1080i VS 720PN

[indybones]

Hi guys

Little bit of advice if poss please.

I'm doing some tests for a new shoot at the moment, I was originaly going to be shooting on 720PN because I could if I need use multiple frame rates and I also get double the amount of recording time on my card. However I found this article in October 2007 American Cinematographer where Brandon Dickerson discusss 'Switchfoot' 'Awakening' video.

Another reason Dickerson chose to shoot with HVX200 was its 24 fps capability and the video quality aesthetic. Everything was recorded in the 720PN format and then up converted to the 1080p for mastering. Since completing 'Awakening', Cioni recommends that cinematographers using the HVX200 record the image using the cameras internally upconverted 1080i format.
"At first everybody thought shooting at 1280X720 would be better because thats closer to the native resolution of the camera," explains Cioni, "with the HVX, in every frame you can actually see the compression particularly in low light and so your scaling that compression 33 percent when you up-rez to the 1080 master. The compression at 1920X1080 is less visible because even at 1080 you have the same amount of compression in the 720 image. The downside is you have to record 1080i, and your card economy also tanks about 40 percent.

I'm not sure yet if I'm going to be using different frame rates obviously this would mean me shooting 720PN. Also am I right in thinking that the 1080i isn't interlaced its only wrapped so I would still be getting a 25p (progressive image)?
The size isn't that much of a problem because I can just dump the footage there and then when the card is full.

Any thoughts advice or suggestions on 720PN vs 1080i would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Indy

[Barry_Green]

1080/25p is going to look better than 720/25p, no question. Not a tremendous amount better, but maybe 15% sharper and visibly less compressed. Whether that is worth the tradeoff of getting half the recording time is a decision you have to make for yourself. I always use 1080/24pA on my HPX170.

The idea that 720p looks better is simply a fallacy. 720pN has its advantages, including access to variable frame rates and less card space used, but "better footage" is not among them. It's close, but it's not better.

Don't use 1080i for film-like stuff. Use 1080p.

[indybones]

Thanks for your advice and help Barry...:thumbup:

[KMR]

Indy: Part of what you quoted includes a particularly pernicious misunderstanding.

"Cioni recommends that cinematographers using the HVX200 record the image using the cameras internally upconverted 1080i format."

The 1080 is not "upconverted", since the camera begins with a 1920x1080 progressive image, no matter what format the user ends up recording in. Whether it's being recorded at 1080, 720, or 480, the camera begins with 1920x1080 and downconverts from that.

[Richard Allen Crook]

This is so wierd...I was searching for this very topic yesterday! I'm debating if shooting 1080 is worth the loss of storage space and framerates. I've shot tests and Barry's right...the difference if barely noticeable. But you can tell the difference.

I think you really have to consider how it's to be primarily shown to people. On a computer anything more than 720 is pointless. I guess unless you're filming out, projecting in a theatre (on a HD projector), or burning to Blueray, there's not much point in going higher. So far the stuff I've made is 95% either viewed in HD or SD on the internet or in SD via a DVD.

I think if I'm doing a full feature where the screening/distribution formats are up in the air, it would be wise to go 1080. Otherwise I think I'll stick to 720.

[indybones]

Indy: Part of what you quoted includes a particularly pernicious misunderstanding.

"Cioni recommends that cinematographers using the HVX200 record the image using the cameras internally upconverted 1080i format."

The 1080 is not "upconverted", since the camera begins with a 1920x1080 progressive image, no matter what format the user ends up recording in. Whether it's being recorded at 1080, 720, or 480, the camera begins with 1920x1080 and downconverts from that.


Gimme a sec I'm going to make sure I copied the quote out right

[indybones]

Yup quote was copied correctly, on page 84 of the October 2007 issue of ASC

[ksteiger]

I got so tired of hearing this I did my own quick test. I simply shot some text in varying sizes kind of like an eye chart. (I don't have a real rez chart) I then zoomed out in 1080 to the point where the smaller text was just readable. I then shot clips in both 720 24 pn and 1080 24pa. When you look at the 720 footage, the text suddenly becomes blurry and completely unreadable. There is a small but noticeable boost in the resolution in 1080. And it does not simply look edge enhanced.

I verified this using a 1080p monitor straight out of the camera using the component output.
I also inported the clips into a Final Cut 1080 timeline and viewed the clips using a 30" cinema display. (Which far exceeds the HD video resoltion obviously)

I'll still shoot 720 a lot. I do a fair amount of live music events with 2 cameras where long running times are coomon and re-takes don't exist. But for me this is no longer an issue. 1080 is the best output format with these cameras just as intended by Panasonic.

... but that's just MY opinion.

[Damodt]

Don't use 1080i for film-like stuff. Use 1080p.

I dont think I have 1080p on the HPX? Whats with that? Yet my little cheapo Canon does.

[ksteiger]

It's a 1080 60i stream, but 30p and 24p are really and truly progressive. It just won't do 1080 60P ... but who cares.

[indybones]

I got so tired of hearing this I did my own quick test. I simply shot some text in varying sizes kind of like an eye chart. (I don't have a real rez chart) I then zoomed out in 1080 to the point where the smaller text was just readable. I then shot clips in both 720 24 pn and 1080 24pa. When you look at the 720 footage, the text suddenly becomes blurry and completely unreadable. There is a small but noticeable boost in the resolution in 1080. And it does not simply look edge enhanced.

I verified this using a 1080p monitor straight out of the camera using the component output.
I also inported the clips into a Final Cut 1080 timeline and viewed the clips using a 30" cinema display. (Which far exceeds the HD video resoltion obviously)

I'll still shoot 720 a lot. I do a fair amount of live music events with 2 cameras where long running times are coomon and re-takes don't exist. But for me this is no longer an issue. 1080 is the best output format with these cameras just as intended by Panasonic.

... but that's just MY opinion.

Nice one fella...cheers for your test and feedback on this question :dankk2::thumbup:

[Jan_Crittenden]

I dont think I have 1080p on the HPX? Whats with that? Yet my little cheapo Canon does.

Go into the menus and set it to capture in the Progessive modes and it will do 1080P, but it will be a segmented frame across two fields. It cannot do 60P in 1080, but it will do 24 and 30.

Best,

Jan

[Damodt]

Thanks Jan, I looked at the EX-1 very closely before getting this HPX and even your friends in SLC tried to talk me into the EX-1 but so far I'm enjoying the HPX.