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nathankw
06-16-2009, 11:42 PM
Help!
Got my PAL GH1 a few days ago. Have been very happy with its performance outside in good light.
Last night I tried it indoors in low light and the image was horrible.
Here's a screen grab:http://lh6.ggpht.com/_8wnyxuMw9fQ/SjiOE7dq6bI/AAAAAAAABHc/sGzoqgF1qy0/s640/gh1%20low%20light%20streaking.jpg

This was at 400 asa (which I've read people saying is pretty good). It's also visible at 200asa in any underexposed areas. It was in creative movie mode with full manual control.

Any ideas? Is there some menu setting I'm missing or is this a faulty camera? Presumably no one else is seeing this?

Kholi
06-16-2009, 11:45 PM
I saw it at different ISO settings, but it was really randomly popping up. I think it's literally related to specific ISO settings. I'm also kinda confused at the 400 ISO setting being native. I really don't think it is.

Try it out at different ISO's and see what you get.

nathankw
06-17-2009, 12:27 AM
So you saw similar streaking?
Surely you should never see this kind of thing - it totally ruins the image.

I saw it at both 200 asa and 400 asa (though it was worse at 400). Also visible in both 1080 mode (worse) and 720 (more subtle). Just to clarify, the above still is a frame from a video (1080 FHD). I haven't seen the effect on stills.

I'm not sure what you mean by 400 asa being native? Could you clarify.

Kholi
06-17-2009, 12:47 AM
I saw it in EXTREME lowlight when I first started using the camera. And that was at high ISO's or the weird ISO's, like 400.

Oh, and it was also with a weird white balance setting when it came up. Like sub 3000K.

But again, I just didn't see it anymore later on unless I was at high ISO's or odd ones. I usually shot at 320 or 640 and was pretty much always balanced between 4500 and 5500K.

Just have to see where it vanishes.

ThomasS
06-17-2009, 01:05 AM
I had also this effect, see the first post in this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173577. The streaks started to be visible at ISO 400, also if you look at the emitted light, it shows color blotches (purple, green, yellow), that also become visible on skin, see the first vimeo clip.

nathankw
06-17-2009, 02:31 AM
ThomasS - The streaks on that shot look similar to what I'm getting, but I'm seeing worse and at 400 iso. I'd accept that going up to 1600 you'd get some degredation but it should be pretty slight at 400.

Kholi - The white balance was set to tungsten preset so that shouldn't be it. I'll try experimenting with different WBs. What do you mean by 400 being a "weird" ISO?

Uwe Lansing
06-17-2009, 03:10 AM
Yesterday there was a review in a quite famous forum in germany and they got the same result:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7197/71712luxslcm12lux.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/71712luxslcm12lux.jpg/)

Bad google translation:
http://www.translate.google.de/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashcam.de%2Fartikel%2FTest%2F Panasonic-GH1---Kit--Audio---Bildqualitaet---Aus-dem-Messlabor.html%23Bildq&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=

commanderspike
06-17-2009, 04:06 AM
Strange, I got this when I first used the GH1, it seemed to go away over time.

I definitely do not see that at ISO 400 indoors, low light now.

nathankw
06-17-2009, 04:13 AM
Yesterday there was a review in a quite famous forum in germany and they got the same result:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7197/71712luxslcm12lux.jpg

Yes - looks like the same effect. Doesn't say what ISO that is though.
As I say, I wouldn't be worried about seeing this kind of thing when using the maximum ISO, but 200-400 should be midrange and shouldn't be seeing anything like this.

nathankw
06-17-2009, 04:13 AM
Strange, I got this when I first used the GH1, it seemed to go away over time.

I definitely do not see that at ISO 400 indoors, low light now.

That is odd. So do I have a faulty camera or will it just go away?
I'm not sure I want to take the risk...

bronxjragon
06-17-2009, 06:34 AM
Yesterday there was a review in a quite famous forum in germany and they got the same result:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7197/71712luxslcm12lux.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/71712luxslcm12lux.jpg/)

Bad google translation:
http://www.translate.google.de/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashcam.de%2Fartikel%2FTest%2F Panasonic-GH1---Kit--Audio---Bildqualitaet---Aus-dem-Messlabor.html%23Bildq&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=

Please never post this picture again.

Ken7
06-17-2009, 07:21 AM
Guys, I've seen this exact same effect with dedicated video camcorders! Many, under low-light conditions, will exhibit that vertical streaking.

I had it with a Canon HV20, HV10 and others. This is not unique to the Panasonic, trust me! As to what it is and why it's there...that's another question.

But the important point is it is not a defect, but rather a low-light weakness inherent in many video cameras.

nathankw
06-17-2009, 07:53 AM
But the important point is it is not a defect, but rather a low-light weakness inherent in many video cameras.

And yet this footage looks great. And he said he went up to 800ISO.

http://www.vimeo.com/5179973

I'm seeing this effect at not particularly low light levels.

Blue_Food
06-17-2009, 08:00 AM
You can add my name to the list of people that experienced this during my first day with the camera, but haven’t noticed it since. I don’t recall what ISO I was using (it would be really nice if it captured that meta-data) but I remember that it was the blue channel that seemed to be responsible for most of it (along with other messed-up noise).

Odd…

Have there ever been any other instances of a sensor that has needed time to ‘break-in’?

Nitsuj
06-17-2009, 08:31 AM
Please never post this picture again.

Hehe why you say that?

Nitsuj
06-17-2009, 08:37 AM
Here fixed it.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t6/Ni7suj/streaks.jpg

Kholi
06-17-2009, 08:46 AM
You can add my name to the list of people that experienced this during my first day with the camera, but haven’t noticed it since. I don’t recall what ISO I was using (it would be really nice if it captured that meta-data) but I remember that it was the blue channel that seemed to be responsible for most of it (along with other messed-up noise).

Odd…

Have there ever been any other instances of a sensor that has needed time to ‘break-in’?

Man, that's actually my theory for everything that's wrong with this camera. Just after a while of useage, and constantly playing with the camera, so many issues seemed to just vanish into thin-air. This is one of them.

Weird as hell but I just have no other explaination.

Jack Daniel Stanley
06-17-2009, 08:51 AM
Guys, I've seen this exact same effect with dedicated video camcorders! Many, under low-light conditions, will exhibit that vertical streaking.

I had it with a Canon HV20, HV10 and others. This is not unique to the Panasonic, trust me! As to what it is and why it's there...that's another question.

But the important point is it is not a defect, but rather a low-light weakness inherent in many video cameras.
Yep I bought an HF10 and returned it for this reason. Just wanted to wait for HF100 or Scarlet or something - turned out I was waiting fort he GH1.

I don't know if it has to do with ISO, I found it to have more to do with not enough light. Maybe there's some Auto Gain in the GH1?

Here's what I found with the GH1 and HF10.

Go to a low light room. Find a horizontal line like a picture rail or chair rail or top of cabinets. Flick your wrist. You will see the horizontal line ghost / trail.

Now turn on a 600w light. Leave everything the same in camera. Flick your wrist. No banding.

PhilD
06-17-2009, 09:12 AM
OK guys I was told by Panasonic reps at a trade show not to put the following pictures on the net because it was supposed to be a problem only found on pre-production models, but the fact that the problem seems to persist on release units is pissing me off so I'm posting them anyway! :Drogar-Mark-01(DBG)

One is ISO 800 and the one with extreme light streaks is ISO 1600

Good luck Panasonic -- I hope you release a firmware soon! Otherwise :kali:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/d9gXLSmmp9Tr8_AYIr0EHQ?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JEVAdqG34K6LyXr1wkvCFg?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-XX1YJYKmBQNrebw69jTBQ?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kUJpQ2Q7tuM0oTrTFAFF7A?feat=directlink


EDIT: Just noticed that the streaks in my pics are horizontal, not vertical like others have reported
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/d9gXLSmmp9Tr8_AYIr0EHQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCIiqmJul3rjoK w&feat=directlink

PhilD
06-17-2009, 09:25 AM
Unfortunately, the streaks are still apparent on your pic



Here fixed it.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t6/Ni7suj/streaks.jpg

nathankw
06-17-2009, 09:25 AM
So sounds like this problem might go away, but I'm not on my first day. I shot lots with it over the weekend, but all in good light. And my banding is worse than those preproduction models at lower ISO.

I'll keep trying for another day or so, but otherwise I might have to try for a replacement.

Nitsuj
06-17-2009, 09:28 AM
Unfortunately, the streaks are still apparent on your pic

That is called creative expression my friend. :2vrolijk_08:

commanderspike
06-17-2009, 09:32 AM
My banding was like a fixed pattern across the frame.

Vanished by day 2.

Very interested to see if yours does the same over time... I wouldn't return it just yet.

Frame below is shot in full HD 24p at ISO 1600... not a spec of noise!

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/nobanding.jpg

Kholi
06-17-2009, 09:39 AM
My banding was like a fixed pattern across the frame.

Vanished by day 2.

ISO 1600 still has it sometimes though - that is kinda expectable.

Same here, man. Weird huh?

That's when I dubbed MJPEG no good, but hadn't tried it again until later on, then it looked better. The fixed pattern was gone.

It's really strange how these cameras behave, but I learned a pretty good longterm lesson: use it for a while THEN report on it. No telling what's going on with these damned things.

I would just turn the camera on, put a blank SDHC card in it and let it record until the battery dies when I get a new one.

IN fact, that's what I'm gonna do when I get my two. Just burn them for a day.

Martti Ekstrand
06-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Hmm - I see it faintly as well in some 1600 shots and one 800 but I don't have many flat surfaces in my footage. Judging from the 'organic' nature of the pattern, that it's static and that it vanished for people over time I wonder if it's some residue from the manufacturing on the sensor surface that's vaporizing from the sensor's heat. Just a wild guess mind.

commanderspike
06-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Maybe some of the pixels are a little more sensitive than others out of the factory and need to settle down, similar to a Plasma TV?

Unprecedented thing to do with a camera.... burn in!! What is this... a pair of headphones?? :)

BradM
06-17-2009, 10:14 AM
Maybe some of the pixels are a little more sensitive than others out of the factory and need to settle down, similar to a Plasma TV?


you make it sound like some Emo kid with ADD and an eating disorder:2vrolijk_08:

good news though, if its fixing itself over time with some use.

Uwe Lansing
06-17-2009, 10:20 AM
Maybe some of the pixels are a little more sensitive than others out of the factory and need to settle down, similar to a Plasma TV?
.... burn in!!

That sounds familiar to me. I have a 50" pioneer plasma and the first time the break-in dvd was running about 8h every day. But i´ve never heard of a similar procedure with a camera :-). But you live and learn...

Steve Castle
06-17-2009, 10:35 AM
Unfortunately all cameras with digital sensors have banding. Every time a new camera is released there are always (http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00TTdv) similar complaints (http://photo.net/canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/00Rjyp)on forums (http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikond3/discuss/72157603545872363/), the inherit problem is that the noise component is also amplified at high ISO settings; random noise or pattern noise (banding) stands out in images taken at high ISO settings.

Banding usually occurs under certain conditions, its not just high-ISO, but rather a combination of the subject/environment you're taking relative to how much the noise is being amplified via a high-ISO setting. Banding noise is most noticeable in the shadows, or when an image has been superlatively brightened. Panasonic may release an update to reduce banding in future firmware updates but its probably impossible to completely remove banding under every single condition. Banding can be reduced via modification to their noise-reduction algorithms; Canon original 5D was notorious for their banding issues, where people reportedly experiencing banding at even ISO100. This was due to the how the camera handled NR as well as white-balance, but the GH1 doesn't seem to have that particular issue.

hurdy-gurdy-man
06-18-2009, 06:58 AM
Very interesting. That's exactly what happened when I first used my GH1 indoors under low-light conditions. I was really shocked as the footage looked extremely awful. The room was lit by just one uncovered light bulb under the ceiling but through my human eyes it was rather bright. It was also day one with my GH1 and the little thing totally poo pooed it up: not only an awful lot of moving horizontal streaks but also fixed vertical banding. At ISO 400 it started to look really terrible and everything above made the footage totally unwatchable.

So then a few days later, getting more used to the camera, I did my first outdoor night footage (http://vimeo.com/5067969). This was really extreme low-light. To avoid streaks and banding I had to stick to a maximum of ISO 400 which is why the results look rather clean but really dark as well. At 0:45 you see a shot with 800 ISO - and there it is again. So I'm asking myself what the higher ISO is good for when it's not usable anyways...

Maybe I'll do a quick low-light test again tonight, as many of you say the issue vanished on day 2.

Crucial topic, should be discovered more deeply.

EDIT: All experience with the kit lens only.

Uwe Lansing
06-18-2009, 11:18 AM
...
Maybe I'll do a quick low-light test again tonight, as many of you say the issue vanished on day 2.

Crucial topic, should be discovered more deeply.


Yes, every owner of a gh1 should keep an eye on this point that causes some annoyance. If it doesn´t vanish after a few days or weeks it could possibly be a reason not to buy this camera.

Nighthawk
06-18-2009, 08:07 PM
Just turned my new GH1 on and, yes, it has it too. I'll keep an eye on this and see if it's gone in a couple of days.

nathankw
06-19-2009, 03:16 AM
Well I'm glad it's not just me, though in a way it would have been better if I simply had a faulty model.

I've just got to hope it goes away soon.

Have people tried shooting in the same conditions and seen the image change, or could it be that you get better at using it and spotting the situations where it'll look bad?

Lew2009
06-19-2009, 01:39 PM
I do not own a GH1 but this might help some of you who are seeing this problem.
Video is just a hobby of mine but I do have some experience in low level video hardware design. So I thought I would toss out some ideas on what might be causing this noise pattern in the video.

Apparently the noise is not random and is getting into the analog video signal before it is converted to digital. This is most likely happening in the image sensor area, and the most probable cause is the power sources in the camera do not have enough noise filtering.

Another cause could be the physical layout of the circuitry, with some of the low level video signal traces being in close proximity to high current signal traces.

The above are both hardware problems and cannot be fixed by software.
However, there can be other sources of this noise that we might be able to control.

Three areas of the camera that can generate a fair amount of electrical noise are the power sources, mentioned above, and also the LCD display and the USM focus motor.
We have control over the focus motor and the LCD display so we can try switching them off and on to see if they have any effect on this noise pattern.

I would try this test with the ISO set to at least 800 or 1600 to get the noise to be more apparent. The focus motor test is a little more difficult because you have to get the auto focus to move in and out. Turning the LCD off is probably the best and easiest test to try
and will most likely be of some help in lowering the noise floor in the camera.

These are just my thoughts and may have nothing to do with the problem, but hopefully
this may be of some help

nathankw
06-19-2009, 03:21 PM
Interesting info. I'll try switching the LCD on and off.

Any idea why people would be reporting that the low light image quality improves over the first few days of use?

cjwolff
06-19-2009, 03:35 PM
That is odd. So do I have a faulty camera or will it just go away?
I'm not sure I want to take the risk...

I had the same problem on my Leica R, it turned out that the material they used to make the foam light seal on the back door deteriorated prematurely. It caused terrible streaking on my shots.

:Drogar-SunGlass(DBG

Uwe Lansing
06-19-2009, 11:34 PM
...
Any idea why people would be reporting that the low light image quality improves over the first few days of use?

So it´s still there after a few days?

PhilD
06-20-2009, 06:42 AM
Finally got my GH1 yesterday, still 14 days for possible return...

I switched the LCD on and off and it's still there.

This camera has its share of problems with high ISOs. I don't know about other video DLSR's but what you're seeing in the LCD/ ViewFinder in the GH1 when not filming is actually video at a very high ISO (I'd say ISO 6400, 12800 and over), in order to maintain 1/30 or 1/60 preview, say, at night (otherwise everything would be blurry and you would really wish for an optical viewfinder instead of an electronic one). That's why there are lots of vertical and horizontal streaks when you look at the sceen, but when you press the shutter they usually disappear unless you're at a high ISO. The highest for photo is ISO 3200 and ISO 1600 for video I think.

The problem seems to be the most apparent in photos for some reason. Yesterday I shot some video at night at 1600, and although the colors seemed a bit off - yellow/blueish, it looked good, and I took a pic at the same place at the same ISO and it was much worse. I think for video the max you will get away with is ISO 1000 (you have to unluck that in a menu otherwise it jumps from ISO 800 to 1600).

I will post the night vids in a few days...

hurdy-gurdy-man
06-20-2009, 08:28 AM
Finally got my GH1 yesterday, still 14 days for possible return...

I switched the LCD on and off and it's still there.

This camera has its share of problems with high ISOs. I don't know about other video DLSR's but what you're seeing in the LCD/ ViewFinder in the GH1 when not filming is actually video at a very high ISO (I'd say ISO 6400, 12800 and over), in order to maintain 1/30 or 1/60 preview, say, at night (otherwise everything would be blurry and you would really wish for an optical viewfinder instead of an electronic one). That's why there are lots of vertical and horizontal streaks when you look at the sceen, but when you press the shutter they usually disappear unless you're at a high ISO. The highest for photo is ISO 3200 and ISO 1600 for video I think.

In full manual video mode, the LCD always shows an exact preview of the video you'll shoot. High ISO noise is just an issue in automatic modes, though I'd really like a menu option to turn it off.


I think for video the max you will get away with is ISO 1000 (you have to unluck that in a menu otherwise it jumps from ISO 800 to 1600).

I will post the night vids in a few days...

Interesting! Didn't know yet there was an option to unlock ISO. Where do I find it? Thanks.

PhilD
06-20-2009, 08:54 AM
In full manual video mode, the LCD always shows an exact preview of the video you'll shoot.

False. At night or say in a low light area it doesn't show you what you will shoot (in fact it never does unless there's some way to alter display settings).

If your settings are say ISO 100, f22 and 1/30 and it's totally dark, your resulting video will be all black --- but before / after filming you see your stuff in the LCD / VF well lit, almost as if it's night vision, with tons of vertical / horizontal streaks. What you see in the LCD/ VF is very different between your previewing and the moment you start shooting. Try it.




Interesting! Didn't know yet there was an option to unlock ISO. Where do I find it? Thanks.

In the "M" mode, under REC, turn off ISO LIMIT SET and choose 1/3EV in ISO INCREMENTS.

dmoreno
06-20-2009, 09:04 AM
The notable difference from the LCD preview and actual recording had been mentioned previously (I believe Kholi did in his first tests)

Uwe Lansing
06-20-2009, 09:29 AM
... What you see in the LCD/ VF is very different between your previewing and the moment you start shooting. Try it.


Wait a minute - maybe i missed something. So you can´t evaluate the picture + right exposure before shooting? How do you know what it looks like?

PhilD
06-20-2009, 10:44 AM
Press the shutter half-way.

commanderspike
06-20-2009, 11:18 AM
I'd be interested to see ISO 1600 movie frames from people's new GH1s...

I get a 2nd GH1 tomorrow here in Taiwan, so may do a test concerning the newborn GH1 banding issue once I get back to England the following day.

Also worth mentioning, although obvious, that the noise reduction doesn't kick in until you hit record. So although you get a decent preview on the screen in creative movie mode, at the proper frame rate, it will look a lot noisier than the final recording.

In stills mode, I have noticed the sensor is very noisy at ISO 100 - yes, 100, with long exposures. With noise reduction turned off in fact the resulting image is unusable. I am alone in finding that unusual? I guess there is indeed some kind of external interference, maybe from the AF motors, LCD or OIS that causes this... because even on a long exposure, ISO 100 should not be noisy. Maybe I'm wrong.

Uwe Lansing
06-21-2009, 06:16 AM
...
I get a 2nd GH1 tomorrow here in Taiwan, so may do a test concerning the newborn GH1 banding issue once I get back to England the following day.
..........


Good idea. I´m particularly interested in whether the streaks occur mainly in higher iso values or already in lower ones like 100, 200, 400? Is there a way to avoid it?

Uwe Lansing
06-23-2009, 11:37 PM
Another good example of lowlight-banding:
http://www.vimeo.com/5287454

PappasArts
06-25-2009, 09:08 PM
The Banding I just saw in another clip reminds me of radio frequency interference. Panasonic should address this if it's a RFI issue...

.

dvbrother
06-25-2009, 11:10 PM
False. At night or say in a low light area it doesn't show you what you will shoot (in fact it never does unless there's some way to alter display settings).



That is not how my GH1 seems to be working when the dial is switched to Creative Motion Picture Mode (the icon that has the movie camera followed by the letter M). In that mode, both the LCD and LVF give me the same image during preview as when I hit record. On other modes (Still Pictures), the image seems "pumped up" to a higher ISO before hitting the button.

I discovered the Preview Button which is the button on the bottom to the right of the LCD. It has a trashcan icon on it. It shows you a preview of your aperture and shutter speed settings (thereby bypassing the "pumped up" look). You first have to go into the menu and select Preview Hold to "ON". Then hit the preview button, followed by the Display Button. The Display button then toggles On and Off the preview. This is a bit of a pain, but it replicates the Depth-of-Field Preview buttons on 35mm film SLR's.

Illya Friedman
06-25-2009, 11:37 PM
After spending more than a month working with the GH1 on a project. I can safely say that if you set the ISO at 400, your effective ISO is much, much higher.

If you have access to a light meter, set it at ISO 2500 and then your camera at 400 and take a look at the results, it's pretty stunning.

There's some T1.4, 400 ISO, 5:AM footage lit only by headlights and streetlights that is drop dead gorgeous.

Keep your GH1 at ISO 500 and below to avoid streaking, 400 ISO if you're going up to a big, big screen. As I mentioned 400 ISO is effectively 2500 ISO.

PappasArts
06-26-2009, 12:07 AM
After spending more than a month working with the GH1 on a project. I can safely say that if you set the ISO at 400, your effective ISO is much, much higher.

If you have access to a light meter, set it at ISO 2500 and then your camera at 400 and take a look at the results, it's pretty stunning.

There's some T1.4, 400 ISO, 5:AM footage lit only by headlights and streetlights that is drop dead gorgeous.

Keep your GH1 at ISO 500 and below to avoid streaking, 400 ISO if you're going up to a big, big screen. As I mentioned 400 ISO is effectively 2500 ISO.

I've seen footage filmed high ISO, and no banding, and then others who get it...
Panasonic has been told about this issue since the G1 came out last year. What's causing it is
not officially known. However to it looks like RFI issues to me. On photography forums they have theories
that it something to due with RFI or another unknown electrical interference...


.
Wasn't there a topic on using also true ISO settings like 160-320-640-1280 etc on the GH1. On the 5DMII there are comparisons showing that certain iso's are noisier..??

.

dvbrother
06-26-2009, 12:25 AM
Um...according to my light meter, 400 ISO equals about 400 ISO on the GH1. And the very same settings on my Olympus E-500 (f5.6, 400 ISO, same shutter speed as GH1) produce the same reading and the same exposure. Setting my light meter to 2500 and basing my cameras exposure to that produces an image that is very dark. I think your meter is not correct.

commanderspike
06-26-2009, 04:10 AM
Have new information about the banding issue.

On my two Japanese cameras, one on factory settings, one I'd used on a shoot, they had radically different noise issues. I tested this by leaving ISO on Auto and putting the shutter speed ridiculously high in a day light lit room.

In shadow areas of the room, the GH1 I'd had with me since May had awful red banding and streaks of noise.

The factory settings GH1 was much better, displaying very little visible noise and the noise wasn't bright red.

At first I thought maybe the sensors were different, one being better than the other.

But after comparing the camera settings I found iContrast was enabled 'full' on one, whilst it was off on the other.

Enabling iContrast resulted in the same noisy streaking on the other camera.

It seems to boost the sensor ISO output in dark areas of the image in an attempt to bring out more dynamic range and detail in the shadows, but of course this also results in the noise and banding issues we have seen here.

So... if you are still concerned about banding, turn off Intelligent Contrast, at least in movie mode when shooting at high ISOs.

sirk
06-26-2009, 04:12 AM
I had this issue too. but only on the first day. second day it vanished and iso 1600 was better than iso 400 the day before. strange.

commanderspike
06-26-2009, 04:15 AM
I had this issue too. but only on the first day. second day it vanished and iso 1600 was better than iso 400 the day before. strange.

You probably turned off Intelligent Contrast by the 2nd day :) Try it now... does 'on' return the banding issue in certain conditions, i.e. fast shutter, high ISO, or dark scenes?

PappasArts
06-26-2009, 11:02 AM
You probably turned off Intelligent Contrast by the 2nd day :) Try it now... does 'on' return the banding issue in certain conditions, i.e. fast shutter, high ISO, or dark scenes?



Well that's interesting. Does that feature come normally enabled in the factory settings? Not so ""intelligent"" after all...Possibly!

Illya Friedman
06-27-2009, 01:14 AM
Um...according to my light meter, 400 ISO equals about 400 ISO on the GH1. And the very same settings on my Olympus E-500 (f5.6, 400 ISO, same shutter speed as GH1) produce the same reading and the same exposure. Setting my light meter to 2500 and basing my cameras exposure to that produces an image that is very dark. I think your meter is not correct.

The scene is darker yes, but not incorrect. The response on the GH1 is far from linear. You see way more in the low IRE, and the knee is aggressive.

A simple test proves all. Get a small light source in a dark room, put something "on exposure", something 2-under, something way under "black", something 3-over, and something way over "white". Rate camera at 400 ISO. Shoot the 400 ISO on exposure, now re-meter at at 2500, and shoot your "on exposure" at that new stop. Watch both clips back to back on a calibrated monitor.

Which actually looks more correct? You're not looking for which looks brighter, or which allows you to see "more" in black. Which looks correct? Maybe a better way to phrase that is which looked more like your eye actually sees it. The toe of the GH1 is way more sensitive than the ISO rating.

I did this metering test with the DP and 2x other meters, and 2-different monitors. All read the same.

Uwe Lansing
06-27-2009, 03:36 AM
Have new information about the banding issue.
.........
The factory settings GH1 was much better, displaying very little visible noise and the noise wasn't bright red.
.....
Enabling iContrast resulted in the same noisy streaking on the other camera.
.....
So... if you are still concerned about banding, turn off Intelligent Contrast, at least in movie mode when shooting at high ISOs.

Good discovery. So is this now the ultimate solution for the streaks and lowlight banding? If you turn off "iContrast" streaks will never occur in lowlight? Can other owners confirm this?

PhilD
06-27-2009, 06:56 AM
Can't find iContrast on my GH1, only iExposure?

SMaurice
06-27-2009, 06:00 PM
Likewise! Can't seem to find iContrast, only iExposure, even did the RTFM thing and couldn't find iContrast in there either.

Might it have been possible that it was iExposure "off" and not iContrast that rectifies the banding situation?

Ken7
06-27-2009, 07:59 PM
There is no iContrast...at least on the U.S. model.

SMaurice
06-27-2009, 08:35 PM
If that's the case, is there any way to deal with this issue on US models?

Martti Ekstrand
06-28-2009, 12:45 AM
There is no iContrast...at least on the U.S. model.

There's no iContrast on PAL models either, I believe commanderspike ment I.Exposure aka intelligent exposure. It's demonstrated at the bottom here.
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/ia.html

SMaurice
06-28-2009, 08:30 AM
Thanks Martti!

commanderspike
06-28-2009, 12:09 PM
Yep i.Exposure, sorry for that confusion.

If you miss it's affect, you can always add it afterwards anyway. Shadow & Highlights in Premiere CS4 does a similar thing.

nathankw
06-30-2009, 02:49 AM
I've always had iExposure off (first thing I did when I got the camera!) and still got the low light streaks.

I'm getting the sense that the straking is getting less now - I'll try to do a repeat test in the same conditions.

From reading everything the RF radio interference explanation seems the most likely. It would explain why I got terrible results in my living room (surrounded by electronic equipment) whilst others are getting really clean results outside.

Uwe Lansing
06-30-2009, 08:13 AM
I've always had iExposure off (first thing I did when I got the camera!) and still got the low light streaks.
....
From reading everything the RF radio interference explanation seems the most likely. It would explain why I got terrible results in my living room (surrounded by electronic equipment) whilst others are getting really clean results outside.

Hmm... sounds bad. That would mean that there is no way to get rid of them in these situations, right?

AdrianF
07-01-2009, 02:27 AM
From reading everything the RF radio interference explanation seems the most likely. It would explain why I got terrible results in my living room (surrounded by electronic equipment) whilst others are getting really clean results outside.

Just reading through the manual this morning, while I'm waiting patiently for mine to arrive. On page 104, the second page covering movie recording, it clearly says :
"•The screen may be blacked out momentarily, or the unit may record noise due to static
electricity or electromagnetic waves etc. depending on the environment of the motion picture
recording. "
So it looks likely you're bang on, if Panasonic have decided to include this in the manual.

Uwe Lansing
07-02-2009, 04:20 AM
...
"•The screen may be blacked out momentarily, or the unit may record noise due to static electricity or electromagnetic waves etc. depending on the environment of the motion picture recording. "

....... Panasonic have decided to include this in the manual.

Really great by panasonic - they´ve thought of everything => missing/skipping frames + lowlight streaks => all mentioned in the manual. What about heavy aliasing + codec breaking in 1080p? Maybe this would be too much of "good things" in the manual.

John Caballero
07-02-2009, 04:50 AM
Well, it is that simple, if something happens and you were told in the manual it would, just don't be surprised when it does. Right?

Uwe Lansing
07-02-2009, 05:30 AM
...Right?

Right! Sorry for being ironic but i wanted to blow off some steam :-).

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-02-2009, 10:03 AM
Just reading through the manual this morning, while I'm waiting patiently for mine to arrive. On page 104, the second page covering movie recording, it clearly says :
"•The screen may be blacked out momentarily, or the unit may record noise due to static
electricity or electromagnetic waves etc. depending on the environment of the motion picture
recording. "
So it looks likely you're bang on, if Panasonic have decided to include this in the manual.

It would be useful if a GH1 owner could do some simple tests to confirm this further.

For example, if someone could find an environment/location in their home or office where this GH1 streaking issue occurs (e.g.: possibly holding the GH1 next to some powered-on electronic gear) and then testing to confirm whether or not -- just for experiments sake -- wrapping the GH1 up in one or more layers of aluminum foil (or "blackwrap") reduces or eliminates the streaks. Then remove the aluminum foil: Does the streaking reappear?

And if so, then please post some representative frame grabs here, together with the camera settings. It will be helpful to know if the problem tends to occur, for example, especially when the camera is "pushed" (high ISO, etc.)

If the streaks are caused by RF interference I wonder if a mesh fabric such as described in this article might be helpful when shooting in high-RF environments?:
http://robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9991-10008

Anyway, my point is not to make a big deal about this issue, but rather I'd be interested in nailing it down a bit more so we can anticipate & deal with it accordingly.

John Caballero
07-02-2009, 10:11 AM
And if the aluminum foil experiment fails take the camera still wrapped with it, pre-heat your oven to 350 degrees and put the camera inside for about 30 minutes, no more no less. If that doesn't take care of all the "problems" Panasonic decided to put into your brand new GH1 nothing ever will. LOL!

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-02-2009, 10:18 AM
... adding to my previous post:

Is the streaking in any way affected by the use/orientation of the GH1's LCD screen? For example, do the streaks occur if the LCD is OFF and folded-up against the back of the GH1? Are the streaks different/worse if the LCD is open, ON, and flat up against the back of the GH1 ... or swung out to the side of the GH1?

I'm curious if the LCD screen can cause RF interference, or possibly acts as a (partial) RF shield for the image sensor when the LCD is OFF & flat against the back of the cam?

Again, not trying to wave a yellow flag here, just curious if we can narrow down (or reliably reproduce) this "issue".

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-02-2009, 10:19 AM
And if the aluminum foil experiment fails take the camera still wrapped with it, pre-heat your oven to 350 degrees and put the camera inside for about 30 minutes, no more no less. If that doesn't take care of all the "problems" Panasonic decided to put into your brand new GH1 nothing ever will. LOL!

LOL! My copy of the GH1 manual says 375F for 1 hour ... :-)

John Caballero
07-02-2009, 10:36 AM
Sorry, my mistake, 375F it is!

PhilD
07-02-2009, 11:17 AM
Streaking has nothing to do with the LCD on or off.

I believe the noise reduction is just not perfect.

Just after you've taken a pic, it'll preview in the VF/LCD with tons of streaks. You're wondering why the hell the picture's so ugly. Then just a second after, press the Play (view) button to see the same picture. Much better now.

That's because the noise reduction seems to be processed after the time the pic is previewed (usually around 3 sec).

Same thing when you turn off noise reduction for slow shutter, you see it instantly afterwards. Otherwise with noise reduction on, a 30sec shutter pic will take 30secs to process

To explain it another way:
1) The instant preview of your pic has tons of streaks, vertical and horizontal, (under certain cimcumstances)
2) Then the processed pic you see in the Play mode is much better

bluesgeek
07-02-2009, 11:45 AM
If the streaks are caused by RF interference I wonder if a mesh fabric such as described in this article might be helpful when shooting in high-RF environments?:
http://robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9991-10008

A

Another source of RF shielding fabric. (http://www.rfsafe.com/product-7.html) I've used this to shield against cell phone radiation, and if you wrap your phone in one layer of it you lose your signal completely.

If RF interference is an issue, Panasonic should consider shielding the inner case of the GH1 in the vulnerable areas of the camera.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-02-2009, 12:18 PM
Has anyone already suggested in this thread that GH1 users should wear tinfoil hats while shooting? :-)

But, seriously, I guess the "real" solution to reducing image artifacts caused by RF interference is to use a faster (optional) lens instead of increasing ISO/gain, right?

(Although it would be good to know whether or not operating a GH1 while it's in a "bag" made of inexpensive see-thru RF shielding mesh fabric is a useful workaround for this issue. If it worked, it could be a simple quick-fix.)

Uwe Lansing
07-07-2009, 01:51 AM
Any solution in sight for the "lowlight banding/streaks" indoors?
http://www.vimeo.com/5287454

Tameside
07-07-2009, 02:40 AM
Any solution in sight for the "lowlight banding/streaks" indoors?
http://www.vimeo.com/5287454

Have you done the f/w upgrade, maybe its my imgination but since the f/w 1.1 am not seeing much banding at all in video upto iso1250, iso1600 some minor banding is evident, and I tested this at full zoom with x2 digi invoked in a single 60w bulb dark corner of a room and was gob-smacked at the results, S mode 1/30. Also with/without lcd makes no difference, but is steadier at 560mm in evf mode-hand-held!

Same for stills, banding seems to be gone upto iso2000, iso3200 I dont use becuase by iso2000 most fine detail is getting destroyed. The detail at iso1600 though is Nikon/Canon territory and now banding issue seems solved well again, its imressive stuff.

Uwe Lansing
07-07-2009, 03:17 AM
Have you done the f/w upgrade...

I´m not an owner of a gh1 so far but toying with the idea of buying one. Since i´m a lowlight fan this flaw would bug me a lot.


... since the f/w 1.1 am not seeing much banding at all in video upto iso1250, iso1600 some minor banding is evident, and I tested this at full zoom with x2 digi invoked in a single 60w bulb dark corner of a room and was gob-smacked at the results, S mode 1/30..... and now banding issue seems solved well again, its imressive stuff.

Good news. So, up to iso1250 not much banding/streaks indoors. But what means "not much at all" ? :-). Is it considerably better than the vimeo-clip above? Can you upload an example?

commanderspike
07-07-2009, 03:24 AM
I am also a low light fan but am happy with the GH1. Two points:

It's worth bearing in mind that unless you're using ISOs above 800, if you get banding your camera is either faulty or is suffering from electromagnetic interference. Below ISO 800 mine is fine in low light. ISO 800 on a video camera is pretty damned bright.

So at ISO 800 with a fast prime lens via an adapter, i.e. Canon 24mm F2.8 FD mount or a F1.4 50mm prime, low light on the GH1 can be improved hugely over the kit lens at F4.

Uwe Lansing
07-07-2009, 03:44 AM
...
It's worth bearing in mind that unless you're using ISOs above 800, if you get banding your camera is either faulty or is suffering from electromagnetic interference...

Thx Andrew, but these "electromagnetic interferences" indoors perplex me a bit. Aren´t in almost every room these interferences? And therefore in every indoor shot these streaks in artificial lowlight?

commanderspike
07-07-2009, 04:02 AM
Well there were a number of theories flying about. Sensor burn-in - I noticed my low light streaks were bad on the first day of ownership, but then went away. However when I got a 2nd GH1 brand new, that one did not have the same issue, it was ready to perform straight of the box. Then I started taking the interference issue seriously as a possible problem - that can't yet be ruled out. My bet is on mobile phones causing it. What other explaination, other than a faulty camera, is there?

I try to avoid shooting at anything over ISO 800 anyway.

It may even be to do with statically charged air or electric lighting, which the GH1's sensor picks up on and shows as noise.

Having said all that, now the disclaimer: I don't even notice the banding 99% of the time now... either I am ignoring it subconciously or something changed since the first day. I posted a still from a video I shot indoors in Taiwan at ISO 1600 - it was as clean as mineral water :)

Uwe Lansing
07-07-2009, 04:34 AM
....My bet is on mobile phones causing it. What other explaination, other than a faulty camera, is there?

That would make sense.


Having said all that, now the disclaimer: I don't even notice the banding 99% of the time now... either I am ignoring it subconciously or something changed since the first day. Perhaps... ok, your lips to gods ear.

squig
07-07-2009, 05:30 AM
I was shooting with my MKII the other day and I saw some similar banding on an underexposed shot outdoors overcast almost dusk. The interesting thing is I never saw this kind of banding with the D90 even shooting that same location in similar low light conditions so I'm thinking the banding is a H.264/AVCHD thing. Has anyone seen the banding shooting mjpeg?

commanderspike
07-07-2009, 05:47 AM
I was shooting with my MKII the other day and I saw some similar banding on an underexposed shot outdoors overcast almost dusk. The interesting thing is I never saw this kind of banding with the D90 even shooting that same location in similar low light conditions so I'm thinking the banding is a H.264/AVCHD thing. Has anyone seen the banding shooting mjpeg?

What ISO squig? Or fully auto?

I only see banding in the same circumstances as you (overcast sky, underexposed) when the ISO is above 800.

Uwe Lansing
07-07-2009, 06:01 AM
... Has anyone seen the banding shooting mjpeg?

No. The only thing i saw with the d90 were these terrible waves, stripes + flickering caused by fluorescent lights. But there was this "utterly fantastic workflow" of panning around a light until you get 1/50 (pal-land) to avoid it.

squig
07-07-2009, 09:47 AM
What ISO squig? Or fully auto?

I only see banding in the same circumstances as you (overcast sky, underexposed) when the ISO is above 800.

It was manual, can't recall the ISO probably between 800 and 1600. It only occurred for a few seconds out of about 5Gb of footage and it doesn't bother me much because I wouldn't normally underexpose like that. The H.264 produces some nasty compression artifacts in solid tone areas if I underexpose a shot.

nathankw
07-08-2009, 02:42 AM
It's worth bearing in mind that unless you're using ISOs above 800, if you get banding your camera is either faulty or is suffering from electromagnetic interference.

I'm beginning to wonder whether my camera is faulty then. I'm still seeing banding even at 200ISO. I've had the camera a few weeks, have done the update and use it in full manual mode.

I can't say that there's no EM fields around, but then when can you ever say that in the modern world.

Can anyone think of a good way of doing a fair comparison with someone elses camera? ie is there some way we can set up roughly similar light levels and shoot the same thing?

Failing that, are there any GH1 owners in central or NW London who wouldn't mind getting together to do a quick side by side comparison?

Uwe Lansing
07-08-2009, 04:28 AM
...
Can anyone think of a good way of doing a fair comparison with someone elses camera? ie is there some way we can set up roughly similar light levels and shoot the same thing?
...

That´s a good idea. I think this should be clarified. Slowly but surely the whole thing becomes pretty weird imho.

PhilD
07-08-2009, 06:07 AM
Maybe all units sold before a certain date have the problem so in 1-2 months from now I'll go to a camera store and compare my GH1 to the "new" ones.

OPHERBA
07-11-2009, 02:08 PM
Count me in.
New PAL GH1, Terrible vertical lines in low light from 400 ISO up (experimenting), using the kit lens.

Maybe tomorrow it will be better.....

rrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

Uwe Lansing
07-12-2009, 03:00 AM
...
Maybe tomorrow it will be better.....



Haha... yes, mystical things will happen overnight. - Only indoors? What kind of light? A german owner tried it out with different iso values:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkqeArinq7A&fmt=22
2 mobiles were switched on. I cant recognize any banding/streaks.

I can´t believe that it depends on different cameras. I suppose that every cam has it but it only occurs in a specific environment/light situation - I don´t know. But perhabs the proposal by nathankw would be the best way to find it out?


Can anyone think of a good way of doing a fair comparison with someone elses camera? ie is there some way we can set up roughly similar light levels and shoot the same thing?

PhilD
07-13-2009, 03:13 PM
Haha... yes, mystical things will happen overnight. - Only indoors? What kind of light? A german owner tried it out with different iso values:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkqeArinq7A&fmt=22
2 mobiles were switched on. I cant recognize any banding/streaks.

I can´t believe that it depends on different cameras. I suppose that every cam has it but it only occurs in a specific environment/light situation - I don´t know. But perhabs the proposal by nathankw would be the best way to find it out?



I filmed in a friggin church and there was banding... so, it has nothing to do with interference. :cry:

Ozpeter
07-13-2009, 03:52 PM
I filmed in a friggin church and there was banding... so, it has nothing to do with interference.Here churches are very popular with the mobile phone companies for mounting transmitter masts on, often cunningly concealed... then there's radio mics that get used a lot in churches... nowhere is safe these days!

JamesBenet
07-13-2009, 04:59 PM
I'm beginning to think that the banding is prevalent is most units. Look at the dpreview samples from the review. The indoor clips and the step less aperture clip are riddled by banding and it can't be ignored.

This is a big deal, maybe the camera is not shielded at all for interference or one of the internal components is causing it. The Microphones, EVF and or LCD could all be culprits.

Nighthawk
07-13-2009, 10:19 PM
I'm just now one of the lucky few that has 2 of these cams. I did a quick test with both cams in the same lighting, same settings, same kit lens. Yup, same banding issue. The difference between the two are negligible as far as my eye sees. Have not done the firmware update on either camera nor have I tried it with my prime lenses yet. I plan to do tests with a myriad of suggested settings found throughout this forum and see what happens.

OPHERBA
07-13-2009, 11:49 PM
What I can say for sure is: "WYSIWYG". I can easily see the vertical lines inside the VF when filming on low light. First I thought it is only a "VF thing" and the final output will be clean but I was mistaken.

Tameside
07-14-2009, 01:09 AM
Are you in CM, S, 1/30, 1/50, lock iso(unlock all option for iso, 1/3) lock iso at iso1000 max and work down, also invoke ae hold and lock exposure as well and compare. If your evening shooting you should have no problems with 1/50, daylight you'll need some light-stoppers though. See what you find, how low light are you wanting to go? I have some minimal horizontal banding at iso 1250 and 1600 only in low light. In good light well none.

Uwe Lansing
07-14-2009, 04:43 AM
...transmitter masts...

Not a bad idea. At least it would explain why the streaks sometimes occur and sometimes not. But for me personally it becomes more and more clearer that this flaw exist in every gh1. Time will tell. But if so pana must fix it asap.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-14-2009, 07:58 AM
I'm just now one of the lucky few that has 2 of these cams. I did a quick test with both cams in the same lighting, same settings, same kit lens. Yup, same banding issue. ...

Hi Nighthawk: Especially since you seem to have 2 GH1s which exhibit this issue, and also a "location" where it seems to occur, please do the test with aluminum foil that I describe here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1679526&postcount=71

The purpose of this test is not to find a way we can all use the GH1 but to determine whether or not the issue you see (at least) is caused by external EMF interference.

Let us know what you find out. Thanks!

P.S.: You might wish to ignore John Caballaro's advise to put your foil-wrapped GH1s in the oven .... :2vrolijk_08:

PappasArts
07-14-2009, 12:12 PM
What if it's a coating issue on the sensors glass? That might be why the issue deteriorates over heat up and down over time of use. They knock out these things so quick, what if the coating is not cured!

I say this only because; people report the problem disappearing after a awhile of use.

That's not possible with digital circuits, they work or they don't ( that's why the burn in time to see if it fails or passes with IC's).

It's these slow diminishing lines over time during hours of use reports we keep hearing; sound more like an analog action, which a coating would be akin too!

Most likely a stupid hypothesis.....

PhilD
07-14-2009, 12:29 PM
Personally I'll throw my GH1 over the window and see if the issue persists.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-14-2009, 01:31 PM
Since I don't have a GH1 for testing, I'm not sure if the following applies to its Creative/Movie Mode or not (the little icons in the user manual make my head hurt).

I just re-read this entire thread (that was fun!) and I don't believe anyone mentioned what Panasonic says on pages 88 & 89 in the user manual:

"... Noise may become visible when you take pictures in dark places. To avoid picture noise, we recommend setting [NOISE RED.] towards [+] or setting the items except [NOISE RED.] towards [-] to take pictures. ..."

I think this means turn Contrast, Sharpness and Saturation down, and turn Noise Reduction up.

If you set these before recording and they playback directly from the GH1 to a HDTV, does this reduce/remove the "noise/banding" issue we've been discussing?

(Playback on a HDTV may be more useful than watching on the GH1's LCD.)

Or, does adjusting these settings just make a mess of the GH1's video in other ways (gets too blurry, washed out, etc.)?

Or, do these features not seem to apply or have much affect on this issue?

PhilD
07-14-2009, 02:28 PM
these features not seem to apply or have much affect on this issue

Nighthawk
07-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Hi Nighthawk: Especially since you seem to have 2 GH1s which exhibit this issue, and also a "location" where it seems to occur, please do the test with aluminum foil that I describe here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1679526&postcount=71

The purpose of this test is not to find a way we can all use the GH1 but to determine whether or not the issue you see (at least) is caused by external EMF interference.

Let us know what you find out. Thanks!

P.S.: You might wish to ignore John Caballaro's advise to put your foil-wrapped GH1s in the oven .... :2vrolijk_08:

Peter, I'll give that test you suggested a try ASAP but before trying I'll just mention that there must be something to that theory. The other night I was watching a DVD on my digital projector and brought out my cam to play with(wasn't a very good flick obviously). You can not imagine how things looked on the LCD then. I blamed it on the weird lighting it was dealing with considering the only light source was what was cast by the projector but, in hindsight, the amount of electrical gear hard at work in that room could easily be the culprit.

John's suggestion wouldn't apply to me as I mostly BBQ.

OPHERBA
07-14-2009, 03:57 PM
I was disappointed finding the vertical lines also in day time footage (1080/25)

It looks like it is more evident on more or less even surface color.

Johnnie




http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/412/1247611800.jpg

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/412/1247611725.jpg

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/412/1247612065.jpg

Nighthawk
07-14-2009, 04:16 PM
What if it's a coating issue on the sensors glass? That might be why the issue deteriorates over heat up and down over time of use. They knock out these things so quick, what if the coating is not cured!

I say this only because; people report the problem disappearing after a awhile of use.

That's not possible with digital circuits, they work or they don't ( that's why the burn in time to see if it fails or passes with IC's).

It's these slow diminishing lines over time during hours of use reports we keep hearing; sound more like an analog action, which a coating would be akin too!

Most likely a stupid hypothesis.....

...but I hope you're right. I've had the first cam for 2 weeks now and nothing's 'burnt' in yet. Still have the issue. I need to test more but it all seems to me like it's exposure levels i.e. something fine at 640 ISO when set to, say, 125 will of course not just be underexposed but will produce the banding to a certain degree and in conjunction with that a ghosting of images with the reds and areas of high contrasts with fairly slow camera movements. Like Peter I'm going through the threads and try a number of the suggested settings and see if I can get any improvement including Kholi's suggestion of keeping the camera recording for hours at a time in low light to see if I feel the 'burn'.

Nighthawk
07-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Wow, Opherba, even in daylight shots. I still haven't had a chance to get up and personal with any of my footage yet. I'm in pre-production for an upcoming shoot. I may just to hand off to my DP about these issues and hope he finds an answer.

JamesBenet
07-14-2009, 04:42 PM
Those daylight shots are very worrisome, I assume that is with the kit lens. A fast prime would help but it totally is a deal breaker. This is a serious issue for quality work as a B roll cam.

Aghhh 5D, GH1, 5D , GH1 driving me crazy.

PappasArts
07-14-2009, 05:48 PM
I was disappointed finding the vertical lines also in day time footage (1080/25)

It looks like it is more evident on more or less even surface color.

Johnnie



You need need to document this just as you have here with visual descriptions and get it to a service center... Panasonic needs to see it in their face before they'll do anything....

All it takes is proving it to them! Trust me, I have done this with Sony, Canon and Panasonic in the past. This is where the wheel that squeaks the loudest, gets the grease.....

.

holdingpattern
07-14-2009, 09:52 PM
My camera also has this problem. The banding, both vertical and horizontal becomes apparent around iso400 and can get pretty obnoxious by iso1600. I have found that if I overexpose (at least by the camera's metering system) the banding is dramatically less visible. At one stop overexposed, the banding is almost completely gone (still there but very faint at iso1600). If underexpose by 1 stop the banding is obnoxious and makes the video painful to watch. At the "proper" exposure, the banding is very noticeable if still faint.

I'm not a video expert, and all I have here to test with at the moment is iMovie, so I have no idea how the overexposed video would handle in post, but it looks usable in the sense I could show it to relatives and they would probably not notice any banding and would think the video looked wonderful. I just have to be careful of clipping the highlights a little earlier.

Is this consistent with other people's experiences?

nathankw
07-15-2009, 03:17 AM
Is this consistent with other people's experiences?

Yes. It's definitely most evident in underexposed areas, even if the frame as a whole is well exposed.

I've even seen it on reasonably bright footage (inside a well lit restaurant in daylight) with a 1.8 prime lens at 200 iso. It's most visible on flat underlit surface, but can also be seen on skin (if in shadow) which is really ugly.

jamesjjs
07-15-2009, 04:30 AM
Yeah - I just about had it. Got this thing since 1st July - and have been testing like crazy! ISO 100,200,400,640,800,1000,1600.... 720p, 1080p.... 25,30,40,50 frames - overexposed, underexposed, full manual, OIS on/off, iexposure on/off. Indoors, outdoors, manual focus, continuous focus, all the film modes, different lighting, different white balance, pixel refresh, sensor cleaning, shoot w/o lens on/off, color space s RGB/ Adobe RGB - got the same results as you guys. Today I tried the burn in thing - set the camera on tripod and let it run for 3 hours straight, underexposed in lowlight. Yesterday it was about 2 hours. I was tempted to buy a nokton 40mm f1.4 but common sense prevailed - what good would any great lens do if the streaking still appears?!
But I do note outdoors is great - in very challenging light it is fabulous. So this thing brings tears of joy AND tears of frustration!
Please anybody.... if you have any solution that works.... I have more vertical smear on the lefthand, and on occasion, consistent banding at the bottom of the screen. I also experience horizontal banding. Sometimes when the whole scene is evenly underexposed, the effect is like looking through a wire mesh - some sort of silkscreen.
Since the time I got it til now, it is not getting better - or at least my mind would like to think it is!

OPHERBA
07-15-2009, 05:52 AM
Camera is back to the shop.
Pictures describing the problem were send to Panasonic.

Will decide shortly if to try another one or to move on.

I don't believe in voodoo (let the camera run until the problem is gone)...

I am starting to think you North American guys are lucky not to have the camera in large quantities yet...


Johnnie

Ken7
07-15-2009, 08:55 AM
I guess I'm fortunate, I haven't seen this issue.

PappasArts
07-15-2009, 11:23 AM
Camera is back to the shop.
Pictures describing the problem were send to Panasonic.

Will decide shortly if to try another one or to move on.

I don't believe in voodoo (let the camera run until the problem is gone)...

I am starting to think you North American guys are lucky not to have the camera in large quantities yet...


Johnnie


Excellent! Putting this repair service case in record is beneficial to everyone. Giving them photos to document this prevents them from refuting the issue exists, which they would take with, ( path of least Resistance ) if you don't stick it in their face. Make sure you keep track of all your interactions & discussions with whom who have correspondence with. This way others on DVXuser can build the case on top of yours when they send their cameras in, and confront them on the same issue. Good job.... Thanks!

Being proactive is the key to getting this resolved if it's a rectifiable issue..


.

holdingpattern
07-15-2009, 11:56 AM
From my searches the banding looks very much liked Fixed Pattern Noise (do a google search for more info on this). You can find images from the D3 and D700 that have a very similar appearance at high ISO. High iso for those cameras is 6400 though. The hypothesis is that the gain amplifiers for each row (column?) readout from the sensor need to be exactly calibrated to each other. If they are not some amplify a bit more and in an underexposed image the signal to noise ratio is lower so noise is exaggerated in the rows with higher amplification. Can a firmware update adjust the gain on the sensor line readouts? In the videos I take location, size of the banding is fairly consistent. Can anyone debunk this theory?

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 12:05 PM
From my searches the banding looks very much liked Fixed Pattern Noise (do a google search for more info on this). You can find images from the D3 and D700 that have a very similar appearance at high ISO. High iso for those cameras is 6400 though. The hypothesis is that the gain amplifiers for each row (column?) readout from the sensor need to be exactly calibrated to each other. If they are not some amplify a bit more and in an underexposed image the signal to noise ratio is lower so noise is exaggerated in the rows with higher amplification. Can a firmware update adjust the gain on the sensor line readouts? In the videos I take location, size of the banding is fairly consistent. Can anyone debunk this theory?

Man, I'm open to anything right now. I've tried the black wrap suggested by Peter with little success but I'm not in the same lighting situation that I was before. I'll have to retry tonight. I'm trying to keep everything as consistent as I can. I'm also trying the suggested NR up with everything else down while recording for hours straight. This is where I'd kill for LIVE out right now. Would be much easier to judge in real time what's going on.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 12:30 PM
Looks like fixed pattern noise to me on mine. Thing is, it shows up at *every* ISO. Underexpose by 2 EV and it shows up on skin, faintly. By 3 EV it's quite noticeable. Expose at what the camera thinks is "proper" exposure and it doesn't show up unless you're at a crazy high ISO.

PappasArts
07-15-2009, 12:46 PM
Man, I'm open to anything right now. I've tried the black wrap suggested by Peter with little success but I'm not in the same lighting situation that I was before. I'll have to retry tonight. I'm trying to keep everything as consistent as I can. I'm also trying the suggested NR up with everything else down while recording for hours straight. This is where I'd kill for LIVE out right now. Would be much easier to judge in real time what's going on.


Why don't you send it to a service department with evidence showing the problem. Complaining, Aluminum foil, mystic tribal sayonses won't rectify the issue.

It's an issue built in the camera, nothing you can do about it personally. However, if you get it to Panasonic with adjoining evidence to substantiate your issue, this will start a case file. We can then keep track of this, and build a very strong case with multiple service cases on this to get it resolved.


.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-15-2009, 12:50 PM
Looks like fixed pattern noise to me on mine. Thing is, it shows up at *every* ISO. Underexpose by 2 EV and it shows up on skin, faintly. By 3 EV it's quite noticeable. Expose at what the camera thinks is "proper" exposure and it doesn't show up unless you're at a crazy high ISO.

Hi Barry & others: Just for clarification, can the GH1's REC MODE menu ISO INCREMENTS feature be used when recording video?

[100]/[125]/[160]/[200]/[250]/[320]/[400]/[500]/[640]/[800]/[1000]/[1250]/[1600]/[2000]/[2500]/[3200]

If so, is the noise/banding issue favorably affected by using, say, ISO 125 or ISO 320 etc. instead of ISO 100 or 400?

I dimly recall maybe this was discussed awhile back, but maybe some of these in-between ISO settings are less noisy than the "normal" ISO settings -- that is, if they're available for shooting video at all.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 12:59 PM
Why don't you send it to a service department with evidence showing the problem. Complaining, Aluminum foil, mystic tribal sayonses won't rectify the issue.

It's an issue built in the camera, nothing you can do about it personally. However, if you get it to Panasonic with adjoining evidence to substantiate your issue, this will start a case file. We can then keep track of this, and build a very strong case with multiple service cases on this to get it resolved.


.

Normally I'd be all over your suggestion as this is pretty big issue but I start shooting with these cams next week. I've got no choice but to plow ahead and carefully watch my lighting situations while working on a possible solution to lessen the problem.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 01:06 PM
It happens at all ISOs. And yes those intermediate ISOs are available in video.

I'm not sure what the idea behind the "some in-between ISOs are less noisy than certain steps" comes from. It looks to me to be universally to be noisier the higher the ISO goes. But even at the higher ISOs noise is very mild compared to something like an HD100 or HVX200.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 01:07 PM
Normally I'd be all over your suggestion as this is pretty big issue but I start shooting with these cams next week. I've got no choice but to plow ahead and carefully watch my lighting situations while working on a possible solution to lessen the problem.
You can see it in the viewfinder. I haven't found a situation where the FPN shows up on the bigscreen TV, where it didn't also manifest itself in the LCD or viewfinder.

The LCD is amazingly sharp and really shows a lot of detail.

If you train yourself to see the lines, you'll see them in the field.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 01:07 PM
Hi Barry & others: Just for clarification, can the GH1's REC MODE menu ISO INCREMENTS feature be used when recording video?

[100]/[125]/[160]/[200]/[250]/[320]/[400]/[500]/[640]/[800]/[1000]/[1250]/[1600]/[2000]/[2500]/[3200]

If so, is the noise/banding issue favorably affected by using, say, ISO 125 or ISO 320 etc. instead of ISO 100 or 400?

I dimly recall maybe this was discussed awhile back, but maybe some of these in-between ISO settings are less noisy than the "normal" ISO settings -- that is, if they're available for shooting video at all.

Yeah, Kholi talked about this a lot. Can't go past 1600 ISO(or at least I can't) and I've tried what's termed 'native' ISOs like 160, 320, 640 etc. with much the same results.

pailes
07-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Looks like fixed pattern noise to me on mine. Thing is, it shows up at *every* ISO. Underexpose by 2 EV and it shows up on skin, faintly. By 3 EV it's quite noticeable. Expose at what the camera thinks is "proper" exposure and it doesn't show up unless you're at a crazy high ISO.
Is it always the same pattern? I have no GH1 yet, but it sounds to me like this could be corrected in post to a certain extent.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 01:23 PM
What I'm seeing are vertical streaks in fixed positions, usually visible in lighter tones or caucasian skin tones, and the streaks are of usually red or green. The closer to proper exposure the fainter they are, the further underexposed you get the more visible they are.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-15-2009, 01:38 PM
It happens at all ISOs. And yes those intermediate ISOs are available in video.

I'm not sure what the idea behind the "some in-between ISOs are less noisy than certain steps" comes from. It looks to me to be universally to be noisier the higher the ISO goes. But even at the higher ISOs noise is very mild compared to something like an HD100 or HVX200.

Thanks, Barry.

Partly my interest in confirming noise characteristics at all ISO settings is to determine which GH1 ISO is really the least noisy. I believe there were discussions online that some other DSLR actually had lower-value ISO settings which were found to be noisier than some of its higher value ISO settings.

As to which is likeliest to be the least noisy, ISO 100 might seem the obvious answer. But until someone tested it there was the possibility that ISO 100 on the GH1 could actually be like -3db gain on a broadcast camera: According to Art Adams, -3db can be problematic compared to using 0db. See:
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/no_pain_no_gain/

Counter-intuitive, but he makes a good case.

But from what GH1 users are saying here, ISO 100 really is the least noisy setting on the GH1. Good to know!

OPHERBA
07-15-2009, 01:39 PM
-Vertical lines can not be fix in post
-WYSIWYG, the VF will show them very clearly as Barry said.

I was looking at some more footage I took this weekend and it looks like that on 720p mode the lines hardly exist at list outdoor.

Barry and other respected members of the community, any logical/technical explanation???

Thanks.

Johnnie

pailes
07-15-2009, 01:54 PM
-Vertical lines can not be fix in post
Of course they can be fixed in post. You just need the right filter to do it. Even if the filter does not exist yet, you would be surprised what Digital Signal Processing can achieve.

OPHERBA
07-15-2009, 02:23 PM
Dear pailes, could not fix this with my Windows Movie maker:

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/412/1247692777.jpg


All kidding aside, it should not be there in the first place, or at least so severe.


Thanks.

Johnnie

holdingpattern
07-15-2009, 02:38 PM
Looks like fixed pattern noise to me on mine. Thing is, it shows up at *every* ISO. Underexpose by 2 EV and it shows up on skin, faintly. By 3 EV it's quite noticeable. Expose at what the camera thinks is "proper" exposure and it doesn't show up unless you're at a crazy high ISO.

I concur with this assessment on my camera.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-15-2009, 02:57 PM
Looks like fixed pattern noise to me on mine. Thing is, it shows up at *every* ISO. Underexpose by 2 EV and it shows up on skin, faintly. By 3 EV it's quite noticeable. Expose at what the camera thinks is "proper" exposure and it doesn't show up unless you're at a crazy high ISO.

Just wondering: Is it favorably affected by Film Mode settings such as Smooth or Nostalgic? Does it disappear in any of the B&W modes (in other words, does it occur only when recording color video)?

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 03:06 PM
Comforting to see that all of us that have this problem, indeed, have the same problem but why do some like Ken7, and I'm assuming others, not have this problem? Different batches or suppliers for the sensors? This issue is more serious to me than the 'mud' issue in that I planned to be very cautious as far as camera movement goes. There doesn't seem to be a workaround at the moment other than supplying more light than I particularly envisioned using for my shoot.
For what it's worth I'll be emailing Panasonic with a link to this thread on the outside chance it will be looked at.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 03:07 PM
Just wondering: Is it favorably affected by Film Mode settings such as Smooth or Nostalgic? Does it disappear in any of the B&W modes (in other words, does it occur only when recording color video)?

That's one thing I've never tried yet. I'll give it a shot.

commanderspike
07-15-2009, 03:17 PM
I don't think mine is that severe, indeed I have never noticed until tonight when I began looking for it. It only shows up when I underexpose and stop down the lens quite dramatically.

When I do that, on white surfaces there seems to be a set pattern over the image. It doesn't really move and it isn't speckled like noise, it just hangs there.

I think this will be something to do with the CMOS readout, some kind of phenomenon related to the CMOS technology.

Going to look it up...

commanderspike
07-15-2009, 03:29 PM
As far back as 2004 when CMOS sensors progressed to the point where you could use them in DSLRS, people had a few banding issues with the Canon 20D.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=11300831

The gist of it seems to be:

A CMOS sensor analogue to digital convertors are on each row and uses amplifiers which are linked together, and sometimes they spill over onto adjacent rows causing the banding effect. Also, on very fast CMOS sensors like the one in the GH1, according to Wikipedia it uses gate materials on the rows which lower the voltage threshold. I don't understand the engineering but it's necessary to speed up the read out of the sensor. However without a strong current, the current can 'leak'.

The problem happens regardless of what ISO, etc. you select. The PDF document linked to in that thread also suggest that certain CMOS chip wafers coming off the factory production line are more prone than others.

Panasonic haven't been making CMOS for as long as Canon. Maybe they still have some issues to dial out. Performance is excellent, but the GH1 can have as many artefacts as an Egyptian tomb if not handled correctly. Don't underexpose... darken in post?

holdingpattern
07-15-2009, 03:32 PM
That's one thing I've never tried yet. I'll give it a shot.

I did this already, and no I do not think the problem was "eliminated" when you go into the different film modes it is just changing the tone curve applied to the images after the readout. If my memory serves me correctly, depending upon the situation it could make the banding better or worse, when the tone curve was steeper and the image more contrasty (i.e. the vibrant setting) the noise becomes ever so slightly more apparent. With less contrasty modes with more gentle tone curves (nostalgic) the banding is a little less obvious but it was still there. As always there is the caveat: I only shot one scene though to test this so I don't know how this problem plays out under different lighting/exposure situations.

EDIT to clarify I think the film mode either brings out or hides noise already in the image, it doesn't reduce it.

delaney
07-15-2009, 03:33 PM
Or just use ND/CPL

PappasArts
07-15-2009, 03:33 PM
Dear pailes, could not fix this with my Windows Movie maker:

All kidding aside, it should not be there in the first place, or at least so severe.
Thanks.

Johnnie



WOW, that's unacceptable by any means!

For all you owners out there, document, gather proof and get your cameras to a service center. It's great to have this discussion here, however it needs to at Panasonic too! Bitching about it here is going to help anyone or get this resolved. I would be so in the LA service center with 14x17 print outs of bad frames along with video to prove my case if this was my GH1; that I don't have!

This really sucks, and being that I have a camera on order which I was prematurely charged for and still don't have ( thanks panny-direct ) this is most disturbing.....

Grrrrr!


We need to setup a Blog and twitter for this.. Who wants to start it up. This is the best way to globally go at this!



I also wouldn't blame CMOS fully; I can shoot with the 5DMII at 12,800iso and it doesn't have banding near as bad as this. Let alone 3200ISO on the 5DMII.

.


.

commanderspike
07-15-2009, 03:57 PM
Dear pailes, could not fix this with my Windows Movie maker:

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/412/1247692777.jpg


All kidding aside, it should not be there in the first place, or at least so severe.


Thanks.

Johnnie

What ISO, shutter speed and aperture. And was it under exposed a few EV?

If you have iExposure turned on... disable it. In certain conditions it exaggerates the natural CMOS banding phenomena.

Usually it is either none existent or very slight, aka 5D MII.

My GH1 with iExposure (under exposed):

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/banding.jpg

My GH1 without iExposure (under exposed):

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/nobanding2.jpg

Anything normally exposed is 100% clean with iExposure turned off:

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/nobanding.jpg

That's all at ISO 1600, full HD.

I've not had this banding problem effect any of my footage, because I never shoot with iExposure turned on.
It's not really a camera fault - more a side effect of using iExposure whilst forcing the camera to underexposure.
This pushes iExposure into overdrive, amplifying the CMOS sensor so that it goes mad.
Don't be daft and underexpose, then boost the CMOS sensor with an in-camera software trick. It doesn't make sense!

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 04:14 PM
Just wondering: Is it favorably affected by Film Mode settings such as Smooth or Nostalgic? Does it disappear in any of the B&W modes (in other words, does it occur only when recording color video)?
That's a whole lotta testing ... you're talking about (randomly guessing) a dozen different film modes, multiplied by 20 (for each combination of -2 to +2 for the various settings in the film modes) multiplied by 13 (for the different ISO combinations) multiplied by 16 iris settings on the lens. That's almost 50,000 combinations.

And I have to ship the camera out tomorrow morning.

Look, for everyone panicking: the GH1 is not perfect. If it cost $10,000 I would throw it against the wall. For $1500 including this particular lens, it's a steal. I have grown to appreciate it 100x more since I've been doing HMC150 vs. GH1 testing.

I do not like the long-GOP issues, I hate long-GoP under all circumstances. I do not like the CMOS issues, I generally hate CMOS complications (although this sure isn't bad, jello-wise!) And I don't like the FPN (fixed pattern noise). Of all the complaints, I think the FPN is most troublesome to me from a straight image-quality assessment, mainly because I can't find a way to get around it. It reminds me very, very much of the JVC split-screen effect -- it shows up, it ruins shots, but if you know when it happens and you're on the lookout for it, you can usually avoid it.

But I still point out -- this thing is absolutely mind-blowing at its price point.

The GH1 embodies pretty much all the compromises I hated about the early HDV camcorders, but the fact is those opened up HD recording to a whole new market who never could have afforded it, and -- handled properly -- some great footage was done on them.

The GH1 is a 4K sensor recording razor-crisp 1080p footage that will, I wager, rival Red One 3K footage for sharpness, with cinema-style DOF and interchangeable lenses with adapters for every cheap lens ever made, and it does 60P also, and it also has an intraframe 30P mode.

You want better? There are better cameras out there. They cost more. That's the way it is.

You want to grab pitchforks and storm the gates of the company as if it's the enemy? Good luck with that.

As for me, I'm gonna spend my time in a perhaps more productive way, trying to figure out what the issues are and how we can overcome them. If the company responds to a request for a fix, great. If they don't, we'll still have figured out ways around it.

As far as the banding goes, I'm thinking it's showing up in a certain IRE range. I just wish this thing had live output so I could pipe it to a waveform monitor and see if it's just showing up in a certain range. If it is, then the solution (well, the workaround) becomes: try not to have a flat block of image (a white sheet of paper, a fairly flatly-lit face or arm, a white t-shirt, etc) at that IRE level.

Which is the same solution I use for the HVX/HPX series: the noise that shows up is worse at the 10-20 IRE level. So I try to avoid having whole swaths of the image at that IRE level, and guess what -- my images look great! The GH1 looks too good to just give up on, let's instead find out how to work with it.

Unless of course someone doesn't want to do that, in which case I'd like to point out that there's a Canon 5D Mark II or a Nikon D90 or a Pentax whatever-it-is available with your name on it. And yeah, they're all going to have their own sets of issues.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 04:17 PM
... and while I was typing out that lengthy essay, commanderspike comes in and posts photos to show exactly what I'm talking about.

Learn it, shoot at the right values, and you can minimize the issues. However, it's always going to be there at a certain brightness level in swaths of flat color, I believe. As an example, look at the shadow in the cup in the last picture -- the banding is still there, probably because it's at that certain IRE level that causes the banding to show.

But obviously, just getting proper exposure improved the quality of the photos 10,000%.

I've not had this banding problem effect any of my footage, because I never shoot with iExposure turned on.
It's not really a camera fault - more a side effect of using iExposure whilst forcing the camera to underexposure.
This pushes iExposure into overdrive, amplifying the CMOS sensor so that it goes mad.



Don't be daft and underexpose, then boost the CMOS sensor with an in-camera software trick. It doesn't make sense!
Exactly.

Ken7
07-15-2009, 04:21 PM
Comforting to see that all of us that have this problem, indeed, have the same problem but why do some like Ken7, and I'm assuming others, not have this problem? Different batches or suppliers for the sensors? This issue is more serious to me than the 'mud' issue in that I planned to be very cautious as far as camera movement goes. There doesn't seem to be a workaround at the moment other than supplying more light than I particularly envisioned using for my shoot.
For what it's worth I'll be emailing Panasonic with a link to this thread on the outside chance it will be looked at.

It might be that I haven't done as much low light stuff as you guys with this camera. But I posted awhile back that this phenomena is something I've always seen with CMOS-based camcorders I've owned. It's a vertical streaking that every unit I've owned has displayed.

The bad news is that I honestly don't think there will be any firmware fix for this if it's essentially the same issue that plagues regular camcorders in low light. I'd bet that most of you guys have not owned CMOS-based camcorders or you probably wouldn't have been surprised by this issue.

In the world of videography, the pill you take to cure this ill is LIGHT. If you want quality video, a point is reached where if you don't add light, what you see is what you get.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 04:30 PM
Have to agree with everything you say, Barry, especially about the FPN issue. Hope you're not thinking I'm ungrateful for the camera and the price point attached with it because in every other aspect I couldn't ask for a better cam but this one issue is the tough one for me. If you have anymore info into the IRE levels being the answer I'd love to hear it as I'm usually comfortable with workarounds. It's obviously not my intention to shoot underexposed footage but that's inherent in night shooting which is what I'm in for soon.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 04:31 PM
In the world of videography, the pill you take to cure this ill is LIGHT. If you want quality video, a point is reached where if you don't add light, what you see is what you get.

You're spot on there, Ken7. I'll be packing a bigger light kit for sure. :)

commanderspike
07-15-2009, 04:38 PM
There isn't a single technology around today that can't be improved in some way.

The same goes, even, for the GH1!

CMOS is the way it is. If you wanna under expose, use ND filters and low ISOs, not closed aperture and high shutter speed which adversely effect the sensor.

Even in stills mode, you get banding if you push the camera too hard. I still recommend keeping iExposure off - it's a good for nothing scoundrel! Let the optics and sensor run free and work their magic.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 04:46 PM
There isn't a single technology around today that can't be improved in some way.

The same goes, even, for the GH1!

CMOS is the way it is. If you wanna under expose, use ND filters and low ISOs, not closed aperture and high shutter speed which adversely effect the sensor.

Even in stills mode, you get banding if you push the camera too hard. I still recommend keeping iExposure off - it's a good for nothing scoundrel! Let the optics and sensor run free and work their magic.

Thanks to your earlier input one of the first things I ever did was to turn the iExposure off when I got the cam.

Back to the link you provided it was mentioned that chips straight off the factory line were found to be more problematic. In your opinion does the 'burn in' theory hold any water considering what that article was saying?

commanderspike
07-15-2009, 04:49 PM
Unfortunately not, any more. The burn in theory was simply a misunderstanding on my part, due to not realising I had turned off Intelligent Exposure the day after I got my GH1. Sometimes I also turn off my own Intelligence mode :)

Maybe the circuits and amps settle into place due to heat expansion over time, but I really do think the banding is down 25% each down to iExposure & high ISOs and 50% down to under exposure.

Nighthawk
07-15-2009, 04:55 PM
Sometimes I also turn off my own Intelligence mode :)



God, don't I know that one. Thanks for the info and feedback. So it's back to a more elaborate lighting schemes. My DP is going to love me.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 04:55 PM
Hope you're not thinking I'm ungrateful for the camera and the price point attached with it because in every other aspect I couldn't ask for a better cam but this one issue is the tough one for me.
No worries at all -- everyone can have their own priorities and that's the reason the free market provides so many choices. I just roll my eyes at the "class action lawsuit" crowd.

Like I said up above, this FPN thing is the one that's annoying me the most too. Well, that and the "monet" effect but I'm wondering if they're not somehow related, so I'm lumping them together until I discover otherwise.


It's obviously not my intention to shoot underexposed footage but that's inherent in night shooting which is what I'm in for soon.
Yep, but the key is to keep an eye on the VF or LCD for streaking. You'll see it if it's there. So look for it. And it typically only seems to affect swaths of flat image; you'll easily see it on a sheet of paper in your shot, you won't see it nearly as noticeably on a field of grass or trees. If the image is "broken up" by lots of detail the streaks get nicely hidden, if the image is largely flat, you'll see it. Shooting a cheap indie film underexposed in a room with white walls might be the "perfect storm" for seeing streaks.

But, again, train your eye to see 'em in the viewfinder and you'll know and have a chance to fix it before you get the footage in the can.

Unfortunately the only "fix" I can offer right now is -- change your exposure. Lift it up a little and you might find the lines disappearing.

I'll keep looking for other potential fixes too, and I hope the combined forces of GH1 owners (few as we may be) will have an eye towards discovering the combinations that reveal the streaks, and the combinations that obscure or hide the streaks, and will make that knowledge known so GH1 shooters can all benefit from the testing and knowledge.

Ozpeter
07-15-2009, 05:07 PM
why do some like Ken7, and I'm assuming others, not have this problem?Heh, having now gone looking for it in footage taken for the purpose, I see it. I tried filming towards a dark corner of my room here (my recording studio packed with equipment spitting out interference, however) and doing a very, very slow pan. What I then see it as if the video had been taken through a window which had been slightly streaked vertically when being cleaned - the bands stay put relative to the frame, and the image moves under them.

Personally I wouldn't dream of approaching a service centre on the issue. I'd say it's the way it is. I recall endless debates about similar banding forums related to another DSLR (I now forget which) with people saying it happens, or doesn't, and whether it matters or not, etc.

jamesjjs
07-15-2009, 05:11 PM
Ok - So I mounted the Gh1 on the tripod, 1600 ISO, 30fps and pointed it out the window into the night scenery. For eight hours. I used the mains, left the camera on, closed the lcd flip out screen. And that's it - no need to press "record" - now I get VISIBLY reduced banding - in the order of like 60-70 percent for the lower ISOs, but for 1600 to 1000 ISO, I'd say about 40 percent.
Of course, your mileage may vary - and thank you all so much for sharing - I hope this helps you.

Tonight I will do this again just before bed... and report back if any improvement

PappasArts
07-15-2009, 05:11 PM
I just roll my eyes at the "class action lawsuit" crowd.



The class actions suit crap is stupid and a wasted approach. As I said; the best approach is to collect all the evidence and images that show the issue. Make Panasonic service dept aware of the issue and just keep in touch with them. Setup a blog to profile the issue to other GH1 owners so they can learn what to do in getting their cameras accessed.

When the 5DMark II came out it had a black spot issue etc. The noise it generated everywhere got Canon to get the ball rolling to rectify the issue. Same thing here. However lawsuits, that's stupid!


Seriously out side of this issue, the GH1 is astonishing for the money. I had a choice between the 5DMII or the GH1. Money was there for either, I paid for the GH1 ( I don't have ), simply because it's a better refined V.1 DVSLR.....

The fact that you Barry, can even mention Red in the same sentence with the GH1 just gives me goosebumps. That says a lot about a little camera at that price!


Barry, when do you suspect you might have a review of the GH1 up?


.
.

Barry_Green
07-15-2009, 05:29 PM
I'm not saying it's in the same class as the Red One... remember, I said if it was $10,000 I'd throw it against the wall.

However, I do think the 1080p is probably as sharp as Red's 3K footage downconverted to 1080p, and I am certain it's significantly sharper than Red's 2K.

The codec is not up to par with RedCode, of course.

But ... guys... it's a 4K sensor, almost full-frame 35mm movie size, and it includes a killer lens, and it's $1500.

That's what keeps me coming back to it.

I did a ton of HMC150 vs. GH1 shooting here recently. For sharpness, the GH1 slays the HMC150. For usability the HMC150 is so luxurious, in comparison, that it's silly to even compare. But for DOF and sharpness the GH1 has big advantages. Not to mention small size and less than half the price.

So, it's those reasons that I stay enthralled. I can't wait for one of the major video camera manufacturers to wake up and stuff this sensor/lens combo in a proper video camera body, with all the appropriate connections and controls. That will be a huge amazing product.

Until then, I keep fiddling with the GH1 because I think it's gonna be huge. It does almost everything "right". Changing iris and shutter is no big deal, you have full control over both. It's got plenty of gamma curves and customization options to paint the image six ways from Sunday. It's got nice shallow DOF, and with a 50mm f/1.4 it has exquisite shallow DOF. Yes it's missing a lot of things -- no idea what your focus distance is, no way to monitor audio, no zebras or any indication other than a histogram as to what the mathematical exposure is, no power zoom so no slick zoom shots will be possible, and the big one: no live monitoring.

It ain't perfect.

Yes it's got some streaking. But overall it's so much lower noise than most camcorders, it's something that has to be taken in context. Shoot some video on an HD100 or XHA1 or HVX200, then compare against a GH1 at 400 ISO, and the GH1 is startlingly cleaner. The tradeoff? Some vertical streaking on 2-stop-under-key flat surfaces. In my book that gets filed under "boo hoo, now let's work around it." If it was offered on a professional video camera from the broadcast division I'd be raising holy hell about it, but a comparatively noiseless image that has, instead of a swarm of crawling ants on it, some vertical streaking? Eh, six of one, half dozen of the other, neither is ideal, let's see if we can work around it.


Yes it's got some mud if you whip it around. But y'know what? I took the HMC150 out with its CCDs and its much better codec (which is much better indeed!) and whipped 'em around, and -- once you get a whole bunch of motion blur in the shot, it really doesn't matter all that much. The muddy GH1 stuff doesn't look all that worse than the HMC150's motion-blur stuff. I think we gripe about it on the GH1 because the GH1's image starts out so much sharper than the HMC150 or other 1/3" camcorders' image! So the comparative degradation seems like more, but in fact in actually-usable circumstances it's probably not really any worse than an HDV camera with normal 1/48 shutter. It's just that the GH1 starts from such a sharper position that when it gets mudded down it looks like HD100/HMC150 footage with motion blur and codec degradation combined.

So I'm not sweating the "mud" anymore, in general. I'm still trying to coax adequate detail out of near-flat surfaces (like a seagull's wing, there's lots of tiny feather detail but so far the GH1's just rendering it all as a big mush of gray). But if I can sort out the last few things I'm thinking the GH1 is a big winner.

I'd love to get my hands on an EX1/EX3 for a little while to do some side-by-sides. I'm thinking the GH1 will be every bit as sharp and significantly quieter.

But, then again, the EX1/EX3 do a million things the little GH1 doesn't. It's an SLR (ish) that shoots some occasionally spectacular, occasionally "pretty good" video.

Ozpeter
07-15-2009, 05:30 PM
I just tried the same test with a SD5 - which, in a way, cost the same as the GH1 (30% lower price but it's only a 2 megapixel still camera) and if there are bands on it, they're completely submerged in the noise snowstorm. In overall quality terms for such a low light shot, chalk and cheese, and less than two years from one to the other.

Now I can reproduce the problem at will on the GH1 I'll spend some time with settings and see how best to avoid the bands - but I'm personally not that disturbed by them and probably would never have noticed them had the thread here not got me looking really hard.

OPHERBA
07-15-2009, 05:43 PM
The camera price point is not relevant to my opinion. We are looking for working tools and not a home video camera, and as such we all searching for cameras we can shoot with confidence and trust.

I wish with all my heart that I could say "this was shot with the GH1" and praise the camera for its ability to preform well in different conditions. Right now this is not the case.

We are all looking for a clean image and agree this issue is the most troublesome of all.

Thank you again all who are taking the time and trying looking for workarounds to avoid the problem.


Johnnie

Ozpeter
07-15-2009, 05:47 PM
For many of us the GH1 is/will be a working tool and not a home video camera, and as such we all searching for tools we can shoot with confidence and trust. We have to bear in mind that it's sold specifically for non-commercial use, and that has to restrict our expectations.

PappasArts
07-15-2009, 05:51 PM
But ... guys... it's a 4K sensor, almost full-frame 35mm movie size, and it includes a killer lens, and it's $1500.

That's what keeps me coming back to it.


That's what made me buy it!

.

JamesBenet
07-15-2009, 06:00 PM
This issue is a big deal breaker I canceled my pre-order and will wait for a fix on this and get the 60D when available. The shortage worked in my benefit as I would now have a banding happy cam which can't and wont do for my needs which require clean images to inter cut with higher end cams.

I remember the HV10 in low light had this all over but that was 3 years back and now this cam seems to have it in bright light too. I'm really dissappointed since I was already going to create a large GH1 kit with FDs and adapters. Loved the 2X crop for macro and Tele and well was willing to put up with 720p only because of the mud but this is too much.

If Pana fixes the bit rate to 24mbit and reduced the banding considerably then of course I'm in, for not it is once again wait and see for newer models. This was a perfect cam on paper, it could still be if they fix the issues.

I say we make this issue a cause and get them to at least come out with some sort of fix, I know we are at the infancy of vDSLRs but banding like this in a 1.5k kit is unacceptable.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-15-2009, 06:07 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by Peter J. DeCrescenzo http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1691194#post1691194)
Just wondering: Is it favorably affected by Film Mode settings such as Smooth or Nostalgic? Does it disappear in any of the B&W modes (in other words, does it occur only when recording color video)?


That's a whole lotta testing ... you're talking about (randomly guessing) a dozen different film modes, multiplied by 20 (for each combination of -2 to +2 for the various settings in the film modes) multiplied by 13 (for the different ISO combinations) multiplied by 16 iris settings on the lens. That's almost 50,000 combinations.

And I have to ship the camera out tomorrow morning.

Look, for everyone panicking: the GH1 is not perfect. If it cost $10,000 I would throw it against the wall. For $1500 including this particular lens, it's a steal. ...

Hi Barry: No worries. And sorry, I wasn't expecting you or any person to to test tens of thousands of combinations right this minute, stat! :cheesy:

In a way, I'm one of the GH1's biggest boosters; see:
http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37701

... but I'm also immensely curious to discover both its strengths and weaknesses. As I believe you and most of us here are, too.

Meanwhile, it seems odd to me that the GH1's noise reduction control doesn't seem to have much affect on the fixed pattern noise/streaks, as if the FPN is happening _after_ NR.

Again, no worries. I worked for many years in technical marketing and tech support, so I'm overly sensitive to "customer-facing" types of issues. Sometimes it's hard for me to get out of that habit/role, and instead just be happy & shoot (video)! Or just be like this guy and feel better after: :badputer:


(We need an animated smilely of a happy video guy!) Oh, here it is: :beer:

;-)

holdingpattern
07-15-2009, 08:18 PM
On the plus side, I have read about FPN banding issues that other Canon/Nikon DSLRs have had in the past, and the problem was reduced via firmware updates, so there is hope that Panasonic can address this. We are on the bleeding edge of consumer camera's here so perhaps our expectations were a notch too high.


Aside from the lack of live HDMI output (I have no idea what this would take with the GH1 architecture) the other major problems, namely "mud" and "banding" seem to be issues that firmware can address to some extent.

We on the bleeding edge need to be patient, afterall that is why we all pre-ordered this gadget... umm.... right?<br><br>Software development and testing take time, so I think we need to hold out for 6 months before rendering a final judgement on the cam. With the HUGE response panny has gotten over this camera I'm sure they are paying attention to these issues, but fixes take time.

As for me, I've found that I can compensate picking my shots a little more carefully, overexposing when necessary, and I get perfectly adequate results for my purposes. I have no buyer's remorse and remain VERY happy with my purchase.

I have found this forum hugely informative, Thank you everyone for sharing your expertise and insights!

Ozpeter
07-16-2009, 12:10 AM
When it comes to be able to see the banding in the viewfinder, I can see it there on replay but not on record. On record I actually get some horizontal artifacts but they don't get recorded, fortunately.

GMC
07-16-2009, 01:18 AM
When it comes to be able to see the banding in the viewfinder, I can see it there on replay but not on record. On record I actually get some horizontal artifacts but they don't get recorded, fortunately.


I am 100% shure that we are talking about fixed pattern noise.
Well, just to add some points to this discussion:

- on my GH1, as mentioned before, when I point it into adark spot you can easily start to see the streaks (horizontally and vertically) on both the viewfinder & LCD - actually pretty shocking what you see.
- The streaks are always (fixed) in the same area (on mine its on the upper right hand quadrant of the picture, where I have two intersecting, VERY pronounced streaks)
- BUT WHEN I PUSH THE RECORD BUTTON (in creative film mode, regardless what film settings you use) and film gets recorded, obviously the LCD / viewfinder shows what gets recorded to the card, as the image changes suddenly and the picture is much less noisy, AND the fixed pattern is completely gone (for almost any light situation - just if you push it as already mentioned above (1600iso, I.-Exposure on, underexposed).

Here comes my point:
- obviously the internal noise reduction algorithm is looking for this fixed pattern noise and tries to eliminate the slight differences in gain on the rows of the sensor (as already mentioned)
- Hence, as my camera seems to have pretty pronounced "raw" FPN, it seems easier for the algorithm to reduce it to a point where I honestly cannot see it - I did some night shooting yesterday at 1600 iso filming the houses (large plain areas of same color) in my neighbourhood with subsequent "pixel peeping".
Very hard to notice it (if any) - It should be easy to identify as on my GH1 its fixed, always in the upper right hand quadrant.

Hence, (a) it can be fixed by software (maybe later Firmware releases help) and (b) it depends on the "raw" FPN, which for shure is different for each and every sensor (within some tolerance of course).

Even if you have it, you learn to know where it is - can be easily corrected by blurring the part of the picture where it is (made even easier by the fact that it is more visible in large parts with the same color).

Nothing to worry about ... By the way whats funny anyway, is that the viewing audience gets fascinated by good shots, dialogues, etc .. but picture quality hardly seems to play a role ... My wife still does not see a difference and can't understand why I exchanged my MiniDV cam with the GH1. Recently I showed a film to some friends, and they said how fascinating the quality of the new GH1 is .. I had to told them I was showing them an older sample still filmed with the old MiniDV Cam.

best regards,

Gunther

pailes
07-16-2009, 01:46 AM
Dear pailes, could not fix this with my Windows Movie maker:
Yay look how funny you are. I'm not expecting you to understand what my posting was about and I'm not expecting any currently existing image manipulation filter to reduce the banding. I'm thinking about writing a special filter made for exactly this purpose. It is probably possible. Maybe the camera is already reducing the FPN artifacts using a special filter in the firmware and it's simply not good enough. Would be an interesting research topic.

commanderspike
07-16-2009, 02:56 AM
The first GH1 movie was 'Mud: Revenge of the Codec'. The second GH1 movie has just come out and it's 'Banding: Revenge of CMOS'.

Honestly guys... stop cancelling preorders, get your cam, and go and make something with it.

The thing I learnt from highlighting the mud issue a month back was that yes, it needs fixing and is an unpleasant surprise, but the guys who criticised me for blabbering on about it for too long ended up being right, because no amount of mud or banding can change the fact that you can get some STUNNING footage from this thing. All pieces of technology have their foibles. Even a space shuttle and that costs a lot more. :nads:

commanderspike
07-16-2009, 03:01 AM
Ok - So I mounted the Gh1 on the tripod, 1600 ISO, 30fps and pointed it out the window into the night scenery. For eight hours. I used the mains, left the camera on, closed the lcd flip out screen. And that's it - no need to press "record" - now I get VISIBLY reduced banding - in the order of like 60-70 percent for the lower ISOs, but for 1600 to 1000 ISO, I'd say about 40 percent.
Of course, your mileage may vary - and thank you all so much for sharing - I hope this helps you.

Tonight I will do this again just before bed... and report back if any improvement

Well I am kinda changing my mind about dismissing the burn in theory now. Incredible stuff. Can anyone else verify this?

What happens when you move the camera off the tripod and shoot a different scene afterwards?

commanderspike
07-16-2009, 03:07 AM
This issue is a big deal breaker I canceled my pre-order and will wait for a fix on this and get the 60D when available. The shortage worked in my benefit as I would now have a banding happy cam which can't and wont do for my needs which require clean images to inter cut with higher end cams.

I remember the HV10 in low light had this all over but that was 3 years back and now this cam seems to have it in bright light too. I'm really dissappointed since I was already going to create a large GH1 kit with FDs and adapters. Loved the 2X crop for macro and Tele and well was willing to put up with 720p only because of the mud but this is too much.

If Pana fixes the bit rate to 24mbit and reduced the banding considerably then of course I'm in, for not it is once again wait and see for newer models. This was a perfect cam on paper, it could still be if they fix the issues.

I say we make this issue a cause and get them to at least come out with some sort of fix, I know we are at the infancy of vDSLRs but banding like this in a 1.5k kit is unacceptable.

All cameras using CMOS chips have banding in certain circumstances. You could indeed wait for the 60D but that will be CMOS as well. I don't understand this 'cancelling preorders' stuff. I like debating and figuring out these technical issues but the banding for me is much less of an issue than the occasional codec breakup (I notice mud all the time but never banding), and both issues together are much less of an issue than they seem when you get down to use the camera properly.

Ken7
07-16-2009, 08:11 AM
I'm still amazed by all the surprise centered around low-light banding. I can tell the guys who never used a traditional CMOS-based camcorder.

I also don't understand why so many seem so averse to lights. It's an accepted fact that if you want good video in low light situations, you MUST add light. Experienced lighting guys know how to give the look of 'ambient lighting' by adding lighting that's not very obvious...but it's there.

You want high quality audio you need to go to outboard audio solutions. The same is true in very low light conditions with video...add lighting!

delaney
07-16-2009, 08:44 AM
If you don't have a full light kit I'd recommend at least have a Light Ring for your camera of choice. I have a DigiSlave 3200 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469328-REG/Digi_Slave_LRU3200D_L_Ring_3200D_LED_Ring.html)whi ch is amazingly bright and produces almost no shadowing. Its dialable and allows you to only use one side when needed. Plus if its set really low it doesn't light anything but the 'glint in the eye': which is a good thing.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-16-2009, 09:07 AM
If you haven't already seen it, here's a great example of a video in which one might expect to see very objectionable CMOS banding/streaking noise, but actually looks great. There might even be lots of noise in this video, but watching it I didn't notice or care.

This video has huge expanses of flat, dimly lit surfaces, but it looks really nice. Kudos to to the videographer!
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=177555

OPHERBA
07-16-2009, 09:36 AM
Please don't relate the problem to low light only. People should know it is there in daylight too, at least in the unit I had (unless it was extremely defective).

I must admit that for what ever reason it is less evident in 720/50, but in 1080/25 it is there in "all its glory".

Thanks.

Johnnie

holdingpattern
07-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Please don't relate the problem to low light only. People should know it is there in daylight too, at least in the unit I had (unless it was extremely defective).

I must admit that for what ever reason it is less evident in 720/50, but in 1080/25 it is there in "all its glory".

Thanks.

Johnnie

To be more precise it is a problem with underexposed video which is just a bit easier to make in low-light situations.

squig
07-16-2009, 07:26 PM
Has anyone confirmed whether the banding happens in mjpeg mode?

Nighthawk
07-16-2009, 10:32 PM
Has anyone confirmed whether the banding happens in mjpeg mode?

It does on mine.

AdrianF
07-17-2009, 08:20 AM
I'm seeing this in m(p)jpeg mode. I shot a little over the last couple of days in this mode and in some of the low light shots it's fairly noticeable. I've not really gone anything more than 640 iso. What's pretty odd is I tried switching between different film modes and in the B&W settings I found extreme macro blocking/mosaic patterns. I wonder if the two are related, I've been seeing this on large solid areas, where there is very slight colour/tone shifts, like bokeh on backgrounds. I expected to see less in mjpeg, because assumed that some of this was as a result of the so called weak codec, but now I'm not so sure.

colna
07-17-2009, 08:56 AM
Opherba asked me to put my example for the wonderful vertical lines 200 ASA here
So enjoy:
http://files.me.com/region2/aowzvu
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/files.me.com/region2/aowzvu

AdrianF
07-17-2009, 09:06 AM
That looks pretty severe. How about giving us some of your settings?

holdingpattern
07-17-2009, 09:26 AM
Not to belittle the problem, but the streaks are MUCH more visible when you look at the video frame-by-frame. When playing on my TV (usually shot in the 720p AVCHD) the streaks are much less obvious and unless I pointed them out and made someone like my mom look carefully she probably wouldn't notice them. In extreme cases this isn't true, but in the shot above, based on my experiences it probably is. This may not be acceptable for professional use, but from a consumer standpoint (mom taking a video little Joe at the soccer game) it probably is. There is no way engineers at Panasonic can't have seen this in their development.

I think this should go in the firmware request to Panasonic. They obviously treat this as a consumer level cam where they can get away with these blemishes. A concerted (POLITE) effort may be needed to convince them that there is significant professional interest in the camera too *IF* they can fix some of these issues.

Just my $0.02.

commanderspike
07-17-2009, 10:50 AM
That looks pretty severe. How about giving us some of your settings?

I've yet to see banding on properly exposed footage. Closing up the aperature and putting the frame rate through the roof is bound to bring out banding especially at high ISOs.

If you have a fast Canon FD lens or something and don't want to lose the nice shallow DOF at F1.4 get a ND filter on there and it'll be fine.

Keep the shutter speed below 1/100, preferably 1/60 in 720p or 1/30 in 1080 and it'll look fine.

Has anyone got banding on footage shot at 1/30, not under exposed?

jamesjjs
07-19-2009, 06:15 PM
Following up on my post #169 - ok, I can confirm that the "burn-in" theory (as roposed by Commanderspike) works - at least for me. Images are cleaner - there still is some streaking, but not so pronounced/obvious, and now in -1 exposure, I can hardly see it. at -2, it is very faint and more organic. Of course at -3 it's not there, as the image is very dark.

So I repeat my procedure - let the camera run 8 to 12 hours a day. Point it at some blank wall - turn off lcd & viewfinder, let it run off the mains,, no need to hit the REC button. Keep the exposure low - my settings were 1600 ISO, aperture 4 (wide open) and shutter was whatever speed where the banding/streaking was most obvious.

I wrote to Panasonic (service center in Singapore) and attached a video clip (that showed the streaking) as well. They replied that the CMOS sensor was performing within spec! Whatever it is, they are aware of the problem.

Again, thank you everybody for your feedback on this

PappasArts
07-19-2009, 06:51 PM
If that's the case, it would be most likely a coating of some type that the heat was dissolving or tempering.....

.

admactanium
07-19-2009, 08:34 PM
Ok - So I mounted the Gh1 on the tripod, 1600 ISO, 30fps and pointed it out the window into the night scenery. For eight hours. I used the mains, left the camera on, closed the lcd flip out screen. And that's it - no need to press "record" - now I get VISIBLY reduced banding - in the order of like 60-70 percent for the lower ISOs, but for 1600 to 1000 ISO, I'd say about 40 percent.
Of course, your mileage may vary - and thank you all so much for sharing - I hope this helps you.

Tonight I will do this again just before bed... and report back if any improvement
What's the reason for pointing it at the night sky? Why wouldn't you just leave the cap on and leave the camera on?

jamesjjs
07-19-2009, 09:17 PM
Admactinium - I just acted on a hunch - that's all. You can try with the lens cap on. If that does not work, then you've just wasted 8 -12 hours!! I read somewhere (Kholi I think) that if you keep the camera underexposed for a period, the streaking minimizes. And, after reading all the posts of people whose streaking problem disappeared after a couple of days, I thought it would make sense to let the sensor shoot something.

Frankly, I was pissed as hell as OPHERBA (who returned the camera) and I agree with him that it all seems like voodoo. I have shot 5 days straight, 8-12 hours, plus hundreds of clips in between, testing all the settings. I got the camera since July 1st, and now, July 20 (almost 3 weeks later) things are ok.

Do you know how much time/energy I've invested in this damn thing?! Barry Green said he would not want to test all the film mode settings - guess what? I did. Just about every setting I could think of - I tried.

Finally - the streaking levels are within reason.

Nighthawk
07-19-2009, 09:39 PM
Do you know how much time/energy I've invested in this damn thing?! Barry Green said he would not want to test all the film mode settings - guess what? I did. Just about every setting I could think of - I tried.

Finally - the streaking levels are within reason.

I for one appreciate the effort. If it works I'll have you to thank. People have advocated proper exposure procedures and they're right. It was never my intention to underexpose the principals in a shot but background and peripheral images is what I'm concerned about. I want low light levels for those areas. I'm trying to avoid larger areas of light colored flat surfaces but sometimes that's just not possible so anything that will lessen these streaks will be welcomed by me.

admactanium
07-19-2009, 10:53 PM
Admactinium - I just acted on a hunch - that's all. You can try with the lens cap on. If that does not work, then you've just wasted 8 -12 hours!! I read somewhere (Kholi I think) that if you keep the camera underexposed for a period, the streaking minimizes. And, after reading all the posts of people whose streaking problem disappeared after a couple of days, I thought it would make sense to let the sensor shoot something.

Frankly, I was pissed as hell as OPHERBA (who returned the camera) and I agree with him that it all seems like voodoo. I have shot 5 days straight, 8-12 hours, plus hundreds of clips in between, testing all the settings. I got the camera since July 1st, and now, July 20 (almost 3 weeks later) things are ok.

Do you know how much time/energy I've invested in this damn thing?! Barry Green said he would not want to test all the film mode settings - guess what? I did. Just about every setting I could think of - I tried.

Finally - the streaking levels are within reason.
I didn't mean to mock what you were doing. On the contrary I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you're doing so I can do it as well. My camera shuts itself off after a while. So you're pointing it at something dark at night, no LCD, no EVF and it's not recording. What exactly is it doing?

OPHERBA
07-19-2009, 11:26 PM
Guys, thank for the tip, I hope I will not have to use it on the next one I get... :)

I posted a clip with the vertical lines problem in a "normal" exposed method here: http://www.vimeo.com/5656539
To really see the problem you better download the (large) file and watch it on a big screen since Vimeo compression tends to "smooth" things up.

Thanks

Johnnie

Ozpeter
07-20-2009, 12:46 AM
My camera shuts itself off after a while.Setup menu > Economy > Power Save > Off.

jamesjjs
07-20-2009, 02:54 AM
Admactanium - no, no - not at all! I did not think you were mocking me at all - yeah, guess when I re-read my post it sounded like I was angry or something... it's that I don't want ANYONE to waste their life doing stupid things like I did.

It's no fun testing/troubleshooting and working with all kinds of uncertainty - I was hoping Panasonic would acknowledge the problem, even after showing them my clip. The reply I got back was "this is within the CMOS spec."

I've read how people have been waiting for months - I bet some of them are going to get streaking problems as bad if not worse than mine. At least they have some idea of how to minimize the streaking.

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 03:19 AM
I am trying to figure out what the best way to 'burn in' your GH1's CMOS sensor. We need a better understanding because it certainly has potential, it seems.

By the way, what is the Pixel Refresh for in the menus? A detailed technical description of that might reveal how the CMOS sensor works and therefore suggest a more scientific explanation for the burn in theory. I think Pixel Refresh removes 'stuck' or 'hot' pixels doesn't it? Why do they occur?

The fixed pattern noise of CMOS sensors fading or changing over time. Hmmm. Could it be that when the sensor heats up, very small components slot into place better, after being more or less slightly skewed by manufacturing and transit?

Or is it something related to the CMOS technology itself, a characteristic?

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 03:26 AM
'CMOS fixed pattern noise' is a common search on Google and there is a patent filed by Kodak to combat it. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7092017.html

I don't understand all the technicalities of it but it sounds similar to the burn in theory, and what people are reporting hear - pointing the sensor at a dark sky for instance.

nathankw
07-20-2009, 03:50 AM
Following up on my post #169 - ok, I can confirm that the "burn-in" theory (as roposed by Commanderspike) works - at least for me. Images are cleaner - there still is some streaking, but not so pronounced/obvious, and now in -1 exposure, I can hardly see it. at -2, it is very faint and more organic. Of course at -3 it's not there, as the image is very dark.


Fascinating.
I'll give it a go... when I find where I put my mains cable that is!

Did you shoot some tests in identical situations before and after the burn-in? Be really interesting to see the results. Perhaps we could do a "pepsi challenge". Show us the two photos and see if we can work out which was which. Or is the difference totally obvious?

This is really positive news so thanks for sharing.

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 04:40 AM
Yes I'd like to see some before & after shots, we all would. Maybe with noise reduction turned off.

Martti Ekstrand
07-20-2009, 05:05 AM
If that's the case, it would be most likely a coating of some type that the heat was dissolving or tempering.....

I concur with this. If it was any kind of interference, either electromagnetical or just our spirit auras it should move or rather flicker like crazy but it is fixed - at least on my GH1. Also the pattern is rather organic, interferences should be more pixely. Probably will the new ones in later shipments exhibit less of this as Panasonic fine-tunes the manufacturing process of the sensors. If it doesn't diminish in a couple of days or is really visible even at low ISO values on your particular GH1 I think you should go back to the reseller and demand to have it replaced.

I'm also one of those who saw it in the beginning but hardly at all now. It's faintly visible on a few places in 'Closing Time' which was shoot roughly 7 hours after I got mine.

Nighthawk
07-20-2009, 06:03 AM
First, my apologies for no before and after shots but jamesjjs' procedure is working for me. 18+ hours straight pointed at an underexposed white folder and it is visibly lessened. The streaks are still there, for sure, but visibly lessened. As we all know it looks worse in stand by mode but when I press record I can't believe the difference. A few of us were going down this road but jamesjjs really stuck with it. Dude, if your out there, I soooo owe you a beer.

J Davis
07-20-2009, 06:18 AM
You might want to try pointing the camera at something moving or at something that changes in brightness. I don't know for sure if this will speed up the process but I mention this because the streaking on my GH1 had faded after about 6 to 7 hours of shooting. All my test shoots were in a wide variety of lighting conditions including pointing it at high contrast moving tree branches and leaves (I was trying to break the codec). Especially with a blue sky background - thats a lot of info to put thru the sensor.

jamesjjs
07-20-2009, 08:19 AM
Nighthawk - glad it worked for you!

Nathankw - the difference is like night and day. I'm too lazy to post pics!

J Davies - I thought about shooting moving objects and different lighting, etc... but that was waaayyy too much work. So, one day I thought, why not just let it run through the night while I sleep? If it breaks, then I send it to Panny since its under warranty! In fact, better if it breaks - at least I'll have a new sensor.

Martti / Pappas / Commanderstrike - yeah, I get the same feeling like it's some king of residue leftover. It really looked like someone ran a vertical stroke down the sensor with a fat paintbrush dipped in oil.

Again, all of you have been very inspiring. While I may have stuck through this process, I gained insight through everybodys' reports on this issue.

Cheers!

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Was your original noise kinda yellowish in colour?

Is iExposure on or off?

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 09:27 AM
Has anyone tried running the sensor cleaning option in the menu?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_Wave_Filter

Martti Ekstrand
07-20-2009, 09:30 AM
It runs by itself every time you power up I think.

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 09:35 AM
Hmmm. I only really noticed low-light streaks in one photo I've taken...and it was on the first day. Sitting in my room with lights off and blinds closed I've been taking high ISO pics with no streaking...maybe I'm just lucky...although I am also using a fast lens (Nikkor-S 50mm, f1.4)...but still it's pretty dark.

Nighthawk
07-20-2009, 09:37 AM
Was your original noise kinda yellowish in colour?

Is iExposure on or off?

For me at certain exposure levels it was yellowish but at extreme underexposure it's more brown.

Never had iExposure on thanks to advise you gave in an earlier post.

From everybody's experience what's been the most successful 'film mode' settings as it relates to this topic especially in relation to NR?

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 09:48 AM
When doing photos I've mainly been using "vibrant" because I don't do much post work on my photos. For video I've been doing a custom setting...I think -1 saturation, -2 contrast, -2 NR....I don't see why you would ever want to do noise reduction in camera...to me that sounds like it will be softening the image. Also with contrast it's better in my view to have it turned down so you get more detail in dark/bright areas...you can increase it in post....maybe this will help with streaks if there is more detail in dark areas? No NR, low contrast?

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-20-2009, 09:54 AM
Caution: Do not attempt to manually clean the CMOS sensor in your camera unless you feel qualified to do so, and even then, it's possible you may scratch the sensor or otherwise permanently damage your camera if you are not extremely careful!

Having gotten that warning out of the way, I noticed the following article on the Luminous Landscape site (similar articles can be found elsewhere online, too):
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/sensor-cleaning.shtml

If (if) the GH1's fixed pattern noise has anything to do with residue on the sensor's surface left-over from manufacturing, it's possible (maybe) something like the special Eclipse cleaning fluid and special Sensor Swabs mentioned in the article can clean it off, or reduce it. Maybe.

Note: Since this issue doesn't involve dust on the sensor, you may or may not need to use the CO2 sprayer described in the article.

YMMV!

However, since the voodoo process of leaving your cam powered-up for hours as a way to "burn off" phantom residues is basically _free_, it seems well worth trying it first before resorting to attempting to clean the sensor manually (with liquids & swabs) yourself.

I really hope the voodoo power-up burn-in method works, because needing to manually clean a brand-new factory-fresh sensor seems unfortunate (and might not make any difference).

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 09:57 AM
It runs by itself every time you power up I think.

Whoops you're correct!

Pixel Refresh was mentioned above I think...did that help at all?

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't recommend cleaning the sensor, (unless it's dusty and the super sonic wave filter can't budge it!) I don't think the issue is to do with the phantom residue or anything like - and this won't be changed by cleaning the sensor anyway. There is a filter in front of the sensor anyway so you wouldn't actually be touching the sensor itself if trying to clean it.

CMOS banding is due the design of the technology.

I think the burn-in theory is the most convincing way to reduce the banding I have heard so far, and I myself noticed my camera improving in that regard after a few days of usage. I still would like to see actual pictures for proof of it working though and to what extent.

I have heard it mentioned the picture gets cleaned up when you press 'record'. Indeed, the fixed pattern CMOS noise does get cleaned up by the noise reduction when recording, but not in live view.

Could it be that the GH1 has some kind of intelligent fixed pattern removal software which learns over time where the pattern is and attempts to compensate for it row by row by averaging out the signals running through the sensor?

RE: Pixel Refresh. Manual says it needs to be run annually, to return the GH1's sensor to 'factory' conditions. No idea what the reasoning or technology is behind this.

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 10:33 AM
Yeah agreed on sensor cleaning. BTW supersonic wave filter is the best technobable I've ever heard on a camera feature.

Well I know when you're taking photos in low light the liveview gets tons of gain turned onto it even higher than the theoretical max ISO that really shows banding (before you take a photo...) buuuuuuuuuuuut from what I've seen video doesn't change too much when you hit the button.

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 10:37 AM
Thats interesting. On mine, the fixed pattern noise is always there in live view when gained up and under exposed - paradox I know, but possible to achieve with the live view.

When the video begins recording the fixed pattern noise is suppressed pretty well. Could my GH1 have learnt over time where the fixed pattern is and learnt how to compensate for it?

The banding (while recording) appears for me still - but not much. Only in extreme situation, i.e. when the scene is between complete darkness and low illumination, i.e. a moon lit sky with an F1.4 lens can be tricky. With no light present at all i.e. with lens cap on, there is noise even when gained up. It's only when the photon signal (on the sensor) is weak that it causes the pattern to appear - and in this circumstance, it is recorded (even at ISO 100) and not just when the live view is gained up.

You have to give the CMOS sensor strong enough light through slightly overexposing and avoid evenly shaded unexposed areas of white, etc.

I recommend slightly overexposing shots when you see banding, even if it looks washed out and the highlights are blown, you can still have something to work with in post when you darken it with software.

Better to get a healthy image out of the camera and correct that rather than getting an unhealthy image out and worrying about reshooting or correcting the bad image in post which is much more difficult than just tuning the levels!

PappasArts
07-20-2009, 10:38 AM
If (if) the GH1's fixed pattern noise has anything to do with residue on the sensor's surface left-over from manufacturing, it's possible (maybe) something like the special Eclipse cleaning fluid and special Sensor Swabs mentioned in the article can clean it off, or reduce it. Maybe.




Yeah I've said this now twice in the past couple of weeks.... Seemed no one wanted to run with it. That said, I hope that could fix this; then it's not an issue!

The burn in thing still baffles me, though I can understand it. If it is however on a senors/transistor level, then what is burning in?

Btw cleaning sensors glass, The actual sensor is sealed. This is not a problem if you use correct tools. I have been doing it since 2003.

.

admactanium
07-20-2009, 10:41 AM
Well, I have an "unmolested" GH1 and I'm willing to try this. If someone wants to explain to me how to "burn it in" and we agree upon what to shoot as a sample then I'm more than glad to do a before and after. I also have eclipse solution and pec-pads. I have no qualms about cleaning the sensor on the GH1. I cleaned the sensor on my 30D plenty of times without issue and it's harder to get at than the GH1's.

PappasArts
07-20-2009, 10:47 AM
The best burn in method that I had to due with Saticon and Plumbicon tube broadcast cameras was I would film a TV full frame with CNN etc on and this would remove for the most part burn in that happen from lights or the sun out in the field... It would take about 12+ hours, however it worked.

admactanium
07-20-2009, 10:54 AM
Interesting. I could do that I suppose. What shall we use as a control point? What kind of situation best shows the streaks so that we can really have a decent before and after comparison?

commanderspike
07-20-2009, 10:55 AM
Well, I have an "unmolested" GH1 and I'm willing to try this. If someone wants to explain to me how to "burn it in" and we agree upon what to shoot as a sample then I'm more than glad to do a before and after. I also have eclipse solution and pec-pads. I have no qualms about cleaning the sensor on the GH1. I cleaned the sensor on my 30D plenty of times without issue and it's harder to get at than the GH1's.

Ahh gold dust.

You can be of great service here my friend :)

Please shoot a short clip featuring banding, static shot with tripod, at a static scene with lots of bright objects in a (very) dimly lit room at ISO 1600.

Then after the overnight burn in where camera is turned on, plugged into mains, LCD & EVF turned off to save those components the stress, take the very same clip with the very same settings on the same tripod and see what you see.

Most importantly... let us see it as well :)

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
07-20-2009, 10:59 AM
In addition to PappasArts' suggestions:

An analog TV displaying bright random "snow" (not tuned to a TV program) might be a good "subject", too.

Or: A computer monitor displaying a bright, random screen saver which never goes to black/sleep.

But my guess is -- if there's merit to the GH1 burn-in/cook-off theory -- just leaving the lens cap on while powered-up for hours might work just as well, if all that's really going on is the sensor & cam warming up a bit to hasten the evaporation of some mystery residue. Seems worth a try; can't hurt.

Nighthawk
07-20-2009, 11:13 AM
For what it's worth I've been cooking mine for over 20 hours now. The room is the same but the ambient light has changed but I've tried to maintain the most horrible streaking possible adjusting aperture and shutter speeds while maintaining a constant 1600 ISO. The results are really promising. The few times I've checked for progress the problems I had with lower ISOs is vastly superior than before. I'll be watching admactanium's progress and see how shooting at a moving screen etc. might improve it more.

PhilD
07-20-2009, 01:51 PM
Sticky this thread please...!

Pepster
07-20-2009, 03:08 PM
I´m not an owner of a gh1 so far but toying with the idea of buying one. Since i´m a lowlight fan this flaw would bug me a lot.

If you are a low-light fan, why not buy the low-light master, the Canon 5DMKII ?

The 5D2 will let you do this - filmed by the light of 3 candles only:
http://www.vimeo.com/2666377

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 03:13 PM
Be careful, the manual says not to expose the sensor to sunlight for long periods of time.

It also advises to...I am not making this up...
"Do not use a paper bag as it can easily rip causing the camera to fall and be damaged."

PhilD
07-20-2009, 03:52 PM
Be careful, the manual says not to expose the sensor to sunlight for long periods of time.

It also advises to...I am not making this up...
"Do not use a paper bag as it can easily rip causing the camera to fall and be damaged."

What about ultra-thin plastic grocery bags? I need to know if that'll break my GH1!!!

Pepster
07-20-2009, 03:55 PM
What ISO, shutter speed and aperture. And was it under exposed a few EV?

If you have iExposure turned on... disable it. In certain conditions it exaggerates the natural CMOS banding phenomena.

Usually it is either none existent or very slight, aka 5D MII.

My GH1 with iExposure (under exposed):

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/banding.jpg

My GH1 without iExposure (under exposed):

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/nobanding2.jpg

Anything normally exposed is 100% clean with iExposure turned off:

http://www.brawnf1blog.com/GH1/nobanding.jpg

That's all at ISO 1600, full HD.

I've not had this banding problem effect any of my footage, because I never shoot with iExposure turned on.
It's not really a camera fault - more a side effect of using iExposure whilst forcing the camera to underexposure.
This pushes iExposure into overdrive, amplifying the CMOS sensor so that it goes mad.
Don't be daft and underexpose, then boost the CMOS sensor with an in-camera software trick. It doesn't make sense!
Your first shot here with iExposure shows very obvious vertical streaks and les obvous horizontal streaks - it looks like a Tartan pattern.
You second darker shot without iExposure has this Tartan pattern too, but is less obvoius due to the darkness of the shot. I expect this 'Tartan' will leap out at you once this shot has been graded.

My big, big, tip. Review all your work on a decent monitor (a 24" PC monitor just doesn't cut it) eg on a properly adjusted 50" Plasma (I do this). If the footage has any wart like these pics, this problem will then become obvious.

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 03:55 PM
What about hitting it with a hammer?

Pepster
07-20-2009, 04:01 PM
Not to belittle the problem, but the streaks are MUCH more visible when you look at the video frame-by-frame. When playing on my TV (usually shot in the 720p AVCHD) the streaks are much less obvious and unless I pointed them out and made someone like my mom look carefully she probably wouldn't notice them. In extreme cases this isn't true, but in the shot above, based on my experiences it probably is. This may not be acceptable for professional use, but from a consumer standpoint (mom taking a video little Joe at the soccer game) it probably is. There is no way engineers at Panasonic can't have seen this in their development.

I think this should go in the firmware request to Panasonic. They obviously treat this as a consumer level cam where they can get away with these blemishes. A concerted (POLITE) effort may be needed to convince them that there is significant professional interest in the camera too *IF* they can fix some of these issues.

Just my $0.02.
Have you played this on a decent properly adjusted display, eg a 50" Plasma?

You may be amazed at all the 'orrible warts that come to life on a nice big clear TV. TVs will get better and more revealing still - Panasonic have Promised an OLED TV within 18 months.

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't understand why it's so hard to light your shots properly? Seriously?

Pepster
07-20-2009, 04:05 PM
The first GH1 movie was 'Mud: Revenge of the Codec'. The second GH1 movie has just come out and it's 'Banding: Revenge of CMOS'.

Honestly guys... stop cancelling preorders, get your cam, and go and make something with it.

The thing I learnt from highlighting the mud issue a month back was that yes, it needs fixing and is an unpleasant surprise, but the guys who criticised me for blabbering on about it for too long ended up being right, because no amount of mud or banding can change the fact that you can get some STUNNING footage from this thing. All pieces of technology have their foibles. Even a space shuttle and that costs a lot more. :nads:
Do you work for Panasonic ? I mean, why would you recommend a camera that has these issues, when there are other alternatives ?

Pepster
07-20-2009, 04:13 PM
However, I do think the 1080p is probably as sharp as Red's 3K footage downconverted to 1080p, and I am certain it's significantly sharper than Red's 2K.

The codec is not up to par with RedCode, of course.

But ... guys... it's a 4K sensor, almost full-frame 35mm movie size, and it includes a killer lens, and it's $1500.


I have seen the 5D2 campared to the RedOne (the 5D2 is better in low light BTW),
http://www.vimeo.com/5160288
http://www.vimeo.com/5160288

but I have not seen the GH1 compared to the Redone.

The 5D2's sensor has 2.3x the surface area of the GH1 - hence the 5D2's lowlight goodness.

Pepster
07-20-2009, 04:15 PM
I don't understand why it's so hard to light your shots properly? Seriously?
This is why the 5D2 is far cheaper overall than the GH1 - LESS LIGHTING IS REQUIRED.

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 04:19 PM
Pepster do you have one? I do. Mine doesn't have these problems. I've managed to shoot some really nice stuff with it. Of course a CMOS sensor is going to band in crappy lighting at ISO 1600...when has anything ever not looked like crap at ISO 1600? Light your footage properly, don't go nuts with ISO (I try not to shoot at anything over 400, or if I do I make sure there's lots of negative space and not like plain white to show banding...not that I have seen any banding on min yet.) Oh, and learn to use your camera manually, don't turn on gimicky consumer crap like iExposure...light your scene for the camera and lenses you have.

We shot a film noir with all night shoots on an HVX-200...did we complain that the camera sucked low light? No. We went out and found some generators and 6000 watts worth of lights and made it anyway. We made the film on a near zero budget, money spent was mainly to feed crew and actors. Beg, buy, borrow, steal. That's the rules. Did we complain about the tiny dynamic range? No. We used it to our advantage; we saved time/money/effort on locations by using the quick dropoff in poorly lit areas to shoot in places that otherwise wouldn't have worked (like a bar that was supposed to be small and dingy but had a huge empty restauraunt behind it...you couldn't see the restaruant because we didn't put light on it!)

Sure not everyone can do this, but don't expect the camera to be magic. Cameras work because of light. They don't work without light. This has always been true. Sure it's not always banding but if it's not that it's something else. If you get streaks in non low light or high contrast situations then send your camera in, because I know mine doesn't do it, so yours theoretically doesn't have to. Otherwise, if you must shoot footage in crappy conditions why expect the footage to come out looking amazing? It's not the camera's fault, it's yours. It doesn't matter what you shoot on.

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 04:20 PM
This is why the 5D2 is far cheaper overall than the GH1 - LESS LIGHTING IS REQUIRED.

Do you work for Panasonic ? I mean, why would you recommend a camera that has these issues, when there are other alternatives ?

Do you work for Canon? Every post you have on this site is in a 5DMKII vs X forum or in a forum discussing potential problems with a panasonic camera. every freaking one. Why would you recommend a camera that is more expensive than the one being discussed here, and has fewer features.

You know what. Don't answer that. I don't care. Have you even touched either of them? If you haven't touched the GH1 and have no desire to, and are not here to help but rather tell people they should have bought the 5D mkII instead then get the hell out of this forum. Have? Go shoot some good stuff with it. Have you touched the 5D mkII? Yeah? Go bother people over at 5Duser. Haven't? Stop telling people to buy it.

Martti Ekstrand
07-20-2009, 04:33 PM
The 5D2 will let you do this - filmed by the light of 3 candles only]
GH1 - one small dinky heat candle so about 0.8 lux - self portrait in mirror so 1/4 stop of light loss - camera handheld in only left hand so some motion blur - frame grabbed with OSX screen dump from Toast Video Player - quick CC in Photoshop

Happy now?

Ben_B
07-20-2009, 04:34 PM
Nice! Now set that as your profile pic so I can stop looking at that freaking clown thing.

jamesjjs
07-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Commanderspike - yes, it was fine yellow streaks. If you really look hard, there can be some green and red.
I-exposure, whether on or off, did not help nor aggravate in my case.
Everything I tried in every mode, it was there, as long as exposure was in the -1 to -2 range. -3 was almost negligible. In yellow light (like the warm light compact flourescent, energy saving bulbs) they were most visible. When I shot a street scene with the yellow sodium street lamps, it was not there! Go figure....

Again, I have to say this - streaking is minimized - it's still there, but not with such severity. Who knows? Maybe over some more time, it will lessen even more - or not. It's like voodoo..... God forbid it increases!

Nighthawk
07-20-2009, 05:15 PM
Nice! Now set that as your profile pic so I can stop looking at that freaking clown thing.

lol... I concur.

D.R. Gates
07-21-2009, 10:22 AM
Do you work for Canon? Every post you have on this site is in a 5DMKII vs X forum or in a forum discussing potential problems with a panasonic camera. every freaking one.

I hear ya, Ben. Too many whiners, none of whom know what they're talking about.

OPHERBA
07-21-2009, 10:41 AM
D.R. Gates

Great "contractive feedback" helping some of us solving a problem we have.


Johnnie

commanderspike
07-21-2009, 10:57 AM
What about hitting it with a hammer?

:)

upshot
07-22-2009, 10:20 AM
As a brand new GH1 owner (as of 4pm yesterday) I can vouch for the scary streaking (even plaid! vert and hor in some cases). I'm currently letting it run a 'burn in period' (fresh battery and card and let r go for as long as it will go). To see if that does the trick like others have stated.

I'll report back when I'm through.... I'm praying that it goes away because I was testing the camera last night with a switar 26/1.1 and the low light results were really impressive (banding ignored). IF the banding 'burns off' I'll be one very happy camper. If not.... It will severely limit how I can use this camera!

PhilD
07-22-2009, 03:04 PM
As a brand new GH1 owner (as of 4pm yesterday) I can vouch for the scary streaking (even plaid! vert and hor in some cases). I'm currently letting it run a 'burn in period' (fresh battery and card and let r go for as long as it will go). To see if that does the trick like others have stated.

Unless you have a different GH1 package in your country, in Canada it comes with a DC adapter that also serves as the charger so no need to use the battery

I think you had a G1 before right? Did it have streaking?

upshot
07-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Unless you have a different GH1 package in your country, in Canada it comes with a DC adapter that also serves as the charger so no need to use the battery

I think you had a G1 before right? Did it have streaking?

I was happy to see that additional adapter! Anyway, I have a couple of batteries so I ran it for 2 HRS. I think (after killing chicken) that it appears a lot better at 640 now. More testing will tell.

The G1 definitely has a different iso character. More characteristic grain and small blocking (which I'd actually prefer because noise filters recognize this). Although it's noise celing IMHO starts around 400-500 whereas the GH seems to be toward 800.

PhilD
07-22-2009, 08:58 PM
I was happy to see that additional adapter! Anyway, I have a couple of batteries so I ran it for 2 HRS. I think (after killing chicken) that it appears a lot better at 640 now. More testing will tell.

The G1 definitely has a different iso character. More characteristic grain and small blocking (which I'd actually prefer because noise filters recognize this). Although it's noise celing IMHO starts around 400-500 whereas the GH seems to be toward 800.

Two hours? I left my camera on in a low light situation for much longer and I haven't seen any difference.

Maybe the trick works in some situations but I wonder if it's only a temporary solution and if steaking will reappear the next day, after the camera cools down.

Uwe Lansing
07-24-2009, 07:24 AM
Two hours? I left my camera on in a low light situation for much longer and I haven't seen any difference.
...


Too bad. The never ending story? That´s probably a real deal breaker for a lot of people (myself included)...

commanderspike
07-24-2009, 07:32 AM
I like to shoot in some extreme low light situations with the GH1 and I have only noticed banding on a couple of shots. It certainly is no deal breaker if you overexpose slightly.

Barry_Green
07-24-2009, 07:40 AM
We've been shooting some exceptional footage all week with it. I sincerely doubt the banding is something that just "goes away" through some mystical process or some burn-in or whatever. I think it's just that as people learn how to use the camera, they *quit underexposing*.

Near as I can tell, if you have something 2 2/3 stops below "proper" exposure, you'll have bands in it. Done. End of story.

The bands actually can start faintly showing up at 2 stops under, and get more visible as you go further into underexposure. Get to 2 2/3 and they're easily seen. So -- don't do that.

Overexpose, no banding. Underexpose, get banding.

No two ways about it, no way to "fix" it, no changes are coming to save us from it, so -- monitor your exposure. Look for banding in the viewfinder. If you see it, change your exposure. If you don't see it, shoot the footage.

The footage, by the way, ranges from excellent to astonishing, when considering the price point of the product. We have an excellent, excellent director of photography (DVXUser's own Vincent Pascoe) and he is making this GH1 sing.

Uwe Lansing
07-24-2009, 08:22 AM
...
Near as I can tell, if you have something 2 2/3 stops below "proper" exposure, you'll have bands in it. Done. End of story.
.....
Overexpose, no banding. Underexpose, get banding.
....


Ok - but isn´t it always a mix of well exposed + underexposed areas in the most indoor lowlight shots? So there will be almost always some people (or whatever) in the shadow areas (underexposed). And they will get most likely the streaks in their face!?

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8094/sequenz03concertstreaks.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/sequenz03concertstreaks.jpg/)

nathankw
07-24-2009, 08:29 AM
But presumably even in a properly exposed picture (as a whole) there will be areas that are underexposed. For instance if I correctly expose the lit side of someones face, the shadow side could easily be a couple of stops under. So how do I avoid banding then?

I guess the solution is to slightly overexpose the picture as a whole whilst avoiding blowing out highlghts.

(Capice - you beat me to it!!)

upshot
07-25-2009, 06:30 AM
The more I use the GH1... I think it actually 'loves' detail. you can underexpose with no problems if there is lots o detail but large swaths involving a mix of blue/red channels (unfortunately like people's faces filling the screen) you really run the risk above iso 640.

Has anyone else noticed this too? The green channel is really smooth (in fact incredible even at iso1600)... but the red and blue channels when faced with a big blob or wall starts to show the banding. Like the example above... see how the hair is not the an issue (detail) but the cheek IS (big swath of subtle blue/red channel mix)

I agree with capice and nathankw's sentiment though... It's like simply 'not underexpose' is not an option you want some contrast or deep shadows. The interesting part is that beyond say 2 stops is not a problem! Very dark areas STAY amazingly noise and banding free even at iso1600.

Illya Friedman
07-25-2009, 12:45 PM
The more I use the GH1... I think it actually 'loves' detail. you can underexpose with no problems if there is lots o detail but large swaths involving a mix of blue/red channels (unfortunately like people's faces filling the screen) you really run the risk above iso 640.


Agreed. Mix lighting conditions are really very pleasing with the camera. Just remember to turn off AWB.



Has anyone else noticed this too? The green channel is really smooth (in fact incredible even at iso1600)... but the red and blue channels when faced with a big blob or wall starts to show the banding. Like the example above... see how the hair is not the an issue (detail) but the cheek IS (big swath of subtle blue/red channel mix)

Yes, green is the cleanest. Most likely from the extra sampling of green in the bayer pattern.



I agree with capice and nathankw's sentiment though... It's like simply 'not underexpose' is not an option you want some contrast or deep shadows. The interesting part is that beyond say 2 stops is not a problem! Very dark areas STAY amazingly noise and banding free even at iso1600.

I disagree. At lower ISOs, the camera is much, much cleaner.

As a general rule FPN is most noticeable when the entire shot is 'greatly' underexposed, but not completely black (at a higher ISO/gain level.) The good news is that most often people are not shooting interior scenes this way. It is not only possible to time indoor scenes shot on-exposure to have a low level of ambient light- it is generally a recommended practice (in many scenarios) when shooting film.

If anyone plans to show GH1 images on a really big screen, I recommend to test the ISOs first. Don't assume that anything above 400-500 ISO is going to be as clean or smooth as anything below. But of course I believe that the GH1's 400 ISO setting actually has the sensitivity of 2500 ISO, so your mileage may vary.

Bungess
07-25-2009, 01:27 PM
Just to ease people's fear of banding...it's not a problem for me.
I've had my Gh1 for a couple weeks.

Initially, I nearly wrote the cam off as a toy because of banding. Then I simply realized I was using it wrong...
Banding only shows up when you force the cam to do too much (too high iso, shutter, etc.)

Treat the Gh1 as you would any other camera. If the scene is too dark, light it up and don't worry about banding.

The cool thing is... sometimes, you can shoot at 1600 iso, and not have any banding at all.

dunca
07-26-2009, 02:03 AM
I get bad noise and banding under dim light with GH1 kit. I am glad to see that I am not the only one seeing this problem.

I did a comparison with Panasonic TZ5 video. I saw that GH1 kit's zoom video under dim light is worse than TZ5, which has a small lens and sensor and is older and 5 times cheaper than GH1 kit.

Example frames and original videos are available at http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1033&thread=32434953