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View Full Version : Panasonic hmc150 footage to dvd



Peter Lelievre
06-09-2009, 10:17 AM
The hmc 150 footage is great but when i capture my footage to my Mac
imovie 09 it still looks great but when i burn a dvd the Quality looks like
vhs.
What am i doing wrong?
Thanks
Peter L

dkamisat
06-09-2009, 03:21 PM
The DVD will look nowhere near as good as it looks on your computer at full resolution. The footage will look around the same as a DVX100 to DVD. It could be that the major difference in resolution is making you think that it looks VHS quality.

Peter Lelievre
06-09-2009, 04:23 PM
So how do video people supply a client a hd dvd with the quality i see
on my computer?
This always bothered me you spend all this money for equipment to get the best quality and then it gets compressed and loses quality buy the time you
deliver it to a customer.

Retrospective
06-10-2009, 09:31 AM
You can maintain the high quality of your footage as long as you use a good encoder like tmpeg encoder or even better the CCE encoder. Expensive but its worth it, movie studios usually use that for DVD distribution of their products.

Everts
06-10-2009, 09:40 AM
Yes the cce encoder basic is very good .

sewolla
06-14-2009, 03:00 PM
Never heard of the cce encoder, where can I see it? i get very good quality by watching my settings carefully, but access to a better one would sure be a nice deal.
SW

KenP
06-15-2009, 07:37 AM
Putting "cce encoder" into Google gave me http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/basic.html

CC is Cinama Craft and the basic version mentioned by Everts is $58

Regards,
Ken

averan
06-20-2009, 10:10 AM
i too have found it challenging to deliver quality ntsc dvd footage. its not just the resolution, but the color and contrast too.

the codec has lots to do with it i've found. adding a filter or too to increase contrast or shift gamma can go a long ways to restoring the beauty you edited in HD.

i wish had the final answer! keep experimenting with your exports. you may find that exporting straight to dvd from your HD project results in a better image...or you may find the opposite true, that downconverting from a master HD export is better.

David Saraceno
06-21-2009, 09:55 AM
I was disappointed with the encodes to SD from the HMC150 for SD DVDs.

It was really the only thing I was disappointed with.

My comparison was identically shot DVCProHD footage from a 170. The 150 footage somewhat fell apart in post.

Mark Williams
06-21-2009, 12:04 PM
David, could you be more specific as to what fell apart. I am looking at the HMC150 and HPX 170 for projects where final output is to SD DVD. The HMC150 looked to be my first choice until this thread came along. Do you think the avchd format is the problem or finding the ideal workflow for this format? Also, do you think shooting in dvcpro50 with the HPX170 would yield sharp, crisp and superior SD-DVD results compared to down sizing issues to deal as with dvcproHD?

Thanks,

vocare
06-21-2009, 07:40 PM
Hi David,

We just did 2 method of conversion ( SD dvd ) for HMC through mac system

FCP studio
( log and transfer through fcp, follow by compressor to change the resolution to SD Pro Res)

Toast
( Convert to dv quality )

By comparison, u could see the quality in fcp is so much better. As you can adjust the preset in fcp to be Pro Res but for toast is only DV Pal. Hence i suspect the conversion is really important as well

Allen Ellis
06-23-2009, 09:21 AM
Yeah... I can't imagine why any HD-capable camera wouldn't produce jaw-dropping SD footage. My money's also on the conversion route - it could well be "ruined" in that phase.

David Saraceno
06-23-2009, 12:34 PM
Yeah... I can't imagine why any HD-capable camera wouldn't produce jaw-dropping SD footage. My money's also on the conversion route - it could well be "ruined" in that phase.

I think you may be missing what I am saying and comparing.

We shot identical footage with the 150 and the 170.

We encoded the same way.

The SD DVD footage from the 170 looked qualitatively better than the 150.

All things being equal, the 150 to SD DVD broke up more than the DVCProHD footage from the 170.

I tried seven alternative workflows for the 150, and nothing improved on this conclusion.

I've been doing desktop DVDs for about 10 years now with thousands of replicated DVDs.

We have used in the past everything from procoder on a PC, to BitVice, Compressor, Sorenson, Adobe Media Encoder and CC.

Allen Ellis
06-23-2009, 01:53 PM
Wow - I didn't realize, sorry.

It just seems odd because I understand the 150 and 170 use essentially the same imaging sensors, and I've also heard AVCHD is supposedly a "better" compression algorithm than DVCPRO HD.

ilauzirika
06-23-2009, 04:00 PM
I think you may be missing what I am saying and comparing.

We shot identical footage with the 150 and the 170.

We encoded the same way.

The SD DVD footage from the 170 looked qualitatively better than the 150.

All things being equal, the 150 to SD DVD broke up more than the DVCProHD footage from the 170.

I tried seven alternative workflows for the 150, and nothing improved on this conclusion.

I've been doing desktop DVDs for about 10 years now with thousands of replicated DVDs.

We have used in the past everything from procoder on a PC, to BitVice, Compressor, Sorenson, Adobe Media Encoder and CC.


one interesting thing to try would be doing a live capture with the blackmagic to dvchd pro to see if the problem is in the avchd codec or the camera itself...But as of now I don't know of anyone that has a hpx170 a hmc and a blackmagic (and of course time)....

sewolla
06-23-2009, 09:03 PM
FWIW, I do get very good results from the HMC150 when going to SD DVD production. My workflow to do so is pretty simple, maybe too much so.
I have no 170 to compare output with, but I do have an XHA1. They are fairly close, but 150 is better.

I first transcode files using the Main Concept transcoder from Panny.
Next, edit in Adobe Premiere CS3.
Out put to Adobe Media Encoder.
Select "Widescreen Progressive High Quality" setting.
Under video tab in Encoder, slide all the way to "5" for max quality.
Under "Multiplexer" select DVD.
Burn the MPEG file, and presto--pretty decent quality.

Hope this helps

Barry_Green
06-23-2009, 09:36 PM
and I've also heard AVCHD is supposedly a "better" compression algorithm than DVCPRO HD.
I wouldn't say that. AVCHD is 4:2:0 and long-GoP. DVCPRO-HD is 4:2:2 and intraframe.

MadHMC150
06-24-2009, 07:31 AM
I wouldn't say that. AVCHD is 4:2:0 and long-GoP. DVCPRO-HD is 4:2:2 and intraframe.


I guess we get that idea from pannys HMC150 DVD and website.

"What is the main difference between AVCHD vs. HDV?
AVCHD offers a number of significant benefits over the HDV format.
Better Compression. AVCHD utilizes MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) compression, which is far more efficient than the much older MPEG 2 (used by HDV) compression. All new compression refinements are occurring at the MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) level. This means increased image quality moving forward. Development of the older MPEG-2 format has ceased. Compression is the name of the game in HD. AVCHD uses future-forward compression. HDV does not."

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/papers/AVC_HDpaper.pdf

I'm not exactly sure the difference of HDV and DVCPRO-HD

Barry_Green
06-24-2009, 09:29 AM
AVCHD stomps HDV, yes. But then again so does DVCPRO-HD.

HDV is used in $300 to $6,000 prosumer camcorders. DVCPRO-HD is used in the VariCam, the HPX2000, HPX3000, HPX3700, etc. (It's also used in the HPX170/HVX200A range, yes, but it extends way higher up the line than HDV does in any other manufacturer's range).

HDV is limited to 15% of a program's acquistion and isn't allowed for ANY editing or mastering at Discovery HD, whereas DVCPRO-HD is accepted for unlimited acqusition, editing, and final delivery.

DVCPRO-HD is Panasonic's equivalent to HDCAM. Sony has many formats that they consider lower quality than HDCAM. HDV is the lowest-quality HD recording format ever produced. Formats that Sony ranks inbetween HDCAM and HDV would include AVCHD, XDCAM-HD, and XDCAM-EX.

DVCPRO-HD is about as good as it gets in common use in the HD world. To get better than DVCPRO-HD, you'd have to go to HDCAM-SR or HD-D5.

David Saraceno
06-24-2009, 09:53 AM
Hey guys:

I'm not saying the 150 footage wasn't good; it was.

However, we shot footage side by side 150 and 170 with the same settings, scene files (close) of the same subject.

Then we encoded each to SD DVD with the same settings.

The 170 look better in the details.

My guess is that AVCHD breaks up more in this process due to its original compression at aquisition than DVCProHD.

I love the video, but when you deliver to SD DVD so often, we had to look at the best tool for the job that we could afford.

Great cam. Love it. Playing the SDHC in our Panasonic blu ray looked fabulous.

I just wish we could have maintained that look when going to SD DVD.

Mark Williams
06-24-2009, 12:19 PM
David, thanks for clarifying. Since I mostly do SD DVD's your comments and critical eye is very helpful. I think the dilemma for folks is the two cameras (HMC150 and HPX170) share a lot of features and components but are $1,500 apart in price.

Allen Ellis
06-24-2009, 12:59 PM
AVCHD stomps HDV, yes. But then again so does DVCPRO-HD.

HDV is used in $300 to $6,000 prosumer camcorders. DVCPRO-HD is used in the VariCam, the HPX2000, HPX3000, HPX3700, etc. (It's also used in the HPX170/HVX200A range, yes, but it extends way higher up the line than HDV does in any other manufacturer's range).

HDV is limited to 15% of a program's acquistion and isn't allowed for ANY editing or mastering at Discovery HD, whereas DVCPRO-HD is accepted for unlimited acqusition, editing, and final delivery.

DVCPRO-HD is Panasonic's equivalent to HDCAM. Sony has many formats that they consider lower quality than HDCAM. HDV is the lowest-quality HD recording format ever produced. Formats that Sony ranks inbetween HDCAM and HDV would include AVCHD, XDCAM-HD, and XDCAM-EX.

DVCPRO-HD is about as good as it gets in common use in the HD world. To get better than DVCPRO-HD, you'd have to go to HDCAM-SR or HD-D5.

Barry,

Thanks for explaining - good to know DVCPRO-HD is such a widely accepted format :).

David Saraceno
06-24-2009, 01:04 PM
DVCPRO-HD is about as good as it gets in common use in the HD world. To get better than DVCPRO-HD, you'd have to go to HDCAM-SR or HD-D5.

Or perhaps AVCIntra 100

Barry_Green
06-24-2009, 04:21 PM
DOH! David S. hands me my own backside. :thumbsup:

vocare
06-28-2009, 08:00 AM
Hi all,

understand that there are various methods to edit hmc footage to sd dvd.
whats is the fastest method to edit and burn into sd footage?

David Saraceno
06-28-2009, 08:58 AM
What OS and computer and NLE do you have?

vocare
07-09-2009, 09:52 AM
Mac osx 10.5.7, FCP 6.0.6. looking for fastest workflow for project on the day itself.
currently we are converting to sd resolution, before we start to edit in sd sequence.

David Saraceno
07-10-2009, 09:29 AM
CompressHD from Matrox

vocare
07-14-2009, 07:56 AM
Thanks for the tips. Really appreciate it. What if you are working on macbook pro ?

David Saraceno
07-14-2009, 09:08 AM
There is no hardware acceleration at all.

However, BitVice 2.7 is a pretty fast encoder.

PM me and I can give you a code for 10% off the price if you purchase.

There is a demo version as well.

http://www.innobits.com/bitvice.html

You can get some pretty fast encodes and it will reduce HD footage to SD faster than Compressor.

Again, if you're interested PM me for the discount code.

niugnep
07-14-2009, 07:00 PM
I really don't have anything relevant to add to the discussion, I just wanted to say, thanks. I'm really enjoying all of the information I'm getting from reading this discussion.

KeithAndrews.TV
07-17-2009, 07:34 AM
David S.

You never mentioned whether, or not you transcoded the AVCCAM footage, or imported it natively into an NLE like Premiere CS4. Obviously transcoding the AVCCAM footage would result in some quality degradation even before you began the MPEG-2 encoding.

vocare
07-22-2009, 10:02 AM
Try using toast 10 to convert the file to SD 10bit uncompress sd for editing . at least i skip the process of log and transfer for fcp .

VLance52
08-13-2009, 03:41 PM
Would Cineform Neo Scene help with any of this? It upscales to 4:2:2, my final product is to SD DVD as well. Working with iMovie 09 until I can afford FCP.