than $60. Rails and all.
The mattebox was $299. So around $359?

[J.R. Hudson]

Damn it Redrock; just let me know when to buy!

Damn you Apes!

[JasonFox]

That's damn, dirty apes to you, John. It's a madhouse! A madhouse!

And to stay on topic: Redrock, have you test out the new GG yet?

Fox

[redrock]

Not yet, I left a rig over at the glass place to let them use it to fit new ggs.

I ordered parts for two more devices for a shoot going on around here. I spent $37.00. That's just wrong.

How did I only spend $37 for two you ask? Some of the parts in the guide are re-usable!

I'm thinking about posting some footage on the micro35.com site to show the progress over the last couple of months..

[smkoch]

:D :D :D :D :D we all want what you got, it's time to quit your day job and cater to our needs

[redrock]

Word. I'm feeling you on that one. This day-job stuff is really getting in the way. But if quit my day-job, you might not be able to use your credit card to get gas at the gas station anymore.... Then on top of that, I've got a huge gig this weekend with my band... Go figure.

I'm going through with this whole thing. I can't wait to get on the Follow Focus and the Matte Box. I've already got several ideas on these...

[BLUESPIDER]

The anticipation! I'm ready to buy!! ;D

[Shaw]

Redrock, I am MOST interested in any follow focus design you might come up with. Definitely work on that some!

[J.R. Hudson]

That's damn, dirty apes to you, John. It's a madhouse! *A madhouse!


LMAO! :D

[PK Gillock]

redrock - Do you have a finance program? I can afford $9/mo for 100 months. *;D

What lens do you suggest for best results, but doesn't break the bank? (Keep in mind, my bank is smaller than others.)

Good work and excellent results. Thank you for making indie filmmaking even more affordable and possible,
PK

[redrock]

I'm trying brother!

You should ask Barry Green about the lenses. He seems to be the guru on this.

On another note, would it be interesting to anyone (besides myself) to be able to electronically add adjustable (16x9, etc.) framing lines to the video signal coming out of the camera for monitor previewing?

Also, I've updated the micro35.com site with some older footage...

[Barry_Green]

I'I'm assuming this is possible but what I'm trying to figure out is what the telephoto range equivalency is.

For instance, my wife has a 400mm EOS lens and I'm wondering what my focal length would be with the DVX zoomed in to max, with this adapter and the 400mm lens.
A still-camera lens, when mounted on a movie camera, looks more "telephoto" than it does when mounted on a still camera. So while your 400mm lens will still be 400mm whether mounted on a DVX/mini35 or on your EOS, the field of view will be different.

Look at it this way: the DVX's stock lens is said to be the equivalent of 325mm on a still camera. But on a movie camera, it's the equivalent of a 189mm lens. So you can expect an increase in magnification of somewhere around 70%, so your 400mm lens, when mounted on a properly-engineered mini35 type of device, will give you a field of view equivalent to about a 680mm lens on a 35mm still camera.

[mastermind]

yep DEFINATELY interested in adjustable framing lines. Especially if we can blur the unused portion of the frame but still have it transparent. That would be really cool.

[redrock]

It won't be blurred. Just darkened...

[Shaw]

Assuming you use the cinema sized 35mm frame Barry? Just checking to make sure I understand!

[gritsngumbo]

I'm fascinated with the concept of using the 35mm lens with the video cameras. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but will auto focus lenses work or does it need to be a manual focus lens? I have several Nikon 35 mm lenses but they are all auto focus. Thanks.

[Shaw]

Auto focus lenses will work but you will have to use them manually if that makes sense. None of the AF features will work.

[Erik Olson]

Is the distance between the imagers and the ground glass housing the minimum distance to achieve focus? I'm assuming the camera is in macro to the rear of the gg?

I'd like to purchase the instructions and parts but have some questions on compatability with matteboxes - sp. the 4x4 hard shade Cavision units. Do you use 15mm rods?

e

[mastermind]

redrock, you're right it's actually darkened. so what do you have in mind?

[fomoDVXpal]

I everyone ;D

I’ll be getting one of these babies as soon as some more footage is shown.

PAL (25p) is ok right?

Some people have mentioned that they are to use Juan's (http://www.reel-stream.com) uncompressed HD option.

...thing is, is that is a 16:9 compulsory system. You can shoot in 4:3 but then you will need to crop and lose lines.

I was wondering, if I want to combine these systems (the DVX will either look like Frankenstein's monster or something really professionally impressive) can I attach the 16:9 lens on the 35mm (or whatever it is) still camera lens that the mini35 needs?

Seems like a lot of glass.

Can I get a lens to put on the mini35 that is already 16:9?

[Shaw]

fomoDVXpal: I am not aware of any 16:9 35mm lenses. I'm pretty sure they don't exist.

You could try to combine the anamorphic with a 35mm lens but I doubt it would work. They probably have different focal planes.

I'm currently in the process of manufacturing a "rear anamorphic" system -both 16:9 and 2.35. All it would be is a simple little adapter between the lens and the 35mm setup. If there is enough interest I may manufacture some to sell.

[craig134]

If you build it, we will come.

[fomoDVXpal]

thanks Shaw. as you can tell i have no idea what i'm talking about so that was useful.

yes, if you get an anamorphic adapter going then the Frankenstein unit will evolve yet again and we will buy.

[Barry_Green]

Assuming you use the cinema sized 35mm frame Barry? *Just checking to make sure I understand!
Yes, that post was referencing the use of still camera lenses on a movie camera (or mini35, which *should* be using the 22x16mm frame size). With a homemade mini35, I guess you should verify what frame size is actually being projected on the ground glass and what size the camera is seeing.

[Shaw]

Ah, ok, that's what I thought :D. Just checking!

[redrock]

15mm Rods. 16mm center to center.

Got to get some work done today. So I'll be updating the site this evening.

[Neil Rowe]

i assume you meant 60mm. ;)

[redrock]

Doh! ::) Yep. Thank you for that correction!

[redrock]

Added some updates to the www.micro35.com site.

Should be an interesting weekend!

[Mesuge]

Hi Redrock,
any plans on future incorporation of some diy follow focus mechanism which could be straped on those rods in your system. I'm aware of the fact that since your system will be open to different lenses - makes it more complex to come up with something universal.. Looking forward to your first production ready samples of the kit! Thanks

[machardi]

A. This might be one of those "If you have to ask, then the answer is "Yes" questions" but is it difficult to piece one of these together? I have never done any kind of like, machining or whatever. Is it really hard? I think I'm a relatively competent person, whatever that means.

B. This might be obvious, but have you considered making a "How to make?" video? Or is that a little too room within the room, self-referential, or ______ ?

[PK Gillock]

Answers (maybe):
A: If you read the 13 pages of this thread (a novel by forum standards) it explains every detail redrock went through to build his Micro35. Along with links to other websites with different techniques. I'm like you, I don't know about machinery either, but I think it would be VERY difficult to get it done right the first time. Redrock went thru numerous variations and prototypes before coming to the current solution. I suggest buying the guide, and then, if you can't find the pieces, you can order his kit.

B: A video is a good idea. Right now he has an instruction manual/guide. He might be busy for the next few months with all these new projects and Micro35 orders.

I want to make one of these too. Good luck!

[soarprod]

Very interested in the kit - am I correct in that you will get upside down and backwards footage? Do you have to press in the screen flip button to fix this if it is the situation? Let me know when they are available. ;D

[Mesuge]

I don't want to speak for Redrock on that one but I think he mentioned it earlier in the thread that you should get corrected/normal picture in the viewfinder with his latest revision of the kit. Basically it's the core of the german based system less 6.700 euro :@ ) He even considers (few pages back) optional packages like mattebox, follow focus etc. which would make it a paradise kit..

I hope he settled down any possible legal issues (reverse engineering) and if not it can be outsourced to some anonymous chinese guys who will manufacture it for us..

Off-topic: I've seen it in the news lately that China is nowadays mostly importing scrap metal and crops from the US while chinese are exporting to them PCs and other hightech with increasingly own R&D.. eh pretty reversed structure of their trade balance uch..welcome to the new century.. Not even mentioning who bought out all the US govern. bonds..

[Shoxty]

If I remember correctly when I ordered a guide the website said you were going to ship them Feb 1st... have you shipped them as planned? Also, whats up with your site (micro35.com) it seems like its down more than its up.

[redrock]

Hey Guys,
Sorry for the server thing, I'm out in the sticks connected via radio. I'll be moving this to a hosted facility soon.

Had a busy weekend. The DVX100 (non-a) checks out good. I also have an XL2 coming over this weekend.

We built two more devices this weekend per the guide and found several fundemental assembly problems. So I'm fixing that this week and should have it to the printers by Friday. I'll be printing 500 copies, so I really like to get this right the first time if you know what I mean.

I got the different grades of new GGs in, I'm hoping to get those tested this week, but the guide has priority.

Many things to do, but not enough time in the day to do it!

BTW, The Pre-Assembled units are soo sweet!!!

I appreciate all the interest, and keep checking back to get the upates! Full steam ahead!

[Rick_Rock]

Looking good so far! I definitely joined the mailing list and I'm certainly glad you have an XL2 coming over for testing as well.

Keep us posted!

[DEATHTOPRINT]

Hey redrock. I've already purchased the guide... just waiting for it to come back from the printers now... any chance you'd know when you'll be shipping now? or when it will come back from the printers if it goes there today on schedule (FRIDAY, the 4th of Feb.)

[spidey]

Ok i been expriementing but i need to know before i jump in.

So does this work with any SLR lens? I have one form a still Camera so will that work?
I dont have macro lens, Good , Okay, or Bad?

OK my plans is this.

could you make one like a still camera and or like aparascope works by using mirrors? having two mirrors at and angle where bofere meet centered?

so like reflects in from the lens to the mirror to the other mirror to the camera? This would also defeat the upside down problem as well.

But would also need to make the cd ground glass ?

Do you think this is possible or not? if yes, then it might be the very cheap to make one only thing is it might be a lil tall but thats ok if it gets the job done.....
___ ___
/___\ |/ |[<|
[|___ |={|_/|
=========== (horrible ASCII computer drawing of it lol!)

COPYRIGHTED; PATIENT PENDING
just in case.

[Dante]

im just wondering....

I saw the set up and wondered how does it feel using it on your shoulder for shots ? It gotta be heffty to use. or there were no prob's?

[redrock]

Site Update!

www.micro35.com/new4.jpg
www.micro35.com/new5.jpg

Well, I've finally come out of the garage from a week of solid progress. I made a huge discovery with the way the adapter mounted on the rails. The height wasn't correct. Now the adapter has been flipped to accommodate the proper rail height. Although, I've got to delay the guide a few more days to update the drawings accordingly.

I've also added a Bogen/Manfortto mount for the rail setup. This should make it nice when dismounting the camera.

I should be finishing up the GG tests tomorrow and should have them posted tomorrow evening.

Here are some pics from the first article of the 'Pre-Assembled' unit.

www.micro35.com/new1.jpg
www.micro35.com/new2.jpg
www.micro35.com/new3.jpg
www.micro35.com/new4.jpg
www.micro35.com/new5.jpg


james

BTW (Got a shoulder setup in the works...)

[Mesuge]

Redrock, this is just sweet and music to our ears! Would you please comment on the previous discussion as to whether you might develop in the future some optional accessories to your kit like follow focus, matte box etc.. As I can see the shoulder mount could be the first from this line... Thanks!

[Taylor Moore]

Red,
New photo's of the Micro 35 looks great.

What SLR mount are you configuring this for...nikon, canon, ARRI...

Keep up the great work.

My check book is smoke'n....

[redrock]

Mesuge,
Matte box and follow focus' will 'follow'! Got to get this little guy going first.

Taylor, as always, thanks! I'd like to make it work with every lens I can, I just don't have access to some of them for testing. Although.. If you can get a hold of a mount, you should be able to make it work!

Thanks guys!

Res pics going up tonight!

[redrock]

http://www.micro35.com/resolution_tests.htm

[PK Gillock]

Excellent work redrock. Those tests really help. Thanks!

[Mesuge]

According to this site which follows the production of AmericanExpress advertisement feat. Seinfeld&Superman which was shooted on mini35/XL1 -> " This was, incidentally, one of the earlier versions of the Mini35 with the rotating groundglass; the latest version (400 series) with oscillating groundglass appears to to bear much deeper T-stops before the grain becomes visible."

I'm wondering what is Redrock using in his kit is it the
rotating groundglass, right? And if so is there any hope to come
up in the future with the oscillating groundglass approach which
would be apparently more sophisticated design but maybe
beyond the reach of DIY world..

http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/articles/article84.php

[ShannonRawls]

>:( >:( >:( DUDE!

Had I know about this new innovative idea, I would have postponed the shoot, and bought one of these in parts version or even fully assembled! *The cost of my rental was TWICE the price to own it here!

But then again, Eric at http://www.IndieRentals.com was so superbly cool and nice with great customer service, I would probably have still went with him.

http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=Links;action=display;num=1107758825

- Shannon W. Rawls

[Erik Olson]

Redrock,

I went with the GG 40 - though the early work with a spinning GG looked excellent.

What are your thoughts now? Does this look like a static product in your mind? This would ostensibly be the key difference between the Mini35 and Micro35 - the GG movement, or lack thereof?

e

[Super8]

Que pasa Redrock!

your cine machine looks great. I just purchased your manual. By the way...I bought it under FutbolClasico...(just in case you wonder who the heck bought it).

Your micro35 should work with a Panasonic AG-DVC80 right? I believe it is the same body as the DVX100 less all the cool features.

How hard will it be to assemble the micro35 once we purchase all the necessary components from you? I was not gifted with "put stuff together" skills. I usually fail miserably in assembling pre-fabricated desks....

Got the money and I'm ready to buy

:D

[jaredalv]

Wow, this does soften the footage quite a bit. That said, I also went with the 40. Definitely sharper in res than the others.

[DEATHTOPRINT]

I'm waiting to shoot an assignment for school, just waiting to see if this guide comes out soon enough. I'm doing a short called "KELVIN" (it's over in the screenwriting forum...

Redrock, any news on when the 500 guides will be back from the printer? or your updated expected ship date?

I need to complete a pre-pro. packet, then shoot... and i just wanted to get some ideas.... cos i've got to plan out my next 2 months of the semester for principal photography.

thanks.

[Evolve]

Hi Redrock

Your setup looks amazing....i am also here with cash in hand ;D ;D
Wondering how long it takes you to assemble one?
Thanks!!!

[redrock]

Hey guys,
Sorry for the delay. For some reason I'm not getting the email updates from dvxuser. Anyway...

I sent out an email to all of the Pre-Order customers on Saturday. I've turned the adapter over to have the correct height for a follow focus and matte box. So I'm having to change up a few drawings. No biggie. It will certainly help in the long run.

Everyone seems to agree that the GG-40 is the best. With it being the lowest sample, I went back to the glass company yesterday. I'm having them make a GG-10 and GG-20. The engineer in me wants to see where the quality stops.

No immediate plans on an oscillating design. Unless everyone wants to pay a few thousand for an adapter....

Super8, you should be good with the camera you have.

As far as how long it takes, I built two this weekend.

As far as the softness, I think my lens had a little to do with it. But if you compare it to the DVX raw shot, they're not too much different. I think Vegas also had a hand in the quality...

When I release the Pre-Assembled units for ordering, I don't expect any long delays because I've setup a contract manufacturer to assemble them. So hopefully the lead times will be a week or two at the most.

I'm working on an adapter with a OCT-19 ( PL type I think) mount right now. I'll post some pictures when I get it finished. I'm fitting it with a follow focus and rail-mounted matte box. Should be sweet! The lens on the rig is about 4 stops brighter than my Sigma 24-79 2.8 lens.

Thanks for the responses guys!

[embers.]

Is it a custom made FF??

[redrock]

Nope.

But... Now that I've finally got my hands on one, I see how they work... Can't believe people pay over a grand for them... They're certainly next on my list.

[embers.]

Awesome... can't wait! You're a savior to all that is indie RR. Thank you very much.

[JasonFox]

Redrock -- so if we order a pre-assembled unit, do we pick what kind of lens mount we want?

[scharky]

Wow, I havn't been following this thread in a while. I just got excited. ooops. :-[

[infokill]

so how mush is a pre-assembled one going to cost. i have no skills :-/
But i definitley want one!

[Erik Olson]

PL mount please...

;D

[Shadow]

Redrock, Do you sell the rail system on your picture as a part too?

[hvpz]

Looks very good. (I'm still interested to purchase it).

What are the dark areas we can see at the corners ?
Especially, at the left of bottom right corner (test 4 - F8)

[PK Gillock]

If you read the intro, redrock explains that there was a chipped glass on the bottom right corner. Instead of waiting for a new glass he decided to go ahead with the tests. But yes, there is a dark/smudge on the bottom right of most of the grabs.

[embers.]

Redrock, Do you sell the rail system on your picture as a part too?

When I contacted him (or whoever answered my email) he said the that the pre-assembled units will come with the rail system.

[JasonFox]

PL mount please...

;D

Overland,

For those of us less in-the-know about still lenses, what type of lenses use the PL mount?

[mastermind]

i know zeiss lenses do. jsut do a search online for pl mount and it should pull up some stuff

[Erik Olson]

Designed for anamorphic aspherical and extremely fast spherical motion picture lenses (read: huge glass), the PL is the system most cinematographic equipment mfgs. choose for interfacing their product to any given camera head.

It somewhat replaced the Mitchell (BNCR [eflex]) mounts when Panavision and Arriflex 35mm photography was becoming standardized.

I believe DVXUser tested PL mount Cooke glass when they benched a Mini35...

Mini35 - PL mount bench test (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/mini35/)

Anyway, I'd love to have a PL mount option in order to rent some real glass from time to time.

SuperSpeed = SuperSexy.

e

[Barry_Green]

Interchangeable mounts would be the best way to go. PL/Canon/Nikon/Contax, just like the mini35 does.

[Erik Olson]

Yes. I have a load of Minolta mount Vivitar Series 1 prime lenses I'd love to play with too. These have always treated me well - maybe they'll enjoy a new life as additional tools for the DVX!

I'm sure that everyone will have their own preferences depending on what they might already own for SLR photography.

I doubt if many people here own cinematography lenses, but there are some amazing products out there for rent. These are almost always PL / Arri B mounts. You can still find lots of interesting glass for experimentation with BNCR type too!

e

[Policar]

I think Canon and Nikon mounts would probably end up being most popular, especially since most people buying a 500 dollar adapter can't afford insanely expensive glass.

I think a Canon mount would be most popular. Plus, Canon makes a good 50mm f1.8 lens for 75 dollars....which will be mine soon enough. Unfortunately, telephoto and wide angle lenses aren't cheap.

Interchangable mounts would drive the price up really high, so I'm ambivalent about them, but it is a good idea...

[Shaw]

I would definitely go for a Nikon lens mount. At least for me.

Nikon lenses will fit ANY Nikon body and thus and mount. You don't have the problem Canon creates by making lenses for specific cameras and then changing everything in their next product so you have to go buy more lenses.

[amoildani]

i want an canon mount just cause i own 3 canon lenses

[Unix]

Interchangeable mounts would be the best way to go. *PL/Canon/Nikon/Contax, just like the mini35 does.

yep

[soarprod]

Yay Canon! ;D

[mastermind]

i personally would like the pl mount simply because these lenses already have focus gears and would easily allow for a follow focus unit, unless redrock manages to figure out a way to create one that would work on canon or nikon lenses.

does anyone know where you can buy cheap/used arri/zeiss pl mount lenses?

[Shaw]

Cheap and arri/zeiss don't usually fit in the same sentence :D

What's your definition of cheap? You won't find these for anywhere near the cost of a Nikon or Canon lens.

[Erik Olson]

Don't buy big glass, just rent it when you need it. You can rent nice Cooke, Clairmont, Schneider and Angenieux glass in most major cities - let the rental house worry about the lens' proper care and shoulder the cost of having a nice, well-rounded collection.

Also, keep in mind that the MC coatings on used lenses (post WW2 - present) are often scratched or overcleaned to the point of light-loss or worse.

I think the ability to use a PL mount (like the universal PL mounts by Optex) would be good enough for our use. These [mounts] are rather expensive items and I wouldn't expect RedRock to necessarily include them in a kit - however, I would greatly appreciate compatability!

Cheers,

e

[dmc]

I'm brand new to the DVXUser group - this is a terrific online forum!

I'm curious as to where exactly the spinning GG mechanism gets its power from. My apologies if this has been covered in earlier posts.


thanks,


dmc

[embers.]

^good question. I thought of that but never asked.

[Super8]

Hey Redrock!

I was thinking...how about pre-ordering your micro35? I think there are a lot of us that would not think about it twice in putting down some sort of down payment for the micro35..or even fork out the whole amount.

I think this thing looks pretty sweet even when it was 2 revisions back ago so I am pretty sure that whatever this thing ends up being I will definately buy it.

I've pre-ordered the book and I will pre-order the micro35......what you think guys?
Who else is game?

[Bill__Turner]

Like many I have been following this thread off and on. I have a couple questions.

Canon EOS lenses do not have an iris control ring or any way to adjust the iris manually--- doesn't this present a problem--- or when people express the desire to use Canon lenses do they mean the old FD mount lenses that preceded the EOS ? Note: At least some if not all of the newer Nikon lenses designed for their Digital SLR's do not have mechaically adjustable iris's either.

Unless I missed it the system is still one that will produce an upside down image --- which doesn't present insurmountable problems but will make using it more challenging.

Until a working prototype has been in hands of and tested by a third party, such as one of the moderators of this site, I would remain sceptical and very careful about sending money to an anonymous entity.

Having said that, I hope that Redrock really can make a lowcost unit of a quality that will fill the need expressed by so many.

Time will tell.

Bill Turner

[Barry_Green]

Cheap and arri/zeiss don't usually fit in the same sentence :D
Certainly not in PL mount!

But, if you're willing to look at older still-camera lenses, you can get Zeiss Jena lenses for quite cheap -- $60 to $200 for most. I've got a full set of them, and used them on the mini35 (had to use an M42->Contax adapter to do it) and they looked almost indistinguishable from a modern-day SuperSpeed. (Yes the SuperSpeed is a much better lens, and faster, but when recording down to DV resolution through a piece of ground glass, there was no observable difference).

[goober542]

Barry have you taken a look at the res tests? If so does it seem to be close or better than that of the true mini 35?

(r)yan

[DEATHTOPRINT]

i wish redrock could tell us when he's shipping the guides, or when they come back from printer. Or atleast some status on it being that 3/4 of us already probably purchased the guide already. (i know i did the day he announced he was shipping feb.1st) but...

talk about having some hopes up... mine are still up... i just don't want to come down...

[Super8]

I purchased the book too!

Porbably I will not understand one bit of it...but if it gets me one step closer to the micro35 then it is worth the $45 bucks...whipeeeeee!

[mr._guiyotinne]

he´ll probaly use this weekend to fix the guides for the rods problem and send it on monday... if it´s like minor changes. Don´t go down Deathtoprint, hang on there and soon we will be compensated.

Anyway, nobody here in Spain knew the word ground glass, and i don´t know how translate either... I´m gonna go for the non assembled nearly for sure... Wich kind of tools wil we need? screwdriver and superglue? ;D

That would be awesome... I can´t wait!

[Unix]

in Spain
That would be awesome... I can´t wait!

well u can check out this tutorial on how to do it, at least you'll have an idea before u get the book
this guys used a clear CD ussually the one on top of a stack of CDR's

http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dof/index.htm

[Unix]

I'm brand new to the DVXUser group - this is a terrific online forum!

I'm curious as to where exactly the spinning GG mechanism gets its power from. *My apologies if this has been covered in earlier posts.


thanks,


dmc


broken CD player


http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dof/index.htm

[Shaw]

I doubt it's a broken CD player in this case. It's not very practical to use in manufacturing large numbers.

[taubkin]

[quote author=mr._guiyotinne link=board=Links;num=1097454631;start=240#242 date=02/11/05 at 14:41:29
Anyway, nobody here in Spain knew the word ground glass, and i don´t know how translate either... I´m gonna go for the non assembled nearly for sure... Wich kind of tools wil we need? screwdriver and superglue? *;D[/quote]

I don't know about spanish, but in portuguese it's called "despolido". See if it helps!

Cheers!

[leechild]

For those of us who are new to this forum and what it represents, could someone please explain what this micro35 is all about? Much appreciated

[Erik Olson]

Well, you should really read the thread because things have evolved from the beginning! *But, in a nutshell:

Digital video cameras have limited control over depth of field - often giving focus from foreground subject to infinity. *To achieve better control of DOF, several companies have begun to mfg. rather expensive converters which lock the focus of the camera onto a semi-opaque internal "screen" surface called a ground-glass. *On the other side of this adapter is a mounting plate for still photography or motion picture lenses.

The Micro35 will be an iris-rod supported adapter which will house a photographic ground glass a short distance from the front element of the DVX100a's own lens. *The DVX will be focused on this element manually and effectively locked-down. *

The lenses attached the appropriate Micro35 (e.g., Nikon, Canon or PL) mounting adapter plate will then place an image onto the ground glass - where it will be captured by the camera's locked-off lens.

All focusing will be done through the photographic lenses you mount to the Micro35, forcing only the parts of the image you want in (or out of) focus onto that ground glass.

Effectively, the DVX will be turned into a passive imager only (hope I got that right!?) especially where DOF and focus are concerned.

Did I miss anything?

e

[Policar]

There's some sort of weird vignetting in the corners of the image...and the rotating is noticable. Still, everything looks pretty amazing.

How about vibrating ground glass? It would be smaller and have a more random motion....

Anyhow, I'll probably end up buying one of these.